/vt/ - Virtual Youtubers

>>702088
Yes, you should be studying grammar, kanji, and vocabulary.
>I want to approach this efficiently, if not optimally.
The best thing to do is actually doing your reps instead of wasting time figuring out the best way to study.

I personally wouldn't take any Anon's advice on here, unless they are willing to show me a picture of their N1/N2 JLPT certificate.

>>702088
When i started i tried to go for a pure kanji memorization with grammar and sentence structure learning, for some people it works, but for me i felt it was too slow and the words weren't sticking.

Then i decided to actually learn kanji individually while reading and i felt words started to make more sense because of it.

It depends on the person. Try for a week or two different approaches and see what works best.

Bottom line, when it comes to kanji and vocabulary there's no end all be all method.
Grammar is the easy part and you will learn it as you read.

>>702186
I have n2
Do I get a pass
I'd have n1 if I cared to take it

>>702088
The US state department says you're going to need over 2000 hours of pure studying to learn japanese. And that's people getting paid to learn it. That's over 4 months of literally waking up, studying japanese for 16 hours, going to sleep, waking up, and repeating.

Wasting effort on trying to make it more efficient is pointless, since you're going to learning this for 2 years on average. You might as well just dive the fuck in and start grinding. Grinding kanji first means you'll be able to pick up vocabulary a little faster, but learning vocabulary with kanji will mean you don't have to waste time grinding kanji. Which is faster? In the end it's probably a wash. And if it's not a wash, in the grand scheme of things it'll just make it 2100 hours instead of 2000, so what's the difference really?

>>702088
Always integrate kanji with vocab learning at least. Writing it out in proper stroke order will help you remember it. You're not going to make sense of kun'yomi and on'yomi without example vocab so you'd effectively be learning a bunch of symbols without touching the language.

Also the vt/djt/ thread is still up.

>>702088
how old are you? If over 30 forget about it, you're too late to get into it

>>702373
I disagree, while basic N5 grammar is pretty straightforward, there are concepts like animate / inanimate - existing / having being one in the same - self-wish / other-wish - the many facets of giving and receiving, and these have further complexities in N4 concepts and beyond, none of which has a direct cognate with English. Grammar isn't as hard as learning / reading Japanese vocabulary, but I wouldn't call it easy either.

>>704161
Aprofessor I knew in his 60's started learning Japanese in his late 40s. Worked well for him.

>>704161
Don't listen to this Anon. Age does not affect language learning in such a dramatic way, and it's been debunked many times. Being a child or teenager certainly has its benefits, but that's also due to various different factors. You're never too old to learn a new language unless you have some kind of mental defect such as alzheimer's.

>>704161
this is literally just a cope by lazy boomers

>>702088
>I want to approach this efficiently, if not optimally.
Which means you'll spend the rest of your life arguing with people on the internet about what is the best way to learn Japanese instead of studying.
Here's my advice, all the materials presented can be downloaded from /int/'s DJT resource repository:
-Learn Katakana and Hiragana, it'll take you a day for each and you'll understand japanese phonetics after it. Tofugu's guide is good enough, JapanesePod101's videos on YT will do the job too.
-Learn how to use anki and set premade decks so you can have a tool to help you to remember all the stuff you are going to learn.
-IF you can handle korean mmo-style grinding, get Remembering the Kanji and grind Kanji for 3 months - kanji is complex and trying to absorb it all as you go will make it harder for you to remember stuff, as it'll be too much information at once. RtK focuses on ensuring you can make sense out of Kanji and can remember it. If you can't handle it, skip it, it's not a requirement even if it'll ultimately make your life easier.
- Alternatively use the RRtK anki deck, it'll cut the quantity of kanji in half by focusing on those who are more frequently used., but because you're not writing them and not working on recall (as the goal is only to recognize them), your learning will be slower and it'll take the same time to learn half as many kanji. Again, If you are not good at it grinding, skip it it (unless you're going in without text books, then you're fucked).
-IF you want a more structured approach to learning, get Genki 2nd Edition (you can download it from /int/'s DJT resource list) and go through it using TokiniAndy's youtube videos. Anki decks for review.
-IF you are averse to text books, get anki and start grinding the core 2k deck (or Core 6k) , RRtK and the Tango N5 deck while reading through Tae Kim's guide to japanese grammar.
-If you need help with grammar, TaeKim's guide and CureDolly (on youtube) are good.
-Actively consume japanese media as much as you can, since you watch Vtubers, you should be good on that department, don't neglect on the rest of your studies to just consume media though.
-Once you're gone with the first volume or at least finished core 2k, Start reading stuff, there are list of japanese stuff that's good for beginners out there, google it.
-Work on rounding up skills, if you skimped on Kanji, now it's the time to start working on it concurrently with your reading.
Keep in mind that since you are self-studying, what dictates the rythm and speed of your learning is you, your capability of learning and retaining information and your study habits. The average Japanese learner will take a quite a few years to be competent enough at the language (JLPT levels N2 and N1), so if you're in this, you're in for the long haul - and be wary of anyone who says otherwise.
Good luck.
>>703161
While I agree with the poin, there's one tidbit that needs a correction.
>2000 hours
That study by the State Department says it's 2200 hours of CLASSROOM study.
It's assumed that for every classroom hour you put 3 hours of self-study.
if you put 4 hours of study a day, everyday, It'll take you six years to reach fluency.

