/jp/ - Otaku Culture

>>25617799
Because they think people don't want translation but want a localization. It's fucked up yes.

>>25617799
Because no one cares, you're not going to get paid more if you do a better job, and the end audience will just google translate it and be happy with that if you take too long.

>>25617799
It's a Japanese translator though, not American.
The game is originally in Japanese.

>>25617799
Is this an edit or did the game actually say that in the original game?

>>25617799
Japanese jokes rely on kanji puns and other language related things. You literally can't translate them without looking like that autist who tries to explain his jokes.
t. dabbled in fantranslation and it's a fucking nightmare

>>25617799
Because, ultimately, you aren’t supposed to consume translated content in the first place

>>25617799
>>25617819
>>25617872
>itt retards who have literally never studied another language nevermind attempted to translate something shitpost about how translation ought to be done

>>25624492
RIP Miko. Rona claiming another victim.

>>25624492
go back to plebbit, scum

>>25624492
Who are you quoting?

>>25624492
French and english, most translation isn't up to the translator's discretion when comparing an english book to the french translated version. It's mostly liberal, with changes only when it doesn't make sense for the translation to be literal.
Donc non, tu ne sais vraiment pas de quoi tu parles retardé

>>25627663
>>25624492
Is this actually in the game though?

>>25617799
It's the philosophy of removing "cultural odor" in order to please the general populace instead of the artistically inclined due to profit motive. This is why certain people say that freedom of expression cannot thrive under capitalism.
Even Tako to Ama was localized like this.

>>25624492
t. I studied a language for a week so now i can be a cunt about it

>>25628020
>t. retard
Trying to make a joke about race in English won't make any fucking sense in Japanese nor will there even be a direct translation that won't ruin the joke for being so specific

>>25628239
Your argument doesn't make any fucking sense in English or Japanese. Who said anything about race?
Tako to Ama was changed to "Dream of the Fisherman's Wife" to a) change the controversial octopus sex to a fantasy & b) to add an element of cuckoldry because white people can't get enough of it for some damn reason. It's like "fuck my wife" 24/7 with you people. How's that for race?

>>25628239
Depends on the joke.

>>25628279
How fucking shallow can you get holy shit
I'm making a fucking point that a joke, a proverb, a fucking name's meaning makes no fucking sense in a culture's language that has nothing to do with it you retard
I fucking dare you right fucking now to translate 布団が吹っ飛んだ。in English while also explaining to them what a fucking futon is in the first place without sounding like a complete retard, but I fucking doubt you can do that because you already are a complete fucking retard

>>25624492
You're a big dummy and you have to go back to your general.

Translators are just massively lazy and illiterate in their native and second language tongue as they don't put an effort to research a similar idiom or phrase to translate in a given language to another.

t. Mexican who is perfectly able to translate "vergüenza ajena," words that always trigger the dumb ESL and SSL Ch*canos

>>25628333
>in English while also explaining to them what a fucking futon is in the first place without sounding like a complete retard
They should know what a futon is. Are all Americans that fucking uneducated?

>>25617819
>localization
localisation*, and it's part of translating media. You dumb American subhuman.

>>25628404
Both are legitimate you absolute crowfag. Please keep you shitposts to >>>/b/

>>25628333
The problem is you gave a shit example and the response from the guy was warranted. Youre a retard for being mad at the guy for being mad at you giving a retarded example.

>>25628382
Go back to hispachan, underaged faggot.

>>25628403
>>25628419
Neither of you still managed to translate it
Tell me when you have, and make sure it's as funny as it's supposed to be in Japanese

>>25628424
>underaged faggot
>hispachan
Kek, such a lack of self-awareness, pocho-kun.

An accurate, 1-to-1 translation from Japanese to English is impossible. The two languages just don't work like that. A degree of localization is absolutely necessary, otherwise you might as well just run the text through Google Translate and call it a day.

>>25628469
>I can't do it, therefore NO ONE CAN DO IT! ONLY ME!
You narcissistic hipster sacks of shit make me sick.

>>25628516
It's possible but not practical. There's a reason the term "hard translation" exists.

>>25628333
*POMF*

>>25628560
>Capitalism! It's all capitalism's fault! Languages and language translations are flawless and anyone who says otherwise is a slave to money!
This was unironically your first post. Facing reality can be harsh, I know, but don't think for a second you know fucking anything about languages when you can't even translate a single phrase that, ring ring ring guess fucking what, you can't translate properly in English
You've wasted enough of my time, go back to sucking dick and maybe people will start giving a damn about you and the disappointment that is your reasoning ability
Goodnight

>>25628469
The fuck does that have anything to do with us calling you out on your initial post being a stupid one?

>>25628653
Oh, it's a stormfag. The race comment makes sense now. Remember: anti-racism does NOT equal anti-white!

>>25628653
No one will ever love you and you should kill yourself now. Find the tallest building you can and just jump.

>>25628469
Maybe we need to say it outright since in your infinite knowledge of japanese, you missed out on basic common sense in context. We never replied to you saying that puns being replaced is bad.

>>25628593
>hard translation
What do you mean?

>>25628727
The futon was futon'd (blown) away.

>>25628382
Spanish is closely related to English, both linguistically and culturally. There's a reason why Japanese is called moonspeak.

>>25628738
...go on.

>>25628772
..are you fucking retarded? You don't know what hard translation is? You absolute baby. You could have used a search engine.
>As it was understood and practised among Chinese and German translation theorists in the early decades of the twentieth century, hard translation is a method that incorporates translation in the form of exegesis, while preserving traces of the source language in the target language. Coined in 1929 by the Chinese critic, writer and translator Lu Xun amid the ferment stimulated by the May Fourth movement, hard translation (yingyi) is here considered alongside Walter Benjamin’s cognate and nearly contemporaneous arguments for translation in a context of linguistic incommensurability.

>>25628906
>You could have used a search engine.
I did. Got next to nothing. That's why I asked. I don't think this is a real term, anon, except for Miss Gould there.

>>25624492
1. name one game with such a shitty dajare
2. The audio explains the joke, or just print the romaji
3. I've done fanlations, and seriously calm your ego

>>25629028
well, you're wrong.

Doesn't this thread belong somewhere else?
It smells.

