/vt/ - Virtual Youtubers

>>13790958
Sana is almost at Ina's level I think

>>13791109
Hmm, mayhaps she is. Mayhaps she is. But her pronunciation is dire, it reminds me of the naked American guy from Ga-Rei Zero.

>>13791109
Sasuga Nepotism

>>13790958
Japanese must be Arabic tier hard to learn or maybe Mori just got complacent because how the fuck do you spend five years in a country and not speak its language.

>>13790958
You can ask the same to HoloJP, they got 0 English speaker

>>13792156
Haachama speaks English faggot.

>>13791887
Japanese is top 3 hardest language to learn for a westerner. There is some fucked stuff about japanese

>>13792206
Let's be honest, haachama English is Mori no nihongo tier

>he put calli as a nihongo speaker
LMAO
Mori "naruhodone" Calliope

if council had petra she wouldve been an ace, her japanese skills are super high, can compete with kiara, but she joined niji

>>13792378
Mori is close to Ina, anybody saying otherwise doesn't watch streams

>>13791421
Tbh, I love Sana's Aussie-accented Japanese

>>13792206

>>13792323
As a native Slavic language speaker, French was much much (and I mean fucking MUCH) harder for me to learn than Japanese. Writing system is pretty much the only really difficult thing about it.

>>13791887
Japanese is pretty hard to learn for an English speaker & I have to imagine that the vast majority of her friends are probably other expats

>>13792323
>>13791887
>>13792715
Japan is hard to learn but it isnt hard to get conversational level japanese if you live there for a bit and immerse yourself with japanese friends and talking to japanese people. However Mori has english speakers as all her friends and she just watches english media so she isnt forced to learn even the most basic levels of japanese.

>>13791887
>>13792715
>>13792798
I watched the Trash Taste Japanese quiz stream and holy fuck. Gigguk and Connor spent years in Japan and they couldn't write all hiragana/katakana or the most basic kanji. It was fucking embarrassing. Why live in a foreign country if you can't even be bothered to learn the language?

>>13792399
I think Petra joined Niji because she genuinely prefers Niji. She seems very comfortable there.

>>13792399
>her japanese skills are super high
lmao

>>13792549
Pepperoni is an Italian word. Smooth move, Ex-Lax.

>>13792933
>Why live in a foreign country if you can't even be bothered to learn the language?
To make weebs that won't ever even get to see Japan as tourists seethe.

>>13791887
>>13792374
>>13792378
>>13792429
I saw a tweet from Calli a while back talking about how her Japanese is weird because she can be having a conversation completely in Japanese and then a few hours later she cannot remember the Japanese word for eyelash. She definitely knows enough Japanese to hold a conversation but she seems to have very little self-confidence so she doesn't speak it much on stream, and does a self-deprecating thing where she intentionally speaks the words with a heavy accent. Which leads to this "She can't speak Japanese" misconception.

Japanese levels:

Native tier: Irys
Top tier: Anya
Good tier: Kiara, Reine, Iofi
Okay tier: Bae, Ina
Bad tier: Ollie, Calli, Risu
Shit tier: Moona, Sana

>>13792657
I understand what are you trying to say, but japanese is objectively harder than french. As an Spanish, I learned french during highschool during two years, which is quite similar to Spanish. Yet, I have learnt way more nihongo in only 4 months. Motivation plays a big part in learning anything new, that's way it's easier for us japanese than french.

>>13793250
That's the typical "went to a county and picked up the language by speaking" type. They don't know anything about grammar, kanji, and so on, but can keep a basic conversation if they have to.

>>13793266
Ollie actually speaks Japanese in collabs, I know for a fact that she has trouble with kanji but she comes off as way more confident than Calli. Don't know about Risu since I don't watch her often.

>>13793023
lmao at what. her japanese skills are actually incredibly fucking high. might be better than kiaras, since petras pronunciation is nearly perfect and her otaku knowledge is constantly updated.

>>13790958
Mori went to eat with Suisei and was able to have a full conversation, so her Japanese is passable.

>>13793297
>japanese is objectively harder than french
How? The phonetics is simple as fuck. So is grammar. Spoken language is way more lax than written speech. Word order is mostly fixed (SOV) with some exceptions. Most Romance language are a freakin nightmare compared to that.

>>13793400
Kiara's pronunciation is also perfect. I feel like we can safely put Kiara and Petra at the same level instead of one being better than the other.

