/vt/ - Virtual Youtubers

>>5733468

because she's probably the weirdest member of hololive in her natural, off-camera state

I tried being a saviorfag for her and was bored to death. Matsuri is unironically more entertaining even at her worst

>>5733468
Shes just too cute to stand out. Most of her gen had to go full degenerate or perverted to stand out FBK did the meme thing but other than that shes just like Aki and Mel

>>5733468
Kill yourself i seethe

Why did reddit abandon her?

she's got some gems
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fqjcg2uRYs

I just can't understand her appeal, she even pulled the whole "Wahh I have no subs" schtick and she still fell behind everyone else afterwards, no one seems to be engaged with her, respect her or even mention her

>>5733468
Shes pretty fun to watch when shes not playing fucking Ark, that last horror vr game she played was fun as hell

>>5733468
Her songs are better than Moris I dont know what you talking about

why isn't her username in Romaji? it limits her growth and visibility on youtube. she'd probably be at 600k subs right now like Roboco if she had her name in Romaji, it's hard enough to find her as is to newcomers

>>5733468
Most of the time I forget she exist, but recently she grew on me. She's more sexy than I thought.

>>5733468
oh fuck you

>>5733592
Hmm..

It's Susan's fault.

She doesn't interact enough with the newer holos in my opinion.

>>5738852
Whoever comes next should just be paired with an older member who might be falling behind sub wise. For collabs and such, and since newer members get a shit ton of subs, and people like Aki have been doing this shit for 3 years, both would gain from this

>>5733659
Mel leans into the cutesy idol shtick but is also funny in her own right without being incredibly vulgar or lewd. Aki on the other hand, I don't mean to talk shit to any Akiheads here but I can't really identify a notable character trait other than "nice" "sweet" etc. If that's all you can think of a person that's typically just a backhanded way of calling them boring.

>>5738852
She gets along well with Ina.

>>5733468
ikd but shes run her another channel on twicas. which is a very good attempt.

>>5745670
A forced duo never works it might fool the audience but it won't last long.

because you're a retard who unironically wants basedface screaming reaction channels

she's very witty and makes clever jokes in a chill way

>>5733468
I think shes the only Holo confirmed married and it's like common knowledge among the fanbase. So it makes sense that shes not really going to have any groundbreaking content. Shes busy being a wife. She gets a lot of out being a Holo for minimal effort. Just be happy for her.

>>5733468
I like her but she plays way too much ark, which is one of the dullest games

Who?

>>5733468
I guess you're a person who only watches clips

>>5745670
>>5746631
Actually I agree, maybe not forcing duo collabs but maybe if they assign a senpai to a new member as a sort of mentor could be a good idea

because she doesn’t like vidya

>>5746731
She chilled out some on the ARK play. She still does an occasional stream, but it's not multiple times a week like it was. I think Aki has trouble finding a fun niche she can enjoy and that viewers enjoy.

She's a JP vtuber, being bland is the expectation. Only a tiny handful are actually charismatic or interesting, the rest just get by on cheap gimmicks.

>>5746727
Literally everything I know about jp otakus suggests that they should actually go crazy over married chubas.
Yet they don't.

>>5733659
>Shes just too cute to stand out
>>5733816
>respect her or even mention her
>>5745831
>Mel leans into the cutesy idol shtick
>>5746973
>because she doesn’t like vidya
>>5747178
HOLY CLIPWATCHERS BATMAN !

>>5747324
disgusting french redditor. begone.

>rightfully call out a holo for being boring
>OH MY GOD YOU ARE A CLIPWATCHER!!!
>YOU MUST SUBJECT YOURSELF TO DAYS WORTH OF BORING STREAMS SO YOU CAN SCIENTIFICALLY CONCLUDE THAT YOU FIND IT BORING

>>5748835
I imagine her roommate is pure fucking seduction.

>>5748835
She should really lean on her dancing more. Competitive vidya games aren't her thing.

>>5747884
>He admits to being a clipnigger
go watch gura and pewdiepie and fuck off

>>5750260
When did I say I watch clips?
I know Aki is boring and it has nothing to do with clips. Aki's streams don't even work as background noise.

>>5734340
Roboco seems to be specifically increasingly catering to EOPs though, so maybe they have different strategies? Gaijin piggu money is pretty good though.

