/vt/ - Virtual Youtubers

>>70238396
It's a sign of an unhealthy mental state. This woman pretending to be an anime woman for money does not know or care who you are. You've never had a one-on-one conversation in your lives. You're not even acquaintances, let alone friends or in a relationship. She's an entertainer and you are a viewer consuming a form of interactive media that allows you to pretends to have such a relationship. Once the barrier between fiction and reality starts to break down and you begin to actually BELIEVE that she is your wife/girlfriend, you have become parasocial and are officially fucking insane.

>>70238396
Part of it is that people use strawman arguments by taking the worst examples and painting them as the norm when the word itself describes fairly normal behavior that you see even outside of vtubers and streaming. Part of it is that it’s become a buzzword to demonize something the speaker doesn’t like, like “idol culture” except it’s directed more towards the audience than a generalized xenophobia. Part of it is because Twitch fleshstreamers and their ilk have left a sour taste in people’s mouths and they’re unwilling to give female vtubers the benefit of the doubt.

The ones who denounce parasocialism are the same ones that have dropped thousands on a stranger. They only consider it parasocial when it isn't them doing it.

>>70238935
Parasociality does not mean spending money on a streamer retard. It's a state of mind, not an action or pattern of behaviour. If you genuinely believe you have a deeper connection with you oshi than merely that of entertainer and viewer you are parasocial, regardless of what you spend.

parasocialism is fine,but there is generally a line where if you cross it,it then becomes more of a negative but as long as you haven't crossed it who cares honestly?

>>70238396
Parasocial relationships are empty calories. It's okay to have them if they make you happier, but they shouldn't be your whole diet. Make sure you have two-way friendships as well.

>>70238396
This same thread gets made here every week. Just go consult the archives.

Because there's no situation where it ends well.

Being overly parasocial is unhealthy,
just being a normal, non-toxic, self-aware fan of something is being parasocial at a healthy amount.

>>70239572
I don't know if I'd even qualify that as parasocial or just healthy role-playing/fantasizing. It's about as unhealthy as playing D&D

>>70238396
its delusional thinking with potentially harmful effects, like prioritising the false, one-way creator-consumer social relationship over your actual needs & circumstances, especially social
parasocial relationships were bad when they were directed at traditional celebrities - and modern social media has only hypercharged the issue with influencers and influencer marketing
the reason its talked so much about in vtubing is because the chuuba is explicitly a character so there's an extra layer of abstraction (or the layer of abstraction is made obvious)
it also hits on so many tropes such as otaku culture being for lonely, obsessive men, the anime gf, the hikki escapism and all their associated dangers and social ills

also
>parasocialism

>>70238396
Being parasocial is bad for the person who's undergoing it. As it gives them the illusion someone will love them as long as they keep the money flowing which is what most of these vtubers do. They immerse themselves so much that a Vtuber talking to a man means they're getting cucked even though they may already be doing that behind your back.

It's good for observers like me. Because making fun of the mentally ill is based and them commiting suicide after their favorite chuuba ""cucked"" them will always be the funniest shit I've ever seen.

>>70238396
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzyQbfh4t_8

>>70239664
wtf?
I was referring to just being a regular fans of something, ie casual fans.
I swear, semantics is one of the main driving forces behind the development of new languages.

>>70238396
Streamers are based on parasocial interactions, the medium doesn't even make sense without it. It's not even necessarily a problem (except for yourself) if you have no real friends and this vapor relationship with an anime woman is all you have going for you.
Just don't pretend that it's healthy for you, that it's normal, or even worse, that it somehow makes you better than others. It would be the same as a 300 lbs woman screeching about fat shaming and calling you anorexic when you try and tell her that it's not actually good to eat 75 dino nuggies in a single sitting.

>>70239845
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EpZlgJbvY5k

>>70238396
Parasocialism is generally a bad thing because it's substituting a real relationship with a one-sided infatuation with vTubers/celebs/models/TV personalities. In general, that's bad for humans - online friends and "waifus" are not a substitute for physical interaction with real people and face-to-face relationships. We are built for in-person interactions.

