/vt/ - Virtual Youtubers

>>49386907
Why? They didn't pay for it.

Start you own company and show us how it should be done.

Not understanding copyright? Unless they buy it outright, they really can't keep it when they leave the company since they own it. That's like saying in a comic company, that you get to take Spider-Man with you just because you did one of the best comic series of them before you decide to leave. That's now how it works. Though, I think they should give them the option to outright buy the character. They get money back since they can't use the character anymore and the vtuber doesn't have to start from scratch. That seems like a win-win scenario.

>>49387225
It's kinda useless without the vtuber tho. It'd be understandable if they got someone else to play it, but vtubers no longer really play a character that's not an exaggerated version of themselves, so it's almost impossible to replace the "VA"

>>49386907
>End the practice of graduations
No, its a must to copy every other company blindly

>>49386907
how did that work out for cyberlive and tsunderia?

>>49387543
I doubt any Vtuber would have enough capital gathered up that they would be able to make any reasonable offer against potential future gains on the IP.

Already happening, bro.

>>49387620
Literally only idols and vtubers (due to originally being an idol project) do this. Defending it makes you the weirdos, not the people calling for the end of it.

>>49386907
I think they should just have a way to buy the rights to the model.

Of course the pricetag will be high as fuck, but the vtuber will be able to keep their identity, while the company still gets a good amount to reinvest into a new model or other corpo stuff.

>>49387731
ok
how did it work out for them though?

>>49387725
so Pikamee can just fuckoff after her debut and go indie?

>>49386907
The fair and correct way it should be done is that the talent always has the option of buying the rights to their name and model, paying a price determined by metrics (based on original cost, further investment, estimated value of the character, etc.) pre-established in the contract when they sign on.
So the price scales with the talent's financial success with that identity and the amount paid is roughly set in stone at the point of hiring and can't be manipulated by the corporation due to any bad blood between the talent and management.

>>49386907
They can keep the models if they have the cash to buy out the rights. Simple as.

>>49387788
Yep. Nyan, Silver, and Vei have all proved that the promise of talent first and talent freedom exists and works as they said it did.

>>49387731
Vtubers weren't "originally" anything, retard, that's like saying books were originally something. It's a medium, not a genre.

>>49387858
Based and capitalism-pilled.

>>49387940
well damn
gonna give some thoughts to her with SC then

>>49387940
All 3 of those were indie before joining vshojo. Thats not how it works

>>49387225
>Why? They didn't pay for it.
Patra did pay to pwn her model because like >>49387560 said, the model was rendered useless for the company so why not let her buy it?
.

If it was really about your talent and not company backing then you should in theory still be successful with a brand new persona (see not Yugo).
Makes no sense for a company to just give up a design they commissioned, paid for, and advertised and marketed for years

>>49386907
>join vtuber company
>they finance and give you a free, high quality model
>quit and take the model with you

>>49388112
t. retard who doesn't understand the argument being made. Hint: Nobody said it would be a free rights transfer.

>>49388055
Go ham, bro. She's still the same girl as before, just purple.

>>49388070
While I understand your thoughts here, she's basically in the same situation as Nazuna, whom people (mostly retards here on /vt/) believe doesn't own her model. However, she designed it herself with feedback from her fans. It is 100% hers, and if Nazuna's model is hers and her IP and such, then so is Henya.

She had to leave Pika behind because it wasn't hers. What she has now is hers. All hers, and if she's not happy with the company she can take it and go and not renew.

>>49388101
>Makes no sense for a company to just give up a design they commissioned, paid for, and advertised and marketed for years
Selling the model to the person who wants it makes them money they would otherwise never see.

>>49388007
Shhh. Shhhhhh! Quiet!
Your logic is getting in the way of their feelings!

The only reason why /vt/ is so against vtubers moving out of corpos is because it sets a precedence that poses a threat to the Blue Dorito's brand since their reputation is built by their talents. this board had been mocking nijiniggers for being corpo bootlickers, but holofags aren't different either.

>>49388101
It makes sense because they have no further use for it. They're not going to hire a new actor / actress to pilot it and they're not gonna make new merch for it either. The only thing they continue to make money off is any views on the YT videos and that can't be that lucrative.

So why keep it? Just for the vain pride of not allowing someone else to use that IP to make money without them? I'd be fine with companies having a "buy out" policy, but that seems somewhat rare.

>>49388291
It's funny because you'd think that this board would be all for talent independence.

>>49386907
Nobshit Sherlock that's what everyone who cares for the chuuba had been asking for ages. Companies hold the absolute Power monopol over the characters, if they so feel like it the actual person behind the avatar can be left for absolutely nothing even though she is the one responsible for the companies success.

>>49388291
Fuck off Nijibeggar, and don't use Zaion's corpse to sell your bullshit either.

>>49387543
this, lack is retarded.
also an artist he should be happy when someone graduate and actually reborn as another chuuba, that means a job for artist to design a new character

>>49388335
*this site, rather
But this board out of all has some of the worst company worship in the whole site, worse than anything I've ever seen on /v/ or /g/.

>>49386907
Voice actors don't have rights to IP. That's ridiculous.

>>49388382
No, it's the opposite. If one of his children graduates, then he loses his connection to them... and his merch cuts.

>>49388240
Offers too much of a brand risk.

>>49386907
LMAO too bad Cover didn't let you buy Coco, Kekson.

Do you think Patra didn't have to pay to keep it?

I don't really give a fuck who owns the model. It's not like kson will be any different if she somehow bought Coco's model, or Sayu with Zaion. But I am interested in the revenue sharing after the talents bought the rights to their model though. If Pekora buys her model and goes indie, how will revenue sharing work for existing merchandise?
Let's say the Pekora's plum wine is still being sold, at that point how is the money split between Cover and the former talent Usada Pekora? Or if Pekora is in HoloEarth for some reason, will she be shitcanned completely from the Holoverse?

>>49386907
>join company
>they give you a model
>leave company
>they keep the model (unless you buy it)
Sounds perfectly fair.

>>49388454
This is not a "voice acting" gig. It's streaming. It's not the same thing and never was. In voice acting, actors and actresses can be replaced. In Vtubing, it has been proven that trying that shit is disastrous. The person behind the model puts the life into it, the soul, and is what the people who are watching identify with the model and what they eventually come to appreciate, love, and respect.

The model is a husk, a vessel to deliver the personality of the person behind it. Without that person, the model is nothing.

I smell Vshitshow shills.
You're as bad as the bugmen

Lot of cool spacing ITT.

>>49388494
Only by setting a precedent, and if it becomes commonplace the corps would be abandoned in five seconds.

>>49388335
In theory it should be a good thing, but it's very rare for a vtuber's content improving after going independent, and there are some pretty big examples of the opposite happening. Experience crushes theory.

>>49387543
If you leave Marvel, they can still make Spiderman comics without you. If you leave Hololive, at best they can release merch for someone who'll not stream under their name again
>>49387705
How much money does Holo make from Coco's vods tho?

>>49388494
Why?
Just slap a high enough buyback fee on the model, depending on initial investment, current earning figures and expected growth.

For example, with completely made up numbers, if Pippa wanted to buy her model and rights from PC she would need lets say 100K dollars.
If another lesser know talent like Panko wanted that, she would need 10K dollars.

Seems pretty fair for both parties.

>>49388612
>If Pekora buys her model and goes indie, how will revenue sharing work for existing merchandise?
Using only VShojo as an example because that's the only agency that has had major talents leave with their IPs, the general thought process is that whatever exists now or was in place while under contract would continue on as normal, but the talent could now make merch independent of the original org and it would be all theirs from the point of leaving onward.

>>49388217
We straight up won't know until either one of then tries to leave, they're a different case to everyone in vshojo

>>49388240
They couldn’t price a model high enough for the initial sale price to make up for the cons.
All it does is essentially spending years building up and marketing an eventual competitor and sending a message to the rest of your current and prospective vtubers that you’re just a pump and dump company. Go in, spend a year building a fanbase and fucking off after.
See Cyberlive and VShojo
If my company offered that I’d probably focus more on debuting new talents than supporting existing ones since investing into a talent that has little incentive to stay just doesnt make sense

>>49388834
They're only "different" because of previous corpo existences. Froot was also not a vtuber until VShojo launched, same with Hime. Nobody questions whether they have their IPs or not. There's no reason to be suspicious of Henya or Nazuna's situation at this time except to doompost.

>>49388335
/vt/fags don't care about talent. They worship the brand.

*taps the sign*

>>49388933
Froot has always been Froot and her brand existed before Vshojo, Nazuna has never been Nazuna outside of Vshojo and she did have a brand that could have been taken into vshojo, which is the only reason this argument is being had.

>>49388217
Nazuna would still quit being Nazuna if she ever chose to leave Vshojo.

>>49386907
They wouldn't agree to that because that would essentially mean letting the talent inherit most of their current viewers.

>>49388635
it's unethical, but you can still sell the merch out of retired vtuber.

you don't even need to pay their cut too.

>>49388890
you know sportsball players exist and they work exactly like that?