My whole impression is that this is a hobby to her and she's happy where she is. A lot of Holos are working double streams 6 days a week but Choco just goes at her own pace

>>5733731
hmm

>>5750617
>Choco

>>5746727
she lives with her mom. Or worse, her mom lives with them.

>>5750104
But anon, dancing means 3d and 3d means space.

>>5750617
Choco... she played APEX for over 18 hours this week. SHE IS BRONCE. HOW?????????

>>5752040
She's gold, not bronze

Consider this the ultimate cope, but I imagine it must be pretty nice to have an oshi who only gets the occasional numberfag or shitstirrer going "wow why is she so boring?" like once a month or so instead of constantly having like 20 different threads in the catalog about what she ate for breakfast

>>5733468
I would watch her but her design is hideous in very way. This levitating tails idea isn't cute just retarded.

>>5751995
Right. She's Japanese, which means she lives in a fucking box. With the social distancing that they're being mindful of, the other girls would probably be reluctant to join her for a dancing stream.

>>5733659
>but other than that shes just like Aki and Mel
when fubuki is playing is when she is at her worst
when she is singing/asmr she is at her best due to doing voices and general comedy

>>5752040
Anon, the other day she played 22 hours of fucking Apex and then she played Dead by Daylight for 2 hours with Roboco, she clearly has nothing much to do. Why do you think her fanbase are begging for someone to fuck her?

>>5733592
It's korone.

>>5752436
>>5733468

*rapes yous*

Aki is a boomer with boomer humour and boomer mannerisms.
She doesn't stand out because she literally has the disposition of a pleasant grandma

>>5746731
For me this. Lack of variety in games. Ark is boring to me so I lack interesting stream to watch.
>>5733593
This happened to me too.

>>5733468
Honestly I think her design has always nerfed her hard. She literally just looks plain. Not offensive or bad, just plain. Kind of sounds like it too. Her voice isn't bad but it's not particularly uniquely weird or attractive or cute. Unlike others from her time like Choco and Mel she was never an ultra-sexy design either so just didn't have much to lean on and hence has always dwelled around the low rungs. Her hair gap things also just look odd. I'm sure her fans love them but clearly to most people they're just weird.

Due to her utter average-ness in basically every metric, it's hard to sit down for the evening after work or school etc and think "I'm gonna watch this plain girl be inoffensive and tolerable for like 4 hours" vs someone just outrageously fucking cute all the time like Korone or Aqua, or outrageously entertaining with bombastic nonsense like Peko or Rushia. It's not like people consciously evaluate Holos out loud like this, but mentally she just kind of falls between the cracks when people are checking out who's streaming, because many of the others all are more exagerrated in some way so attract people more into some specific aspect somewhere between cute/comedy/sexy/GFE etc.

I suppose lastly her taste in games just doesn't pull in a lot of interest. In other words Ark did her no favors for all that time, and it feels like she's done very little the past like two months besides either Monster Hunter or ASMR. So her variety isn't great either thus she doesn't really give herself the opportunities to stumble into new things that would prove surprisingly entertaining and build hype around her.

It doesn't help that most of her content isn't even on Youtube, where people are looking for it.

>>5734175
damn right, so you are aware of this song of hers too? god fucking beautiful aki

https://youtu.be/IN0KT2ABM10

She has a calm demeanor that's hard to sell when she isn't doing ASMR, singing or dancing. Speaking of the latter... why hasn't Cover tried to show off rhythm games like Beat Saber, Just Dance and others using their 3D tech?

Because she actually acts like an adult and apparently Vtuber fans can’t handle that. They’re like kids who have to hear loud noises to stay awake.

>>5755535
I just found about this, anon, so thank you.

Despite me not always watching her. I really like her. To me she reminds me of the one really chill co-workers from work where you can drink and share stories and talk for hours. At least for me she's the only holo id go to if i really just want a really chill relaxing stream. Plus imo shes a good singer

>>5755535
holy shit

>>5756096
>>5756858
there you go

>>5733468
I watched her a bit during the Usaken Fes.

Her face looks like a shovel in L2D. I know a lot of their models aren't great, but hers is throwing me off,

The hair thing is weird, but I can get over it. Her normal design is plain af, but I like her black dress.

