/vt/ - Virtual Youtubers

Why are NijiEN and their fans so obsessed with this concept?

>>25844902
Jesas I understand the complaints about her model now. Combined with the bad voice and bad takes no wonder she's a 3view

God forbid she be happy with her job.

>>25845018
It's specifically because Hololive EN fans would constantly mistake them for idols that they've had to assert they aren't. It's a matter of separating their brand from Hololive.

I assume this makes people angry because it goes against their narrative that every VTuber wants to join Hololive.

>>25845158
I dunno why

Do you see how miserable everyone older than a year working for hololive are?

>>25844902
>i- i don't even w-want to be an idol

>>25844902
Finana why are you doing this?

>>25844902
I find it amusing how these Nijisanji vtubers pretend to deliver fundamentally different content yet essentially do the same thing with a few more obscenities sprinkled over. They too maintain the facade of sexual availability because they intuitively realise that if they brought their relationship status into the equation they would lose viewers because the popularity of a vtuber is tied to it, thus ultimately submitting to the patriarchal logic they pretend to transcend.

>Month old clip
>Taken out of context for dramabait
You're all such niggers. She said this specifically because somebody in chat told her to act like an idol. Pic related.

>>25845240
>Idols are just sexually available women
No.

>>25845272
That's not what I said. I said that what they're doing is a purely superficial rejection of idol culture by sprinkling ultimately meaningless obscenities on top of their presentation while leaving the essentials in tact.

>>25844902
Isn't this Vox's property?

>>25845185
You mean people like Towa, Suisei, Kanata, Noel, Subaru, Choco, Haachama, Fubuki, Mel, Matsuri, Noel, Flare, Aki, Milo, Sora, Azki, Etc who are at their peaks
Or people like Marine, Korone, Pekora who are at haiatus because of personal problems
I am genuinely confused

>>25845339
Also, it should be noted that this is mostly an EN thing. JP livers don't have the same issues. Also, I would argue that many of the Nijisanji JP livers are actually more seisou than the majority of Hololive, e.g. Lize.

>>25845339
You clearly think it if you think they embrace all of the essentials of idol culture beyond sexual availability.

>>25844902
>T-those grapes a-are p-probably s-s-sour a-anyway!

>>25845351
>Choco, mel, matsuri, kanata, haachama
>at their peaks
>peaks
Anonchama lol

>>25845158
That's not even a good narrative
A girl who openly rejects idol standards even in theory is a girl who would do everything in her power to subvert them
Why would I want a whore

>Say you want to be an idol
>Get called a Hololive reject
>Say you don't want to be an idol
>People imply it's just sour grapes
Is there any way to appease Hololive fans? Serious question.

>>25845446
Then you shouldn't be angry about this at all.

>>25845435
I mean emotionally.
Obviously Haachama peak was in 2021 and Matsuri peak was in 2020.
Aki on the other hand

>>25844902
No one would want to "cage as an idol" this retarded whore

>>25845449
No they are forever miserable because they force themselves to watch and wait for talentless whores that never stream

>>25845384
Sexual availability is a much more fundamental aspect than actual behaviour. You can be as cute and seisou as you want - if you're a married woman and don't pretend otherwise, you'll have fewer viewers than using swear words on screen and being rude to people, yet claiming to not have a boyfriend (or being a virgin even).

>>25845449
Yes. By not making these shitty bait threads pretending to be a Holofan.
It's obvious at thi

>>25845487
So, yes... your image of an idol is just a sexually available woman. That's incorrect.

>>25845460
>peak emotionally
>kanata, haachama, matsuri, choco, mel
>EMOTIONALLY
Anonchama lol

>>25845507
You're not reading correctly.

I called it a much more fundamental aspect; not the essence in entirety. You're clearly low IQ.

>>25844902
Streamed 1 month ago
11k views
Holy 3view

>>25845517
Yes lmao watch streams.
Have you seen how happy Haachama, Mel and Matsuri are right now. Yesterday Matsuri met IRyS for the first time irl and just look how happy she was anon.

>>25845526
To even imply a facade of sexual availability is kowtowing to idol culture presents a fundamental misunderstanding of what it entails on your behalf. Even Twitch e-thots pretend to be single most of the time as it keeps the cash flow going. Doesn't make them idols. Feel free to explain the essence of an idol in your eyes and how you feel NijiEN pays it favor.

