/vt/ - Virtual Youtubers

Anyone who uses a self-made software will look worse than a vtuber using an open-sourced software.

>>74367511
>>74367511

why are you using the war crminal as a example her model is iconic

>>74367511
Because the models aren't bad even if they aren't the best of the best, and that money can be better spent elsewhere for Cover. Updating a model isn't going to do much to bring in more fans or money, but concerts and collaborations and such will, so that is what they focus on.

>>74367673
She could really use an update kinda like FBK got

>>74367597
/thread

You're retarded and thanks for wasting another thread

You don't need flashing neon signs and LEDs on your tits to impress as a Holo. Leave that to VShojo.

>>74367591
Cover uses Live2D Cubism which is open source, facial tracking is the only in-house software they're using and it's based on Apple's tech

>>74367511
>good model is when tits bounce at the slightest movement

>>74367693
Apart from not bring in new people, change could always drive away current fans.

>>74368389
unironically, yes.

>>74368052
noel sama please don't eat me

>>74368291
I don't think it's a tracking issue, just shit rigging.

>>74367511
IRyS 2.0 is 10/10

>>74367511
while I agree, why did you post one that still looks really good
Pekora's is so iconic

>>74367511
Holo models are not good but literally you have Niji whose models are completely dogshit.
Honestly it's genuinely hard to find an vtuber whose model is as bad as Niji's, even indies.

>>74367511
Even if that were so, their models are all well designed and cute (or eventually get there, not that it was irys' fault). The tech is less important than the personality.

It's good to update the model and add more features.
But I don't want them to completely remake it and end up like Fubuki.

>>74369052
Yes exactly like this

>>74370619
alternative is Suisei, which is doing it right

[trigger warning, criticism of your favorite corpo]
I do not like Holo rigging. It's okay until they look to the sides and it looks like theyre sliding up and down on a fixed vertical line. I think about it every time I see a girl look off to the side.

>>74370718
this is the way

>>74368915
They've used plenty of high-quality riggers whose work outside of Hololive speaks for itself.

It's not a rigging issue. It's SOMETHING in their proprietary software.

>>74371118
any examples?

Honestly I would rather Cover be slow as fuck with tech than be like Iron Mouse or Juniper where it's always changing how they look. I like how constant and recognizable various girls are, even then I think a bunch of them are ovderdone with too many outfits. I know tech =/= outfits, but my point is I would rather things be slower than change too quicky.

>>74371210
Keffiy rigged Vei's first L2D back in 2021, which to this day has a wider range of motion and more accurate facial tracking than Holo models.

I don't know how commonly they use him these days but he used to have his hands all over Holo rigging.

>>74371312
>Honestly I would rather Cover be slow as fuck with tech than be like Iron Mouse or Juniper where it's always changing how they look
You know it's not an either or situation, right?

>>74367511
This looks iconic though?

Show me 1 holo that have anything as close of accurate facetracking?

>>74367511
>Hololive models are outdated and look bad in comparison to pretty much everyone else

>>74372009
It doesn't look right when it moves that much.

>>74367511
I want to suck on her pointy chin and eat her eyebrows.

There are some indies I watch just because their models are so great. Can't say that with any holos

Hololive needs to step it up

>>74372009
Just say you're a zoomer who needs constant things flying on the screen and be done with it.

>>74367511
Because Cover has deals with riggers which allow them to pay less when they commission a new model. Is all about saving money. Sayu and even Shylily old model MOG most of hololive model but those are fucking expensive. You have to remember a lot of rich people never move from the poorfag mentality as long they save money.

>>74367511
>op image
Sovl....

>>74372009
Snuffy's models is the only good thing about her. Not every of her models tho.

>>74373292
>Sayu and even Shylily old model MOG most of hololive model but those are fucking expensive. You have to remember a lot of rich people never move from the poorfag mentality as long they save money.
"Mogging" other models doesn't mean shit when the two you mentioned are terminal coomers, and the other is a genshit streamer..

It's been 4 years and they still haven't relocated gura's eyes to a proper distance

>>74373386
We're talking about vtuber models not about how the chuubas conduct their streams.you soured grape buffoon. The fuck having a better model has to do with every other pile of bitter garbage you just posted? Get the fuck outta here if you can't stay on topic.

>>74373514
They have offered gura a 2.0 but gura doesn't want it. Her eyes unironically are part of her model charm and she loves it.

>>74373637
im just saying why having the shiny nice upgrade doesn't mean shit when the person behind it ain't the best.

>>74373514
Whats interesting about this kind of choice in eye spacing it is because of her small height.

>>74373807
I just uoh'd a little. Damn literal cunny shark

>>74370619
nu-fubuk is terrible, she lost that dead look in her eyes and low mouth that made her look really unique imo
now she looks mass-produced and she has that unsightly "kson mouth" where it looks like she's sticking out her tounge slightly when her mouth isn't fully closed on that one U G L Y model Kson has, blech

>>74367597
>>74372520
OP is talking about indie models. Everyone knows the other billion dollar company's models are just as bad.

>>74373740
And I'm saying that hololive have deal with their own riggers and own their own software which is why their models don't look as good and fluid as other indies models. If they want better models they have to shill more cash so is more of a if it ain't broke don't fix it type of mentality. Nobody is debating their ability to entertain a crowd this isn't what this topic is about. The topic is about the quality of the models.

>>74374078
I don’t listen to /lig/gers, though.

>>74371118
I know Gura has Iron Vertex models, so a stream using that vs her in-house models would be a good basis comparison.
not that anyone could ever outdo oykeli

>>74367511
>>74367732
Fubuki design was iconic and I am tired to pretend the new one is better.

>>74374137
Becoming a household name dwarfs being bleeding edge on the tech end. Indies are in an arms race with one another that Hololive doesn’t have to engage in; they already hold the keys. Bar a collapse of the overall medium, that’s unlikely to change.