Don't have much else I can weigh in on since I've hardly watched her.

y'all should go get a covid test, because one of the symptoms is a lack of taste.

>>5745831
do you even have a social life anon

>>5755889
COPIUM

>>5755127
This.

Plus her schedules is erratic. I like Aki but she could really use a refresh in aesthetics and content.

>>5755889
Lol big true

>>5755127
This, except for the aesthetics. Goth Aki is pretty hot.

>>5755889
This.
It's a reflection of how shallow most audiences are than anything to do with the girl herself.

>>5746973
There's multiple girls that barely like/play video games, and they still do way better than her. Haachama was playing a few hours of Minecraft a week, if that, before her break and she's in the 1M club.

>>5748835
Yeah, dancing is clearly her biggest strength, and she's not great at other stuff. All the girls were obviously recruited for one thing or another: dancing, singing, streaming ability, gaming skill, drawing, etc. The ones that are better at multiple things are the ones that tend to be more popular. Her strength only shows up at the 3d concerts they do maybe twice a year though, so she's obviously not going to stand out much most of the time.

>>5748835
What are the chances that she might be into games like Just Dance and Beat Saber? Could this be the chance she gets at standing out among other Holos.

>>5755535
Her music has always been her strong point for me. She's a great vocalist, and some of her more easy-listening songs (like those ASMR songs) are pretty catchy. I wish she'd get more spotlight for the music.

>>5762183
>just dance
Man, just thinking of the copyright for all that english music...
Still, more 3D singing and dancing stuff would really benefit her. I wasn't the biggest fan of Nene, but seeing her post 3D has got me watching more and more of her. Something about the 3D movement and the energy it gives the girls is something that Aki could really benefit from.

>>5762217
Tomato Gummy in general is pretty underrated even if they're a big thing in the Indie scene. I think purely on views Aki and Fubuki are their most successful collaborators at the moment.

>>5762296
They can handle that shit the way that they do for all those other rhythm/music games. Make a list with the ones that you can play on stream and then work your way through copyrights if needed.

>>5734175
Comparing apples to oranges but go off.

>>5759940
Well not much of one now after moving states during the pandemic but I've always had friends, yeah.

Is this really the first time you're hearing about "nice" meaning boring? I thought it was a pretty common concept. Being kind is obviously a good thing but if you all you can think of when describing someone is that they're "nice" this usually means they're too plain to have anything else to mention. Either that or they're being shy.

Everything is already said by other anons, but as i think main problem is that Aki just not interested in streaming.
She was really active at the end of 2020 with all the plans to do more colabs, be more social try new stuff. But after a while she just dropped everything, i don't know was it some stuff irl or she became disillusioned after effect of that goddamn translated saviour fag clip ended.
Her roommate is also not really active.

>can only descrive Aki as "nice"
Oh and how fucking many newfags are here.
Her drunk naked colabs with Matsuri, erotic asmr, belly dance class, acoustic concerts, music instruments.
Aki is an epitome of adult woman eroticism and i want to fucking breed her.
And when she wants she can also be vulgar, especially in her 1st 3d concerts with other chubas. But after hololive became big we lost all of it.
COVER MANAGEMENT HATE

I really like her drinking, asmr, zatsudan, kalimba, utawaku and twitcast stream. Probably the most erotic hololive member for me. Her originals are also among my favorite.
She's not my oshi but is probably second on my ranking along with Nene.
Too bad there isn't enough rosetai here to keep a dedicated Aki thread afloat.
And also, I will admit that redditor did a good job saviorfagging back then to save her.

>>5763659
>I will admit that redditor did a good job saviorfagging back then to save her.
I would say the opposite, it's limited her growth and people naturally discovering her. She had great numbers for a couple of month but after saviour fags left it did more damage.
>Aki thread afloat
She has a really good discord, and since there is no real yabs and drama with her i think it's fine.
Although i haven't visited Aki server in a long time, things might have changed.

>>5752291
Nah I feel you - as a KFP, seeing 50 threads a day displaying fake outrage over the most innocuous things, makes me feel envious of Choco or Mel fans who might chill in 1 comfy thread a day.

>>5733468
>he doesn't know

>>5764346
Where are the Aki-Marine cock memes when you need em?

>>5750260
>clips, which are basically the reason we are talking about v-tubing in the first place(all of the girls became relevant through clipping) is now bad because it's not your super sekret club anymore.

