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8766336 No.8766336 [Reply] [Original]

Do trader jobs still exist or is it all algos and AI?

>> No.8766376

>>8766336

yes, they do exist and they are incompetent button pushers. smart money moves to hedge funds and makes higher returns trading their own money.

>> No.8766400

>>8766336
yes we do but it's mostly dominated by algos. only time we have an edge is on the open, news place, and after hours. all comes down to discipline and risk and return on positions. algos are brutal tho. very big learning curve.

-source, day trader at a prop firm in nyc.

>> No.8766413

>>8766376
>hedge funds
>higher returns

lmao

>> No.8766416

>>8766336

They are, but I've heard they don't make as much money as they used to because of the algos and AI. The investment banks, that is. Like this guy said:

>>8766376

Hedge funds are more tailored.

>> No.8766455

>>8766416
there's several guys that make 7 or more figures. there's many more that barely make 6. theres even more that make no money. the bots are no joke. tey take stops out by a single cent .

>> No.8766494

>>8766336
look at this guy's hair able to completely muffle the receiver so the other line cant hear. an amazing example of short lived adaptive phenotypes

>> No.8766921

>>8766400
Can you go into some details about what you think algos do to make things difficult. I agree with you btw, just wanted to know some of your experiences.

As an example, it seems some people blame the reduced effectiveness of breakouts on hft.

I assume orderflow scalping has become harder as well (what I'm guessing a lot of prop traders do)?

>> No.8767095

>>8766336
Yes. Protip: be the guy that makes the algos and trains the AI. Big money. Trust me.

>> No.8767170

>>8766921
It's simple. The algos are faster than you. They're designed to trade certain patterns that people used to be able to catch. They're so fast though that they buy and sell before you can thus eating your lunch. Day trading for a human is a sucker's game. If you don't have a bot, forget it.

>> No.8767189

>>8766413
Are you stupid? Hedge funds pay way more

>> No.8767217

>>8767095
Will my business calculus allow me to do that?

>> No.8767247

>>8767170
What? Just trade the Barts, are you stupid? Need an entry? Wait for the ride up and then short the hair. Then open a long when it drops below where you closed your short.

>> No.8767301
File: 545 KB, 1080x1584, 20180405_141343.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8767301

Don't shoot the messenger. Knowledge is power. Talks about what smart money who run the show don't want you to know.

https://youtu.be/L7G0OfJUON8


4chan = divide and conquer (image related)

>> No.8767320

>>8767217
>Will my business calculus allow me to do that?
Having a high enough IQ is what will allow you to do that. 2 sd above the mean and beyond or fuhgeddaboudit
>>8767247
>What? Just trade the Barts
No Simpsons TA in the stock market.

>> No.8767514

>>8767301
This is the truth nobody wants to hear. Yes, if you can become a good trader (which is very, very hard), you can make a lot of money. But all the guys who made a fortune are investors, not traders. Investing takes time and patience, trading is much faster. That’s why people like it. They simply do not have patience. A solid understanding of portfolio and money management, combined with a stable form of cash flow will make you really rich. Trading won’t.

>> No.8767571

Old school trading (phone, e-mail) is well and alive in OTC markets.
Also equities were laughed at back in 80s'.

>> No.8767579

I work for a major investment firm and last year about 35% of our trade volume went through 'worked' or 'cash' trading which is when a trade is done manually and consciously. The rest of it was algorithmic or similar ('low touch"). When I started 5 years ago Worked trading was about 56% of trade volume, so you can see that it has shed about 4% of its presence each year. Low-touch trading is bigger every year as companies chase each other's prices lower and lower.

>> No.8767602

>>8767170
Being faster is not the point of all trading methods. Speed would impact orderflow scalping, which somewhat relies on the ability of getting in front of bigger orders quickly.

Spoofing in orderflow is an issue with algo trading.

Part of why hft has made breakout trading harder is because, I believe, methods are used to attract other algos by creating some momentum/volume activity, and then reversing momentum in opposite direction of what was indicated by a breakout. A lot of breakout trader (both algo and human) stops get hit, and it turns into a mean reversion play.