>>13793395
Yeah, because Ollie is a social monster and even if she's improving quickly, her Japanese is still pretty bad. She can't even get basic grammar right.

>>13793400
>her japanese skills are actually incredibly fucking high
>petras pronunciation is nearly perfect
once again
rumao roru

>>13793481
Fair enough. More pressingly I just noticed you put Bae in okay tier. Isn't she Anya level? She seems really good at Japanese to me.

>>13793446
What about kanji? I agree that Japanese conjugation and pronunciation is quite easy, but the fucking Chinese characters are really really hard. And don't tell something like bro do your reps, I am already done with N4 and N5 kanjis, so I am know what I am talking about. There's 2000 kanji to reach native level, and most kanji have multiple readings that are even hard at times to natives to learn.

>>13793266
Pretty sure Bae is better than Ina, should at least be between Good and Okay tier

>>13793571
Bae's Japanese seemed just very rusty or lacking practice to me. She's kinda inconsistent. She sometimes doesn't know simple words or makes grammatic mistakes, but sometimes sounds really fluent. Like Ollie, I'm sure she'll improve very quickly because she's not afraid to collab with Japanese holos.

>>13791887
It's the same with immigrants everywhere. They hide in their enclaves or cosmopolitan social circles and never learn the local language.

>>13793533
Petra antis still seething that Uncle Tazumi got her into Nijisanji huhehe.

>>13793647
Yeah, probably. I can't put her in good tier yet with people like Kiara and Reine in it, but she's better than Ina.

>>13793693
Makes sense. It seems like Calli's shyness is really blunting her potential compared to the others.

>>13793642
Like I said a few posts above, writing is the only difficult thing about Japanese language. Then again, it becomes progressively easier once you learn the 1st 500 basic kanji, because from that point onward it's basically combinations and more combinations.

>>13793738
t. EOP

As a person who lived 1½ years in Korea, if you dont make native friends, you will be basically stuck on the level where you can get what you want and be polite about it but at the same time you will struggle with questions and specifics.

You wont learn the language if you hangout with other people who speak english.

>>13793297
Romantic languages are just perceived as easier because people usually already know one of them and can use lateral knowledge.

>>13793788
Yeah, because learning 25% of kanji helps you with the fucking onyomi and kunjomi readings.

>>13790958
Is mori really on the same level as Sana? I swear she was listening and replying in Japanese.

>>13793395
I don't understand how Ollie's jap is like this. Her kanji, reading, and grammar are terrible, but she speaks really well

>>13793926
she literally only cares about speaking it, she doesn't give a shit about other stuff,

>>13793926
That's what 100% confidence does. The biggest hurdle for people learning a new language and wanting to speak it is lack of confidence. She's not afraid to sound stupid.

>>13793876
>onyomi
Gets easier because in 60-70% of cases you can recognize the Chinese reading via one of the elements of the kanji
>kunyomi
Works the same as with any other language. Memorize that shit.

>>13794034
Which is the problem that Mori has, ya boi should do her self confidence reps

>>13793642
Don't disagree, reading and writing is a nightmare. But the topic popped up when talking about someone who've been living in that country for 5 years and has toddler level speech. You can tell she avoids interacting with Japanese people.

>>13794129
>You can tell she avoids interacting with Japanese people
Frankly, most locals aren't exactly chatty types when it comes to cpnversing with foreigners.

>>13794034
We've also been watching Subaru continuously improve at English over the last year or two because she's another one with 100% confidence. We need more of those on the JP side.

>>13792156
Haachama, for how bad her English is, knows enough that you can communicate with her. She’s like Mori is to Japanese
A-Chan (if she counts) is a near fluent speaker as shown when she went on Kiara’s HoloTalk
Subaru is still in the shouty speaking in single words stage of understanding, but she knows enough to talk with the rest of the Holobirds in English
And speaking of Holobirds, the new hawk girl seems like she’s got good fundamentals

>>13794216
On the JP side, the problem is that they feel no need to learn English, unless to collab with the EN/ID holos that don't speak Japanese. Subaru is a westaboo, so it makes sense for her. The only other westaboo I can think of is Fubuki, and... Botan? Oh, Choco's English is pretty good, I think.

>>13794606
>Oh, Choco's English is pretty good, I think.
Is it? I don't really watch her. I'm surprised she hasn't collabed with the ENs more often if that's the case. Is she that type that knows the language but doesn't have much interest in being a bridge?