Grow up, anonchama.

She's bland and insecure. Reminds me of Mio when she wanted to be more than Miso soup. Now she's in her zone unbothered and going slow but steady whereas Aki seems to be stuck in her own insecurities. That and she should also change her channel name. The game is all about getting more people to find you in an easy way. Having her name in Japanese is not doing her any favors. One of her strengths is singing so she should seek help from cover to promote her singing a little more. Even a singing collaboration with someone like Marine would boost her presence a little. Posting one of her covers on the main Hololive channel would also do wonders for her.

>>5764982
Somewhat agree, but i think Aki accepted her status and now just doing it for fun, hence we have infrequent streams.
She is probably focusing more on irl

>>5733468
the flappy ear things are fucking dumb
>anti-gravity hair holders
fucking what

>>5734340
That's the biggest limiter.

>>5733468
Her music videos are pretty good and I think her design is cute but everything else about her is just uninteresting. Not any recognizable clips of her around either.

>>5755127
I'd also add that her strongest point is her dancing, she is easily the best one in all of hololive. But that doesn't add up to much when you only get to show it off during 3D Streams which happen far too infrequently.

not sexy enough

She has a very nice giggle. Fuck you OP for being a faggot.

>>5767254
You clearly don't watch her.

>this stupid fucking board even shits on Aki
can't you zoomer faggots keep it in one thread? She's one of the nicest holos and go fuck yourself for criticizing her.

>>5733714
Not enough clips of Aki for EOPs

>>5733468
I think her model isn't that great to be honest

>>5746680
This. Her Japanese pun game is strong. But Clipwatching EOP will never know

>>5755127
Aki should go back to turbo autismo games like Kerbal.

I always thought she's an indie

>>5767290
No, I'm going to write a 69 page thesis in her video comments on how she shouldn't just post her pussy so freely on twitter.

APEX

>>5762667
A lot of people can be nice yet be extroverted as fuck.

>>5764346
i want the old (not old in age) aki back.

>>5763372
this desu
you faggots just don't understand the appeal of older women

>>5770626
Of course they fucking don't, at least 80% of this board are guaranteed under 18 zoomers except for maybe a couple regular threads here.
AKI LOVE

Yeah.
She is chill as fuck.

>>5770496
>>5763372
I hate Susan so much it's unreal.

I unironically think Aki has one of the best singing voices in all of hololive. I cannot understand why she isn't mentioned more often when people rank singing avility.

Her base design sucks.

It looks like a mismash of airport attendant (which can be sexy/mature if done right) with sone frivollous hair gear (which can be either cool or cute... Mecha ish).

And her face has that little sweet lady ish vibes they're going for, but the hair style... A bob cut (calm, mundane) with a double twintail (playful, ADHD) is another mismatch.

It's just all over the place.

She should also cater more to those who want a mommy experience because her face is perfect for that.

>>5733468
Aki is the perfect example that not everyone should be a "streamer". Yes, she is a lovely woman, but as far as content and entertainment are concerned she's not really cut for it. She's just the kind of woman that you'd want to hang out with just to make small talks.
I think it'd have been better if she just had her own dance channel or something, as it's something that she really seems to enjoy.

All of her idol points went to her hips too.

>>5748835
I adore those airplane ears of hers, but she falls too heavily on the "waifu" side of things

>>5761384
>COPIUM
Fellow rosetai, if you observe it pretty well, you should have known it...

>>5765220
>She is probably focusing more on irl
I somewhat felt sad after reading this part but fuck it, as long as it's for her own sake...

>>5765253
fuck you she is half elf and half airplane those are her ears

>>5777856
you retards dont know what youre talking about but you want to contribute because you think youre smarter than you are.

she does a shitload of twitcasting now because her bathtub streams are too NG for youtube. too many faggots talking out of their ass ITT

>>5747884
FUCKING CHICKEN

I'd say that she's great at what you can't experience through clips. Like literally, it all boils down to the sole atmosphere of her streams and on top of that her not so clip-worthy things like ASMR or dancing.

>>5748835
>>5733731
>>5764346
Pure, unadulterated hag energy.

>>5733468
She's busy getting buff.

>>5764686
you don't deserve luna.

>>5778968
>>5779352
To sum it up in some cheesy slogan:
People don't watch her because people don't watch her.