>>74367511
You could give Pekora the absolute best rigging, expressions and options in a Vtuber model and it'd be a complete waste. She almost never toggles her other expressions or accessories. To her benefit ou could say her default expression is iconic because of that since she's crying or screaming bloody murder with the same smile
I was really looking forward to her putting on the half-closed eyes since it made her look smug by default, but she's never touched it since the model update stream

>>74374398
You're still point out irrelevant shit that has nothing to do with the quality of the model. You want your 4chan victory that bad? Here take it, now fuck off somewhere and let people who aren't being tribalist monkeys have a proper discussion about the topic. Having a better model doesn't translate to sucess everyone knows this so I don't know what's compelling you to keep interjecting your tribalist bullshit into a topic that's irrelevant to that.

>>74374865
with good rigging you don't need expression toggles lmao

Miko??

>>74374348
I loved fubs old design it had soul this new one is kinda soulless probably because is too bright and look extra cartoonish.

>>74374348
>>74375486
im in the minority but I like new friend

>>74375523
New friend is pure sex

>>74374991
>nothing to do with the quality of the model
It has plenty to do with it, actually. Making massive adjustments is almost entirely unnecessary. Those that need to are often attempting to either stay “fresh” or do so against competitors. Considering they are nearly peerless in several regards, a question as to quality —which is largely subjective until proven otherwise — is less about the why not and more about the why would.
>tribalism
I’m making an observation here, as candidly as possible. Indies generally lack the restrictions, hence why I’d singled them out.

>>74374991
Well I think the point they're making is that there isn't a strong incentive for them to do company-wide updated models as a business decision. They can spend on more explosive projects/branding that has greater reach/impact for existing fans.

The talents themselves are already doing a great job driving the experience, and I can't see that more appealing model will make a significant difference at this stage.

But I agree, it'd be nice. I'd update all of them, especially Gura (who needs it) and Bae ( because I'd love to see what she'd look like with greater fidelity and I lobe her :< )

>>74367597
Dox "hobo" fakuma

>>74375523
Nah I'm just used to old friend model I miss it way too much.

>>74367511
Dumb ass retard. Iroha would have worked, Hell all of Holostars first and second gem minus Astel and Izuru(?)

>>74367511
It’s a waste of time and money after a certain point. Cover is commissioning 80 models a year minimum on top of whatever brush ups they’re also doing. There’s already bottlenecks where the girls are barely getting their 2023 outfits this year.

Indie can spend more money and time on their models and rigging whereas corpos set budgets an deadlines.
Himono explained this back when Kson debuted her top tiet model. Rich indies unironically pay more for their model than corpos.

I can only recall RyS, isn't Bean Mouth pretty common on Holo 3D models?

>>74376190
This.

>>74372520
RUMAO

The models are fine, the rigging for a bunch is jank. I hope that retard who did gura and anyas rigging loses their hands.

>>74367511
It's a terrible idea.
Better rigging like that costs more money. With the number of talents Cover has, the number they debut, and the number of outfits they get, the cost would grow exponentially over time. Indies can do it fine since they're just single people, but Cover has to worry about all of them, not just one, plus about maintaining the entire companies steady and reliable income. If income went down in the future and they had these nice models, what then? They'd have to do budget cuts somewhere
>Downgrade all new rigging, causing a stir and making them look bad
>Cut down on outfits and debuts, making the girls and fans sad
>All new debuts get the old shit rigging, making people angry at Cover
>Most likely, a mixture of the above
Nobody says they don't watch Holos because their rigging is bad, and very few would be attracted by the newer shiny ones too. It's not practical or cost effective, and the fans like the girls for their personalities more than their models. It's nice to have nice things, but this would just be way more of a potential problem than it's worth.

When I'm looking for new chuubas, having a great character design is much more important, visually. If I'm leaving out all other factors, I'll more quickly drop a chuuba for having a unappealing or uninteresting character design, than having unexpressive rigging. Their ability to perform around, or even utilize, bad rigging, is generally a good sign of an interesting chuuba, and it can almost always get upgraded over time without loosing their "personality", whereas changing the actual character design can.

>>74377240
>Nobody says they don't watch Holos because their rigging is bad
apparently my name is Nobody

>>74375523
soul
soulless

>>74376190
corpos are capable of spending just as much money as top indies do on their talent's models without it affecting their bottom line, they just choose not to. upgrading every cover talent's model to medium-upper indie tier would be about a million USD, 5% of their profit last year

>>74377995
Obviously they do have the cash if they wanted to. They just don't because it's a bad opportunity cost.

>>74377240
>Nobody says they don't watch Holos because their rigging is bad
I literally did not watch vtubers until late 2022 despite knowing about them early 2021 because I'd only ever seen videos of hololive and I didn't see the appeal of a png with blinks and mouth flaps over footage compared to just audio. the only reason I started was I saw indies and what they COULD look like

Cover doesn't spend that much on 2D but their new 3D models are unironically better than than every single competitor's, save for Kizuna Ai's but she died. Whenever they have outside guests in 3D lives they always look so much worse.

>>74378641
they've also fixed up Marine's body too

>>74378641
cover has had access to nilotoon (and HDRP) much longer than indie modellers have, how you texture a model changes depending on the capabilities of the shader. until nilo became widespread, detailed shadows on textures had to be hard painted in and contact shadows were never very accurate because URP isn't capable of that. lighting and toon outlines on the URP standard poiyomi also aren't super accurate bdue to those limitations. because it costs money to use (both the shader itself and warudo pro which you need to run it) you won't see every indie with it but larger ones will if they haven't already

>>74372009
Try to imagine if anime looked like this. Do you really think that would make it a better experience?

>>74372009
lol typical amerimutt cartoon shit. funny that mutts believe this is superior or something lmao

>>74377240
>Nobody says they don't watch Holos because their rigging is bad
That's the main reason i don't watch PNG tubers, or corpos.
They look cheap and poorly made

>>74375523
>no more cold piercing eyes seeing right through you
guess she's moe now or some shit

>>74379599
rent free

>>74379523
What made you think he like anime?

>>74368422
True, just look at Fubuki, plenty of people still don't like her update.

>>74379754
/co/ niggers can never understand why people hate /co/ trash

>>74379523
>>74379599
an anime isn't 99% of the time focused on somebody's face. if I'm watching a vtuber I'm watching for their personality and thus I want to see their reactions to things expressed accurately. non-corporate models are objectively more accurate in that regard, if you don't like how it looks then that's your opinion but plenty of people enjoy it. besides expression there's also the ability for indies to look much further sideways which isn't possible on the majority of L2D corp models

>>74379523
unironically this is the shit they pull every time they do a hologra since that one Ark episode years ago.
Also there is a good chunk of anime that does that, both 3D and 2D, they used it for comedic effect though, not permanent.