>>702088
My recommendation would be to begin with grammar, sentence structure and vocabulary. For kanji, start with the 80 N5 characters and learn all of them thoroughly. You will immediately encounter words that contain kanji outside of this list however. When you do, focus on learning the vocabulary, not the kanji. There will come an appropriate time for you to learn every kanji so don't try and cram each one you see into your brain as soon as you encounter them. Remember that you need to know a vocabulary of around 700 words to pass N5 versus only 80 kanji.
And while >>704870 has a point about spending time figuring out how to study instead of studying being negative, mindlessly grinding away at your reps will only lead you to brick walls and bad habits. When you sit down to learn any skill, make sure the time you spend is focused and meaningful.

>>702088
>Should I focus EXCLUSIVELY on learning kanji
imo, no. You should focus on learning words, and you will naturally learn the kanji as you do so.
> or should I integrate kanji memorization with grammar and sentence structure learning?
Again, I don't think that's a good approach. Learn kanji+vocabulary together, and learn grammar+sentence structure together. These two things should be studied in parallel. Learning Japanese is all about getting on the grind and staying on the grind with the intention of never stopping. You want to work as hard as you can to get to the point where studying is fun as quickly as possible. There are a solid 4 months of hard work that must be put in before you can even really enjoy the most basic, simple media. The reason 99% of people fail to learn Japanese is because they can't make it through this period without getting discouraged or burning out. It is the ultimate pleb filter.
t. passed N1 in December 2018, started studying in August 2016.

>>702186
>t. endless N4-kun
But I agree
>>704161
loser
>>704870
I agree with most of what this anon says about study materials and methods, but his numbers about how long it takes are absolutely bullshit. I could hold most conversations after a year and a half, and was certainly fluent after 2 years. I estimate I put in between 2.5 and 4 hours of study a day, and I did so while working on my degree in Electrical and Computer Engineering. I'm about to graduate now. Maybe it takes longer for brainlets and that's where the state department gets their numbers, but the idea of 6 years to fluency is absolutely ridiculous as far as I'm concerned.

>>705398
Did you take the N2 at all? Was the N1 the only test you took?

>>705398
can't i just take japanese classes and learn it that way
i like structured classes and shit

>tfw you're mid-30s and too depressed to learn anything

>>717411
same

>>702088
Is the picture of manuscript of玉音放送?

>>717338
You can take Japanese classes obviously but you still need to grind the hours.
Back when I was at school, english was an obligatory subject and because my classmates didn't put in the hours in anything resembling english they speak like cavemen to this day.
Take Japanese classes but don't delude yourself thinking that it's the only thing you need to do,

>>717338
Although taking classes setup a halfway decent base. I would say that it was pretty inefficient. The benefit is that you will be able to practice speaking / writing / reading Japanese with other people which can be kind of hard to do outside that setting if you are not a social person.

>>702088
I'll show my English studying history.
I did intensive reading until I can parse English sentences at glance. I gradually switched from easy book to hard book.
Then goes to Extensive reading.
At the same time, I heard easy peasy English news(voice of America.) repeatedly with a manuscript. The most important part is you should use REALLY easy one. In this section, You can use your 推し's clips.But don't use English subbed.use Japanese subbed or not subbed at all.
My problem in English is writing and speaking. So I can't advice about these skills.
I can't even know when to use "a" or "the"

>>717962
You use "the" when you're talking about a particualr thing. "I lost the keys to my house" for example is a specific set of keys.
You use "a" when you're talking about something generic. "I'm buying a candy" for example, it could be any candy.
I hope you continue to improve with your english anon.

>>717962
advice is a noun. advise is a verb.

>>718082
>>718371
Thanks, dude

>>717962
are you from east asia. just shitpost on /int/ all day long and shit on anyone you hate. do it for years, and then you can be always called white sexpat or private chavez every time you post. its the easiest way to learn it.

understanding the difference between a and the and how to use them isnt that hard. the troublesome thing is idioms. they are absolutely inconsistent and both ones with an article and without it exist. fyi english is a globohomo shit language that isnt useful anymore.

>>718735
No. The autists from my country are ranting all the time and I don't wanna be their crew.

>>718853
dont give a shit about them. also no /int/ poster cares about whats going on there. this goes for japanese language learners here as well, but its like a shitpost training room for everyone. you can do whatever you want there. its unironically the best place to improve your english skills. you can learn actual non-awkward slang, memes, and cuss words, by wrestling/fucking with someone else. if you want to master how to use "fucking" for instance, /int/ is the best place. you cant do it on twatter or reddit or youtube or normie sites like lang-8.

at least this is how i learned the basics of english. i was also posting on youtube sometimes on reddit tho.