>>13794701
To be honest, the only time I heard her speak English was in that one telephone game, but her pronunciation was good and she knew the grammar well enough to correct a gramamtically wrong sentence.

>>13793044
1) No it isn't. Pepperoni is as American as Apple fucking pie. Look it up.
2) How new?

>>13793266
Arise cant even speak honorific, native tier my ass

>>13795939
Arise?

>>13795533
>The term "pepperoni" is a borrowing of peperoni, the plural of peperone, the Italian word for bell pepper.

>>13793395
She’s worse at Japanese but more confident than Mori so it evens out.

>>13796674
There's a running joke to call Ollie her "emotional support zombie" because it seems like every time she collabs with a Japanese person, Ollie is there with her.

>>13790958
retarded threadreader

>>13792933
>and they couldn't write all hiragana/katakana or the most basic kanji.
While I agree their knowledge is poor for living in a country for so long. Writing is not language, and isn't necessary in the slightest. Kiara is fluent and has admitted to not knowing how to write kanji.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCdwxdYz6ys

>>13796972
Writing is incredibly overrated anyway. How often do you want to write Japanese away from your computer? Want to scribble a note to someone while visiting Japan?

>>13796928
That sounds about right. To her credit she does have a few good solo JP collabs but she does like to lean on Ollie for some stability in group collabs.

>>13796972
I mean language is inherently verbal and naturally learned that way so I'm not surprised people can speak japanese but treat the written form like egyptian hieroglyphs.

>>13797108
Even if you wanted to write a note couldn't you just write it in hiragana, put spaces between the words, and people will have no problem figuring out what you're saying? Kanji seems really overrated. When a bunch of HoloJPs were playing Undertale I noticed that game's Japanese translation had almost no kanji and mostly just used hiragana and katakana with spaces between the words.

>>13792933
They're literally below Syrian rapist refugees level. Those can at least speak German at the most basic level

>>13792517
I was wondering about this. Why do most people with strong accents when they speak English, have no accent when they speak Japanese? Sana is the only person I've heard where you can still hear an Australian accent even when she's speaking Japanese. And I have watched a lot of Cycle Around Japan.

>>13797223
I've noticed that in manga any kanji in the text is "translated" in smaller print for the readers.

>>13797403
Why would they have an accent? As far as I know japanese doesn't have stupidly inconsistent phonetics.

>>13791887
Lebanese here, arabic is so fucking hard that literally every arab country made their own grammar free dialect/spinoff language, all words and sentences are different from each others and yet somehow by some magic we actually understand what the other person is trying to say. The problem with arabic is that (as much as I hate it) a masterpiece of a language construct (unlike lets say french or german where half the language does not follow rules and you need to memorize it)
Add to that arabic has more letters than most languages which means if you are not used to spell these letters it's very hard to speak it
(think japanese and L)
>>13797272
yeah basically Syrians can speak Syrian arabic and arabic + either french or english or both, as a bare basic lmao, if you know french, german is easier to learn

>>13797223
This. Even in minecraft they write using "regular" letters and have no issue understanding eachother. Yes, they look fancy, and let you flex your rep muscles. Kanji is obviously extremely useful if you know it, but at this point sticks out like a sore thumb as ancient scribbles in a country that could have moved on from it over 100 years ago (evident by Korea doing this and creating a writing system that is a million times more efficient).

>>13797925
I still remember Korone playing TokiMemo with Marine one time and she, a native Japanese speaker, didn't know how to read a certain kanji. It was funny but it also says a lot about society.

>>13790958
They probably thought there would be more collabs with the Japanese speakers. But since it didn't really go that way, they put less emphasis on EN girls knowing Japanese

>>13798567
Also, we've seen that the language barrier doesn't really kill EN/JP collabs all that much.

>>13798618
It doesn't? It's been a year and Ame has only collabed with Mel and Roboco. Gura hasn't collabed with anyone except Nacho. It seems that there are very few people in HoloJP who are interested in collabing with those two.

>>13795939
Arise? is this a meme you made inside your head?

>>13795939
A lot of young Japanese can't either. It's something you learn the hard way when you start working.

>>13798779
By kill. I mean when they do happen, they still get views.
The first part of my post should have made it clear that EN in general probably hasn't been collabing with JP as much as Cover initially thought would happen.