>>74372009
>Overly bouncy jellyfish models
Yeah no thanks

A lot of people here shouldn't run an IP business.

>>74380028
If you don't want to look like anime, why ape the anime style? Why don't these people try to look like Futurama or a Marvel comic?

>>74374223
Even her best model is still 90% umishit because the good riggers refuse to modify anything in place and umi is not even in the business anymore.
Unless she can find someone to break out of the cabal and commit to pissing them all off, her only option is to pair a rerig with a top to bottom redesign as well.

>>74379323
Is that shader specific to unity? Do they have a chance of recreating the look in Unreal or are they hardstuck?

>>74367511
Hololive have great designs and models, beside some cases were they didn't age too well like Fubuki, Flare, Watame, Haachama, Aki, Matsuri, Iofi and Moona that look really bad in 3D because of their proportions.

They lack in the rigging part for sure, but is not really a problem, excessive rigging can be a bad thing, you see it every day with major indies on twitch with their bubbly rigging

>>74380403
They look like anime, retard.

They should hire Ui mama to design everyone's model

>>74380546
Flare's 3D is honestly one of the best out there post upgrade

they are not even trying anymore. sad.

>>74367511
the only trash rabbit model is outdated, Nousagi.

>>74380403
because it's aesthetically pleasing? anime "style" isn't hyper specific either, fruits basket, fma, dragon ball, and spirited away all look completely different from each other and have variable framerates but they're all anime
>>74380502
it's written for unity. there's no reason to not use unity for vtubing purposes though since HDRP is available for use now, game companies wanting to use that style can write similar shaders for unreal if they want to use that as their engine

>>74374865
Based bunny

>>74367511
Can they upgrade? Yes.
Should they upgrade? Yes, absolutely, it would be great to see.
Will they upgrade? Fuck no, maybe with a few very rare exceptions.

Corporations are antonyms to passion, breaking new ground or anything else of the sort. If they can spend less money and effort, they WILL spend less money and effort. So until the designs get unbearably hideous in comparison to indies or other corpos, or until the maintenance cost for rigging code made in 2018 becomes too high, Cover won't do shit. And kurosanji will just axe the problematic organs, they are a short term investment after all.

Indie shitters should stfu until they become more than like 3% of vtuber viewership or whatever.

>>74367511
It shows that they're relying on talent skill rather than technology, unlike some indies.

>>74372913
>>74373168
>>74379523
>>74380107
Imagine being so retarded and corpo-poisoned that you look at a .webm which is simply demonstrating the accuracy of their facial tracking and thinking
>YOU JUST NEED THINGS CONSTANTLY MOVING AND BOUNCING!!!!
Jesus Christ, the lot of you

It's OK to admit the tracking in Hololive sucks. You don't have to twist your brain to pretend it's somehow superior. Nobody's saying that bad tracking makes them bad vtubers.

Fucking Biboo's mouth just flaps open and closed. Get over yourselves.

Even if they wanted to "upgrade" their models, it would mean having to redo the models for every single member to maintain consistency in collabs. Then they have many costumes for each member, too. It's not so easy to change.

I like when ironmouse does her talk show when holonijis show up and they just look like garbage compared to her. Especially the male models, they are literally like cardboard cutouts like holo has in 3d streams sometimes as a joke.

Actually now that I mention it, it mouse can get good rigging on her 5000 models then wtf is wrong with these corpos. She probably has more models than hololive has members so logistically it's possible for all of them to have good rigging.

>>74384850
Indie rigging looks gross

>>74367597
/thread

>>74367511
Pekora's model is just shit

>>74367511
Sure I agree that they're outdated in terms of movement and features, but they definitely don't look bad. I'd prefer a limited but good looking model over a trashy looking 3D one with bounce physics.

>>74384850
>a ligger appears
I will always enjoy classic style Monhuns to the new world stuff. The same thing applies here.

hololive caters to a more refined, sophisticated consumer of vtubers

the models may not be flashy and over the top but hololive fans appreciate the craftsmanship and actual talent that goes into every single model of each talent

>>74387982
rigging is an art and hololive's rigging is bottom of the barrel.

>>74388889
Okay.
And?

>>74371469
Do you watch Holo?

>>74367511
>Hololive models are outdated and look bad in comparison to pretty much everyone else
>They are a multi billion dollar corporation. Why can't they just spend the money to update their models?

They will achieve brand equity this way. Eventually because of their general recognition, they will just make money by putting it out there on merch like Gura or Mickey Mouse.

Sistas and nijiniggers will never understand business and profit.

>>74368272
Yeah you just need the blue dorito and the drones will chow down in whatever dogshit Cover feeds to them.

>>74368389
Cardboard cutouts have more movement then Holo models.

>>74369286
Pekora is the pinnacle of retarded design. "Hey guys, what can we do to make sure our brain dead audience knows this is supposed to be a rabbit vtuber? Stick some carrots in her braids? BRILLIANT!"

>>74371312
You are retarded. If you already watch someone you're gonna know who they are.

>>74389180
git gud

>>74367511
>Hololive models are outdated and look bad in comparison to pretty much everyone else
For some this really worked. Look at AZKi. She's more popular now more than ever after her long hair design.

>>74375795
It's basically this. They know they've got you drones by the balls and so they have no incentive to improve. You demand nothing so they just keep on.

>>74377650
Me too. Also they're boring.

>>74378641
>3D is better
Useless if you don't ever use it. And give it time. Western indies and a couple of VShojo members are already blowing past them.

>>74379523
>would anime with better animation be better
Yes?

Check this out.

>>74389866
I fucking love Ci, bros

>>74381841
Uh... indie viewership is a larger percentage than any corpo.

>>74367511
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

>>74389820
Anon, they use it constantly. You see, the universe doesn't just stop when you're not paying attention.

>>74390122
>constantly
99 percent of their annual content is regular live2d streams.