>>5779474
She isn't my Oshi though, nor am I wrong

>>5778968
Exercise bike now, but you're right.
Some fags don't get the appeal of comfy 'intimate' zatsudans.
Nice digital effects in the ASMR too, not just generic tripe.

>>5766707
Belly dancing really doesn't translate very well in 3D, and less so in 2D. It's like being a world class chef in a music concert hall. It is kinda sad. I really want Aki to incline but nothing really sticks.

Almost 1 year with my wife Akirose!

would you gently fondle her ponytails?

>>5747884
Can Kiara be more of a cunt?

>>5782627
I'm pretty positive you are just shitposting, but just in case you're genuinely retarded, that was a shop.

>>5733468
much less chance for retards to spam her chat

>>5780489
I kneel

don't be saviourfags anons, I like where she is

>>5778968
Is there a way to monetise twitcast? She could make a lot of money with those bathing/exercising streams.

>>5733731
SEX

>>5783663
Isn't her twitcast monetized?

>>5733468
she is average housewife that don't need personality, having sexy voice is not enough for me to keep watching her

next time make the Aki thread with more positive word
UNDERSTOOD ANON?

>>5780489
me too anon
AKI LOVE

>>5776109
she has issues with her throat, and apparently has asthma in addition, which makes her less available for constant singing like Sora, Suisei, Watame or Kanata, or a bunch of other holos

>>5764346
go back hornyposter

>>5746727
what? it is not confirmed anywhere she is married
do not believe everything you read on nip sites
she has 4 cats, thats the only thing confirmed

>>5778968
>twitcasting
>bathtub streams
I'm impressed. You're actually so fucking dumb that you don't even realize you just proved my point. Maybe try to process what you're reading before flying into your akyfag rage.

>>5785932
if you are not an akyfag then fucking leave
douzo

>>5785932
>not cut out for it
She is the top 1%
>she should make her own dance channel
Why, she is vastly successful? The top 0.0001% aren't a reasonable comparison.

>>5785932
>you don't even realize you just proved my point.
You didn't even make one, mr fedora tipper.

>>5785731
shhhh, let them think that, it's less competition

>not liking her unorthodox ARK gameplay

Anon I have bad news for you, she's not for coomers and we don't mind. I'm an ARK ojisan and I loved the hell out of her super latenight streams on Aberration, othet than that she's one of the top singers in HL

>>5754679
Korone isn't particularly bland but she's probably the easiest member that comes off as just trying to react hard to something. Her laugh in particular is incredibly forced at times.

>>5755127
>korone and aqua cute
peasant taste

>>5780489
I KNEEL

Her GFE doesn't do it for me

>>5805200
>Aki
>GFE
A-anon?

>>5805200
It’s not GFE tho.
It’s WFE to be exact.

>>5805200
go back, she does not do gfe
its only retarded eops spamming those kinds of superchats

there's too many big titty vtubers already

>>5733468
she mogs (you)r favorite indie when it comes to talent. Aki is a lovely presence and her varity content is among those I vibe the best with.
Just look at her song portfolio If you want to be impressed.
Her design and demeanor is a debuff tho.

>>5805200
>He isn't an NTRchad

Rose has a huge shot at success when VR takes off.
She loves doing 3D stuff, especially singing, and has experimented with VR singing.

I'd bet $1k that she'll be one of the first to do VR lounge karaokes, with VR band members and VR audiences.
Not to mention her design screams "Sci-Fi but chill".

Hopefully Apple's 2022 headset is good enough to bring VR mainstream.
I'm not buying Facebook's shit.

>>5755127
What does Rushia even do? I've never watched any of her streams yet she's #2 SC and 1M club. What does she do differently that would make me want to watch her?

>>5806900
menhera GFE or wife experience

>>5746727
>confirmed married
fact or rrat??????

>>5733468
Why are you so mean? Aki is a good girl.

>>5785932
you're the actual idiot here

>>5807292
rrat

All I need in life is Aki's Hey Baby and I can live forever

Everyone is bland until you decide to give them a chance. They then reveal their identities to you little by little. Of course, even if you watch a chuuba for a long time, there will still be a private part that they'll keep to themselves. Understanding that and giving them a chance until you find one that makes you think: "I want him or her as my oshi", is a nice thing about vtubing
Who's your oshi, /vt/?