You are a small team, get a young player you paid pennies for, train him, he becomes a star player. Now he is too big for your team and want's to move on, you sell him at 1000x the price you got him for. Everyone wins.

The only difference with vtubers it would be that the players buying themselves.

>>49389077
Froot was a nickname, her IP has always been Bittersweet Apricot or just Apricot. The reason I brought her up, tho, is that some people were doing this same song and dance about her thinking that VShojo paid for her model and she didn't own it. That hasn't been remotely shown to be true, and people did it to Nazuna and now they're doing it to Henya. There's been no reason to suspect any of them couldn't leave with their IPs if they wanted to.

>>49389101
Probably would just go back to Miguel Neko, but she could keep it if she wanted.

>>49389176
The vtuber field would absolutely be more interesting if talents and their models could move around much easier between companies if they wish. It'd be fun to guess at the "drafts" that'd go on, and all the companies would make more money.

Some of you guys really don't understand risk management.

>>49389173
I would have to know the circumstances. Obviously, though, if a talent was allowed to leave whatever merch the company helped produce would still be under whatever previous contractual engagement was in place while anything the talent does afterward is theirs. I think that's fair enough.

What's the point of this thread? Each corpo handles this differently and has that stated on their contracts. If the talent doesn't like the terms then don't sign up.

>>49389318
Some of us don't care what companies have to deal with in favor of the talents who actually entertain us.

>>49388709
It's not how much money they would be making off what Coco already did, it's how much money they would have continued to make for the company if she stayed under her then-trajectory. For Hololive specifically, talents are too integrated into the brand to let them go. Ironically, it could work for Nijisanji, but it seems they would rather torch the building than lose an IP,

>>49389410
>For Hololive specifically, talents are too integrated into the brand to let them go.
In what way is this true?

>>49389297
Vtubing becoming more like sportsball would be a good change for everyone involved.

Companies and talents would make a lot more money and there would be even more fan bullshit going on.

You posted that twice. No one responded the first time.

>>49388088
Even if they can buy their avatar that shit would be very expensive, example if gura graduate and want to keep her avatar she must pay a lot for it because of the value of her avatar is so high because of merch and collab that is connected to her avatar

>>49389489
Most people watching Holos aren't fans of individual talents in Hololive, they're fans of Hololive. They enjoy the box. Coco and Rushia becoming irrelevant essentially overnight proves it.

>>49387434
Gladly. I'll call it Niggertranny. You'll support us, right anon?

>>49389600
So individually they're all painfully unentertaining?

>>49389489
All of the group advertising, merchandising, and events involving every member of the agency. Hololive's brand is a strong as it is because of how close they keep things together.

If you need your model to be successful after leaving the company, your personality was not the one fueling your popularity.

>>49389665
Yes.

>>49388834
>>49389077
https://streamable.com/ilwkbe

>>49389598
Of course, Gura would need to paid like half a million dollars for her model and rights. She is the Messi or Ronaldo of vtubing.
Some literal who like Ollie would only need a fraction of that.

>>49389767
Ah yes, I'll trust Vshojo's PR head representative on this.
NO cons btw

>>49389782
That figure is way too low.

>>49389600
Has this been proven? I mean with like a poll or something? I wonder what the talents think of that.

My only retort is that if this were true, wouldn't everybody be pulling in the same high numbers? If it doesn't matter who so much as what then everybody would be Pekora wouldn't they?

>>49389714
Well sure, but how does this make each character integral to the brand? We've seen talents graduate from Hololive and new talents brought in and the band just plays on without missing any beats. So, are the talents THAT integral to the brand or is the brand integral to the talents?

This idea would be nice, but it runs antithetical to the whole point of vtubers.

In many ways, modern online influencers occupy the same parasocial niche as the Japanese idols of years past do. Most independent creators monetize these relationships in some way, but without the high-control corporate structures that defined the idol industry. Belle Delphine can auction off her bath water, and Dream can merchandise his baby photos, all without some balding producer getting a cut of the profits. In the 21st century, no longer are production companies and record labels the kingmakers that they used to be, now anyone can toss a cover onto Youtube and let the algorithm decide their fate.

The success of corporate vtubing, and the reason that companies like Sony are so eager to get into the fold, is a response to the growing independence of content creation. Media companies easserting their control in the age of streaming. The vtuber is a composite product built from both an actor’s performance and a virtual avatar. And since the avatar is a work of art that can be made the property of a corporation - it forcibly shackles the performers to the corporation. The creation of a corporate vtuber is akin to the creation of a whole new person, one that the company owns. The company retains the rights to the avatar, character, backstory, all related media and conceptual works, and does not need the consent of the actor or pay royalties when slapping their character’s face on a lunchbox.

Letting go of a vtuber avatar is something that you can't do, because ultimately vtuber companies aren't financed through revenue sharing with their talents, like a traditional talent agency, but instead, through the total ownership and control of their virtual influencers. If Holo or Niji surrender that control, even slightly, then the whole business model comes crumbling down. Even when they have nothing do lose, and giving them up would be a purely positive gesture. Think of HoloCN, or Niji's various branch closures. Why didn't they just release the models and rights to the characters and let them go indie? Because it sets a bad corporate precedent. The instability and surrender of total control incurred isn't worth the significant goodwill gained.

>>49389397
Burger think just because they hired them, it automatically mean they have the right to buy their ip and preexisting merch deal.

Dont really care, I'm following my oshi to her roommate if she leaves

>>49386907
They can if they can pay and company judge them won't smear the honor of company.
Which disqualify Kekson and Miguel.

>>49389600
Sound exactly like blacksanji lol.

>>49389871
Make it a couple of millions then.
Hololive has all the figures for channel, they can make an informed decision on the price she needs to pay.

>>49390010
Not really true considering 90% of the company are shitters and half the company doesn't know anyone outside of their 10 person group

>>49386907
Losing the model is arguably one of the biggest reasons as to why corpo vtubers aren't going Indie. Once you allow them to leave with the model the talents are probably going to leave once they amass a loyal fanbase. Look at what happened with Cyberlive.

>>49389397
This. If you sign a contract saying you don't get to keep the model when you leave, then don't fucking whine when you don't get to keep the model when you leave.

>>49386907
LACK wants a 2view vtuber to have a partnership with a multimillion company. LACK also wants a driver to take the rolls royce when he quits.

LACK my hero.

>>49389884
Pekora just gets shilled more than others. Her numbers have nothing to do with what she herself does.

If buying out your character is expensive then it would be not worth it for most of them when you are guaranteed to keep some of your old fanbase anyways.

>>49388311
It doesn't make sense for a corpo that used the image of a vtuber for promotional work. Imagine that a corpo lands a exclusivity contract with Pepsi and put the image of the vtuber on the adds. If the vtuber leaves with the image and then lands in another corpo that has a deal with Coca Cola that would probably be a nightmare of contracts and dispute. Even if the vtuber doesn't join to another corpo, the image is linked with Pepsi and that brand power could be used in detriment of the corpo or the sponsor.

>>49390182
This anon is kinda smart

>>49388088
>so why not let her buy it?
probably because the companies don't want to deal with all the shit that might cause regarding people trying to scam cheap models, the legal asspain of merchandise that is tied to it and so on and so forth.
I've seen the costs our legal department rakes up just for trivial shit like someone needing to file taxes a bit differently because they worked from abroad, with stuff like merch involved it is probably not worth it because the vtubers could not possibly pay that sum anyway. so better to just not allow it outright and thus not giving anyone the motivation to come up with dumb ideas.

>>49390178
It's worth it to the people who value their own work.

>>49390062
Anon it's not up for sale to begin with. Cover would be out of their mind if they're gonna let Gura buy her character so she can use it to make another corpo rich and famous.

>>49389910
Basically putting your IP in the hands of unstable menheras is a terrible idea.

Besides if the vtuber really can be successful then they should be able to reincarnate and climb back up. Using the brand power of an identity that has a corporation behind it is a crutch. Every vtuber company that has allowed talents to retain the rights on their model has had mass exoduses. Keeping the rights of the model is the most powerful bargaining chip companies have over their talents and it would be silly for them to relinquish that.

>>49390062
more like a few dozen million
if the buyout were reasonable for the individual to pay then the company fucked up the contract
look at how badly Barcelona's plans were derailed by Qatar paying 250m for Neymar's buyout when it was set at more than twice the previous transfer record, a sum they figured was so outlandish that nobody would think of it
they learned from that, Messi's buyout in his final contract there was 1 billion euros

>>49389600
>>49389884
I think there's two factors at play here.

One is the old AKB48 model. When you market your group as a collective, and it grows big enough, even the loss of big personalities doesn't shake things up that much. AKB has churned through hundreds of members and yet the collective identity of AKB48 remains. It makes your entertainment company resistant to scandal and to members quitting, and ironically lets you give members a degree more autonomy - if you fuck up, we're still safe.