>>13797403
No accent? You're just not wired to hear the accent like you can in English. Sana has a huge accent when speaking Japanese.

>>13798862
But... Ina and Kiara have had a pretty satisfactory amount of collabs. The key? They speak Japanese.

>>13798779
Ame has collabed with Towa (Also for outside of Hololive, Nabi and Ayamy). And Gura has collabed with Shion, Aqua and Marine. But I still agree with what you're saying. Not knowing any Japanese is surely a turnoff for some, and vice versa with English.

>>13796972
>>13797108
>>13797157
>>13797223
Not learning the writing is okay for a foreigner up to a certain level, but you normally wouldn't want to stay illiterate forever.

Writing in Hiragana is what kindergarteners do. It's an incredibly embarrassing thing to do for a grown-ass person.

>>13798981
>Ina and Kiara have had a pretty satisfactory amount of collabs
Are you Cover?

>>13799097
If I said yes, would it change your opinion?

>>13799169
Yes it would.

>>13796674
mori is good at japanese?
she never seems to use it

The only western eceleb I know of who has close to no accent in Japanese is Dogen. Even he apparently needs multiple takes while making his videos.

>>13799415
Because she's not confident.

>>13799464
but how do you know she good then?

>>13799424
Because he actually gives a fuck about intonation. He talks about it all the time, while a lot of Japanese learners claim Japanese pronunciation is simple because everything is pronounced as you'd expect it.

I'm not even at that level yet, but every word has its own intonation. That's what differentiates kami (god) from kami (paper), apart from context, of course. Sure, a Japanese person will know what you mean even if you said it completely wrong, but you will sound retarded.

>>13792323
Not that hard if you're not retarded. It's just that the average person *is* retarded, which is why Japanese ehas this notoriety. Also a lot of people who say this only know English and don't have the different perspective you get from knowing other languages. Learn Arabic, Greek, Finnish etc before commenting.
>>13792156
It's easier to go from English->Japanese than the inverse, since for us we just learn to speak syllabically , but Japs have to learn to pronounce individual letters

>>13792933
Most likely because they never intended to stay there.

>>13793078
This poster is underage.

>>13799415
She’s used it enough to know that she’s at least better than Ollie, at most somewhere near Ina’s level. She lacks the confidence and social intellect to make use of it most of the time.

>>13799580
Indonesian has this too. I can't figure out the rules for it at all. I went and asked the general on /int/ and a bunch of people with Indonesian flags told me not to worry about it, they said as long as you get the word correct nobody will care if you intone it wrong. Seems like a pretty easygoing country.

>>13799573
Back when she started out she used to do full Japanese streams. She was pretty good back then. She just never does that anymore and never busts it out in collabs, so people have forgotten.

ITT: people that do not watch streams or vtubers in general

>>13799583
>Finnish
Our language ain't that hard there's just no reason to learn it so foreigners aren't motivated to get good.

>>13793642
Reading/writing is difficult, but for kanji specifically, you can learn all the jouyou kanji in 9 months by studying 10 new kanji a day (and revising the rest daily). If you also use a vocab deck alongside the kanji one, you'll be able to understand most normal text in a year. Well, "read" might be more accurate than understand, cause grammar also plays a role

>>13799858
I have a question about Finland. Are many Finnish people fluent in English? I used to listen to a lot of Finnish metal and the songs were always in English.

>>13799580
Intonation exists in every single language, it's something you pick up naturally and you don't "need" to train it, and unlike a language like spanish you don't have to learn where to put intonations in written speech so you don't get called a illiterate, and this can't actually be picked up naturally

>>13800026
Yes, most people can understand and speak English. There are differences between different areas, generations, careers but generally most people know English.

We even call it jokingly "the third official language", next to Finnish and Swedish.

>>13800373
Yeah, sure, every word in every language has a specific intonation. But in most languages, using the wrong intonation of a word will not cause it to mean a completely different thing. You just sound a bit weird, but everything's okay. Intonation is very important in languages like Korean, Japanese, and Chinese, which have tons of words that are made up of the same syllables.

>>13793266
Reine japs is top tier better than Anya's. She knows lots of context, masterfull at kanji, knows slangs, and very good at overall structural grammatical knowledge of the nips. She is at the level where she legit qualify for teaching

>>13795533
do burgers really...?

>>13800026
Fluent? No. Good enough to read and write at a functional level? Yes.