This is the theoretical problem. In reality, most of the people who are parasocial, especially with a vTuber or a streamer, usually are unable to find a girlfriend or boyfriend in the first place. While it's unhealthy, for many people with no prospects, it's better than having literally nothing. In the US, about half of all Americans are unmarried. While some portion of them are in between relationships or in a relationship but not getting married, many of those people have zero prospects and will probably never find love. I guarantee that if the marriage/dating scene in developed countries was healthy, vTubers and parasocialism would not be nearly as big a thing.

With that being said, the people screeching about parasocialism the loudest are usually feminist Twitter addicts who just like to bully male nerds for fun. They're the same people who freak out about sexy video game and comic book women and have pushed the trend of "uglification" of female Hollywood actresses. This is a very tiny group of mentally ill women, but Twitter lets them amplify their voices way beyond their actual numbers.

>>70238396
"Parasocial" per the original definition that is still the only one in dictionary and consequently used in colloquial conversation by people who have read an academic paper or two is neither a good nor a bad thing, just a thing that's inextricably part of the human condition. It can lead to good and bad outcomes both depending on how one lives with it.

"Parasocial" in the sense it is used in the colloquial discourses on the Internet doesn't actually mean parasocial, but erotomania which is classified as a subtype of delusional disorder. As a mental illness, it obviously hurts the person suffering from it and potentially also other people.

Of course, intelligent discussion on both topics is possible, but as long as people can't agree on definition of the word it is a fool's errand. And that is why we keep having these threads and never reaching any kind of understanding of anything much.

>>70239837
You reek of /mans/

>>70240101
An indie vtuber telling viewers that it's okay to be parasocial? That's how they make money. Of course, they want more people to give them money.

>>70240246
I am aware of the difference between erotomania and am aware that people don't discriminate between ordinary parasocial behavior and erotomania, but there are a substantial number of people who treat ANY parasocial behavior at all as "beyond the pale" now.

I don't think the unicorns who dislike male collabs, for example, are suffering from erotomania for the most part. They just feel bad seeing a girl they have a crush on flirting with another guy in front of them, even if they logically understand the vTuber isn't their "girlfriend."

>>70238396
You invest time, emotions and maybe even money into chuubas, but they barely invest back into you - therefore it's no replacement for social activities where people invest in each other roughly equally. Only be parasocial if you can still treat them as entertainment celebrities.

>>70240259
Every vtuber is fine with parasocials until they get doxxed.

>>70240671
>You invest time, emotions and maybe even money
Vtubers do the same thing in return though.

>>70240954
They invest them in themselves. Not in you as an individual.

It's a term used by people that are being subtly manipulated in order to perpetuate an endless cycle of misery. They tell these shut-ins and nerds to go out and make real friends, except real friends are a lie crafted by an underground society in order to farm more suffering and despair for their twisted, sadistic desires. Then these shut-ins will inevitably retreat again, learning that trust and kindness only exists in humans when it's convenient. After being used up and discarded, they search for connection from the safety of their own home again, until the process repeats. What underground society is profiting off of the negative emotions of humanity? That's something you'll have to find out yourself.

I don't care if people want to be parasocial, the thing that pisses me off is how vocal they are about it. Either you're bitching and whining about how someone is ruining your date, crying because your chuuba doesn't want to deal with your garbage anymore, or jizzing your pants over how amazing your wife is.

>>70240259
Did you watch the video? She brings up other points besides that. Like how a parasocial relationships can go both ways. I interpreted her argument to mean that that even normie casual fans technology have parasocial relationships.

>>70241258
>What underground society is profiting off of the negative emotions of humanity?
The Committee of 300?
Blackrock?
The Rothschilds?
Bibi Net&Yoohoo?
Barack Obama?

>>70241266
Maybe if your wife was as amazing as my loliwife, you'd be jizzing too

>>70241402
I did. Did you watch the one I linked?