>>74390165
No. It's not.

>>74388945
it's not catering to sophisticated people, it's just bad

>>74390244
Okay. And?

>>74390196
Okay, anon. I'll just tune in to the next 3d stream. I'm sure there'll be four or five today right? Since they use it constantly, right?

>>74390342
Miko only uses 3d

>>74390342
You missed Miko's Ao Oni yesterday.

>>74390332
they should take a few dollars out of the genshin impact fund to improve it

>>74384987
>it would mean having to redo the models for every single member to maintain consistency in collabs
But there's already disparity in rigging quality cross-gens? Advent for example has much higher range of movement than anything before them.

You also don't need to entirely redo the model. They might have some outdated cutting, but you can still improve the rigging. Look at Mint as an example. Whether you like the way Kevin rigs or not, that model is years old and was still adaptable to a higher range of motion and more accurate face tracking.

>>74386636
What's "gross" about it?

>>74389054
Do you watch anything other than Holo? You really don't have to look far to see how outdated their models are.

>>74389235
That's not true, because Niji models are almost literally cardboard cutouts. They literally sway left and right instead of turning.

>>74390409
>>74390412
Wow. One. So much constant utilizing.

>>74390479
>Do you watch anything other than Holo? >You really don't have to look far to see how outdated their models are.
Are you saying that Ironmouse has smoother facial movement than Miko or Watame?

Beyond a certain level of "acceptable" quality there isn't an incentive for corpo vtubers to have good rigging especially when you're managing budgets across however many talents you have. There are like a billion indies with super dynamic rigging that are all in 2view hell because that shit does not translate into any measurable success.

>>74390539
It's not only one. There's a few who only use 3D.

>>74390409
>>74390412
Miko and others are exclusively 3D and they still can't figure out how to make their home 3D accurate and smooth.

Sure their models look good, but are you guys seeing how they move?
Tracking for 3D models usually blows 2D out of the water with ease but in Hololive they're just as if not sometimes MORE jank than their 2D.

>>74390630
Yes. Her and countless others.
Also I wouldn't be bragging about Watame with her face angles.

>>74390539
>99 percent of their annual content is regular live2d streams
No need to be so disengenious

>>74390630
I'll say it: yes. And that's 2D vs 3D.

>>74390681
Do you want me to admit the 99% stat was exaggerated? I thought it was implied. The point isn't the actual number the point is that they don't have great 3d but don't use it. MOST of the time they don't use it.

>>74390696
>Miko and others are exclusively 3D and they still can't figure out how to make their home 3D accurate and smooth.
Show me some clips between "good" home 3d and why it's better than Holo. Go ahead, feel free.

>>74390696
Are you basing everything you say on knowledge from 2 years ago?

instead of 'upgrading' models to lose soul, GIVE ME FUCKING PERSONALIZED SWIMSUITS ON THE CURRENT MODELS!!!!!

>>74390777
Er have great 3d but don't use it. My error.

>>74390825
Holy fuck
THIS

>>74390777
>Studio level tracking with dozens of cameras and a mocap suit vs iphone
Gee, I wonder why

>>74390831
Your point was that it isn't used, so I pointed to cases where it's used frequently. Why are you upset?

>>74390801
Watch any Zentreya stream.

>>74390888
It's a unity model.

>>74389820
None of them can reach the kino miko can with her model.

>>74390888
His models are just as janky
What are you on?

>>74390876
Then it's not very good is it?

>>74390881
Okay fine, I just ran the numbers. Exactly 86.34% of all annual hololive content does not use 3d. There. The numbers are completely real and not something I just made up. Go verify it yourself if you don't believe me. And please take your time doing so.

>>74390986
Migo really is something else

>>74390931
So?

>>74389866
>Check this out.
wow, it's fucking terrible. every element and facial feature is totally disconnected.

zoomers unironically want hyper-busy AI slop RGB designs with wacky wavy inflatable arm flailing tube man rigging.

>>74391097
>>74391015

>>74391019
I did not mean to offend you. You asked a question, so I gave you an answer. I'm not sure what set you off, but I apologize.

>>74391124
>wow, it's fucking terrible. every element and facial feature is totally disconnected.
but enough about you

>>74389866
ew the mouth is fucking disconnected from the rest of the face, that is disgusting.

>>74390801
>>74390809
https://www.youtube.com/live/2MnI_2pFtRY?si=yIB_0Hxj2YpJvnbp&t=14264
Miko's newest stream.
https://www.youtube.com/live/Cf7t98ND-SU?si=OKKSx9K79iBoiCeU&t=2482
A 3D Koro stream I dug to find

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2074905438?t=00h29m18s
30K follower (former) indie using a VRoid model.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2114523595?t=00h22m27s
20K follower indie
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2108944420?t=02h45m02s
15K follower indie and this is the oldest model of the three.

Ignoring the fact that two of them have hand tracking on, which I've noticed Holo talents typically don't use for home 3D, you can clearly see a difference in the available mouth shapes and the accuracy of the eye and mouth tracking.
The Holo models can, with some accuracy, open and close the mouth when needed, but there are limited mouth shapes on offer to the point where I'd believe you if you told me it was voice-activated and not face-tracked. They also have difficulty maintaining eyelid movements in-between the open and closed states.

>>74391405
look away from the mirror

>>74391625
Are you arguing that these look smoother than Miko? How did you even come to that conclusion from your own clips?

>>74391837
Are you being serious?

>>74367511
I mostly have a different tab going or a game on. I don't actually sit there staring daggers into the model's eyes, you autistic nigger

>>74391883
Are you just unable to watch them without bias? The Miko example looked better than all 3 Twitch ones.

>>74392017
Do your eyes work? Are you just being contrarian for the sake of your favorite company?

I truly, genuinely do not understand how you can watch those models next to Holo's and think that they somehow don't move better. It's immediately clear.

>>74391654
no amount of immature 'no u' quips are going erase the fact that your hideous abomination is shit in the rigging department.

>>74392097
Meat is insanely janky, Lala's eyes are fucked, and the last one was bland as hell.

>>74392131
don't be so hard on yourself

>>74392179
>Meat is insanely janky
How?
>Lala's eyes are fucked
Literally how?
>the last one was bland as hell
What does that have to do with tracking?