>>702088
kanji are not an alphabet you just memorize and then you start learning the language.
don't be those guys who start japanese with isolated kanji study and only start to engage in japanese after months of kanji only to discover they know 0 Japanese because kanji learning is not Japanese learning and then quit.
learn words instead. they will have kanji anyway.
also anything you will read in the beginning will have furigana so it's not like if you don't know a kanji you will be fucked.
now if you are super autistic and can learn all 2000 kanji in two months maybe it could be a nice strat to start with kanji but 99% of people can't.

>>721596
I just bought the Remembering the Kanji vol 1 book. Did I fuck up?

>>721698

no but unless you can finish it fast don't let rtk be the only Japanese study you do.

>>721955
I heard I was supposed to grind it for like 3 months...

>>722012
learning kanji in isolation is a MISTAKE
at the very least learn a couple words with each kanji and do normal grammar reading study on the side

>>722086
Only problem would be the Kun'yomi and On'yomi shit. I've heard Kun'yomi for individual kanji and On'yomi for two or more clustered kanji though.

>>702088
in all my years of studing languages, one common problem of language learning is not grammar, but vocabulary. overtime you will get use to the grammar but to express your ideas better you will need tons of vocab, so my recommendation is to start learning the most common word now, and 2200 is the bare minimum, with this you can at least comunicate and watch children cartoon, but if you want to read magazines, newspaper or books you will need to know almost 4000 kanjis.

>>722208
so to concentrate on minute shit I need about 2200 words while for book reading I need about 4000? I better get to it

>>722282
and remember, each kanji has 2 pronunciation (on-yumi & kun-yumi) and the best part is that each pronunciation has its own meaning and some of them have multiple meaning. So the sooner you start learning kanjis, the better

I tried to find a more systematic way to learn Kanji at first too, but quickly found that to really understand the reasoning behind it one would basically need to learn old Chinese. Grinding vocabulary is really the most efficient/useful way IMO

>>722370
I have to learn two (some times even more) pronounciations for one kanji? Wouldn't that take ages given the amount of kanji out there? Is that really effective?

Literally just spend a couple months at the start learning the kana and grammar then do your anki kanji reps until you know like 2000 then just watch vtubers and read manga and books

>>721698
No, just do it and don't be an autist that stays on RTK forever.
Just do like Heisig says, draw the kanji, create a mnemonic aide (i.e. a little story for each one) or use the ones he gives (if you need help coming with your own later in the book, just use the one's Kanji Koohi autists made) and move to the next one.
Keep a pace of 20 to 25 per day - if you feel burnt out, lower it, but don't stop.
Review as Heisig instructs, but instead of making manual flashcards, since you don't live in the 70s anymore, use Anki or KanjiKoohi to speed up the proccess of review - both are free
>>https://kanji.koohii.com/
>>https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/2009196675
I can't recommend Kanji Koohi enough, it will do the SRS job and select the one you get really wrong/wrong frequently for re-study. It has a load of stories made by others if you have trouble creating with your own or Heisig's are too obtuse for you.
If you don't have 100% of retention, that's okay, even 75% of retention at the end (it'll more likely be around to 90% but let's assume your memory is bad) means you can readily identify, assing meaning and recall over 1,500 Kanji.
Godspeed, anon.

>>722208
>>722282
Bullshit.
The average Japanese person leaves Highschool knowing 2,196 Kanji (called Jouyou Kanji).
That's after they expanded the list twice in the past few decades, meaning most Japanese know less than that.
College educated Japanese students may know up to 3,000.
Anyone knowing more than 3,000 Kanji is an academic, a classical literature scholar, a language autist who wants bragging rights or a college educated Chinese.

>>723119
damn, thanks!

>>723119
Why not just use DJT's recommended anki set

>>722282
He's right in that you're going to need vocabulary, but I don't know why he's conflating that with kanji. I doubt the average Nip knows 4000 Kanji since the Kanji Kentei Pre1 pass rate is only 20%(that's 3000 kanji). The jouyou kanji certainly won't be the end of the journey, but I'd say it's probably more like another 500 that you'll encounter often enough that you'll have to learn.

Vocabulary wise he's off too, you're going to need 5000 words to get anything out of reading at all, and 10000 to be comfortable. The average adult of any language knows about 25000 words.

>>722434
Kanji come in two forms, either as word in of themselves (ex: 水, mizu, or water), or in the form of a compound of two or more kanji (ex: 香水, kousui, or perfume). If it's in a compound it always uses the onyomi. Kunyomi are the kanji as words in and of themselves, so it's just vocabulary at that point. If you need an english equivalent to get your head around, consider that we use water in english, but we also use aqua in more complex words.

>>723517
If the anon is doing RtK, he should focus on getting through RtK quickly - that's the entire premise of RtK. You set things aside for a moment in order to focus on Kanji.
Once he gets into the next stage of study, which is where most of DJTs stuff comes in.