>>70238396
Semi copy-pasted thread so I'll just copy-paste my previous answer

it's not inherently bad but the reality is that most people are too fucking emotionally retarded to handle a parasocial relationship without falling deeper and deeper until you've completely lost yourself eventually so a lot of people denounce it entirely and say it's the concept itself of parasociality that's bad.
Also worth noting that a parasocial relationship doesn't actually mean "a relationship where a celebrity tries to milk their fans with affection" like most retards on twitter seem to think but I'm playing along for the sake of clarity since we all know what we mean anyway.

>>70238396
around the same level of delusional as being attached to a fictional character and imaginary friends imo
that is, fine and even healthy in small to moderate doses

>>70241459
>Jizzing your pants
sure
>telling everyone next to you about how you just splooged all over
O-ok buddy?

Why are people who manipulate mentally ill people treated as victims whereas the mentally ill being taken advantage of are seen as the villains

>>70241789
I’m being taken advantage of voluntarily

>>70241480
A year ago, around the time watched the video I linked as well.
Rather than a disagreement, I think this is an issue of semantics.
Overly parasocial vs Parasocial

>>70241429
2434

>>70238396
> This whole thing reminds me of when anime was more niche so you'd see comments like "haha chinese cartoons those japs are so weird" whenever something became popular enough to enter the main stream.
real

>>70241870
Sure. There's a distinction between a drinker and an alcoholic. But it doesn't mean alcohol consumption is healthy.

>>70241886
kek

>>70241701
Next you're going to tell me that you wouldn't molest your wife in public. Pathetic Puritan

>>70241992
Not exactly, the lowest level of parasocial is simply habitual consumption of content another person produces & scales up from there.
see other posts on this thread like >>70240246
You’re talking about at atom sized whereas I’m talking about planck units

>>70242485
>You’re talking about at atom sized whereas I’m talking about planck units
Why would you talk about such tiny units?

>>70241992
>>70242485
i'd argue parasocialism goes far deeper and it's the catalyst for "socialism". you have to have some preconceived notions about people to interact with them at all. these are the same mechanisms except in the case of parasocial relationships you apply them to fictional characters (under the classical definition).
a person devoid of this mechanism would be some kind of autist that just takes every word at face value and values strangers equally as family.

point being yes parasocialism is good in moderation. explicitly good. a more apt comparison would be to drinking water and drinking too much results in water poisoning. please remember the people killing themselves and suffering about their oshi cucking them are 0.001% of the population.

>>70243121
I feel like you're conflating multiple things, but I'm not versed enough in cognitive science.

>>70238396
Please don't be parasocial. It ruins your life when it all goes horribly wrong. I used to think it would never happen to me and I got suckered into it.
It did with me and a small indie. it fell apart real bad and they called me out over it. I couldn't take it any more and self destructed over it all. I ruined my life on the internet over one person.
I'm still extremely depressed every day. I don't go anywhere, my head hurts so much, I watch a few minutes of a vtuber before changing tab because they don't deserve me as a fan.
Everyone who used to talk to me won't do so any more. I struggle to watch vtubers these days because I don't want to fall down the same hole. I have nothing else to move onto so I'm stuck.
If you don't want to have your hobbies absolutely wrecked over heavy guilt and nothing but isolation, don't get close to your oshis, don't throw them your money either.

>>70240954
At best they invest in their audience as a whole, and if you're watching a mid-2view or above you're just another face in the crowd.

>>70243355
i probably am, but also i'm being quick and dirty with my explanations too. not really in the mood for big paragraphs and linking stuff.

>>70243121
>a person devoid of this mechanism would be some kind of autist that just takes every word at face value and values strangers equally as family.
I feel personally called out.

>>70243465
For me it was actually a corpo

>>70238396
I don't know what parasocial means but Haachama is my daughter.

>>70243737
What happened?

>>70243465
so yeah, don’t go overboard

>>70243868
I was a beloved memory of her community but I'm very mentally ill, sperged out, probably made her pretty uncomfortable, burned bridges and have largely just been slowly getting worse since it happened.