>>74371469
Holo uses Keffiy all the time. Off the top of my head, the most recent new model he rigged is Ruze (November 2023) and just did new outfit rigging for both Watame and Axel (March 2024).

>>74392346
Meat's movements are all jerky. Lala's eyes are expressive but the toggle gets spammed by just her talking. The last one was just a regular model with decent mouth tracking.

i genuinely can't understand why some people prefer the jelly mouth rigging, it looks like those weird hologras where they make the faces wobblier than usual to make it look weird on purpose

>>74392464
>Meat's movements are all jerky.
I know her arms are kind of messy but I did clarify that I'm ignoring the arm tracking her and Lala have because Holos typically don't use it.
>Lala's eyes are expressive but the toggle gets spammed by just her talking.
It's not a toggle, she's just opening her eyes wider. She's a very expressive person and that's reflected in her tracking. It's working precisely as intended.
>The last one was just a regular model with decent mouth tracking.
Yeah? That was the point.

>>74392563
the non-schizophrenics perceive things as they are, unlike you

>>74392646
>It's not a toggle, she's just opening her eyes wider.
It's obviously preset for her eyes to widen and her pupils to shrink. If you're saying it's based on how much she opens her eyes, they need to turn it down a bit.

So is this just seethe that little shitters with their 'advanced' models can't come to even the ankles of Hololive talents' ability to entertain others?

>>74392563
>waaaah waaaaah why don't people agree with my nonsensical contrarian babbling

>>74392748
Well that's just a matter of aesthetic taste, not accuracy in tracking.

>>74392818
I can't see any of their faces. Accuracy isn't something that can be observed here.

>>74392871
Oh well in that case, I suppose this entire conversation is retroactively null and void, how convenient for you

old good, new bad
>we've
been over this before

>>74392911
This was always about the appearance and how smooth it looks. You tried to switch it to being about "accuracy in tracking", which isn't even relevant.

>>74393005
>This was always about the appearance and how smooth it looks
I'm the one who started the conversation.
>>74390696
>Miko and others are exclusively 3D and they still can't figure out how to make their home 3D accurate and smooth.
>accurate and smooth
>accurate
That said, you cannot honestly want to argue that Holo's 3D is "smoother" when their mouths clearly jump between a small set of presets and their eyelids regularly stutter.

>>74393164
Smooth = used by a holo

>>74393164
>I'm the one who started the conversation.
That doesn't matter. You can't just assume that every model you like accurately represents their expressions and the ones you don't like don't. You can't see any of their actual facial expressions.

>>74371118
rigging quality is directly proportional to how much time they're willing to give to the rigger.
for better or worse, agencies have a schedule and can't wait a year just to rig a single model.
moreover, agencies probably don't pay the maximum for every model.

>>74393287
Cop-out answer because you can't admit you're wrong.
So obvious.

>>74367511
>They are a multi billion dollar corporation
proof?

>>74393380
That's exactly what it is. You tried to deflect, got caught, and are trying to cop out.

>>74393355
Top riggers usually only take a month or two.
The model art is what takes the most time.

>>74372009
the only real difference I'm seeing here is more control points in the cheek and eyebrow areas and desu the amount of rigging work needed to make them work vs the additional expressiveness provided is not really worth it

>>74367511
At first, was impressed with the rigging done with many indies. But after a while, realized they have the same smooth bounce and motions. As if all done by the same rigger. Clones of each other. Back to Hololive, their motions are all them. Has more personality.

There's no good anime in the west. It says it all. The Amerimutt idea of improvement always fucking sucks shit in all entertainments.

>>74393520
esoteric cope

>>74393612
Were you perhaps watching a bunch of models done by the same rigger?

>>74367511
2Ds are fine. It's the 3D cancer that has to disappear.

>>74393738
it's true that a indies love to trendchase, even when it comes to riggers

>>74393767
Half of the people here can't even tell the difference.

>>74393738
Maybe. Is there a popular rigger that does most indies?

Gura for example refuses to update. Says it has character.

>>74391625
Miko and Korone - They look fine, am I missing something?

Meat - Something about the 3D looks awkward and I really can't put my finger on it. Sure the eyes are dynamic, but the rest is....stiff? Not a fan to be honest.
Lala - That's a really cool model and insane rigging, so points for that one.
Shin - I really don't see where this is better than Miko or Korone, if not actually being worse. Also if you hadn't said this was 3D I'd have thought it was just weird L2D. It's pretty flat.

>>74393808
There are a lot of riggers who are pretty common. The most common right now is probably KevinX. Other popular ones are 2wintails, Dya Rikku, Cillia, and the Iron Vertex team

>>74391124
>>74391405
>seething so hard he replied twice

>>74372009
This belongs to the uncanny valley, it looks disgusting

>>74370619
I must be the only person here that likes Fubuki's new model.

>>74394096
You're not. The eyes are much better.

>>74389820
>Useless if you don't ever use it.
Sora, Miko, AZKi, and Roboco don't even have 2D models.

>>74394096
It's literally just old good new bad
It's an improvement to anyone who doesn't have brain damage

>>74372009
If the rigging can properly register even wacky motions like this, then it's obviously going to look great when used normally.

Don't get why there's so many retards that don't realize this and seethe about the fact that it's capturing the weird faces the vtuber is making on purpose.

>>74389866
AI generated
>but-
no

>>74367511
I think they're fine and each model style has it's charm. I really dislike when everything bounces as if everything is a slinky or a disney animation. It can add more life to the model but if the slightest movement makes everything flip around like tits in High School of the Dead then it gets annoying real fast.

>>74394684
Any examples?

So do people genuinely care about the rigging when they're watching streams or is it just another pedantic thing for people who don't watch streams to complain about?

>>74395061
Stop making excuses for multimillion dollar companies.

>>74395162
Point out the specific excuse that was made, also name the companies that are supposedly being defended. I'll wait.

>>74395213
Not until you read the OP of the thread you're posting in.

>>74395061
Yes, people care about the tech and artistry that makes vtubing possible

>>74395296
Everybody read your bait post, OP. And no, I'm not going to watch your favorite indies.