The other is yes, that many fans are fans of Hololive, and not so much the talents, whether they realize it or not. Hololive, and Cover, are entertainment groups, and they produce a product that isn't JUST virtual streamers, a la Nijisanji. In an interview with business insider, he's talked about his desire to make a virtual youtuber group that felt like "live anime", comparing Hololive to K-ON. Where vtubers on twitch are often direct and don't put on much of a facade, don't try any amount of kayfabe, Hololive girls have leaned more and more into character acting over time, HoloX is basically just an anime premise. They're 2D waifus brought to life.

And all this is dependent on the company. Not only do the company's resources allow them to create these "real time waifus" through expensive events and media, that cement them into a semi-fictional setting, but they also impose conditions on behavior that make them less "3DPD". How many times have you heard someone say something along the lines of "Thank hololive for teaching me that women are better off with strict moral rules" on this board?

Whether you think this is a good thing or not is up to you, but Hololive isn't just a medium for the girls to express themselves. They're the ones creating the product, and the girls are just an ingredient.

>>49389397
>What's the point of this thread?
Some idiots think 2view can join a large corpo, get a lot of sanalites paypigs and leave with them after 1 year. Also wasting a precious Holo slot. On top of that, that 2view should own her character IP.

Anything less than that is just criminal or corporate boot licker.

>>49388709
I don't think Coco's channel is monetized. YouTube would be making that money

>>49389261
>Froot was a nickname
Like Akai Haato's Hachama or kinda Friend's enemy

>>49388731
or they could just not do that, because it provides them with no benefit.
companies aim for recurring revenue, not for one-time sales. those aren't really worth a lot, especially when you're selling to an individual, which means a pretty low cap on the price you can possibly charge.
you're asking for companies to act against their own interest, which is just not happening

>>49390434
NTA but pretty fucking sure Coco had netted Cover far more losses than profits by killing the china market. Incidentally I don't think Cover is interested in Coco's vod ads profit. Cover would have deleted the channel if no one protests.

>>49390182
People change advertising partners all the time, anon. And the advertising contract would be void the moment she leaves the company. This would not be a problem. I've seen other vtubers, both indie and corpo, do exactly this with Advanced GG and GamerSupps. They're picked up and dropped as needed and nothing bad happens to either of the drink companies or the vtuber or any agency they represent. The fix is simple, using Coco as an example because why not.

Coco is part of Hololive, Hololive gets sponsored by Pepsi, maybe because of Coco or not because of Coco that's kind of irrelevant here, but Hololive uses Coco to advertise Pepsi which means Coco gets some cut of this because she's shilling Pepsi (or maybe gets no cut I have no idea how Hololive works with this shit). Coco leaves Hololive and takes her image with her. Hololive takes her off any future advertisements and uses someone else, say Fauna now, to shill Pepsi. Coco goes on and does her own shit, getting that big Coke sponsor (Coco Cola Mother Fuckers!) and both sides continue on.

It's like any celebrity that was sponsored by some brand but then the contract expired. No future advertisements with said celebrity's likeness can be made but the ones that existed aren't scrubbed from the universe. People all know that Michael Jordan was sponsored by Nike, and old adverts still exist, but nobody believe snow that Michael Jordan is sponsored by Nike (unless he is). Meanwhile Lebron James and other people are. Viewers move on, fans move on, companies move on. It isn't complicated.

>>49390225
They should have stayed indie.

>>49390645
Leaving China was a good move in the end. You can argue that some of their success is in part of them getting kicked out of China

>>49387620
It was the best outcome for them.
They were already doomed when the talents decided to leave, they at least closed with some more money for themselves.

>>49390380
ChatGPT go to bed you're drunk.

>>49390182
this.
I get the feeling that people who go "lol but they can sell it and make money?" have never actually held a job before.
for how much could they possibly sell it for the average vtuber, 100k tops? that's peanuts, lets you hire maybe one more person for a year, given all the social costs, extra admin costs and so on.
but if any legal dispute shows up, it will costs you orders of magnitude more to deal with that fallout.
it is an objectively awful deal for the company. it doesn't matter if the model will just die and won't make them any more money, because at least that way it also can't cost them any more money, which is the way riskier scenario.

>>49390688
They didn't do the same things back when they were "indies".

>>49386907
Only way to keep company assets if you didn't create it yourself or they bought the rights to the model from you when you joined is to buy it back and that price is probably going to be hard to negotiate to something that's easily afforded by these same people asking for it.

There is no way in hell a company will let you just keep the model for free, run around and create brand confusion around who's still in the company.

>>49390659
>And the advertising contract would be void the moment she leaves the company
More often than not it's void even before they leave the company. Hololive has advertised for competing brands several times.

>>49390327
>>49390380
Only people with brains here.

>>49390922
Right, it's a non issue.

>>49390765
lol A+ post I laughed aloud in a quiet room

>>49390659
>It's like any celebrity
Except it isn't. Celebrities, athletes, etch are not owned by corporations. Vtuber characters on the other hand are and it's up to the corpo whether you get to keep the model or not.

>>49387858
I'd love to see this! It might have a logistics problem for some companies branding, but it's a drop in the bucket compared to the goodwill people could Garner if they did this in good faith!

>>49390998
But that's exactly the point of this discussion. Should they be treated more like those individuals than as property to be used, cast aside, and not utilized again because someone wants to leave? Let them take it with them, put them under some conditions like not being able to talk shit about the corpo or something and they can have the model or whatever. There's ways to make this work.

>>49389176
But on the inverse, you got the big clubs just buying and parking a bunch of talented new players in that system too. Or even better imagine let's say all of HoloEN get split up into 6-7 different companies because they want a big name in their roster and might not afford all of them but a bunch of the smaller companies might afford to trade for one of them at least. Then you got a whole mess of who's the "property" of who later down the line.

As soon as talent trading get into the mix it'll be very messy and probably even worse for the talent in question.

>>49390659
It is complicated for the japanese bureaucracy. Also again the brands are not making a deal with the vtuber, they are making a deal with the corpo. See the sponsorship of the Central League with Nijisanji. They want the popular YouTubers in their team, don't want a newcomer of someone that are a second thought. Or worst seeing them in a team of the Pacific League weakening all the brand of the League.

>>49390290
>"Domo same desu, this is Gawr Gura from Vshojo with out weekly drunk watchalong stream!"
Lol imagine the state of /vt/

>>49391054
They could easily "make it work" but it is of no real benefit to them and could only potentially be a detriment to the company itself due to them losing leverage. There's just no reason for them to want to do it.

is it about hololive again? Most girls are happy where they are. I don’t think anyone is complaining in holo. Why are (you) projecting? Are you really that afraid of holo’s success? Suisei literally owns her IP too. Why isn’t she going away? Also flare would definitely fucking abandon her model of she is given a chance. She hates being brown

>>49391189
>She hates being brown
your proof?

>>49391054
I mean it's all in the contract. If the contract says that they would be treated as such then ultimately it's up to the individual to decide if they sign or not. I mean I don't really see any of the big corpos changing their stance on this so if the talent refuses the terms then they would just find someone else.

>>49386907
>ITT we fantasize about holos leaving hololive
>they never realized most holos still have active roommates

>>49386907
I am posting in this thread because I agree. A change is needed.
Maybe we can say goodbye to streams but not to their entire identity and personhood, allowing them to return for special events.

>>49389910
>success of corporate vtubing (in japan)
It's also why they're flopping hard in EN market as of now.
Here, corporate vtubing went from being the ideal, to being a choice, to being a niche for a certain audience.
The sure decay of holoEN, the utter freefall of nijiEN, small corpos (even Pippa and Rin) being completely dwarfed by modern indies, and VshojoEN losing its appeal over the indie scene it ironically nurtured, all point to a reality of the EN market being the wild west that disfavors domination from a company or from competing companies

>>49391054
Many corpo Vtubers literally leave their old Vtubing lives behind when they join. They join the corps on their own accord because they think that whatever they're offering is better than what they had previously.
As each Vtuber is essentially its own brand, the brand they develop under company X is its own entity. All of the administrative support, guidelines, and opportunities under company X is what makes them what they are and is how most get their success. The owning corp is undoubtedly a large part of what makes up a Vtuber's brand, so having people split off on their own and taking everything that was invested into them is just bad business.
They are free to carry on their past lives after they leave, but they're not taking all of the time and money that the company put into them while they were working together.

>>49390816
Their fault for joining a company that keeps the model

>>49391570
What the fuck are you talking about? Try reading the conversation you're trying to take part in before posting.

>>49390761
Glad it worked out. China yen is damn good but probably not worth earning. If Hololive grew extremely big in china then spoke a wrong word, stream chat and twitter will be living hell for Holos.

The damage that could be done to your brand by letting one of your IPs out into the wild will never be worth it to a big company. Even though the IP would be formally divorced from the parent company, everything they would do after would still reflect back on the original company and on their old co-workers because of public perception. So if they fuck up big time while representing themselves as that IP it can still damage the old company and those still associated with it. For a company the size of Cover or Anycolor, no amount would be worth it for an individual IP buyout.

>>49386907
Now that I think of it. The HoloEN contact is pretty fucked up for Cover. Imagine all five Councils are Sana and quit after 1 year. This will literally handicap the growth of EN branch.