>>25629084
My mistake, except for Lu Xun. I'm not convinced.

>>25629174
based retard

>>25629100
>Doesn't this thread belong somewhere else?
Probably will be moved to /int/ soon or something.

>>25629218
Nah, just based.
Please realize that you don't score any smart guy points for acting like a term used by some century-dead Chinese guy and literally nobody else is common knowledge.

>>25629329
enjoy your ban

>>25628754
Kek. Why is it that japanese whove learned english and spanish say that Spanish is easier to pick up because its closer to Japanese than English. I wonder whos full of shit. The people whove gone through it or some anon.

>>25629667
>Spanish is easier to pick up because its closer to Japanese than English.
Said no one ever.

SEAnigger thread.

>>25630235
They probably talking about the pronounciation. Suggesting that Japanese and Spanish are related would be retarded

>>25630235
They're probably talking about the pronunciation which is easier to pickup for Japanese people. Suggesting that Spanish and Japanese are somehow related would be retarded or the wishful thinking of some spick weeb.

>>25624492
...says the obvious EOP posting EOPlive

Translation alters EVERYTHING on a fundamental level. These flashy localization choices draw the most attention, but if you actually look at translations you'll see a huge divide between Japanese and English on a fundamental level. If you actually prefer something that doesn't alter anything - you're fucked. Learn Japanese. If you don't, then you don't actually care about this as much as you think you do, and you're just being tripped up by surface level examples on a moral standpoint more than a practical standpoint.

>>25631187
It’s not even a moral standpoint
What the fuck is there to be all high and mighty about for reducing the quality of a product because you can’t be assed to learn Japanese while complaining about effort to keep it as fun?

>>25617799
That OP is a bad example seeing as sometimes the best choice is making something up when translating a joke. Otherwise, you need to explain the joke.

>>25624025
iirc in the game you can work as a translator. the dialogue is legit

>>25617799
>and not translate
A company pays you to translate their game. They know that some of the original script doesn't translate well, so everybody can agree that it would be best to modify it. They're making a product, not performing a service for you.

>>25631187
You're completely correct, doesn't matter though because the guys from the Hololive thread have already invaded this thread and will keep bumping it.

>>25628516
Nobody argues that some degree of freedom is necessary when translating things.
What becomes a problem is when localization team starts to write fanfics instead of translation. And it's a thing that happens very often too. Even OP's Persona 4 picrelated while overall has an okay localization has a fair share of fanfic shit.

Translate "itadakimasu" literally.

>>25641661
rub a dub thanks for the grub

>>25641661
Let's eat.

>>25624492
You can't even understand basic Japanese. Don't come here talking shit. Now go back to your general.

>>25641661
take it in, pal!

>>25629455
Pathetically cringe retard post, bro

>>25641661
Give us this day our daily bread.

>>25641661
I shall accept this (meal).

>>25617799
It's called localization. Literal translations don't work.

>>25647880
>comparing translations with translations in a thread talking about translations that stray away from its source material
Come on now

>>25641661
You don't need to translate that. It's like translating "lolicon". If you're watching something that mentions it, you already know what it means.

>>25617799
They don't know their audience. They blindly apply principles intended for translating things for mass audiences, so they assume that the readers won't understand any kind of "jargon" or niche knowledge. If something can't be translated easily they just make shit up because they imagine the reader to be average joe who'd rather get something incorrect that he understands than something correct that he doesn't.
In reality of course the consumers of "otaku" things in the west will know certain common terms and know a lot more about the context of the things they're consuming, so you don't need to hand-hold them like this.
Of course all of this is a spectrum but I've seen shit like "onee-sama" translated as "sissy", you can't defend this shit

>>25647966
Of course, you need to, you cretin. Translations of German movies don't keep the "Guten Appetit," nor do translations of French movies keep the "Bon appetit."

Stop acting like Japanese phrases are these magical phrases that shouldn't be translated. Yes, stuff gets lost in translation, but in 99% of cases, "Itadakimasu" only means that someone is about to dig into a meal.

>>25648004
As a side note, I think "onee-sama" might be one of the hardest things to translate because it encodes several things that you can't express in English very conscisely:
- having a separate word for older/younger sister
- (potentially) using the word "sister" for someone who is not related to you by blood
- encoding respect with honorifics

>>25647966
I always thought this was a dumb take. Expressing thanks for a meal is a known concept in every culture. It's ony of the easiest things to translate.

>>25648140
I would never keep words like "onee-sama", but I do think that it's okay for a Japanese conversation to sound slightly unnatural in English. No one expects a converation in Japanese to sound 100% natural in English.

>>25648140
Ojou(san/sama) is the hardest

>>25648140
The various versions of 4649 that are used every
5 minutes are up there too.

>>25648355
Do you think so? I think "young lady" covers it well. I've never felt that an important part of the meaning was lost by translating it that way.
>>25648383
I agree, also tough, but at least the characters' body language and tone of voice often goes a long way towards communicating what is meant. Probably harder in written works.

>>25648445
Translating "ojousan" to "young lady" is perfectly fine. In case of "ojousama", the pampered daughter from a rich family aspect gets lost.

>>25648493
I think ojousan already covers this, normal people don't get called "young lady". It's only a matter of degree. I also think that this is a case where it's fine if the word doesn't really cover the full meaning because if there's an ojousama character it will virtually always show in many other ways, I don't think you could really miss it.

>>25648521
No, you're right, there's always the context that fills in the clues. That's why this whole "can't be translated" is only true for certain works that are so ingrained in the culture and the language that they have to have translation notes for every sentence like some Shakespeare school book. Most modern popular works can be translated just fine.

>>25617799
jokes and wordplay doesn't really translate well, especially japanese. as long as they keep the artistic integrity and don't fuck up too bad, no real harm.

>>25648039
>nor do translations of French movies keep the "Bon appetit."
why? everyone knows what it means. if you're watching french cinema then maybe you should know about french culture.
The culturally ignorant can stick to dubs.

>>25624492
>vtuber watching faggot thinks hes superior because he just learned katakana and hiragana

>>25648795
>dubs
Isn’t that the exact same thing being talked about here? Translating words into a different culture and language?

>>25648445
>>25648493
>>25648521
So you would translate "this girl is an ojousama type" as "this girl is like a young lady"? How would you translate if ojou, youjo and shoujo were used in the same sentence?