>>74395162
For someone who dislikes them, you certainly are invested in their models.

>>74395365
Why were you pretending to be a clueless bystander just 2 posts ago?
>>74395376
Just because I can see that improvements can be made doesn't mean I dislike them. The costs involved evidently would not be very big if even indie shitters can do it.

>>74395539
Anon, you didn't know basic shit like Miko only being 3D. You obviously don't like them.

>>74395597
Don't project your samefagging on me.

>>74367511
>>74395162
you're mad that some boring ass indie has a overpriced model and still is a 1view?

>>74395539
I think their limiting factor is that all their rigging is done by a handful of contractees. They have like 80 talents and if every single one of them gets a new outfit like one or so years, the backlog would be massive if each rig only took even one month longer to make.

>>74389866

I fundamentally disagree with what some retards consider to be good. Simplicity is not the bane of quality, rather, simplicity only serves to highlight quality. The Japanese understand this at it's core. Best steak in the world? Served with light seasoning so that the meat speaks for itself. Best sushi in the world? Served with minimal seasoning to let the ingredients speak for themselves. The gooner need for overproduced models is no different than the Amerimutt need to slather everything in sauce. This is primarily becauise Amerimutts are used to substandard garbage which would be inedible without sauce, much like they are used to shit tier vtubers who need a model as a crutch
>But what about Holosummer?
The reason it's kino is that it isn't all the time. This is the same reason girls hate clingy men with nothing going on in their life - desire is built by an absence of something. The best burger you'll ever have is when you are starving to death, not after your 47th consecutive burger for the day
>but my gooner indie vtuber makes me COOOOOOOOOOM
The fact that so many of you let your dick dictate your entertainment schedule is why you are fucking miserable

>>74393612
>indies = clones
>holos = all unique like snow flakes with no uniformity at all
>non holodrone opinion: they all move like bricks

>>74393808
>Gura for example refuses to update. Says it has character.
Gura is a lazy twat.

>this recycled bait again
Hololive is above wasting resources on 2D models, unlike your 2view shitters.

>>74395597
That was me, dingus and thanks to another drone were up to a whopping four full time 3d users. How many Hololive talents are there again? I just want to check to see if the 86.34% totally not made up statistic is going to hold up, because right now I might be giving them too much credit.

>>74396459
>thanks to another drone
holodrone anon go back

I'm a 3D modeller for vtubers, does anybody have actual questions about tracking/rigging/tech because I can probably answer anything besides "what exactly does holo use"

>>74372009
holo dudes must be unironically cultist. like this is some of the most high quality while also not over the top rigs I have seen recently. super impressed, quite as hell wide smile with the teeth

but for some reason like a bunch of bronies are doing the
>pointy elbows
>2/10 would not bang
bullshit to pretend its not good

>>74367511
>Why can't they just spend the money to update their models?
Not sure what would the point be. To prevent bait threads on mongolian basket weaving forums?
The fact that Holo - and Niji - feature some of the most popular vtubers on Earth is plenty enough proof that rigging and tracking quality does not make any significant difference.
Might help smaller vtubers catch some eye to push their growth, but other than that, cutting-edge L2D technology is absolutely pointless.
Most indies just do it for vanity and/or lack of other options when it comes to investing into their job.

>>74401658
>why would they improve the product?
cover deeply appreciates your blowjob

>>74401909
It'd be a meaningless improvement. I'd rather see them make some improvement in the game perms department. Or their 3D tracking, just to stay on topic.
I gladly accept your concession, though.

>>74367597
KEKAROOO

>>74402436
It wouldn't be meaningless to anyone that watches. There's no downside to it.

Concede some more room in your throat to that cock you're sucking.

>>74402720
>It wouldn't be meaningless to anyone that watches
It would, and I already proved you why.

>>74402966
Again, there is no downside, so you're only defending it because constantly the dick lodged in your airway has caused you irreversible brain damage.

>>74372009
Hololive is the new Pokemon, they produce absolute low effort trash and yet their fans will eat every overpriced turd, their drones will lump to attack anyone else who does it better with a fraction of the money, and will defend their choice to produce dated cheap slop despite having more cash than most of the companies listed in Forbes.

>why won’t you spend your money on something you don’t need, Cover?
I’m beginning to think this thread was never about the models and was always just anti-corporate sentiment.

>>74403328
Cover doesn't need avatars for their talents?

>>74403404
Yeah, because they definitely don’t even have models or anything. Meeting your standard isn’t important. If it were, they’d be doing just that.

>>74403300
>Again, there is no downside
I don't know, spending a fuckton of money to periodically upgrade all their talents' avatars sound like a pretty decent downside to me.

>>74403591
>fuckton of money
Even no name indies can do it, so clearly it's nowhere close to that much.

>>74403688
How much would a top of the line rigging cost?

>>74403579
If the models are important, then improving them is also important.

>>74379523
Hell yes, extreme amounts of movement and expression gets clipped.

>>74371312
Going on the Mouse route would be impractical too, for the same reason why anime characters in Shounen always wear the same clothes - merchandising. You need consistency to market an IP.

>>74403939
top of the line 5k, much better than current holo is 3k

>>74403974
Not really, no. Those “improvements” are just a crutch.

>>74404343
Improvement is improvement. There's no objective reason for a viewer to be against it. You have got to be mentally ill.

>>74404221
mouse is an outlier from everybody else, including nearly all indies. she treats models closer to a real wardrobe since she can only wear pyjamas irl and she blows all her money on models and art contests for models because she doesn't have anything to buy or anywhere to go

>>74373292
I doubt it. Hololive is likely paying for models way above what an Indie pays for the same level of rigging and design. Because Cover is a company, and they need to buy the commercial right too, and that would be as or even more expensive as the model. From what I've seen when a rigger presents that they rigged a new model on twitter, the model always looks more bounchy and smooth on their presentation. So I think is safe to say that at least a good portion of the stiffness of the characters has more to do with the outdated tracking app they use, rather than with the rigging itself. I guess that upgrading that app, isn't as much as a priority for Cover.

>>74373514
And they won't ever do it. It would be a redesign if they did, and that would require changing everything, from her 3D to promos, merch, and figurines. Plus, Gura's model is iconic.