>>25845558
>matsuri
>happy
>kanata
>happy
Omg lmao…..anonchama…. bruh

holobronies btfo

>>25845599
Bruh watch streams.
Matsuri is literally the happiest she is now.

>>25845558
Im not taking his side but matsuri is definitely not happy right now. Sorry buddy the skitzo has a point there

>>25844902
Why do nijis always want to start a war or drama?

>>25845564
>Even Twitch e-thots pretend to be single most of the time as it keeps the cash flow going.
That's my entire point.

They are ultimately subject to the sexual desires of men and need to cater to them if they want to be successful. And no amount of pretending to be so much better than these 'caged' idols because of the freedom to use a gratuitous swear word every now and then is going to change that.

>>25844902
>“Im glad im free to do and say what i want and not be a caged idol”
That went extremelly well for her recently

>>25844902
No wonder you're a 2views LMAO

>>25845619
Loooooooooool no
>got shot down by another bitch
>rather stream on alt
>was cryin
>collabed with fellow worker and sold merch she funded out of her on pocket coz her company wont even give her the go signal

>>25845351
Korone is dying bro, that has nothing to do with her being an idol or not.

>>25845656
Idols are micromanaged in far more ways beyond an implicit dating ban. To imply that a Twitch e-thot is ultimately as free in her behavior as a Hololive idol is somewhat baffling. In terms of what views they can express on stream, what games they can play, who they can associate with - yes, they are "less caged" than idols, objectively.

Explain why I should even watch a non Idol Vtuber.

>>25845536
She doesn't care about numbers anyway

>>25845908
Uhuh

>>25845756
>they are "less caged" than idols, objectively.
Less is a meaningless term if it doesn't quantify the freedom. My point is that the degree of freedom they have is in a meaningless dimension because it is ultimately just facade. Furthermore, with EN livers, a critique of idol culture is commonly worded in emancipatory, implicitly feminist terms; and in that regard I can only reply that the ultimate truth is that they are whores who need to portray themselves in the kind of manner that men want to see in order to be successful. And that is the dimension that actually matters - going against that would be an emancipatory act. But the refusal to put their money where their mouth is only reveals their true nature. And no amount of meaningless obscenities is going to hide that.

>>25844902
>“Im glad im free to do and say what i want and not be a caged idol”

I love you Reimu

>>25844902
>>25845117

Walking ever deeper into the mire of ewhoring.

>>25846098
Hakurei

>>25845984
But it isn't just a facade if we have clear examples of several things NijiEN livers are allowed to do that HoloEN is not. You seem eager to frame that the only thing NijiEN can do that HoloEN can't is swear some. That's not true. Just off the top of my head:
>Hololive is banned from playing Civ - Nijisanji isn't
>Hololive is banned from collabing with Projekt Melody - Nijisanji isn't
>Hololive is banned from breaching anything remotely political - Nijisanji isn't
What you're arguing is that they need to act like idols to appeal to men, and that they're hypocrites for lambasting idols while acting as such themselves. But they DO do these distinctly non-idol things - that go beyond "meaningless obscenities", yes - many of which do NOT appeal to men (i.e. mentioning pronouns on stream). It's far too reductive to say
>You do something idols do, so you're no better than an idol
when their behavior isn't 1:1 to an idol at all. You might as well get mad at them for pissing and shitting since Hololive members do the same.

>>25845117
Maybe Anycolor shouldn't have had each EN Wave debut with an original song. They market them as musical vtuber idols then only a couple of them are real singers.

>>25845370
>many of the Nijisanji JP livers are actually more seisou than the majority of Hololive
I'd say there are more seiso livers in Niji than there are total talents in Hololive JP. Holos have sexxed it up since their early days and only since the last couple years have toned it down. Lots of Niji chuubas are far more reserved in how they speak then Hololive girls and many Nijis have never had skimpy outfits like swimsuits or thongs like Holomem.

>>25846216
making music =/= idols and never has

>>25845370
>>25846349
Also, I'm not saying one is qualitatively better than the other. That depends on the individual talent's personality. I like some seiso types and some outright coomer types.