>>25648684
No anon we need to all be very unreasonably angry about this

>>25649697
No, I would translate it as "this girl is sheltered" or something of the sort, depending on what is meant (could also be stuck-up or something like that). Context matters.

>>25648140
In Batman stories, Alfred refers to the guy as "Mister Wayne" in public, but "Master Bruce" while alone - an honorific normally used only with children, reflecting how Alfred cares for him almost like a son. I'm not sure how well this nuance translates into other languages.

I also wonder how the speech patterns of Ben Grimm (The Thing) from the Fantastic Four get handled. Do they make him talk like a banchou or something? For that matter, does Japanese Wolverine end his sentence in "babu"?

>>25649697
"princess" could work.

>>25617799
Ah yes, you're right, instead of replacing the joke that doesn't work in the language you're translating to for a joke in the same vein, you should just have Peter Griffin explain the joke instead, that way the artist's true intent of... Wanting people to laugh, gets across!!!!!

>>25647815
Friendly reminder the original writer of the work literally said he prefers the English version and this approved of this change, so using this example is actually mad dishonest.

>>25628333
Don't bother. Monolinguals just cannot comprehend that literal translation are not possible without basically writing a whole book on cultural and linguistic nuance.

>>25669383
>For that matter, does Japanese Wolverine end his sentence in "babu"?
There was a Wolverine anime some years ago and all I remember is the silly way they pronounced "wolverine" (like "woluburerine") and how "Logan" sounded like "Rogan."

>>25628593
It's not possible unless you make book-length footnotes.

>>25628404
It's spelled with a z you third world faggot.

>>25641661
Jubilate Deo omnis terra

>>25628020
You're trying to say something profound but fail miserably, because you're implying it's something new
While in reality, the conflict between proponents of dynamic and of formal equivalence is much older

Thread was doomed from the start, because most Americans, due to an insidious disease known as "Marvel Brain Rot", are only capable of thinking in binaries. Good/bad, right/wrong, localization/literal translation. People have taken sides, and will now keep (correctly) calling each other retarded until bump limit.

Meanwhile, a sensible position would be something like this:
1) As a general rule, try to keep as close to the original as possible while maintaining decent writing style. Don't substitute cultural references just because you feel like it. The audience can generally handle the fact that foreign food, clothes and such exist.
2) If you run across some joke or reference that's impossible to translate, substitute it for a localized one, as long as the overall meaning is preserved reasonably well.
3) If you actually can't do it without losing the meaning, insert a note explaining it. If it can't be done, for example if it's a movie or something and you're doing a dub, then you've probably picked a wrong thing to localize this way.

>>25670462
Not even going to read your post.
I already know it's wrong.

>>25670485
Damn, foiled again.

>>25670501
You foiled yourself by posting bullshit in an attempt to pass it as fact.

>>25639748
seconding this

>>25628382
>"vergüenza ajena,"
Secondhand embarrassment? That really doesn't seem like such a hard concept to translate.

>>25649160
The ironic thing is vtuberfags actually do know nip, they were translating a ton of stuff even outside of directly vtuber-related stuff and half of the posts were people watching zatsudans and discussing them for a time, around a year and longer ago.

Then it got Azur Lane'd and twitter'd and that was the end of that.

>>25670088
It's pronounced "u-u-ru-ba-ri-n".

>>25674526
It is vicarious embarrassment as secondhand always implies something that was used to the dumb ESL, and the word vicarious does not have any other definition that would make it have a double meaning.
It isn't hard to translate, but it used (maybe still) to be meme'd in San Diego Ch*cANO related stuff as those retards with no culture nor literacy always say it was an impossible word to translate from Spanish to English.

If only you knew how much I hate second generation immigrants.
>>25628754
True that.

I wanted to say something about why not use underused English words and/or create new words worthy of usage for Japanese to English translation, but I have a hunch I was going to say something very stupid.

>>25617799
if you haven't learned japanese yet you truly cannot be helped
translations are lost and 100% of the time ruin the original work
if you don't understand this or accept this you are deluded and coping

>>25695576
I've encountered several work where the english tl was actually better than the original. For example i recently played the undub of Bravely Default and while the english subtitles are much more expansive than the cut and dry japanese voiced dialogues, they make for better skits most of the time.

>>25670157
>America
>Not a third world shithole

>>25628333
Who the fuck needs to translate it and explain it when you can just show a video of shota baring their asses while screaming “futon futtonda”?

>>25648140
I raise you 坊っちゃん
And don't give me that "young master" stuff because if the character isn't a subordinate you're kinda fucked

>>25629667
Spic jibber has some SOV constructions. That’s the difference.

>>25674526
Aka cringe

>>25669383
>>25695915
坊っちゃん is how "Master Bruce" should be translated into Japanese.

>>25695915
Depending on context
>"Born with a silver spoon in his mouth"
>"Fop"

>>25695915
I've literally only ever heard gay butlers and old butlers say this

Hey fags, if you don't like localizations learn the original language, simple as.
Just because you know some Japanese from anime is not gonna cut it.

>>25647934
The point is one set of translations at least tries to maintain the original idea and another set of translations brazenly replaces the dialogue with what the translator felt like saying.

>>25719078
>if you don't like localizations learn the original language, simple as.
I wonder if nips ever feel the same way. Their title changes sucks, I'm a little worried as to what is lost in translation.

>>25722228
>tries to maintain the original idea and another set of translations brazenly replaces the dialogue with what the translator felt like saying
If two translators are translating a pun about, I dunno, a fucking train or something, and one localizes it and one doesn't, translator A preserves the literal meaning but fails the atmosphere (because reading a big-ass TL note explaining why something is funny is never actually funny) and translator B preserves the atmosphere but fails the literal meaning (the character said something funny about a train)meaning.

If you are so militantly up-in-arms about A being better than B you should in fact just learn Japanese.

>>25722467
Yes linguistic puns are where it becomes most obvious that you can't literally translate everything and get the idea/joke across. No you don't get to fall back on that fact to excuse rewriting whatever scene you feel like to insert a message that wasn't in the original story. Anyway here's an example of a running gag pun that I think the translator handled well.