>>74401658
>cutting-edge L2D technology is absolutely pointless
Is that why both Hololive and Nijisanji make big deals out of every minor model update?

They literally do a whole song and dance with announcements and social media for something as simple as a couple new toggles or slightly improved rigging. I still remember HoloEN talents farming their community for fan-made assets to pin to their models when that was finally possible (about two years after VTS launched with the feature).

Must be real pointless for them to consistently make such a big fuss over minor improvements...

>>74404481
No, I’m just not likewise obsessed with whatever retardation you’re spewing. This isn’t the medical field, nor is it ballistics or industrial works. It’s entertainment; claiming to be dissuaded by the supposed lack of quality makes me believe you only care about form over function. Repackaging this as if it were function is your next move, given that you’ll tout the bells and whistles of an indie’s hyper-clocked physics or expressions, which does little to boost their entertainment value to anyone that isn’t there for form primarily.

>>74404973
>obsessed
Projection.

There is no reason to be against improvement. Treat your mental illness.

>>74404591
commercial rights aren't part of model or rigging fees, you're thinking of static art to sell or and entire character design
also I'm extremely certain it's the rigging rather than their tracking, stiffness from side to side is from movement limitations when a model is only rigged to go a certain amount. odd movement on the face would be from crappy tracking but large body/head movements being shitty are crappy rigging

>>74404303
Multiplied for the 86 members they have, that'd be 258k-430k. Let's say, what, every two years?
Sounds like a meaningful investment to me, considering how little they'd get in return.
>>74404884
>assets to pin to their models when that was finally possible
Yes, and pretty much everyone forgot about that 3 days after. Kinda proves my point, doesn't it?

>>74405051
Are you from the Adeptus Mechanicus or something? Your improvements aren’t really improvements.

>>74381641
What you ignore is that here we aren't talking about a few thousands of dollars in investments, we are talking about spending millions. Millions to upgrade something that will bring little benefits. Millions that could be used to produce actual content, media, merchandise or music, which has a far bigger return than adding some more expressions that no one would use.

>>74405337
They really are improvements. Seriously, take some medication. You're completely incoherent.

>>74405187
it wouldn't need to be every two years, rigging accuracy hit peak maybe six months ago. new rig metas like z axis are interesting but are more about the rigger having fun for gimicks rather than them seriously improving the model with things like vbridger support

>>74405403
Okay, you won’t bother arguing in good faith any more. You’re prattling on cyclically and refuse to accept anything but your own opinion.

>>74370619
Aqua is an example of an excellent revamped model, good enough for her to even choose to use it over the gamer cat hoodie model. Just looks like her original look but better. It'd be great if people got to see it more via her streaming more than a half dozen times a month, but hey, it looks great.

>>74403591
They don't have to do it that often, or at all if they did it from the start with newer models.

There are indies out there with years-old rigs that still hold up, and still surpass what Holo offers even with their newest models.

>>74405546
>muh opinion
You can't hide behind this word when you're acting completely deranged. There is no reason for you to be against them improving their rigging. You can't justify your standpoint and you don't even try.

>>74385308
Because Iron Mouse is solo. Cover is an agency. If one member get's upgraded, all of them need to be. And this isn't even a matter of costs, which are substantially higher for Cover, than are for Mouse - Mouse pays anywhere between 500 dollars and 5k on a new model. Cover's costs run them closer to 20k dollars per model when you include how much they spend on commercial rights too. So upgrading everyone would cost them into millions of dollars. But even if they had the funds, it would be difficult to do, because rigging a model takes hundreds of hours of work. And Cover doesn't hires riggers from Fiveer. They have their own collaborators, but there are just a handful of them available, as they have to serve a massive industry. So the schedule of the riggers and availability is also an important factor.

>>74406085
>Cover's costs run them closer to 20k dollars per model when you include how much they spend on commercial rights too.
What is this new meme? Are there any examples of indies that can't use their model commercially?

>>74388889
Is not, the rigging is excellent. Is the motion tracking that's outdated. Each time a new model is launched or outfit is launched, the rigger always show it off on Twitter, and is always smoother and bounchier than what we see in actual streams. Cover's motion-tracking app is nerfing those models.

If it ain't broke, why fix it?

>>74406085
>Mouse pays anywhere between 500 dollars and 5k on a new model
this proves you have literally no idea what you're talking about. most of her models are above 10k, the majority of that is the art

>>74390696
>Miko and others are exclusively 3D and they still can't figure out how to make their home 3D accurate and smooth.

Sure their models look good, but are you guys seeing how they move?
Tracking for 3D models usually blows 2D out of the water with ease but in Hololive they're just as if not sometimes MORE jank than their 2D.

I don't think those girls want to be in a motion tracking suit for hours at home while streaming. They just use their 3D model, with the same 2D motion app to do the tracking as is done with live2D, because is simpler and more practical for the girls.

>>74406085
>Mouse pays anywhere between 500 dollars and 5k on a new model.
Huh? I guarantee you her average heads well north of 15K. With all the toggles and features she gets, probably closer to 30K average if I'm honest.
Most of this cost is spent on the art by the way. Rigging probably doesn't go past 10-15K for most of her models.
>Cover's costs run them closer to 20k dollars per model
I don't know where you're getting this number but they're overpaying.
>commercial rights
I've shopped around for model artists and riggers, most of them include commercial rights in the cost of the commission. If it's additional, it's a couple hundred dollars max.

>>74367511
What do you think about nu-Fubuki?

>>74399207
>bouncy jello = high quality
There a reason why nobody watch them including (you). If you want other to take you seriously at least post your tier 3 membership.

>>74406386
NTA but he probably meant for the rigging job

>>74406402
>I don't think those girls want to be in a motion tracking suit for hours at home while streaming.
They don't have to be. Most indies using 3D models still use their iPhone for face tracking and optionally have some VR trackers for hands. Very very few of them have invested in a full suit.

>>74406614
ahh. well I'm sure she paid $500... four years ago

>>74406535
>5 canned expressions = high quality

>>74367597
I'm not a woman but I'm positive that fujos are utterly disgusted by this

>>74406535
Good morning sir.

Because it's not needed?