>>70239837
You’re a terrible person. Kill yourself

>>70243355
i think i can put it another way. all social interactions are based on limited information and require guesswork. parasocialism is defined as making a "wrong" guess but you do need to keep guessing. people make many wrong guesses about other people all the time and it ends up a good thing, a sort of social lubricant. when both people assume they like each other, they end up actually liking each other. meaning wrong guesses are good too when they're pro-social guesses (assuming someone is a friend rather than assume someone is an enemy), as long as you don't stake a lot on that guess.

>>70244005
They had high hopes of me fixing my shit too...but I fucked it up over and over again. I wish I just walked away before it got way too toxic, the warning signs were there but I never listened.
Now I have nothing to enjoy...because I'm fearful of everything. They didn't deserve me going down the deep end. And I feel bad for everyone else that they told them about me because they enjoyed having me around. But I got blacklisted as an extremely parasocial and clingy schizo so it was the end of me and all my internet activities. Even if I have a new account (and not watching them obviously), the pain is still there. I have nobody to talk to, to play games with, or anything. The people that used to do all that with me for many years walked away over all this shit.
I don't want to kill myself but I have nothing else going for me, the only thing stopping me is that I'm too much of a coward to put a rope over my neck and I would probably fuck it up and end up more brain damaged anyway.

>>70244402
I'm pretty much the exact same in all of this

>>70244402
have you tried not taking yourself so seriously? all of this is just you beating yourself up pre-emptively out of fear others might do it, which is pointless. go back to that community or to a new one if you really want to have that. people will not treat you as badly as you think, they don't care as much as you think.

>>70244951
I'm the other guy but after simply trying to apologize to people they were a lot harsher than I expected

>>70245100
time is much more effective than an apology. i would bet the more time passed between the incident and the apology the less harsh they would be.

i've fucked up so many times in my chuuba community, but i keep coming back and it all settles back into the status quo

>>70244224
Take your own advice.

still better than nothing

>>70238396
It only becomes bad if the vtuber reacts to it. Let me be parasocial in peace and stay the fuck out of my dms or you're in for a hell of a ride

>>70245100
this....I wanted to fix stuff up with them and they got angry at me instead, all I wanted to do was feel fine around them again, I'm such a fucking idiot, I just want to go back in time to last year and not piss them off
>>70245444
for me I shouldn't have tried to apologize, if it was clearly a problem that couldn't be fixed, all I had to do was unfollow and leave their server, but I wanted to stay around....I let myself drown in such a toxic place
>>70244951
I take myself seriously because I lost more than just this one chuuba, they told so many others about me, and that word spread to others who knew me and turned on me immediately and refused to speak to me ever again.

I hate myself so much. If I wasn't a coward I'd be a pile of ashes a long time ago. Not just because of what happened but other stuff too...I don't deserve to have friends, or anyone to play games or watch stuff with. I'm just a defective piece of shit without any talent who sees what others are doing and wish they could have done all that years ago. It's too late for me, I deserve to be dead but I'll have to wait a very long time before I get that wish.

>>70238396
Parasocial relations between vtuber and audience are the foundation of this entire sphere. The only thing that makes them bad is that the audience do not immediately execute vtubers that break character. When there is an extralegal force that lethally forces vtubers to stay in character then the true heaven of anime girls will be one step closer.

>>70238633
If you have a good life you wouldn't be watching vtubers. This is entertainment for leftover men that have a hard time making friends and even more so getting any kind of attention of women. They may be making loads of money through mind numbing shit like programming but that wont give them the traits that makes someone desirable so they are still considered failures

It's a massively asymmetrical relationship that is very different from how humans have evolved and socialized since the dawn of mankind and it does not meet our needs. Most who participate in it would not admit that it is a consolation prize, a way to compensate for having insufficient, if any, meaningful relationships with the people in their physical proximity.

>>70238396
Teasing with no intention of providing satisfaction is an awful thing to do to anyone.