Imagine leaving the best 3D facilities and support (new studio) with probably the best connection in the entertainment industry in Japan for “muh talent freedom” where you can just do all those things in your roommate account which in anyway not restricted even if you are competition (I’m looking at you milkiss and notmatsuri’s singing group). The delusion of this thread

>>49391862
>The damage that could be done to your brand by letting one of your IPs out into the wild will never be worth it to a big company.
THIS. Many anons don't understand this.

>>49386907
They won't do that, ever. Imagine if a top corpo talent left, kept all their shit, and then went on a self-destructive journey and people still link them with the company they were from. It's a PR disaster. Companies would rather just drop a person and the character design than to have it associated with them post-contract. It's just not how it works.

>>49391862
Lets assume Holos retain their character IP. All holos are seiso at first and act like pure whore right after they leave the company.
Holofans will realize all holos are merely vshojos.
(For those who knew Matsuri's history, can you imagine yab Matsuri would create without any restrain?)

>>49386907
>Pay for your own model
>have the right for your model
>join a corpo with your own model
>get fired from the corpo
>corpo takes away your model, your IP and all rights to everything you've ever worked with
phasecucks and pippafaggots will defend this.

>>49392416
>Steps to Get Rich
>1) reject marvel script, ask marvel to use your script instead
>2) now you own the character rights
>3) marvel took your character rights after filming was done
>4) sue them
Good luck with step 1 and your future business ventures anon. lmao

>>49392312
I would be ok with them retiring with their avatars though. Like if they reach a certain number of years of being a holo. They get to have the option to retire and own their avatar for good and for free. They can still stream and join 3D events at their option. This is my ideal situation.

>>49393151
>I
>my
What you think would be ok with and what you find ideal is irrelevant.

>>49393151
Why would the keep/own the avatar?

>>49392975
>Making a movie = livestreaming as yourself, behind an anime character
This marvel ip righs shit has been the dumbest comparisons you guys ever came up with.

>>49393151
That only make things worse. If some newcomer like Iroha leaves hololive with her model and makes a big controversy it reflects a little in holo because her image isn't that tied with the brand. But imagine if someone like Aqua or Subaru leaves and cause a controversy. Even if Cover said they are not part of Hololive anymore, their images are too damn linked with the brand. And that would hurt the corpo more.

This is kinda stupid. Aya Hirano will always be Kanata and Haruhi, but she doesn't own those characters. Same logic works for the Vtuber characters

>>49393226
I’m just sharing my fantasy bros. Holos seems pretty happy with how cover is treating them but it might not be that all the time.

>>49393355
Those characters don't live and die by having her voice them. Non-voiced content of them has been produced since.

>>49393291
If you limit your understanding to a movie example, it proves you still haven't understand anything regarding the topic.

>>49393355
Kanata, my beloved...

>>49391745
It's pretty standard practice with China. You're forced to have local partner to operate there and as soon as it becomes expedient they stab you in the back and take on the whole enterprise themselves.
If it were just the sperging antis it would have been one thing, but Hololive were attacked by their local partner in bilibili (and the local management).

>>49393151
I think a better solution would be this.
If a holo quits after 3 years, she can retain her character ip IF she refrain from using that character for 2 years. So less people will link that character to her previous brand if any yab happens.
The talent can stream as other character right after leaving the company.

This seems very harsh for the talent, but I cant think of other fair compensation for the company. As a company, I would rather pay a huge sum to my loyal and top earners upon their departure than giving them the character IP as latter could cause potential reputation damage. Reputation and trust WORTH a lot.
Also, you can earn money with reputation but you cant buy reputation with money.
There's no way Vshojo can unwhore their girls
or brand with money.

>>49388335
Vtubing is built on idol culture, anyone who says otherwise is a faggot. Idol culture can only be upheld in strict corporate settings because it's unnatural for women to not whore themselves out on camera when left to their own devices. Thus, I will always support corporate vtubers.

>>49393355
Does this anon actually compare a fictional character that can live on paper manga with a real life stage actress?

>>49394201
>Vtubing is built on idol culture
I would say simping culture (aka certain males' nature). Some vtubers don't really sing or dance. IMO Vtubing is built on SIMP+ANIME culture. If you are a simp who's not into anime, you would watch e-girls.
99% western girls are too woke to roleplay anime girls (gura is a rare exception). They don't even realize no character in Lucky Star will complain about politics on twitter. Even for eastern or Japanese girls, they have to be really really interested in anime roleplay to pull off the kayfabe, You can't just be any girl streamer, you need to have the roleplay talent/skill.
I'm not sure if corporate is essential but I believe only 1% people have self discipline

>>49393500
Characters DO tend to "die" if their VA is no longer associated with the character, save for some specific situations. At least the animated/voiced incarnation of them. VA autism is very strong in Japan, which is why it's so hard to replace established characters.

>>49386907
>company paid for the model
>company designed the model
>company merchandised the model
>company paid for costumes and upgrades
>LOL WHY SHOULD THEY KEEP THE MODEL THE STREAMER IS WHAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT
You're all fucking braindead. People who compare vtubing to voice acting are correct - a vtuber is a fucking character, with a backstory and a design completely unrelated to reality. Whoever plays the role is the actor behind the mask, but they're just that - the actor. They're not playing themselves, no matter what Vshojo fags would like you to think, they play the character. Once they graduate, they step down from this role. What happens next is entirely up to the people who created the character - they can retire the character, or they can continue using them. It was simply never attempted before out of respect, but if Hololive wants to, they can re-debut characters like Aloe or Rushia under different actors. It's not like anyone fucking remembers that Aloe exists, so that'll be fine, I wager. The only thing that's stopping them is the aforementioned idea of respect for the retired talent - it would feel somewhat wrong for someone else to take on the iconic role, it's the same thing in anime - voice actors usually play their characters for decades until they die, and only then they are replaced out of sheer necessity.

>>49393500
Think of literally any character voiced by Norio Wakamoto.
Now imagine that character without his voice.
Would you say it's still the same character? Be absolutely honest.

>>49395043
So you can't read any manga that has a character that was voiced by Wakamoto because his voice isn't being used? What a shit argument.

>>49388335
Its rather than going independent means in at least some cases a fucking fall in a cliff in quality of the streams. Kson for example nowadays ( and before going with vahojo) she is doing whatever she wants apparently but its not the same than her coco days, its not only the effect of the holobox regarding interactions, but that some oversight seemed to kinda help her creatively speaking. That doesnt need to be the exact case for everyone, but it is one aspect of going indie/lax standards agency.

Then there is that twitch bullahit culture that when a vtuber endups there as main streaming place, you see it seeping through the cracks. I mean , reaction content really?? Not to talk that the constant need to lewd the models no matter what due to the only coomer part of the audience, which basically means everyone does it and the results are more often than not poorer due to making the model lewd too much/ out of the design concept.

>>49395070
You actually can't because your mind will automatically read his lines with his voice.
Unless you're one of those fags with aphantasia. ahahaha faggot

>>49389402
True until the company culture and workflow is what ensures some of that fun and entertainment.

>>49395188
You are not intelligent.

>>49389665
No, but the box makes it better. Kson thrived in said holobox, until the happening.

>>49388335
1) I want my oshi to own her char ip
2) But it makes fucking zero sense for the company
3) Also, I don't want any future Holo to pull a Sana and deals heavy blow to any Holo branch (it takes 1 fucking year to produce 4~5 holos)

>>49395043
That's a terrible argument. I'm sure no one can play Doraemon other than Nobuyo Oyama, amirite?

>>49389598
its not going to be that expensive, the VA created this value. Take the graduations of Coco and Rushia for example, the pay pigs who drop 100s, the loyal fanbase stayed. The grey names who arent really invested left, but who cares? more grey names come later. The model needs the VA, and w out the model, the VA still keeps the paying fans as long as they can recognize the voice. I think only Zen from V shojo would have trouble here since no voice.

>>49389884
Obviously people are fans of the talents, but if the company adds adjcent value in a big way, be with interactions, events and maintaining certain flavours of content, then, as it is a not insignificant part of the joy/entertainment/fun the vtuber provides, if one leaves elsewhere all that is lost, hence its not the same st all.

>>49386907
>Just let them keep the models if they decide to leave.
This is literally what Kson wants to be the norm, but she gets mocked here for it by tribalist cocksuckers.

>>49395461
Or by people who understand how this whole thing works.
>join company
>they give you a model
>leave company
>they take it back
It's that simple.

>>49394961
Your explanation won't do it coz they are dumb. You are talking about norms. They would challenge you to use a new norm. Actually there's nothing wrong with either contractor (no char IP) or partner (gets char IP). However in scenario of partnership, the talent can never compensate what company gave to the talent and potential future losses.

Some anons will NEVER understand this. The puzzling part is they can't put themselves in company's shoe.