>>25846198
>But they DO do these distinctly non-idol things - that go beyond "meaningless obscenities"
I would argue that none of the things you mentioned are truly essential. You could imagine Hololive idols playing Civ, collabing with Melody (Kiara had a collab with Nyanners after all and Miko and Korone showed a clip of former AV actresses cosplaying during their collab), and getting political. In fact, Hololive has had far more political drama than Nijisanji in the past and you can bet that especially Nijisanji JP is extremely restricted when it comes to mentioning China.

>What you're arguing is that they need to act like idols to appeal to men, and that they're hypocrites for lambasting idols while acting as such themselves.
Yes. And I'd say that matters a lot more than the things mentioned above.

You'll find more or less seisou members both on Nijisanji and Hololive. And I maintain the position that Lize, Rin or Takamiya are more seisou than the majority of Hololive (most of the time). The difference between Marine and Utako is marginal at best. In that regard, these EN cunts need to get their heads out of their asses.

>>25846349
Hololive is a glorified whorehose full of sluts

>>25846379
From my perspective, it does. Lots of EOP that haven't been into chuubas pre 2020 look at it that way since they are forced to do a song to debut despite often not being singers times.

>>25846379
Maybe not, but when HoloEN market themselves as idols, and NijiEN's first wave was all-female with a debut song, viewers can't be blamed for comparing them.

>>25846491
Hence why they make the point of saying they aren't idols when some new guy in chat comes along and calls them idols like in the video linked.

>>25846414
Fundamentally I think we're approaching this issue from two different angles. You're coming at it from a philosophical one. You ask the question:
>What's the difference between two whores that need to pretend to be single for men's cash?
And I say in return to you:
>Well, quite a number of things, ackshually
Might I also say that it's disingenuous of you to frame Coco and Haachama stepping onto China's politics as deliberate and not something they had to apologize for as a breach of their contract (though this was admittedly to placate China more then anything). China is indeed a contentious subject I imagine livers have to sidestep around, but I don't suppose you'll see Hololive members boldly mentioning Taiwan and later wondering why they didn't get flamed for it like Gwelu did. Gundou was allowed to speak about fascism on stream, Enna made some "orange man bad" jokes here and there. We both know neither of those things would be allowed in the idol company. But I'm going on a tangent here. There are numerous freedoms a member of Nijisanji can enjoy that a member of Hololive cannot, and it is not at all unreasonable for an EN liver to voice gratitude for said freedoms. I'm not going to touch on the 清楚 subject because fundamentally, I agree with you. Utako isn't much for collabing with men, and Lizecorns were quite heartbroken recently at hearing her knowledge of soaplands. It doesn't really matter how seiso they are because a seiso VTuber does not an idol make in the first place. But forgive me if I point out that there's no "u" sound at the end of the word.

>>25846414
The fundamental difference between Hololive and Nijisanji when it comes to being "idols" or not has always just being marketing. Hololive actively pushes that false idea of them being idols whilst their members do all sorts of degen shit that wouldn't fly for mainstream real idols while Nijisanji is honest about it and doesn't put on pretentious airs of being idols whilst they actually aren't behaving like them for the most part.

>>25846809
Real idols interact with males all the time

>>25846898
Didn't mention interacting with males anywhere in my post.

>>25846809
This too is actually worthy of being approached with critique. On one hand, they're being ironic about being idols, making jokes about Yagoo's dream, etc. on the other hand they are very much tightly bound to adhere to a certain code of conduct. It may not assume the same form it does in real life, with regard to being seisou, but it certainly restricts them to a certain aesthetic of seisouness fit of the internet age - and no layer of irony is going to change that.

My core argument is however: Nijisanji livers are to a large extent also bound by this. They're just less explicit about it (whereas Hololive veils the explicitness in irony).

>>25846809
>>25846898
>degen shit
>interacting with males
el /vt/ momento

>>25844902
>apologizes for Vox stream
>“Im glad im free to do and say what i want and not be a caged idol”
what did she mean by this?

>>25847040
This is from a month before the Vox incident. She also wasn't forced to apologize for the incident like an idol might be... and I know this because EN management is absolutely useless.

>>25847040
We're all caged, just in different ways. The cage has enough room for the canary to fly about inside of it, but it's still ultimately trapped behind the steel. In a way, we are ALL idols.