>>70245936
yeah sounds like you have far bigger problems. develop a positive relationship with yourself first

>>70239308
To add to this, one of the factors that make vtubers (and streamers in general) a bit more complicated than traditional parasocial relationships (like those you see with bands or actors/actresses), is that the former can answer in a way more direct way and considerably more often, so there is a level of permeability in the interaction that seems to allow for the faster creation of those intense feelings you see.
In a way, I wonder if it's not better to compare these kind of parasocial relationships to fast food, rather than empty calories. You get some nutrients out of the deal, but you really shouldn't depend on them for your survival and wellbeing.

>>70240562
Never thought about it so sanely but yeah that is pretty much it. Ruins the whole cute girls being cute when theres some stupid faggot there with her that isn't me

There is no reason to watch vtubers other than being parasocial.

>>70238633
>actually BELIEVE that she is your wife/girlfriend, you have become parasocial and are officially fucking insane.

That's not what parasocial means, you fucking retard. If you were sad when Michael Jackson or Tom Petty or another person you don't know died, that's parasocial.

It's just having empathy for a person that doesn't know you. That's it.

>>70244402
Yeah its really hard to leave because they usually wont just let you fade away in peace. Guarantee you she will be stupid and dm you something stupid like she misses you or something. If you are a vtuber don't fucking drag on something that is obviously over

>>70247171
This one won't be DMing me anything unfortunately. My old accounts are long gone. It's me who dragged things when they were clearly over, I was the worst one in this, not the vtuber.
I just wish I kept my grievances to myself and just walked away. Had I done that, I'd have probably found someone new to enjoy. But now I can't in case they know them, which was very common.

>>70238396
It's because she WILL betray you no matter what you do
The right mindset is to learn how to enjoy cuckolding

>>70238396
Because you're emotionally attached to a fake persona

>>70247411
You should try seeing a therapist if you can anon, talking to a neutral party can help a lot to move past things.

>>70246252
Delusional, flirting is the best thing in the world, better than sex

>>70247411
Yeah obviously the situation is mostly your and my fault but i wish the vtubers were more aware of what is going on and put some boundaries and told us straight how things are. There is no way they look at our behavior and go hey this is totally normal and fine i'll play along with him. Some wont even understand if you try to warn them that this probably isn't a great idea

>>70238396
It's only wrong for men to be parasocial to female vtubers.

>>70247509
As long as they do it with other women i would enjoy. Too bad most vtubers seem to be straight

>>70238396
Depends on the degree. It's natural to have some degree of parasocial feelings for actors or comedians - near everyone was sad when Robin William passed for instance... ...or maybe Dakota Skye...

But if you're falling in love and pretending they're your SO, then you're in trouble. It's bad for you, and it's bad for the chuuba. It puts you in danger of having your heart broken, and it puts the chuuba in danger of having their heart stopped. Chuubas who cultivate GFE/BFE clearly don't realize the level of danger they are putting themselves in. Even if they realize the degree of psychopathic attachment some of their fans have, they seem to forget that 4chan has tracked down cat killers with only a blurry image of a mug. It also isn't really worth it as the unicorn fanbase is completely undependable, as just about anything can make them abandon you in a rage, such as coming within 1,000 feet of a male.

When one of these EN chuubas finally does get themselves killed and it hits the mainstream news (and we've had several close calls), we're going to see a huge pushback in the west, which fundamentally can't put up with Japanese idol culture, where the idols are basically dolls who aren't allowed to have personal lives during the prime years of their life. The boomers will finally take notice, and boomers, legislate. The whole industry may very well be regulated out of existence.

So while a little empathy is natural, perhaps even a good thing, unicorns are a risk to the whole industry. Granted, so is driving your talents to suicide while sending hate their way as we see so many agencies doing, which seems to be a much more common danger with the same potential end result.

>>70247736
I just hate it all....I just want none of this to have happened...

>>70246379
I have nothing positive to live for...
>>70247628
If I had the money for one I would have a long time ago. Wish I never spent it on chuubas.

>>70238396
being parasocial is good, just dont hurt yourself or anyone else.

>>70239837
Bicorn sama... I KNEEL!