>>25722797

>>25722797
The first example you posted is literally cherrypicking though

>>25719078
Are textbooks a good way to learn Japanese from start to finish?
I don't care about their costs if so nor how time consuming if effective since I am starting to get nervous about a hunch of mine that the official translators of my waifu's manga are going todrop it soon, or very soon.

pic subtly related

>>25730458
Depends on the textbook’s quality, what you’re looking for in it, and how much concentration you put into it
A good grammar book (or even just materials you can find online), a lot of flashcards and sentence flashcards for vocabulary, understanding radicals (KanjiAlive has all of them and you can understand how it works with JapanesePod101’s youtube playlist on them) but you can skip radicals if you’re not interested in a long term boost and just want to read your manga, and lastly you’ll need some kanji flashcards
You’ll actually save a lot of time, effort, and money if you focus studying on how to learn Japanese in the first place properly in the beginning and look for free materials you could use from the internet once you’re ready

>>25628403
A. There's more than americans who play the game in english, you butthurt eurofaggot
B.You're fucking stupid if you think futons are common knowledge in the west. It only works if you are japanese, you dumb weeb

>>25641661
Bone Apple Tea

>>25670462
Trash talking Americans like you id is the hallmark of faggotry

>>25617799
Only American? I guess every single country has unprofessional "translators" who are too lazy to search in the dictionary and prefer to quickly ad-lib something.

>Russian translation of Watch Dogs is a complete disaster

>>25628403
>They should know what a futon is.
Wrong, anon. Not everyone who read Japanese authors is somehow educated in some degree of Japanese culture. For example, Murakami is popular within normalfaggots who usually know Japanese culture on the level of "sushi-geisha-honda-samurai".

>>25733268
>>25732553
most people translating japanese weeb shit aren't translating for normalfaggots

that said the general impression of a futon isn't even the same thing in english as it is in japanese, western futons look like pic related

>>25628333
The futon flew tonfa.

You shouldn't need to explain what a fucking futon is, it's a fucking loanword in English. What's next, are you going to say "karaoke" is untranslatable?

>>25732408
Thank you very much for your reply, anon!
I will screencap this post and save it in all my devices since my studies have become easier and I think I will begin studying very soon!
And also I will definitely get into radicals et al. since my waifu's manga is seinen so there are those jokes and funny references that are most often lost in translation.

Thanks!

>>25733005
Something something nobody speaks vodka or tequila here something American website something.

>>25748496
For grammar, I personally used Tae Kim’s Guide (found in the daily Japanese Thread’s OP) and some supplementary materials in YouTube (again, I’ll recommend JapanesePod101 especially for their <1 hour lesson on particles as well as other things such as their video on polite form (it’s titled something in the lines of 3 classes of verbs))
Matt vs. Japan, while he doesn’t exactly teach you anything about Japanese, he might be able to give you some ideas on gaps you might need to fill (like his video on why understanding what all the words mean isn’t enough to understand a sentence), but he also gets shit on for some of his unconventional approaches like “MIA” (watch his videos on it if you’re curious and make your own assessment but just know it’s not exactly supported by a lot of people)
There’s 2 volumes of grammar books called Genki I and Genki II which is used by a lot of beginners to get to N5 and N4 respectively, but I didn’t use them (I still plan to read it soon though)
Lastly, I’ve been recommended to watch 日本語の森 in YouTube for their advanced grammar lessons (N3-N1) but I’m still working on Kanji and Vocabulary right now so I haven’t checked out their videos yet (they speak straight Japanese if I’m not mistaken)
Good luck, Anon. I hope your waifu’s manga gets a fulfilling ending

>>25722797
this reads like total shit
second one is slightly better

Notice how it's "a joke you don't understand", not "a joke that won't translate well".

Translate it weebs.

>>25750265
Translate the idea of >>25641661 well
Hint: "I'll eat" or anything similar to it is not a proper translation

>>25750911
>Translate the idea of >>25641661 well
[inaudible]

>>25750911
>Hint: "I'll eat" or anything similar to it is not a proper translation
A common formula for gratitude before eating a meal translated with a common formula for gratitude before eating a meal. It's a proper sense-to-sense translation, but if English translation stumbles over itadakimasu so hard I guess you either don't say anything, or only ever pray if you do.
Bon appetit is a good and possibly the only good translation in French for itadakimasu in that context. That in other contexts it means "I receive it" in a way that isn't translateable as "bon appetit" doesn't matter because this is not the other contexts.

>>25617799
Translation should be:
A: Don't change the meaning or straight up make up shit
B: Don't change the tone of how it's being said
C: If it's a language specific expression either find something that comes as close as possible or add a note depending on medium (can't have them in games unless you want a fucking encyclopedia)
D: Don't remove cultural reference, if you're playing/watching/reading japanese stuff, you're gonna learn stuff about japanese stuff. If you're gonna get pissy because there's idk, a Kamen Rider reference you don't understand, maybe you shouldn't be playing foreign games.
1:1 sentences is not what people want obviously because that'd make no fucking sense in english, just keep it as close to the original if you can.

>>25779142
>B: Don't change the tone of how it's being said
But if someone's being casual and flippant, people will complain that a casual and flippant translation is taking too many liberties, and insist that it have a clinical tone instead.

>>25779225
What?
If a character is being casual and flippant, then the translation should give him a casual and flippant tone.
Show me one example of someone complaining about this.

くそスレ

>>25780691
違う

>>25780691
お前は大きな奴んだ

>/jp/
４channelの失笑物

>>25627663
>retardé
It's "attardé" in French

>>25733575
The futon is the mattress.
The rest is just a frame.

if you want a 1:1 translation then learn Japanese you EOPs

1:1 from JP to ENG is incredibly stilted and would be full of puns and nuances that can't be translated directly

>>25786111
>learned Japanese so that the game wouldn't call me an imbecile

>>25786111
Will you stop acting like legitimate issues with bad translators making shit up is the same as wanting a 1:1 literal translation?

>>25624492
>RUB A DUB DUB THANKS FOR THE GRUB

>>25786111
People like you are so tiring. There's a difference between translating every word as if you put them individually in Google Translate and translating "Itadakimasu" as "Rub-a-dub-dub thanks for the grub" or adding jokes when the original is a plain sentence.
Your audience does not want to read your fanfiction, they want to have an experience as close as possible to the original without having to learn another language. Yes, translations never exactly match the original, but that doesn't mean you should go around making shit up.
I lost all hope in Japanese-English translators, so I'm making an effort to actually learn the damn language, but it's not a feasible investment for a large number of people. "Just learn Japanese" is not a valid argument for pissing all over them.