>>25847081
I was just pointing out she's caged whether she's idol or not by the fact of being a corpo chuuba and was wondering where she got the delusion of being free from.

>>25846930
In the literal sense Reimu is correct they can do or say what they want, Nina has straight up said she is "well loved" when the topic of virginity came up for example. Pomu has talked about past relationships. Enna has talked about dating I think. In practice of course many of them know that their value is tied to the perception of sexual availability so don't talk about this kind of thing but that isn't implicitly an "idol" thing to begin with its an everyone in the industry thing that "idols" also do.

they stopped acting as close friends? what happened to thier fake friendship ?

>>25845117
>constantly trying to prove they're not hololive
That's not healthy though. Constantly having to say it because it bothers you that much. That's like when a teenage girl is called a whore and then out of spite goes out and fucks a bunch of guys. The whole "Oh yeah? Well I'll show them!" by proving them right mentality. Knew too many women like that and they never ended up in a good place. To be clear I'm not implying NijiEN are whores, this was just the most common example I encountered, you can just replace fucking with smoking or drinking if that's more relatable

>>25847323
Not even sure what this thread has to do with this.

>>25846930
>Nijisanji livers are to a large extent also bound by this
NTA. so what's niji boundary? politics? sexual stuff? afaik niji boundary is just common sense boundary. you will get shitted if you do lauren move regardless you're niji or not, you'll also get kicked if you breach contract like anywhere else. gwelu and tamaki have full stream openly talking about politics, heck even they got sponsorship from the "lube".

>>25847384
It's not like that though? It's more like some newfag comes into chat and starts referring to them as idols fresh off the boat and then they're just like oh we're not idols so that the person that has had their expectations set by Hololive doesn't expect the same from them.

>>25847384
It's certainly doing them better than if they rode off of Hololive's coattails, getting called leeches from here to there.

Nah come on bro , She just failed the hololive audition.

>>25846726
>Might I also say that it's disingenuous of you to frame Coco and Haachama stepping onto China's politics as deliberate
Of course not. I don't think these people have strong political opinions on any issue. If they do something that upsets people it's most likely accidental.

>Gundou was allowed to speak about fascism on stream, Enna made some "orange man bad" jokes here and there. We both know neither of those things would be allowed in the idol company.
I'm rather sceptical whether Nijisanji approves of political statements and if someone complained to them about it, the talents would get reprimanded. However, I could also see HoloEN making statements along the lines of orange-man-bad; it would surprise me if there were an explicit ban in place. If anything they're advised to not get into political stuff. In fact, you find the same even when it comes to smaller, much more risky and indie companies like Phase Connect. I think it's mostly due to wanting to avoid monetisation or getting in trouble with the platforms - not to mention the risk of twitter mobs forming.

>There are numerous freedoms a member of Nijisanji can enjoy that a member of Hololive cannot, and it is not at all unreasonable for an EN liver to voice gratitude for said freedoms.
As I said earlier: I doubt that they ultimately have significantly more freedom. When push comes to shove, it depends on what viewers complain about and the company will throw their talents under the bus if there's too much pushback. Also, if it were worded as mere gratitude, I would be less confrontational about it. But most of the time it's a kind of signalling distinction at the expense of their competition. Implicitly feminist posturing about things that are in the greater picture - at least in my opinion - meaningless.

I WILL collab with males
I WILL talk about my sex life
I WILL flirt in front of you
I WILL announce my e-celebrity boyfriend afterward
You WILL continue to support me and give me simp bucks

>>25847403
Different standards apply to male livers, especially when they're not coded as idols. Try asking Vox on what he thinks about who Taiwan belongs to or civil rights movements in Hong Kong.

Compare with fubuki vs antis chinese as an idol

>>25847557
>I think it's mostly due to wanting to avoid monetisation or getting in trouble with the platforms
By that I meant: wanting to avoid monetisation cancellation or getting in trouble with the platforms.

>>25847557
I'm not the guy you are replying to but it really seems like you are deadset on dismissing anything that isn't to do with sexual availability as not being a real freedom and reducing everything down to that until no difference remains, then claiming they are the same. Saying you could imagine Hololive doing those things is meaningless, they don't do them that is the point.

>>25847619
>>25847619

Reimu would join the antis side and attack her friends.