I love Pekora but I don't really need to know every little movement she is doing in real time.

>>74406535
good rigging has nothing to do with bounce. when people say indies have "better" rigging, THIS is what they're talking about, this level of expression. imo 2win is the best rigger out there though
https://youtu.be/cqVBXm-9TaM?t=2949

>actual riggers begging for a job

>>74406198
Is not that. Is about the costs of commercial rights. Those are generally a couple hundred dollars, or a fee the same sum as the model, while some artist undersell themselves and make it free. But, an artist will put less value on commercial rights for an Idie that makes money out of streaming and maybe sell some merch worth a couple grand, than they put on the model they sell to a company like Cover that will generate millions of dollars in revenue each year. So commercial rights are going to be much more expensive for Cover.

>>74391625
>>74393820
>Meat
You know that feeling when you're playing FPS with too high aim sensitivity? That's what's awkward with Meat's 3D rig.

>>74406426
>>Mouse pays anywhere between 500 dollars and 5k on a new model.
>Huh? I guarantee you her average heads well north of 15K. With all the toggles and features she gets, probably closer to 30K average if I'm honest.
>Most of this cost is spent on the art by the way. Rigging probably doesn't go past 10-15K for most of her models.
If you think that Mouse is spending 15k-30k dollars on a model that she is going to use for 2-4 weeks, you are out of your mind. Yeah, she is popular, but she is not making millions of dollars a year. Let's not exaggerate.

>I've shopped around for model artists and riggers, most of them include commercial rights in the cost of the commission. If it's additional, it's a couple hundred dollars max.
Yeah, for you... for an indie, who is likely to make no money at all, or very little out of that model. But for a Corporation like Cover, whose whole business model is on commercializing IP, and makes millions of dollars a year in revenue out of each model, and have their merch and image everywhere, they will never get commercial rights for less than 10k dollars, maybe even more. They may even have to pay royalties to artists if they make above a certain threshold.

>>74372009
I like these models. But I don't want to see Mumei, or Shiori, or anyone else from Holo like this for some reason. Some holos already have 3D and it looks so much better than these two models here too

>>74407691
she uses every main model for around three months, not two to four weeks. she's also around 500k/yr on just twitch subs not including bits/donos/sponsors so if you include those she probably hits close to a million for income
I also don't think her models are 30k but they're certainly above 10k with how many toggles she gets, she also now orders a nude base with new bodies so she can replace the outfits in the future with less hassle

>>74372009
Yeah I don't like this. I don't recognize that design but I assume that's snuffy because it's always her with the DreamWorks overly detailed models.
It just looks weird, like a cheap kids movie
vtubers are anime, that doesn't look like anime it looks like western CGI movies from 2004

>>74407691
>If you think that Mouse is spending 15k-30k dollars on a model that she is going to use for 2-4 weeks, you are out of your mind
If you knew what high-end models cost these days, you wouldn't be surprised by those numbers.

Here's a quick example. KevinX, who Mouse has used a number of times including on her most recent model, STARTS a full-body rig for $2400. With all of the features and toggles on her most recent Pudding model, that rig easily exceeds 5K.
https://www.kvxart.com/
That's just the rigging cost. The art ALWAYS costs more, and she has to pay Epebe who does her designs.

>>74405977
>you are deranged if you don’t care about cutting edge rigging
Ogey

>>74367511
Hololive most definitely should update MANY of their models but
>outdated
is the wrong way to look at them. The models are part of their identity and replacing them outright is gonna drive fans away only for self-satisfaction.
Nu-Fubuki has been (allegedly) very carefully tweaked so as to not be clashing and alien from the old FBK but we still have many people divided over it. On the other hand you still have Gura with her mismatched eyes sticking to her guns for fear of change.
And even debuting new talents with "top tier" models is going to be controversial when you contrast them with the other members in collabs; you simply need to do small tweaks to what already exists and not change for the sake of change.

Is a watse of time. Trying to make rigging better.
No matter what you do 2dlive has its limits it will never be as expressive as a real face. Anime has those dumb emoticon exagerated expressions for a reason.
They are just making rigging more expensive and setting the standard of models more higher than it needs to be to be able to read these little facial expression and trying their best to replicate it. It will never achieve it is a futile endevour.
3d models is another thing with more ways to improve but face still have the same issues.
I think corpos going for a nice but not exagerated riggin helps lower the entry level costs also. If all of holos had ultra exxagerated bouncing rigging like some indies do, it will make many loose interest in vtubing as the standard would be too expensive to afford.

>>74408333
What a waste of money

>>74408589
She has nothing else to spend it on. Ironmouse's money goes towards two things- the charity that helped her, and funding the indie vtuber artist scene.

>helps lower the entry level costs
I always complain about this. Vtubing is already too expensive if you want a decent model. Like if you dont have all this wihistles and gimmicks in your model you already feel left behind or that you aint doing real vtibing.

>>74408876
The indie vtuber artist scene specially for model and such is struggling. So that is a futile battle since models are becoming more and more expensive to make and rig.

>>74408589
I guess, if all you need is for it to move.
But most people want their model to do more than that.

>>74393987
Retard

>>74409115
Which is dumb most of thw time is for on gag and people dont ever pay attention to it.

>>74408944
Even low end riggers still spend like a month or more on rigging because it takes a ton of time at all skill levels, it's not unreasonable to want at LEAST minimum wage for your work. I have a close friend that does rigging and streams it, when you watch them work it's very obvious why it costs what it does. They were under charging for years.

>>74409298
And they still are and they still will.
My point is the more rigging is needed the more work and expensive is.
There is a point when it becomesa liability and we already passed it.
Making more complex rigging a standard is not making anyone favors. Neither to those interested in purchasing a model or those rigging it.

>>74408882
Vei and Shylily did quite a number on the benchmark price of the model arms race.

>>74389866
i fucking love Stack, bros.

>>74409597
The thing is, there will always be artists and riggers available in your budget. They may not be the best in the business but that's just how it is.

The people at the top tend to pass around the same big names but when you go down to smaller streamers you'll see a much wider variety of people working on models.

>>74394738
Shylily. It's nice for a bit but after a while it's moving nonstop.

>>74367597
/thread