>>25815164
?

>>25815294
Talk to me when you actually have experience making whatever you consider “good” translations with Japanese humor comedies

>>25624025
In game says this when you do a route to translate manga for cash.
>>25617799
Because it's called localizing the joke, there are probably 5 people in the thread who understand you have to adlib because some shit just doesn't make sense.
>make up something
Paraphrase it and just go with something like it
>literal translation
probably no one wants that, it's like if you study pre ww2 japanese and look at what the direct translation for a subway is, it's fucking retarded.

Also if you care that much just play the sub, o wait you can't.

>>25817170
not that anon but translating Japanese to english sucks, you're almost better off doing this
>read, listen, whatever thing says, understand it
>Think the most logical way to put it into english
tl;dr literal translations take less skill than attempting to make japanese and english work together without borrow words.

>>25815294
ah it's people like you who I fucking hate meeting in akihabara, I had some friend try and do literally figurine glue translation only to fuck it all up. Ended up buying 6 types of glue, none of them for figures. Walked up and was like "Figure. Glue. Gomen" got it in like 2 seconds. Same when we went to a restaurant and tried to order shit in Japanese, just went and said the number and used my hands to confirm Large it. Dude spent like 3 minutes trying to order a fucking ramen bowl because he needed to try and do everything literally

>>25817522
Don't bother arguing with anons spent too many comikets with "n1's and n2's" who totally knew japanese but got lost at use of a train ticket. People who need to rely on subs get what they get, unhappy? Learn japanese and figure it out yourself, but that's prob too much effort

>>25818004
Share some of your translations so we can make fun of them.

>>25818082
What do you mean like times I've had to help forgeiners who were totally deep in japanese they got an Nwhatever, or Japanese to english 1:1 shit from a manga. Not doing the latter since having a beer or two on my day off

>>25818126
I mean some of the wonderfully localized translations you must have done to be so knowledgeable about the topic.

>>25818185
>I mean some of the wonderfully localized translations you must have done to be so knowledgeable about the topic.
Why would I bother translating manga? I buy it for myself lol. I work in Japan off and on, so I don't need to make extra cash off translations. What I do need to do is look at something for work, figure out what to say and deal with the situation for people who don't even know google maps will help them in japan.

IDK why you would need to translate doujinshi unless you are riding on neetbux

>>25818246
So you're saying you don't know anything about translating fiction?

>>25818285
Nah what I am saying is basically this post, this guy >>25779142 basically has it down aside from his D part which I'd argue can be a bit of a grey area. Dunno when the last time you went to comiket reitaisai jump festa or something was but eh, dunno.

>So you're saying you don't know anything about translating fiction?
The fuck does this mean, paraphrasing basically is taking fact and understanding another language through fiction of a native language, then regurgitating it into a fact. You have to understand some level of fiction to be able to translate properly.

Sorry I may have not caught it, when's the last time you were in Japan(work/pleasure)?

>>25818367
You also have to understand how to translate, which is a completely separate skill from simply understanding a language. I've never been to Japan and I don't know why you're so set on bringing it up as if it has anything to do with the topic at hand. You can get around Japan with zero understanding of Japanese and people do just that all the time.

>>25817522
>>25818004
I don't get what's controversial about my statement. Turning "Itadakimasu" into a joke just for giggles is not a good translation. I mentioned I'm making an effort to learn Japanese. I've started recently, since I have an interest in the language.
I don't have any experience with professional translation, but I did learn English on my own. It isn't my native language. I did translate English text for relatives sometimes, and I didn't turn a simple "Thank You" into "I appreciate it, cunt"

>>25818435
>You also have to understand how to translate, which is a completely separate skill from simply understanding a language
Yeah which is literally what I've been sayin. you need to know when to change shit around or keeping it the same, doing a black and while for Japanese to anything is fucking stupid. Since hell even the modern Japanese language mixes around depending on situational shit. I am saying you need to actually understand the language, figure out what works to be translates and doesn't, then figure out the best possible course for putting it into <language> usually english that makes it understandable. Direct translations don't work most the time in modern day, and simply just make you sound like a grade schooler should you do that. Translating and 'localizing it' is fine so long as you don't go TL: OISHI means RUBA DUB DUB levels of full retard.

>I've never been to Japan and I don't know why you're so set on bringing it up as if it has anything to do with the topic at hand
Because it's kinda important to know once you've lived or work there lang, borrow words, how little it matters to speak properly, and a ton of other shit. You probably think the Barbershop arc in Gintama is boring.

>You can get around Japan with zero understanding of Japanese and people do just that all the time.
Yeah true in most places, would say true for the shin osaka route same with hokkaido. So long as you plan it all out, but some of my favorite towns no one speaks english when I go there. Places off the normal path can dip quite quickly and getting around is going to be shit if you don't know what places to ask for, pic related rush hour in Hida-osaka. Love fishing up there but man don't expect to run into anyone under 30

>>25818545
Then I think you've misunderstood something. Almost no one means a literal "literal translation" any more. People use the term to refer to anything less than a rewrite. Because the people who do rewrites obviously don't call them rewrites. They call them liberal translations or localizations.

>>25818533
>I mentioned I'm making an effort to learn Japanese. I've started recently, since I have an interest in the language.
Your post came off as SUPER fucking know it all which a lot of people learning Japanese tend to do. The way you defended it also didn't help much, it's all good. Just understand there are quite a lot of people out there who know Japanese and don't translate because they got jobs.

> I mentioned I'm making an effort to learn Japanese. I've started recently, since I have an interest in the language.
Yeah and I think N5 to 1 structure is fine as a framework just don't use it as a way to prove you know and can do all things japanese. The reason a lot of localizations are odd is because people translating just use it as common slang. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwPf27SJij0 shit like this is stupid I agree, but there is a level that is hard to explain unless you been there and know it like that.


Again back to my post at >>25818004
If you know japanese fluently it's pretty easy to get the ad lib's, localization takes more practice. I am learning swedish form my next position and realize yeah lot of shit there is that what I study does not equate to what people talk or act like.