>>49386907
Patra is the Sora of 774 (or Miko if you like Haneru), if they dont agree with her term it's no different than killing the whole corpo. She have strong position here, she is special case. He cant expect a normal girl who probably never read her contract get the same treatment.

maybe we should just end the practice of vtubing. men can now spend all that time coming up with crypto scams and the attention-whores can either get real jobs or kill themselves

>>49395461
It would be different if all corpos literally acted like talent agencies by taking in pre-existing IPs under an umbrealla like VShojo. But Vshojo also recently highlighted exactly why corpos don't work like that.

>>49395804
774 is dying anyways

>>49395881
Please don't gaslight me. I will believe it

>>49390336
>look at how badly Barcelona's plans were derailed by Qatar paying 250m for Neymar's buyout when it was set at more than twice the previous transfer record, a sum they figured was so outlandish that nobody would think of it
they learned from that, Messi's buyout in his final contract there was 1 billion euros
I don't understand how these things work but, couldn't they have just refused the offer regardless?

>>49394201
this

>>49395878
Ahem. Vshojo only accept big names like Kson and Rushia. Vshojo would beg them to join not the other way around.
In Holo's case its the opposite. Cover is making poor dirty girls into royal princesses.
Vshojo and Holo is very good case study imo.

>>49396001
What else is there left who is relevant, haneru?

>>49388291
>MUH BLUE DORITO REEEEEEEEEE WHY WON’T YOU WATCH ME TALK ABOUT HOW I ACCIDENTALLY SHIT WHILE DOING ANAL

>>49395563
It's neets and underagedb& or just deluded commies that don't get it.
If you go to a job and get given a forklift, a desk, a car, a whateverthefuck to use whilst you're employed there you don't just get to take that shit with you when you leave.
Certainly not if you're going to work for the competition straight after.
It's the divide between terminally online twitter pinkos and anyone that's actually had to work, either as an employee or work to build a business from scratch that has employees.

>>49396220
Sry that I confused you. I didn't follow 774 so I can't tell if 774 is really on brink of destruction. On vt especially outside catalog anons will say any agency is dying soon.

>>49388697
even more ironic is that the shit you're replying to doesn't see that it's two ex-holos which are the prime example of what you're saying
i'm curious how for example someone like Akari Mirai, if she were to return, would be when actually set free
those that sob about corporate chains have NOTHING to complain about compared with the old school corpochuuba like her
actual puppetslave

>>49391189
then just tell lack to draw her new model with pale skin, if akai haato is allowed to turn 180 into the abomination called haachama, surely a slight design change won't hurt anyone.

>>49386907
>miniscule chance of it happening on japan
>will be the certain death of dogshit western corpos
this is actually a very good idea to support

>VA for goku retires
>koei is forced to make a new MC since the old VA has taken the IP to him and put him in smut comics you don't want associated with your shonen manga

>>49396691
NTA I was thinking about this the whole time. But if this is viable some must have done it.

>>49395881
Kinda, but at least they're trying with the new merger and stuff.

>>49388456
A vtuber's parents aren't eternal and can be change
>Iron Mouse have several models from different artists
>Ordan is not Sakura Miko's original artist
>Hoshimachi Suisei and Teshima Nari

>>49396783
it's because just because someone dislike x, doesn't mean that person wants x to disappear or change. It's like my old drawings in pixiv, they suck compared to present mine and I feel bad about them, but not to the point I want to delete and erase them from existence.

>>49396117
they tried to but didn't have legal grounds for it
PSG had tried to buy Neymar via the transfer process and Barca rejected it, but buyout clauses are de facto mandatory in Spanish football contracts and triggering one doesn't require agreement, the contract dissolves once the sum's paid
this is weirdness specific to La Liga, in most other leagues these clauses are negotiated on an individual basis, which is where you hear about players expecting to play for Madrid in the future being rumored to have a specific carve-out for that possibility and such
I think that's more likely to be practical a way of handling things, the idea of an entire agency dying because someone with too much money crippled their roster with buyouts is not really a good business plan, and making those buyouts too expensive for that to happen would make them unusable for individuals to buy themselves out which is what the gist of the thread is getting at

>>49388796
But the vtubers that leave VShojo own their models pre VShojo

>>49396937
uhhh I misunderstood your point. I thought you were proposing to solve IP right issue by using a new character with high resemblance almost as if an alternative color version.

>>49390327
>Besides if the vtuber really can be successful then they should be able to reincarnate and climb back up.
This. And the vtubers can always make their own models kind of similar to their previous model in corpo. For example: Unou and Lulu

>>49393319
>But imagine if someone like Aqua or Subaru leaves and cause a controversy. Even if Cover said they are not part of Hololive anymore, their images are too damn linked with the brand. And that would hurt the corpo more.
now that's just retarded. extremely retarded.
nobody's gonna blame akb for whatever their ex-members do.
except, like I said, extreme retards.

>>49387225
What if they DO pay for it?
Can they keep the model then?
>The cost of the model is X amount
>They pay the cost asked of them
>They get the rights to the model and can do whatever they like with it after forever.

>>49390327
>Besides if the vtuber really can be successful then they should be able to reincarnate and climb back up.
I don't see the need to climb back up as most paypigs will swarm the new char debut stream in this internet age.
The main reason a chuuba wants the IP is because she had spent tremendous effort and soul to built that char. Its literally her another identity. Even matsuri has called herself matsuri outside of hololive. Same with Kiara.

I think it'll become more common among companies that are only a group of streamers, but for something like Hololive that has a huge portion of it's revenue coming from huge collaborations, the image of the brand and all it's characters is too important to risk letting someone take the character away. Doubt they'd ever do another Suisei for the same reason

>>49397839
I believe a lot of people will perceive or at least suspect current Holos are lying whores if a fresh ex-holo (with same character appearance and name) comes up with some disgusting yab.

>>49398499
>I believe a lot of people
>people
yeah, schizos and retarded people.
>with same character appearance and name
do you think that an ex-akb changes her stage name and have plastic surgeries on her face and shit after graduation?

It makes sense for the company to keep the model.

It doesn't make any fucking sense for anyone to willingly sign in for a company knowing that's their only fate. And if you build your name on the company's brand, you will never have anything for yourself.

I will never have respect for creators that grow from joining a company instead of their own skills and merits.

>>49398657
never into akb but akb and vtuber are vastly different. Akb is not allowed to have bf within the contract period and this rule has to be followed strictly. Probably because it really matters. So we can speculate a lot of fans care far less after an akb graduates.
But that's a totally different case with vtubers. Beside your weird example, you're probably the only one ITT who thinks ex-holo doesn't impact the brand.

>>49398847
> if you build your name on the company's brand, you will never have anything for yourself.
uhh most of the paypigs will follow ex-holo. Paypigs are loyal that's why they pay

>>49386907
>Just let them keep the models if they decide to leave.
Then everyone will just leave as soon as they done leeching

>>49387725
Well, nyanners, vei and silver were all established already. I guess we have to see what they do if nazuna left

>>49389410
>it's how much money they would have continued to make for the company if she stayed under her then-trajectory
No, that logic only makes sense if you assume that not being able to keep their model makes talents stay at their company when they would otherwise have left.
Looking at all past cases of companies allowing vtubers to leave with their model, have we seen a higher rate of members leaving them because of that? No, not really. In most cases of mass graduations (upd8, Entum, CyberLive, Tsunderia) it's because the company was already dying from other reasons, and shit like Kawaii Gen3 happened despite them losing their models.
Trying to balance the price of a model against hypothetical earnings that aren't gonna happen either way once the talent is determined to leave doesn't make much sense.

>>49401642
This is the reason why you only see IP buyout on weaker and dying corpo. Stable corpo has a reasonable case that they can cash in future sales and allowing IP buyout will only weaken their bargaining power to the rest of their talents.Only dying companies with no future will allow a buyout.

>>49394961
>LOL WHY SHOULD THEY KEEP THE MODEL THE STREAMER IS WHAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT
Yes. Yes it is. What's important to a company is ultimately decided by the behavior of their customers. And in the case of a vtuber company, the "customers" are viewers who, for the most part, would absolutely consider the talent to be the most important part.
Imagine if a talent leaves their company and reincarnates somewhere else, but at the same time, the company casts a new "VA" for the model. Which of the two do you think most fans of the original vtuber would continue to watch?
That's the fundamental difference between VTubers and anime characters, and some of the early companies had to learn that the hard way. Just look up Game Club Project or the Kizuna AI voice controvercy.

>>49386907
>Just let them keep the models if they decide to leave.
Lol lmao

>>49398918
>never into akb but akb and vtuber are vastly different
That's how most entertainment industries work. You don't just blame someone's previous affiliation for whatever s/he does. That's stupid.
What matters is how they went separate ways.
>you're probably the only one ITT who thinks ex-holo doesn't impact the brand.
So, I'm the only sane one ITT. Got it.

>>49401642
>Trying to balance the price of a model against hypothetical earnings that aren't gonna happen either way once the talent is determined to leave doesn't make much sense.
But that's exactly what happened with Patra.

>>49402047
Maybe. But I don't see 774 or VShojo dying just yet and even MyHoloTV is still alive with new members after losing gen2 and letting Miori keep her model back in 2021. Big stable corpos can afford to keep the IP to themselves (for now), but that doesn't mean they have to, or even that it's necessarily the better choice.