>to protect her sub and donate

Hololive aren't Idol either, anyone who thinks that is retarded and don't know any fucking Idols or how Idols in general work

>>25847465
All I'm saying is that she should just ignore them and do her own thing, instead of reminding people that she's not like that. There's really no need to overcompensate. If the newfags aren't there to shitpost then they'll organically realize she's not an idol by watching her. If they are there just to shitpost and she acknowledges them by explaining that she's not an idol it will just draw in more schizos cause they know they can get a reaction out of her

>>25847684
I argue that in the context of this EN posturing being done in an implicitly feminist manner; asserting oneself as independent woman who aren't bound by these patriarchal codes of idol culture. And my critique is: you're not getting at the core of the issue. Playing controversial video games and spouting platitudes about orange men is not making you an emancipated woman.
Also, I mentioned several of the things that Hololive has done that were comparable. They (perhaps accidentally) touched political issues and had controversy around it, Miko and Korone had literal AV actresses on screen during their collab, etc.

I would also emphasise with all significance that Nijisanji is clearly not a platform that generally approves of political content. They won't touch the China issue with a ten-foot pole, and as soon as someone complains they'd throw their talent under the bus and ban the content they were doing.

>>25847810
It's not really something that happens that often for it to be a problem like that. You notice this video is from 2 months ago now. It's just casually correcting a misunderstanding not some nutcases harassing people.

>>25847582
>>nyanner can
>>Vshojo can
and ???

>>25847853
The core of the issue of being idols or not is not sexual availability though. That's an issue of being an online entertainer in general.

>>25847903
>That's an issue of being an online entertainer in general.
I completely agree (even though there are plenty of people who would disagree with you).

Idol culture takes it one step further by making it more explicit. But the rejection of the explicit does not liberate you from the shackles if you adhere to them implicitly.

>>25845517
I would say Matsuri has toned down and become very stable recently. Kanata too seems to be doing fine after her long health hiatus.

>>25845240
>They too maintain the facade of sexual availability because they intuitively realise that if they brought their relationship status into the equation they would lose viewers because the popularity of a vtuber is tied to it
Case in point Elira and Pomu being the top earners an Reimu being bottom of the barrel

>>25847983
It kind of does though? There is a difference between presenting yourself in a certain way by choice and presenting yourself in a certain way because you are an idol. In the first instance you have actively exercised your freedom to do so in the second instance your are conforming to the expectation put upon you.

>>25845517
>doesn't watch the streams
retardchama...

>>25848163
I would argue that the status of being an idol is kept deliberately vague at Hololive too (see what I said in >>25846930). They don't claim that title in sincerity (even though they adhere to the implicit standards to some extent).

And she still had to deal with the type of a drama an Idol would have to deal with it, so what's the point?

How exactly do you guys define what an "idol" is? Some definitions define it as major focus on singer with a mix of dancer, general entertainer, and "personality", some go further and talk about idols "representing the perfect female form" or "displaying the ideal values" of Japanese society, do you think that it's something that far or just singer/dancer/entertainer/personality mix? And if you think it's that simple, how exactly are Niji livers not idols? They seem to fit the bill, they sing and many Niji livers put out songs on their channels, both original and covers, regularly, they dance when they do Nijifes, they're entertainers and personalities all the time. It all seems rather idol-like to me.

>>25848466
NijiEN arent idols but Luxiem (the wave Vox is in) are literally male idols. None of the people sperging out were actual Reimu fans

>>25844902
Who?

>>25845658
kek

>>25845658
Didn't she bow down to fujos recently

>>25848486
While Nijisanji, and most vtubing in general, is a descendant from idol culture with common terminology like "graduation" and "oshi", I think the public image pressures the talents face is much more closer to typical entertainers than the ones idols would face, such as "representing the perfect female form" or "displaying the ideal values" of Japanese society. While pursuing an idol-like career is definitely an option in Nijisanji, it's explicitly the liver's choice to do so. The simplified definition for an idol sounds more like the result of idol culture's impact on the rest of Japan's entertainment industry than an "actual" idol.

>>25845642
I don't think they do, it's just that people are so fucking sensitive these days. You don't even have to insult them directly and they still get offended and want to cancel you. I've seen youtube vids from around 2010-2012 get censored in the 2020's because people can't handle a difference in opinion.

While tech may be improving, it's like we're going backwards mentally.