Sorry if I came off harsh, just met so many know it all's in japan that fucking dealing with someone who wants to spend 8 minutes at carls jr trying to order a burger rather than stating the number + S/M/L annoys me. I've been to Tokyo specifically so much the hollywood glasses wore off. If you ever need help planning how to go to japan, >>>/trv/ is a good resource in specific threads

>>25818533
I’m not saying that sort of translation is good, I’m saying you’re a fucking retard who deserves those kinds of translations because you expect people to translate those kinds of things for you freely with all the time and effort needed to do it
“Rub a dub dub, thanks for the grub” is what the translators want? In all likelihood you’re reading a free-access TL for a comedy manga, that doesn’t change the content, tone, or any sort of cultural reference (because, again, that sort of thing doesn’t exist in the English language in the first place). You’re a fucking retard for even considering changing “Thank you” into “I appreciate it, cunt” is anywhere near the same level of changing “Itadakimasu” into “Rub a dub dub, thanks for the grub”
Think you’re supposed to be better? Go for it, be the fucking change you want to see instead of the bitchboy who wants everyone else to bow down to him even when the current translators don’t even expect getting jackfuckingshit from you

>>25818684
Fair enough I am just talking from exp, I didn't mean to come off that way. It's just when I go to comiket or some shit that things I get asked for is insane by people who never left their home country then need to tell me how japan is.
>Because the people who do rewrites obviously don't call them rewrites.
>They call them liberal translations or localizations.
Yeah I get this but at the same time I am unsure as to why people get so pissed about this shit. Every fucking time at the washington across from TGS chinese are scanning in every fuckin shit in native language. To me it's like the option exists, yeah the english translation will never be exactly 100% to your liking but like come on man give me a fuckin break. You know how hard it is to just find some shit, watch and read "AHHH MY WOMB IS OPENING" for the 300th time, yeah no thanks.

What people don't get here is the matter of perspective. I get where you are coming from, but fucking holy shit actually going buying those doujins, cutting them, scanning them with something with good DPI, then typesetting, and publishing it for like 30 bucks? come on dude, there is a lot that goes into translations for first hits and not talking about going to animate or toradora's 100 yen bargin bin shit

>>25818721
>because you expect people to translate those kinds of things for you freely
>freely
Yeah, it's a good thing paid translators would never do something like that.

>>25818685
I apologize if I came off as arrogant, anon. It truly wasn't my intention.
I have to agree with >>25818684. Since you already understand the language, I assume you wouldn't bother with English translations of Japanese works. There was a game years ago that the translator said "In the original it was just normal boring dialogue, so I made it better". The result was completely different from the original, it came out as a comedy when that wasn't the intention of the scene at all.
Thanks for the tips, anon. Don't worry, I can understand that it would be tiring dealing with people like that.
>>25818721
>all likelihood you’re reading a free-access TL for a comedy manga
I would not complain if that was the case. The specific case I was talking about was on the G-senjou no Maou Steam release. They're charging for it.

>>25818813
Not going to defend this, but come on anon. You do realize how many games need translations and sometimes budgets just suck besides there are also other things like rating systems for games the publisher has to meet.

Again, not defending the translation but please look at the perspective of it.

>>25818367
If you're consuming weeb media and you somehow don't know what comiket or jump festa is then you should probably fucking learn.

>>25818813

>>25818828
No worries anon, I hope you make it to Japan one day once this bullshit is all over. If you end up going to anything at TGS, Toyosu sation is the one to aim for, less crowded nice walk and shit. Met some cool boobbobo cosplayers that way.
>There was a game years ago that the translator said "In the original it was just normal boring dialogue, so I made it better".
I agree this kinda sucks but there is an understanding of some dude is doing this day in day out and is like "oh kanji san knocked him out, eh alright how about WOW KANJI CLEANED HIS CLOCK! HOME RUN!" when you just are needing spice.

Unsure your native language, I only know german, spanish, japanese, russian, and some swedish. Just imagine if you needed to explain to me a dish in english from your native language of what was in it without doing google translate day in and day out.

>>25818911
I met up with a few people from here for jump festa 2019 and didn't know it existed or how to get there. I just got lost walked around as cirno till I found it and just took pictures with locals who wanted selfies and shit. okay/10 time

>>25818840
These aren't mistakes made by a cheap translator with too much work to do. They're intentional changes made to "improve" the work, when there was nothing to justify those changes in the original.

>>25818973
Not goin to lie, really love the my pooper line

>>25818937
>I hope you make it to Japan one day
Likewise. Thanks for the recommendation.
My biggest problem is with professionally translated work. If a fan translator inserts a meme here and there in a comedic scene it doesn't really bother me, but when you expect me to spend money the translation should be the best possible.
When it's something like >>25818813, a full price game in a famous franchise, I think it's disrespectful to me as a consumer and to the writer of the game.

>>25818937
>I hope you make it to Japan one day
Thanks anon, I also hope for that. Thanks for the recommendation.
My biggest problem is with professionally translated work. If a fan translator inserts a meme here and there in a comedic scene it doesn't really bother me, but when you expect me to spend money the translation should be the best possible.
When it's something like >>25818813, a full price game in a famous franchise, I think it's disrespectful to me as a consumer and to the writer of the game.

>>25819072
> If a fan translator inserts a meme here and there in a comedic scene it doesn't really bother me, but when you expect me to spend money the translation should be the best possible.
Completely reasonable, I 100% agree. If I sent someone 50 bucks to do a day one translation and scan of a doujin artist I wanted and the meme'd it the fuck up that is reason to be mad. Again lots of perspective is lost over the internet. You PAID something then wanted a result, it's fair to be a bit upset then. The reason I don't translate, aside from making enough to not rely on it, is because that there is so much grey area's in it. Just not my thing, I'd rather just cosplay have fun and chill around tokyo, hang out with some people on beers and chat. Again I think I've been in tokyo too much.