>>13790958

Kiara speaks Japanese Ina hide she spoke Japanese very well for like the first 6 months to not mog Cali and Cali barely remembers it. Kronii Bae and Sana can all speak it fairly well and Mumei and Fauna put more into it than AmeSame (Who are too Chad to bow to another language)

>>13800716
>Kronii
Lmao no.

>>13800675
But can she speak in keigo? It's the most impressive thing about Anya. She can speak the formal Japanese even many younger Japanese people struggle with.

But yeah, they're both very good.

>>13800716
>>13800772
Kronii's great because she is well aware that she's awful at Japanese and intentionally plays it up for comedic effect when she's interacting with JPs, so it is very entertaining.

>>13800787
>speak in keigo
Literally the most pointless thing ever these days. Firstly due to the reason stated in your post (not only youngsters, any Japanese around 30-40 can't speak keigo), secondly because even in big Jap companies nobody expects you as a foreginer to know perfect keigo other than some basic stuff phrases.
t. worked in Sony music publishing branch

>>13801025
Debatable. I never liked this "It's good enough for a gaijin" mentality. It's what Kiara has and that's why her Japanese plateaued and it'll never be as good as Irys' or Anya's.

Regardless of that, it's impressive that Anya can speak in keigo. Hence why her Japanese is better than Reine's.

>>13801025
>worked in Sony music
I'm so sorry.

>>13801333
>Hence why her Japanese is better than Reine's.
Debatable

>>13801333
With Kiara's very blunt and straightforward personality, it wouldn't make much sense for her to bother with keigo anyway.

>>13801499
Oh, it's a personality when you come off as rude and over-familiar to older people, your senpai and strangers? It's especially apparent in her talk show. Every now and then, the way she asks a question sounds so rude and she doesn't even notice it. As long as you're happy with being the KY bakagaijin forever, I guess.

>>13801575
>As long as you're happy with being the KY bakagaijin forever, I guess.
YWNBJ, anon. Stop pretending. The Japanese themselves are caring less and less about keigo with each passing generation, and that's perfectly fine because societies and languages change over time.

>>13801575
she will never be japanese and she knows it

>>13801625
>>13801631
What does that have to do with being Japanese? It's learning the language. She doesn't speak like that in German. She would use "Sie" to address a stranger or someone older than her and be polite in German. It's just laziness.

>>13801575
>>13801790
If it was considered rude then wouldn't the JPs have mentioned it to her? I feel like they are not as bothered by it as you are. Which seems like a sign that the importance of keigo is a thing of the past.

>>13801790
You're missing the point, anon. It's not really viewed as strange or outright rude anymore to not be able to speak keigo, because it's a genuinely difficult and very convoluted part of the language, to the point that even the young generations of Japanese don't give a shit anymore.

>IRyS is NATIVE JAPANESE
BROS

>>13801790
kiara doesnt seem to care that much about actually behaving japanese in any way

>>13801972
She's actually Hawaiian, I have no idea what the fuck that first poster was huffing.

>>13802011
Which is really based on her part. There's nothing more pathetic than a foreigner trying to larp as a Japanese or pretty much any other nation

>>13801869
Do you really think they would tell her it's rude when they're on her show? They give her the gaijin pass.

>>13801951
Keigo is alive and well in any formal scenario. If you work at a Japanese company, or have a meeting with Japanese staff, or have to talk to someone more important than you. You never see it in hololive streams because it's friendly casual environment.

Just because you don't see it in vtuber streams, doesn't mean it's not used anymore.

>>13801575
>LE COME OFF AS RUDE IF YOU SAY X OR Y
This is what they teach you in textbooks. It's a gross exaggeration of how people really behave in certain environments. In Hololive nobody will find Kiara rude or overfamiliar because she's not using keigo. If you ever come across shit like that, it doesn't apply to you. Simply because you're a foreigner and you're not judged like a Japanese person.

>>13802066
>I'm so cool because I refuse to fully learn the language of the country I claim to like so much.

>>13802142
Not during the show, but any one of them could have told her afterwards and she could have improved for future episodes. Clearly nobody finds it important enough to mention.

>>13802142
>Keigo is alive and well in any formal scenario
A severely simplified version of it, sure. And not even that will last for long. Just like you don't speak Shakespearean English anymore.

All I'm saying is, Kiara gets the gaijin pass, while Anya doesn't even need the gaijin pass.