>> No.8767627

>>8766336
The surviving lone wolves aim for really long movements but daytrading kinda ded.

>> No.8767634

>>8766336
The industry is mostly about sales now

>> No.8767645

>>8766455
that sounds fucking brutal

>> No.8767671

>>8767602
>Being faster is not the point of all trading methods.
Fair enough. Works for me though. The progression of my strategy was as follows: I identified some patterns that happen so fast that while they do exist, no human would be able to systematically take advantage. So I created something that can. Now I make a ton of money. How anybody can manually day trade the stock market is beyond me and it isn't because I didn't try.

>> No.8767728
File: 62 KB, 415x415, soros1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8767728

>>8767514

>> No.8767871

>>8767301
How do I become an investment bank?
Can I invest in an investment bank?

>> No.8767920

>>8767247
This. In bear markets go aggressive on shorts when the price bounces for a while. In bull markets you buy dips. You can make a good living being this simple about your trades, but most people like to get fancy and try to trade all the time. Get one good entry with an aggressive push in, be patient and wait a few days to a few weeks and you can make enough money to live off of for months.

>> No.8767937

yes you need 140+ iq tho

>> No.8767966

>>8767937
>yes you need 140+ iq tho
This anon gets it. The truth is brutal and even then only a fraction will make it. But if your score on the WAIS-IV is less than this number, I'd suggest index funds.

>> No.8768024

You need connections or to be in a trading city.
Also AI has been running the bulk of the trading for a decade yet nobody believes it.

>> No.8768041

>>8767301
>image related
Fucking ID related

>> No.8768117
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8768117

>>8768024
I have a feel for this but I'm curious about something from your perspective. A lot of people say things like "AI is running the market" but what exactly do you mean by that. AI covers a lot of ground. Some people consider shit like K nearest neighbor, the thing that powers Netflix recommendations to be a form of AI. Some people reserve that moniker for actual neural networks that rewire themselves based on experience like what powers Alpha Go. What exactly are you saying? If/Then/Else decision tree or super tensorflow CANN finger of God tier? Or are you just repeating buzzwords? No shame if the latter as you'll be in good company, I'm just curious.

>> No.8768297

>>8767920
This is it. As long as you don't get greedy and add to your advantage by reading up on the financial news you are good. I'm no genius but I treat myself to the financial times on the weekend to get a good idea of what mergers are happening or how politics is influencing companies etc etc. If a good long term company drops by like 5% I normally buy in and then set a sell limit for when it goes up by 2.5-3%. Nothing to crazy but it works. I might not get the 2.5% for a month but I'm in no need to rush things. Lots of people have no patience. It was a major factor why so many normies jumped on the bitcoin wave: everyone wants to get rich quick but that's a sure fire way to bad decisions.

I've made about 9% profit over the course of 2 months and I've only made like three or four trades. I will be well chuffed with myself if I can get it to 50% in a year.

>> No.8768378

>>8768024

As pointed out in
>>8768117
The types of "AI" feasible in production environments for the past decade is hardly capable of "driving the market."
I'm sure it's been driving in-the-trenches hft patterns and similar ongoing battles on a small scale, but what drives the market on the large scale is still human sentiment, which makes long term investment still meaningful.
If AI singlehandedly drove the market, no stocks would be worth more or less than other stocks - they would all just be toys that the AI plays with that fluctuate, with no meaning behind the trade symbol whatsoever.
But we don't see that, do we? Google is worth more than smaller conpanies, right?
Human sentiment and usefulness in the real world still "drives the market."
Now, with the advent of CNN/LSTM/GAN/some of the more modern neural network architectures, we will see this get more sophisticated somehow, though I'm not sure it's possible for AI to truly drive the market - it'd be a bit of a paradox. If strong AI drove the market entirely, it wouldn't stay that way for long because human sentiment in the companies' real-world presence would cause an imbalance and tip the scales again.
The closest AI's have ever really gotten to taking that away from us has been Twitter scraping and sentiment analysis.
t. Computer Scientist involved in NN's for over 10 years.