>a full price game in a famous franchise, I think it's disrespectful to me as a consumer and to the writer of the game.
I think this is more a publisher just said fuck it deal. I've had to fix stupid shit for people in japan a fair bit, you'd be suprised how many ryokans still use a faxer for payment

I dunno, I studied with someone who's a professional translator for a bit- not weeb shit but stuff from hibakusha organizations and other political stuff - and she really drove in the fact that what matters is your audience, and that even if people say they want hyper-literal translations they probably are kidding themselves. I used to think pure literalism was the goal and adding stuff was heresy, but if your goal is to make something sound natural you're going to have to compromise.

>>25819591
Making it sound natural is good. Japanese translated very literally sounds awkward. But things like >>25818813 or >>25818925 are another matter entirely.

>>25819591
She is right
>>25818973
You can cherry pick from the sidelines all you want but in the real world people just want the gist of it. Again you need to look at the sheer size of content, and yeah like I said if you paid for it.
> I used to think pure literalism was the goal and adding stuff was heresy, but if your goal is to make something sound natural you're going to have to compromise.
pretty much and that's why I don't get the threads fuss. If you directly pay for something directly yeah got it done, complain.

>>25819779
I mean when you look at the sheer amount of content, deadlines for shit and crap. Yeah I get it. Do I like it nah, do I understand it sure. Most games are on some limited budget. Meh I just think there is a bunch of shit that people don't take into account.

>>25819779
Yeah I agree those are steps too far, but somehow I feel like those kind of issues are more prevalent in "otaku" type media than other media translations. I don't know much about how the the bigger translation industry works, but I wonder if translation teams have directors how pressure them to "localize" it this way.

>>25820018
You wouldn't get away with that in any other profession and you likely wouldn't even get away with it for translations outside of otaku media specifically. Imagine if some memelord decided Murakami's latest novel really need some doge jokes.

>>25820051
>You wouldn't get away with that in any other profession and you likely wouldn't even get away with it for translations outside of otaku media specifically
maybe that's why they are in such a niche field?

>Imagine if some memelord decided Murakami's latest novel really need some doge jokes.
ezpz
Worked as a translator on projects such as:
x
y
z
I also worked with with contracts of companies:
x
y
z
Also here are my recommendations from those jobs.

Jun fact, no one cares on a resume so long as you made bank

>>25820051
Sure you wouldn't put doge jokes in Murakami, but that's because of the tone and content of the work - you wouldn't do the same with Tolstoy either. The question is with media that references Japanese memes or pop culture, is it ok for one to localize it by using American memes/references? Obviously our stance is no, but I'm sure there are people who argue for the other side.

>>25811235
>legitimate issues with bad translators making shit up
Welcome to the magical world of entertainment products, and a localisation industry built on cancerous ideals.

You are literally whining about a lion eating meat here. The shit translator was hired for a fair price for dogshit translation, and he produced... dogshit translation. No amount of whining at the translator, or even the localisation company, will change this.

What you'd have to do, is somehow convince Japanese owned companies who develop entertainment for Japanese consumers to start caring about 1% of the foreign audience who whines about "muh translation quality" while the other 99% doesn't care and will buy it either way. And what does this 1% of a foreign market want? Ah yes, they want you to give away 10 times what you're currently giving away to localisation companies for the HOPE that they don't pocket the excess and instead spend it on "higher quality translation", which is pretty nebulous when the field of translation is largely subjective, especially for the casual speech you'll encounter in the entertainment industry.

Honestly, EOPs are the most pathetic people around. There is absolutely zero logic to your demands, you are just pissing and moaning as a way of insulating yourself against the one truth, which is that you're too fucking lazy to just learn Japanese, which is what you should've done over a decade ago.

>>25821147
I know Japanese and you're still a faggot for defending trash.

>>25821176
I'm not defending trash. I'm saying that expecting trash to not smell like shit is retarded.

>>25821191
Nobody's surprised that things turn out poorly, but that doesn't mean anyone should just accept it. The majority of the problems that occur with commercial translation don't stem from the translators being cheap, but from them not being put on a leash.

>>25821267
>don't stem from the translators being cheap, but from them not being put on a leash.
How do you not see that these are the same thing? Okay, let's say a translator inserts his politics into a line, how do you prevent this? Well, you have to hire another translator to check it. So off the bat, you've just doubled your budget for translation on the game by "putting them on a leash".

>>25821147
Yeah, this is why I like just buying shit like Meilings fishing guide. The booth I met wasn't going to sell anything but I just loved the fact they tried, and the couple put their heart into it.

Out of all the things I bought that time, wish I saved meilings fishing guide. It was so lovable, I just love pure honest shit like that. Like they aren't going to sell out or make something big but they love trying with passion

>>25821333
There are already multiple translators working on these projects, along with translation checkers and editors. But if they're free to get away with whatever they want it's not going to matter how many translators you hire. If it did matter the answer would be to hire those guys in the first place instead of the translators that fancy themselves writers.

>>25821531
Because the translators don't all go over each others work, dude. Can you imagine how fucking retarded that'd be?

At best, you could make the claim that localisation companies are actively seeking out these changes thanks to HR departments staffed by women or something, but it still falls down to the same root issue, which is convincing Japanese companies who only care about the Japanese market to give a fuck about your complaints when it comes to a foreign product where the rights were sold not on the merit of "accuracy", but for the sake of profit. As long as bad translation does not hurt their bottom line more than the cost of paying for "good" translation would, they will never give a shit.

Is modern translation bad? I'd argue that it's more accurate now than ever before thanks to the ease of use the internet has afforded us, the only difference is now you're seeing references you don't like instead of references you don't mind, because pop culture was better back when you were 12. So keep on pissing into the wind.

Oh, and before you ask, translation being better now doesn't mean that translation is good. It means we upgraded from cow shit to dog shit.

>>25821628
When I was twelve there weren't army of idiots on the internet defending bad translations.

>>25821628
Translators don't need to go over each other's work, they need to reign in their stupid coworker when people start pointing out that he's a retard. Convincing either the Japanese company or the translation company to do something requires people be aware of the problem, which means not just accepting that everything sucks but pointing out how much everything sucks to people who may not even be aware.

>>25821742
Unless you're in your fifties, there absolutely was. And that's besides the point anyway, I'm not defending this shit. I'm just explaining reality to you.

Let's pretend for a moment that translations are the worst they've ever been. It doesn't change my argument at all.