Companies have absolutely all the right to keep the models.
Streamers also have all the rights not to sign away their hard work and future to a third party. They sell their soul away for exposure? They gotta pay for it. Simple as.

>>49387225
Allow them to buy it.

>>49388088
774 just got bought out and needs money, this is something only dying/struggling companies do.

The core problem is the impingement on their free speech where they contractually can't say they used to voice X character. That's bullshit, and should be tested in a US court.

>>49390106
They SHOULD be allowed to walk. It will force companies to actually offer a service of benefit to their talents. Content creation organizations still exist, talents still sign on, and both still make money. Having a corpo to continue handling merchandising, promotion, sponsorships, music connections, mocap equipment, etc, still has value. Streamers do and will continue to give up some of their potential revenue so someone else can do the heavy lifting behind the scenes. But if Peko thinks she can handle all that shit on her own, or can hire her own people to do it, she should 100% be able to.

>>49388335
Women can't be trusted on their own.

>>49397865
>>49403535
Some do some don’t and the reason is because it’s a box set. You can’t separate them from their gens and groupings. Most importantly despite what people believe very vtubers can claim to have built their fame. If irys, salome, the solo jew, or an entire generation was cut off I could understand doing it.

>>49386907
Yeah, this practice is stupid, it's like owning an idol's face.

>>49386907
>encoraging grifters to pump and dump corps
kys Lack

>>49403956
She's 100% able to.
Just not as Pekora.

>>49386907
what??? so they can
>join org.
>benefit from org buff/subs/viewership/collab
>leave with their model
>keep their fans, and viewership
>org doesnt get anything

are you retarded?

>>49404289
The difference is that people will have faces whether or not modern capitalism is, while vtubers cannot exist without a method of paying people to make them, giving streamers a financial incentive to use them, and financial incentives to run all the backend stuff.
Humans and animals had faces even back when we were cavemen. Vtubers can’t exist without the money. So we let the people who fork out the money own the models because that’s the only way we can get more.
Either that, or force everyone to be indies. Which would work out soooooo well because everybody here only watches indies.

It's funny seeing how this topic is ALWAYS in favor of the girls and whatever happens to the company doesn't ever matter. The company HAS to give up things for the girls. I don't know why it's so hard for people to understand how stupid their ideas are but I guess that's how it is with simps.
The people who have nothing to lose are always the loudest and claim to have the moral high ground.
We've already seen what happens when companies try to live in this fantasy world people here want where everyone who becomes vtubers never have ill intent. We've all seen the results but I guess reality is optional nowadays.

>>49403956
They are allowed to walk, most organizations aren’t leaving them starving, and it’s not as easy as you think. Your logic is you should be able to leave with the model if you want because you could handle all of that on your own if you chose to then used the example of one of the biggest vtubers in the most lucrative organization. Corporations don’t have to do anything and you don’t have to join it’s all a choice so should means nothing. On your next point do you know why kson claimed she didn’t care about money to then join vshojo months later? It was for money as she was making a lot less. When everything is given you never learn to handle it yourself. Maybe 5 members in hololive could leave and pull off the same thing alone, maybe 3 in niji and 0 everywhere else. Talent is irrelevant and subs are irrelevant if you don’t know what you’re doing. A man with 400-600k subs can make 7 figures and that same man with 1.5 million subs can only make mid 6 figures. If you don’t know what you’re doing you’ll eventually fail which even kson realized.

Long tangent but it boils down to no a model they didn’t pay for isn’t entitled to them, and most would do significantly worse alone

>>49404805
People /here/ were largely on the company's side when it comes to Kawaii's 3rd gen. But they didn't get to keep their models and still left.

>>49404289
Except it’s not because they didn’t pay for it they don’t own the ip and patra is rich so she can afford it

>>49386907
You're manipulating yourself if you get emotionally attached to a role played by an actor.

The model will end up in a page being sold for more than 100k because the real streamer gave up on streaming or became a fleshtuber, or the model will be used for an onlyfans. If they didn't pay for it in a first place, then they don't deserve it. I'd rather they keep the legacy if the model

>>49391054
Most companies don't want to be a revolving door of talent and end up as nothing more than a stepping stone. They want to fully reap the benefits of what they sowed and are completely in their right to do so.

>>49404289
Company: well you can get back your face, but not our character and brand.

>>49405019
All you're saying is there is value in the corpo, which I agree with and already pointed out. They will still have talents stay and new talents apply for the services a company like Holo can provide. It's still also true that the only reason the image of Pekora or any of talents has any value whatsoever is the person behind the mask. At minimum, a purchase path out should be standard a la Patra, but I would argue even thats too much for the company, especially if it's metrics based. The company's initial investment in Gura wasn't any more or less than any other Myth member. Making her buyout more expensive because her character is more successful than Kiara is punishing her for her success.

>>49405111
Personally, that’s what makes me side with the girls, because you have to either be completely doing shit as the company or have a business model that’s fundamentally unsustainable for your talents to decide that’s a financially viable decision.
But I also admit I don’t know enough to know the situation fully and I’m not invested enough to change that. The bigger point is, if you still have this problem even when you don’t let the girls keep the model, imagine how much worse it would be if you did.
The fact that people will still use a corpo as a stepping stone even when they have no control over their model just goes to show how important it is that they do.

>>49405703
What we’ve seen from former Hololive members is that the rm gives the girl value, but not all of that value. I straight up just couldn’t get myself to care about kson even while she was still coco because I realized I don’t care about any of the roommates’ content when it wasn’t as Hololive. The value the rm’s bring is equivalent to what they can get as indies.
In that case, I absolutely think someone like Gura or Pekora should be charged more and “punished” for their success. The price theoretically would be the difference between what revenue Gura can get as her rm and what she can get as Gura.
Pekora and Gura having their rm’s and avatars would still be shitters had they debuted as indies and never been part of Hololive. That invisible difference in value that we’ll never know for sure is what Cover contributes through all their marketing

>>49405381
Also supply and demand.
As a company why the fuck do I choose a talent that demands char IP while many others are dying for the same post and don't demand char IP?

>>49394961
>People who compare vtubing to voice acting are correct
voice actors are reading prewritten lines for premade characters. vtubers by contrast might have some dumb lore already set up for them but nobody cares and the voice behind the vtuber is responsible for filling hours upon hours of airtime entirely on their own (if they're a normal streaming vtuber).
you're comparing apples to oranges. a vtuber is someone filtering their own personality a smidge to fit with company policy or some vague, ultimately inconsequential idea of what their character 'should' be. the person behind the vtuber is like 95% responsible for how their character is perceived; a voice actor is just working with what they're given by the writers

>>49406082
The reason Gura and Peko are bigger than other Holomembers isn't value given by Cover though, thats entirely on them. Cover gets to enjoy better merch sales, better brand partnerships, etc because of the success the person behind the mask brought to those characters. To go back to Myth, the only one who was promoted more than the others was Mori with her debut single (although Ina may have been paid by Cover for debut art, we would likely never know), and yet Gura was the breakout success. The person behind Gura already paid her extra share by making a more lucrative persona. Buyout price, if there is one at all, should be standardized based on the services the company provides. Success of the character should not be in the equation.

>>49389397
They want to have their cake and eat it too, it's as simple as that

>>49405873
>Join corp
>Don't actually like what the corp does (idol)
>Try to get their way by threatening management and pressuring genmates to join in the "strike"
>Some genmates didn't even want to do it but it was all for an act of solidarity
>Management doesn't cave in
>Graduation
It's literally Sana but if she dragged her entire gen in to try and get management to cave in and it didn't work so the entire gen leaves. Don't like idols? Then just don't join an idol corp. Simple.

>>49405381
>>49405873
Then you just need need your corpo to be pleasant
and useful enough that your talents will want to stay. The only reason for this to not work would be if you've hired people that are in it for nothing but the money, but those types may still leave you either way.
Given the fact that some companies, like 774 here, apparently allow talents to keep their model and we haven't really seen their talents using as stepping stones any more than at companies that don't, it doesn't seem to be that big of an issue after all.

>>49406270
>ultimately inconsequential idea of what their character 'should' be
Their design is about as consequential as it gets, it defines the vtuber's personality as much as the voice. Pic related is Uruha Rushia, you don't need to hear the voice to know who that figurine is based on. Rushia had her own fanbase, and while a few paypigs transferred to her next character, most actually didn't, because whatever came next was not Uruha Rushia. Same with Coco, or any other example. Both were top superchatted channels on YouTube, and this success did not transfer either.
While the person behind the mask is important, the mask itself is what people buy into. The vast majority couldn't care less about the real people behind the mask.

>>49406423
You don't understand how anything works. A genius invention isn't worth 2 cents just because it was first drawn onto a napkin.

>>49389410
Projected money doesn't matter, they'll make basically nothing without the talent, it's either sell it and make a little extra, or keep it and have it languish in a drive

>>49406813
The napkin is the model in your example you absolute fucking imbecile. Blue Shark Loli doesn't become the 4mil+ subs YouTube channel without the person behind it.