>>5782421
I would tug on them and see if the portal reveals even longer hair.

>>5758786

/thread

>>5764686

Akai Haato

>>5779389

Logan's Run fuckwit

>>5806411
Oh boy you are trying way to hard and failing miserably

>>5805200
Who cares, none of them will ever actually be the GF you're desperate for.

>>5761384
Eager to prove his point about you being a kid?

>>5816193
Rushia

>>5818382
Rushia will almost certainly never be your GF either. You're competing with >1.2 million fandead

>>5818382
She's everyone's GF

>>5733659
>she’s just like aki
anon......

I WILL make Aki fall in love with me

>>5733468
Aki and mel are the first holo I jacked off to

>>5822583
Mel is actually hot though

>>5745670
They're already doing this because gen 6 is the sister generation

>>5823157
nice source bro

>>5812182
with what?
I hope you watch her if you say anything

>>5818382
>>5818461
>>5821719
She only pretends to like you guys, I'm the only one she loves for real.

Aki seems to be a really good dancer. Like what other posters have said, she should try to use it as an advantage and make it her unique trait by playing dance games. Give Aki your support bros.

>>5824189
I'm Rushia and I can tell you guys for certain that this dog is the only fandead who makes me want to pay them to go away

I have been a Rosetai for almost a year now and I can say that she is not for everyone.

The reason she is not popular is pretty obvious, she doesn't pander to the younger generations and let's face it, her 2D design is quite boring and one of the least visually appealing ones in holo, however, personally I love her streams, she projects an aura of calmness that no one else can plus her singing is godly so I will continue supporting her.

>>5733731
Damn, if she did more of this I'd watch her more unironically

>>5733468
Don't watch her streams but try to watch her songs/covers because it makes me feel bad when the view counts are low. At the same time though hololive low is still like top 80% of youtube so...

>>5752291
>Even her threads are boring

shieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet

>>5754085
Well if they insist I'll gladly offer myself for the task

>>5827892
All you have to do is put a bullet in Susan's brain.

Aki should be a JAV

>>5822607
Mel is hot, but she isn't sexy. Aki is sexy, but not hot

>>5831148
That makes no sense, but it actually kind of does

>>5806900
Rushia is a master at creating (intentionally or not) scenes of despair. You know what will happen, and yet you are compelled to watch her to see how she gets there.
Like whenever she aims to get a new animal in minecraft. They will always die after a series of unfortunate accidents.
Or when she sings, and manages to mess up the audio in an endearing way.
How she manages to propagate an aura of tech ineptitude that breaks everything around her.

Then on top of all of that, she has an amazing voice with a wide range. She's incredibly cute. And for the gachikois, she will spend hours reading out every superchat.

>>5763372
>Her drunk naked colabs with Matsuri,
The what?

>>5763372
If all that came back I would watch her

If only my JP was better, from the streams I've watched she really has that comfy chill aura I get from Ina, would love to be able to follow more of her content.
And from all I've heard she's about the most YAB holo out there, just doesn't show it too much on her channel. If she had a better way to express it, that could help her get some more exposure.

>>5733468
where's the pic of Amelia Watson?

>>5831148
Aki is hot

>>5833431
that is why you should watch Rushia if you like her better, there is no problem with that
the problem is with numberfagging retards

>>5831121
(you) should fuck off seanigger

>>5824115
NTA, but go back.

>>5828181
the less of you here the better

>>5827892
go back

watch her play Ark now!
a collab will be at 20jst!

>>5855885
>a collab will be at 20jst!
With who?

>>5833497
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDoG45OLEKQ

>>5733468

This implication is huge.

She's literally blonde in every way but I can see how some might prefer others in her steed.

Doesn't change the fact that she needs love like every being out there, not to mention she's based as shit.

>>5758786
>Y'all

I think Aki is cute and fun, I love her and she makes me feel good.

It's time to go nude

I don't care about bland. Her huge hair portal things are a massive filter for me.

>>5861803
Why though? I'm honestly curious.

>>5861803
The hair portals are actually attached to her pubes

>>5861826
They just look really weird to me.

>>5746498
are you drunk son

>>5861883
Well, I guess there's never accounting for personal taste. I find them at least interesting. they should try doing more with them.