>>25821786
>they need to reign in their stupid coworker when people start pointing out that he's a retard.
So you're expecting translators to just start bitching and whining at their colleagues when some EOP points out a "mistake"? When a solid 90% of the criticisms are gibberish, and the rest of the time they can be handwaved away with "my bad, I got bored and made up some shit"? How delusional are you, seriously?

>requires people be aware of the problem
But it's barely a problem to begin with, all of the examples people parrot are isolated instances. What's even funnier is that you live in an echo chamber of people whining about how there are no honorifics in their JAPANESE media and you have no idea of the reality of the situation, which is that the vast majority of the audience don't care. And anyone who actually does give a shit? Well, they either just learn Japanese, or spend their days crying about minor issues that nobody is ever going to care about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUoIq-7K4xs

>>25821855
Man, EOP is such a useful term. You can just use it wherever to completely dismiss anything.

>>25821915
Yeah, the other 200 odd words I used in that post weren't important at all.

>>25821926
It may as well have been 200 instances of "EOP" for how dismissive it all is. I would expect a company to take the concerns of its customers seriously, yes. What would it take for you to consider an issue to be major?

>>25822039
>I would expect a company to take the concerns of its customers seriously, yes.
Again, the number of people who complain about translations is a drop in the ocean. Most people are content eating shit, and even if a team managed to meet your personal expections, there would still be autists complaining about some other facet of a line they think should be translated differently.


>What would it take for you to consider an issue to be major?
For something to bother a significant proportion of the fanbase. LotR has been re-translated due to complaints, and hundreds of autists have taken it upon themselves to re-translate games.

If someone is content with consuming something that's mostly garbage, they're probably going to be fine reading a bit of fanfiction. The outliers here are people like you who claim to care about the "authenticity" of a work, and yet balk at the idea of putting in any personal effort to achieve it.

>>25695395
>vicarious embarrassment
and that sounds too high brow for any casual setting

>>25822526
"Want to read Aristotle without memes? Just learn Ancient Greek"
"Want to read Virgil's Aeneid without memes? Just learn Latin"
"Want to read Dante's Comedy without memes? Just learn Italian"
Your argument in a nutshell. A literal Japanese to English translation doesn't flow well. Making it sound natural is good. Replacing an untranslatable kanji pun with a joke English speakers will understand is good. Adding memes is bad. Turning common everyday dialogue into comedy is bad. Adding or changing things because the translator wants to is bad.
It's not hard.

>>25830777
Sure it's not good translation, but again there isn't enough demand for a more refined translation. You get Aristotle without memes because the demand from people who read Aristotle is for a more "academic" translation. Also I'd say anyone who's on this part of the internet probably consumes enough Japanese media that at least starting to learn the language makes sense.

>>25830777
If you compare subs to those works just fuck off

>>25834493
Why? The translators of those kinds of works even have the same dumb disagreements we do.

>>25630235
I have some japanese pen pals that say they picked up spanish since pronunciation is "close enough" while english just fuck their shit up.

>>25830777
>"Want to read Aristotle without memes? Just learn Ancient Greek"
>"Want to read Virgil's Aeneid without memes? Just learn Latin"
>"Want to read Dante's Comedy without memes? Just learn Italian"
Shit examples, especially the last two. Poetry is a completely different matter and depends on the language itself. I'm Italian and we learn Latin in school to read the Aeneid: the Italian translation is slow paced and doesn't flow as well as the Latin poetry, which has a consistent rhythm. The English translation is just laughable. The same goes for the Divine Comedy, the English translation is painful to read.
The only good example is Aristotle, with the English translation you lose the nuance of the original Ancient Greek, but people do learn Ancient Greek so that they can read him in the original language.

Your argument isn't even wrong and I agree with you, but you couldn't have choosen worse examples to support it.

>>25846367
I just used whatever came to my mind first, anon. Don't get too caught up on it.

>>25830777
Why are you expecting cheap pop culture media to be handled with the same care and attention as classical works?

If it's not hard, why don't you do it for minimum wage? I'm sure you'd get a lot of job offers.

>>25647966
This is how you get 'all according to keikaku'

>>25722259
I hope the Japanese are at least self-aware enough to understand how rigid their language is.
This got me curious how the Jabberwocky poem was translated to Japanese. I don't think gluing two kanji together is really the same as completely made up gibberish. A lot of magic and uniqueness is lost when you apply meaning to those words.
https://ameblo.jp/eliot-akira/entry-10138681985.html

>>25858542
They can write gibberish words without kanji you know....

>>25859156
Then why didn't they...........................................................................

>>25856572
I'm not saying translators should brainstorm for days on how to translate a line. I'm aware they're not translating a literary masterpiece.
I'm questioning why a number of translators think it's okay to change things around or have some fun with the text. I'm sure it takes more effort to think of some funny meme than just translate a simple line of everyday conversation.
Why do some translators go out of their way to mess with the source material? Why do they feel entitled to do that? Just because you're being hired for cheap (I'm aware most translation work for niche mediums does not pay well, unfortunately) is it fine to disrespect the original work? You can't know if the author wrote it absentmindedly or if he was incredibly proud of what he wrote.

>>25857901
No you get that because the fan translator is feeling goofy and there's nobody to hold him accountable.

>>25858542
>This got me curious how the Jabberwocky poem was translated to Japanese
like this.

>>25670462
cool opinion kill yourself

Imagine doing direct translations of books. Monolinguals will ACTUALLY defend this.

What I hate about American dubbers is that they all think they're comedians. Why add so many quippy quips? They make the dialogues unbereable. There are scenes when the characters are showing vulnerability or empathy for the first time but the translator still need to add le funny quip because he assumes all the gamers are Marvelfags

>>25860908
That is some hideous art.
If that's supposed to be the Jabberwock then the Japanese have absolutely no respect for other cultures. Fucking disgusting.

>>25624217
You're not supposed to consume anything ever.

>>25617799
You should see what they did for Phoenix Wright.

>>25628020
So cultural appropriation is also fine when they do it? 流石 libtards.

>>25821855
Spot the sekai project drone.

>25820185
But would you put Murakami quotes on doge memes?

>25821895
I laught.

Translation is localization

>>25889953
yes, but localization isn't translation.

>>25890264
Localization is cultural appropriation.

>>25891179
Translation is cultural appropriation.

ITT: pedantic fucks