>>49407138
You're arguing that the only thing that the person behind it should have to pay for is the napkin, you fucking idiot.

>>49406634
>Don't like idols? Then just don't join an idol corp. Simple.
Unfortunately idol is a....

>>49406652
>Then you just need need your corpo to be pleasant and useful enough that your talents will want to stay.
I'm really starting to believe you people don't live in reality or have no experience in life at all.
Let's use kronii as an example. She wants to collab with males and some of her fans don't like that. If management said no that would fall under your
>you just need need your corpo to be pleasant
because kronii could view them denying her what she wants as being unpleasant. Well, now she can just pay and walk out with everything and YOU, if you were a fan of hers, would fully support her because if she said company was bad you'll parrot it too. Anything that the person could even consider unpleasant, regardless of how insignificant it is, can be used as an excuse to leave. HoloEN already makes enough excuses as is, like tummy hurt and all the other "problems". They are still human. They aren't these pure angels that have YOUR best interest in mind.

>>49407190
Yes, exactly. The model, the initial exposure and marketing thanks to the brand, connections for music production, equipment for 3D content. The SERVICES that the company provides to the talents should be the buyout price at maximum. It's not like Cover doesn't make money from Gura appearing in 3D lives, or doing a sponsorship stream for Taco Bell, etc. She has already paid more by nature of being success FOR THE COMPANY.

The best analogy I can come up with is a car and a driver. While the driver obviously matters, the car matters just as much, and while a shitty driver can grow into a great car (or crash it with no survivors i.e. Aloe), a great driver can't do much with a shitty car. Cover produces really damn good cars for their drivers, and when their drivers leave, they don't get to keep the cars.

>>49407652
>She has already paid more by nature of being success FOR THE COMPANY.
She hasn't paid anything extra. If she wants to take the high demand product she created with the company away from the company, she will pay more to acquire it. It's that simple.

>>49407750
The amount of money someone like Gura or Mori made on their streams, merch, etc. and the potential losses for Cover if the brand that is the character leaves their hands are so massive that no vtuber alive would be rich enough to pay that sum of cash. That's why it's never even discussed.

>>49406423
Pekora is biggest because she has access to the best female streamers in Japan to bounce off of if she needs to. The entire Hololive network is extremely valuable, just look at the difference between Coco and Kson.
Coco had access to other equally or even more entertaining streamers who were easy to work with and knew how to bounce off of her for the sake of a good stream. She even had her own niche as the yankee surrounded by "seiso" girls and viewers found it entertaining to see her "corrupt" them.
Kson has to work with indie #251 that no one really gives a fuck about, some who are even more foul mouthed and lewder than her.

>>49407945
What's the point of this complete non-sequitur? Do you just want to end the conversation because this whole "IP buyout should only cost the price of the model and initial advertising" thing didn't work out?

>>49407698
>Cover produces really damn good cars for their drivers

>>49408072
There were some duds along the way, but whatcha gonna do about it.

>>49408037
I'm not that anon, I'm just pointing out the obvious.

>>49408177
Why are you replying to me but not anyone else before me?
Why are you not replying to the OP?

>>49408222
Who cares?

>>49406423
Well, that’s why I believe there shouldn’t be a buyout clause. Because it’s too complicated and messy. Their roommates don’t completely stay stagnant after joining Hololive, anyone who wants to can still graduate.
It’s not about doing the right thing, it’s about being economically profitable. The company would lose more if they let Gura leave than if they let Kiara did, so their only two options are either to make Gura pay more to let her keep the model or force everyone who wants to leave to abandon the model.
That’s why most corpos keep the model. They’re not going to let their moneymakers go just like that, and we shouldn’t expect them to.
If Gura ever wanted to keep her model, she would have to pay more money than any vtuber ever has, and that’s more than fair. On the flip side, Cover basically lets her do whatever she wants and make tons of money while still in the corpo so she doesn’t want to leave. I’d say that evens out.
Sure, it would suck for her fans if Gura decided to quit and go back to her rm, but that’s the thing. It isn’t about the fans. The fans are along for the ride, but it’s the money that makes them worth having around.

>>49408259
You're "pointing out the obvious" in reply to a post that doesn't need telling that.

>>49407995
Again, you aren't disagreeing with me. The brand IS a value that Cover brings to the table. Peko should still be allowed to take the rabbit design and walk if she thinks she can get by without that. Paying for that and the other services in the exit buyout is what I've been arguing, not some arbitrary evaluation based on her success to buyout. Her being popular directly benefits Cover, a buyout shouldn't take that into account.

>>49407698
>a great driver can't do much with a shitty car
If only you'd had seen what a man can do with a moskvitch

>>49408292
>Cover basically lets her do whatever she wants
But they don't which is why she doesn't stream or really do anything at all.

>>49408310
>Her being popular directly benefits Cover, a buyout shouldn't take that into account.
How the fuck do you believe this?

>>49408310
>a buyout shouldn’t take that into account
You forgot something. Prices reflect desire. Cover doesn’t WANT anyone to buy them out. That’s why Pekora or Gura would have to pay tons more money to do it than Aki or Kiara. Because it would suck worse for Cover to lose the first two than the last two. They wouldn’t *want* the talents to leave, so of course they would charge more for the ones more likely to and who make the company more money.
They’re not trying to make it better for the girls, they’re trying to make it better for themselves. And of course they are, because what exactly do you think they are, a fucking charity?

>>49408423
Cause I don't like the taste of shoe leather. Cover should be monetarily placating these super successful girls to keep them around. Not holding them hostage. Cover Corp dies without their talents.

>>49408504
So you're just virtue signalling your commie values while not understanding or caring about how anything in the real world works.

>>49408504
Why? So they would get even lazier?

>>49408544
You seem to think Cover doesn't hold any rights. An underperformed talent can absolutely still be penalized or terminated. I'm only saying the buyout, should a talent choose to leave on amicable terms, be a standardized price based on the services the company provides.

>>49407588
Yes and? If she thinks they don't let her do what the wants to, she still still has the option to leave and go somewhere else, whether it's with her current model or not. And when you, as the viewer, see your oshi say or do <insert literally anything here>, you can always decide to either keep watching them or not. So I'm not sure what you're trying to say with all that.

>>49408504
If you want to keep a model after retirement you a corpo that let you do that.
Is simple.

>>49408618
It's not going to be like that because you're a kid who doesn't understand business.

>>49408618
You are getting your panties twitted for a scenario that you built in your own head. The textbook definition of being a schizo.

>>49407698
And yet, Gura, whose rigging everyone complains about, it the biggest vtuber.

>>49408504
>should
And what do you intend to do, point a gun at Yagoo’s head in a country where it’s almost impossible to get one?
In the real world, there’s only one way to set the rules: what your competitors do. Any company that followed your retarded ethics would go bankrupt as everyone else mogged them financially. The fact that Cover can treat its talents so well and still do decently against kurosanji is why no one but you is going on this retarded crusade.
The only way to survive as a corpo is to not let the talents keep their models for reasons that everyone gets is common sense. They still treat the talents extremely well despite that, and they make lots of money off the stuff that uses their model’s image.
Besides, a huge part of Hololive’s appeal is that the holobox is bigger than all of the talents individually. As if a bunch of indies have any incentive or ability to create the kind of environment that turns Hololive into a “get 100k subs pre-debut free” company.

>>49408618
> An underperformed talent can absolutely still be penalized or terminated.
Sana: Cmon my "back pain" coasted for months kek. I also left ASAP after 1 year. Sry you guys have permanently lost a HoloEN lol lol

>>49386907
>Just let them keep the models if they decide to leave.
Why? If you leave you leave.

>>49386907
Keeping the IP and forcing NDAs is the only power these companies have over their talents, otherwise they would all run away to a better contract or to be indie and take their audience with them

>>49408771
As far as online entertainers go, Gura's a prodigy, she can work with literal png images (and she did). Her debut was practically effortless when it came to self-made virality. But most people aren't on that level.

>>49408774
I don't think this retard thinks Cover treats them badly based on his other posts, which is what makes his weird anti-corpo "ur a bootlikerxDD" posting so much weirder.

>>49386907
It wont work, the V-tubers will immediatly want to leave for bigger returns after they get the initial corpo exposure, less V-tubers will depute because the company isn't growing, evantually it will all stop. Lack is an artist's perspective which makes sense, you want your design to be used for as long as possible. Solution would be to allow them to buy the model after certain amount of time.

>>49408072
I like this car. Even though the driver himself hates his own car.

>>49409045
Lack, as a Niji/Holo papa, has direct incentive to encourage this kind of thinking.
He makes money off of Flare/Lain artwork that he sells at conventions and whatnot. If Flare leaves then that leaves a big hole in how much he makes when selling artbooks.

you fuckin mental bro
ppl could just sign up get their model and leave
6k down the drain for you company, idiot
Hololive dont even trust them with their model files even
All hololive model files are kept within the hololive server and they connect to it via sofware. I think Gura was the only one who has her model files , but only for older version of her model

>>49408887
Again fairness is different in eyes of the beholder. The main thing is, why the fuck does someone even sign a corpo contract if he/she doesn't like it or find it disadvantageous? It's not like indie is a illegal thing and corpo is the only way,
The complainers want to take the pseudo morale high ground because the mentioned idea makes zero business sense to the company.
An idea the complainers won't even accept if they are company's CEO.