>>70248834
The second paragraph is a serious danger with small indie vtubers. They haven't yet learned the hard way how to act professional and may even flirt with the poor dude that may not even have gotten a greeting from the grocery store cashier. That shit is going to break him but to the girl it was just a casual interaction

>>70239837

>>70238396
Being "parasocial" means you know they exist, but they don't know you exist. You've better not have read a history book, or else you're a parasocial freak. Fiction too, those fictional characters don't know you, freak.

>>70254711
Cope

>>70238396

>>70238396
We don't want someone going to Mumei's house and setting her car on fire. Best to nip it in the bud.

>>70252812
I hurt myself real bad. And I hurt others too who walked away from me when they read what that streamer said about me.

I hope one day I'll be able to move on from it...but it's not going to happen any time soon.

>>70257556
Tell us

>>70247517
>fake persona
go back

>>70240715
>every woman is a whore behind the scenes
sorry you feel the wrong way about stuff

>>70260891
not every woman but definitely every woman doing gfe. by definition they're pleasing many men for money

>>70238396
it means haachama is cute

>>70246017
>If you have a good life you wouldn't be watching vtubers
Using these kinds of axioms are reflective of you more than of anyone else.
You are already being generous assuming the average faggot that watches vtubers is making bank or some sort of misunderstood genius. Following your premise, it should be no wonder why people consider parasocialism bad
>no friends
>shit life choices
>only immediate family cares for him
>copes with vtubers
I mean, it's just one misstep after the other.
Now assuming you're an otherwise introverted young man watching vtubers, parasocialism is bad because simping is bad (to most men), explaining this to your parents will probably worry them, and most of all, because people use the word to mean extreme degrees of parasocial behavior. Why do you use the word "cuck" to describe anyone that watches a vtuber that collabs with males? Well, that same logic is what drives normalfags into equating "parasocial" and "vtuber watcher" with "depressed friendless loser that has never had a girlfriend."
So to recap:
Most men would look down on you for simping, and the only sympathy you'll get from men is from other vtubers watchers like you, and even then if you're /here/ you're more likely than not very parasocial, with extremist views of what a vtuber should or should not do.
The average woman will either feel sorry for you for watching vtubers, or find you weird. Perhaps this is a step up from outright pathetic when compared to normalfag men.
Even among anime fans they'll find you weird, the ironic animefags (i.e. twitter/positivity fags into vtubers) will find you weird for being so obsessed and the "black pilled" ones will call you a cuck for pretending 3DPD can compete or is better than 2D.

The rising normality of parasocial relationships doesn't make this any less pathetic.

>>70238396
its the only reason vtubing exists. If you feel nothing towards the chuuba, you wouldn't be watching. There are a million better things to watch or do, you only watch because its a cute girl you like. That's just the way it is, whether some people will admit it or not. There's always someone else that sings better, plays the game better, draws better. You watch because you love her in some way.

>>70238396
it isn't

Parasocial just describes the relationship between any public personality and their audience. There's nothing wrong with it.
However, I think what most people mean to express when they talk about "parasocial fans" or "parasocialism" is that gachikoi are cringe. Which is true.

People who hate "parasocial" connections are just ironic zoomers who can't actually care about something without being uncomfortable.

>>70261244
I'm sorry that your IQ is too low to be capable of romantically loving millions of people as a singular gestalt like my oshis and also like me

>>70269739
youre a slut mate

>>70238396
I dunno. I just watch and think girls are cute,

https://files.catbox.moe/56e8z3.mp4

>>70276727
>https://files.catbox.moe/56e8z3.mp4
based take.

>>70265452
> You are already being generous assuming the average faggot that watches vtubers is making bank or some sort of misunderstood genius.
He did no such thing. You do not know how to read. (So it is no surprise that you also do now know how to write.)

>>70238396
I just jack off, really.

>>70278088
Jacking off to porn is being parasocial.

>>70276861
See>>70246017
>They may be making loads of money through mind numbing shit like programming but that wont give them the traits that makes someone desirable so they are still considered failures

Illiterate catamite.

>>70278110
I unironically felt a lot of shame I jacked off to vtuber porn. Like I was at the point of no return.