>>49408979
I don’t get it. In the real world I’d be a raging leftist. I’m by far the most left-leaning one in my family. I talk about how naive it is to expect the market to fix everything or how stupid it is to think the stock market is a law of physics.
But OP apparently thinks I and everyone else shitting on him are ancaps because we think corporations should…follow common sense in an industry where we’ve already seen countless examples of OP’s asinine idea crashing and burning?
Someone should go to OP’s house, put a gun to his head, and force him to sell his personal belongings and extra organs, borrow himself into debt, and start a vtuber company based on his own principles.
>you can’t make him go into debt like that, that’s fucked up
It being hyperbole for dramatic effect aside, every vtuber corpo was founded using borrowed money. That’s how companies start in general. Most people do not have random millions just lying around. Even if there was a sliver of a chance this could work, THAT’S why no company does it.

>>49387788
No. I believe she most likely signed some sort of contract with Vshojo to stream under the Vshojo brand for at least a year, and then afterwards, she'll have options for whether or not to renew her contract.

>>49409243
And this saved their ass when the Chinese branch went full mutiny and their management team tried to steal the models.

>>49408888
>Gura's a prodigy
Gura is an ace. She's insanely good. Will still be an ace if she's in JP branch. I often wonder why a western girl like Gura can roleplay anime girl so good. Most JPs can't even do that even if they tried.

>>49409364
yea that is why they use their own Vtuber Software. they can not do that with Vtube Studio. It kind of sucks in a way because Vtube studio has all the cool plugins and fx, there is a ton of stuff you can do now to make streams more interactive with chat with redeems. Hololive is missing out on this for quite a while because they choose to not trust the girls. Probably smart of them honestly but they could also just get them to sign a contract where they do not have the rights to the models if they leave

>>49409444
Frankly, I think the reason Gura’s so good at it is connected to the reason she doesn’t fucking stream anymore. To become someone like that, you have to have menhera that makes you not want to or not able to act more like a normalfag instead.
Every hour spent passively absorbing the skills required to pull it off is an hour not spent socializing in a more normal way. Same for every calorie of brainpower spent internalizing that mindset.
Gura is literally built different. But that’s going to result in all sorts of side effects, including whatever mental barrier is keeping her from doing what is objectively one of the best jobs in the world. I didn’t say a perfect job that’s easy and doesn’t come with any problems, just a job that’s still excellent despite all that.

>>49409178
desu I don't Lack is thinking about profits. He was blinded and enraged that his daughters have to die, especially over some yabs. If chuuba owns her char, no yab can kill her char.

>>49408504
That's...exactly what they are doing. You do realize that the top (heck, probably the upper half) of Hololive are effectively millionaires, right? You're not fighting for the mistreated worker to get justice, you're fighting for millionaires to get a fatter check. Heck, Holos that helped build the company like Ayame could literally just sit on their butt for months and collect free money; that's, like, the most dream job of dream jobs you can have.
People aren't lining up for Hololive for their services like they do for VShojo. They line up to join because the biggest thing that Hololive offers is the branding power and the guaranteed success. If they let people just join, leech off their brand, and leave with everything intact then they'd end up turning into an exact duplicate of VShojo - a company that just hires successful indies and sells their merch. They would no longer be incentivized to invest in new talents and build up their success.
So yeah, it's pretty obvious why this ain't happening.

>>49409444
gura been role playing voice acting since a long long time ago. She did a voice over for a video game and Nyanners did a voice over in the same game. This was before Vtubers.

>>49409590
Cover has been slowly improving their app but will always be behind Vtube studio. I thought Niji would be more inclined to update their app after Hololive finally added the pinning objects feature but I guess they just don't give a shit.

>>49409626
I sympathize with that, I really do. But that’s also why fans shouldn’t make financial decisions for corpos. Living with the risk that your oshi could graduate/get terminated and her model will die is unavoidable. You just have to trust that the corpo won’t do that, or either watch indies only or not watch vtubers at all.
The friction between corpos trying to make money and fans who don’t like the moves they make is the entire dramatic tension that defines fandoms. It’s never going to go away. Just accept that and also accept financial pressures are also what make a lot of the things we like too (anime looks the way it does because Tezuka copied Disney’s “draw everything simply” meta and also skimped out on the between frames).

>>49389782
Add another 0 to that figure.

>>49386907
>Just let them keep the models if they decide to leave.
But it just happened in Vshojo kek. Oh wait, is he complaining about the state of corporate nipon vtuber agencies? Well, good luck with that LMAO

>japanese corporate talent agencies work fucking backwards
Oh wow, what a surprise!

>>49409444
>Most JPs can't even do that even if they tried.
Not a single JP can do it.

>>49388112
>high quality

>>49389782
>Gura’s Messi or Ronaldo
This is kind of fascinating. Which is she? I feel like you can make a case for either side. On the one hand, she’s kind of washed up and everyone knows it even though she had a good run, like Ronaldo. On the other hand, she still is clearly capable of flashes of brilliance but doesn’t seem give even a single shit.
Idk what Gura’s equivalent of winning the World Cup is for her though, but it seems highly unlikely that she’ll achieve it like Messi, whatever the fuck it is.

Cover provides absolutely nothing of value to the girls. Why should they get to keep the badly made model?

>>49410269
Fubuki, Luna, Ayame, Korone, Pekora, Kobo and La+ do it very well.

>>49410344
Two ways to answer this question.
Practical reason: because they have lawyers. Just try to break the contract. Just try. They can make you follow their rules.
Philosophical: because Cover put the money into those models and paid for all that shit and all the staff and everything that makes Hololive different from indies. That’s what makes people watch Hololive instead of indies. If anyone who blew up could leave without giving Cover their cut, then Cover wouldn’t bother investing that money anymore.
Believe it or not, the current members of Hololive aren’t meant to be the only ones there’ll ever be. We want to reward them for what they’ve done in the past so they’ll keep doing it in the future.

>>49410417
I don't think you know what playing an anime girl well looks like.

>>49409877
>Just accept that and also accept financial pressures are also what make a lot of the things we like too
Your spoke wisdom my friend. Reality always win in the end. Things also exist for a reason. So why not find ways to enjoy and have fun?

>>49409243
Holo actually does that? Wow that's smart, they're actually investing in a proper IT infrastructure then. I'm so used to these types of companies doing dumb shit with just pinkie-promises and hopium.

>>49410417
All but Laplus. Her way of speaking, satire and humor have the vibe of twitch streamers.

>>49410344
>Cover provides absolutely nothing of value to the girls
>Insinuating the girls who signed contact are idiots
>Also the thousands that would die to sign the contact

Didn't Mea get to keep her model after going indie? And, I think, some of the VSPO talents got poached after their previous agency got shut down, but they kept the designs too.

>>49411001
An agency that shuts down and won't let the talents keep the stuff is pretty fucking bad and most don't take that step.

>>49388291
NO ANON YOU CAN'T CALL HOLONIGGERS BOOTLICKERS WHATABOUT NIJISANJI ONE PORCENT AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>49388335
Hololive as an ecosystem is enjoyable, I like the games, I like the festivals, the collabs, they are all better than their competition

Sure, there are indies that have better solo streams, and I watch them if they happen to stream, but I will literally structure my schedule around a big event in hololive

>>49411536
Just wanted to point out that the practice of letting the talents keep their persona existed before Patra. And, as an anon said early in the thread, it's not like the agency can keep it to just reuse it. The audience would not accept a change like that. So it's dead weight anyway, might as well let the former talents buy it out, if not gift it to them.

>>49404089
>You can’t separate them from their gens and groupings
lmao
most gens have not much in common design wise since they hire multiple artists and lore is 9 out of 10 times irrelevant to their day-by-day streaming career

Selling the character IP is more useful than letting it rot, Coco is literally only out there cause fans don't let it die

>>49405131
>and patra is rich so she can afford it
So if patra is "rich" what you think a holo is? any holo could afford but we know holo will never sell the IP

>>49407995
>Pekora is biggest because she has access to the best female streamers in Japan
Didn't know everysingle solo pekora stream is also a collab

>>49405131
Patra had to take a huge loan to afford it.

>>49409246
What can be advantageous at first can be a hinderance later as things change which is why no contract should have anything written out in perpetuity (NDAs, IP, etc) and should have to be renegotiated on a regular basis. Support the talents, not the corpos

>>49388112
Should be an option to reimburse for the cost of the model in exchange for taking ownership with you.

>>49413291
That's not how anything works or how it will ever work.

>>49413236
>Support the talents, not the corpos
No one ever supports the company but you have to make a SENSIBLE OFFER to the company so the company would actually accept it. We can demand a lot of shit for our oshi but there's no reason for company to accept it as it DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.