>>13802187
Language is meant to be functional. It's perfectly normal to learn and prioritize the most useful parts of living language. Stop crying.

>>13802232
If only people watched Anya more amirite

>>13802267
Yeah, of course. No one starts off learning keiko. My point was that she stopped trying. That's why I said her Japanese plateaued. She decided her Japanese is good enough now. And that's okay. But that's why her Japanese will never be as good as Anya's or Irys's. Remember when Kiara cried on stream saying that Japanese was the only thing she was good at? She doesn't even have that anymore.

>>13802343
>not knowing a dying part of a language means you're bad at it
You really do sound like a pretentious weeb

>>13802224
>Just like you don't speak Shakespearean English anymore.
Villain, I have done thy mother.

>>13802443
oh fug :D

>>13793464
No. I want them to have a Japanese battle. If only.

>>13802429
You keep saiyng that keigo is dying out. Even if keigo should die out in the future, it'll take a few generations at least.

>>13802490
https://files.catbox.moe/glyicb.mp4
Have this instead.

>>13802498
Indeed. And over the course of these few generations keigo will be turning more and more simple until it finally ceases to be keigo. The process if evident even now. Sure, you might impress a few old geezers with your perfect knowledge of keigo, but the majority of Japanese people don't give a shit about it, mostly because they suck at it themselves

>>13802596
Dude, even if only took one generation, it's still relevant for someone who works in Japan or for a Japanese company to learn keigo. It's not the highest priority, but it should be on your to-learn list. I feel like you're projecting your disregard for keigo too much into Kiara not being able to speak keigo.

>>13802903
If Kiara needed to learn keigo, don't you think she would have learned it at some point during the 10 years she was in Japan?

>>13803016
I've been learning Japanese for 10 years too. Keigo is just that hard. That's why it's impressive that Anya can speak it. My God, we're going in circles.

>>13803066
So wait, if you're not done learning keigo, how do you know Anya can speak it?

>>13803118
What kind of logic is that? I understand Keigo just fine, but I can't speak it well. Anya can in a fluent manner and I found it impressive.

Japanese is hard to learn, but no language is impossible to learn if you put in the actual effort. Picrel speaks fluent N1 Japanese, to the point many of her new viewers believe she is a native, having lived in Japan for the same amount of time as Calli

>>13802903
Like I mentioned several posts earlier, I worked in Japan. I also studied Japanese at the university and keigo was obviously a major point in my studies.
However, when I noticed the Japanese roughly my age (25-30) not being able to speak perfect keigo and making shittons of mistakes while trying, I stopped giving a shit. I ceased to use difficult and cumbersome phrases just to impress a few 40-50 old co-workers who by the way also couldn't care less as long as we didn't go full casual with them.

>>13803201
Okay, there we have it. You stopped caring and decided keigo is dying out. Now you applaud Kiara for not being able to speak it. And you don't even know if it's a conscious decision on her part. That's some high-level projection right there.

>>13803307
>You stopped caring
Not before I saw the Japanese themselves not caring enough, yep.
And to me it sounds like you're just salty that some people doesn't see the need to waste their time on learning keigo while you wasted 10 years on studying it still "can't speak it well"

>>13803187
Isn't N1 Japanese actually not all that impressive? It just means you passed a test.

>>13803401
It isn't. Especially since it doesn't test your speaking and writing skills. It only proves that you understand Japanese conversation, texts and grammar to a certain degree.

>>13803401
JLPT as a whole isn't impressive, pretty much like any test that doesn't test your speaking skills.

>>13803430
Yeah. I always thought it was weird how much people namedrop it like it's the ultimate measure of Japanese ability.

>>13803372
I don't know, man. All I said was that Anya's Japanese is better than Kiara's because she can speak a certain part of the language while Kiara can't. I'm sure Kiara would admit it herself. Keigo is her weakness, much like it is for me. Casual Japanese is her strength.

>>13803498
That's probably because a lot of Japanese companies require N2-N1 to qualify for work there

>>13803498
I guess it's because there isn't really a good alternative and Japanese companies often want a certain JLPT level in their job ads.

>>13803523

>>13790958
Kronii and mumei can speak it to Mori's level opchama

>>13804272
I have never heard Mumei utter even a single Japanese word.

>>13804272
>>13804546
One of the questions on Mumei's Q&A stream yesterday was "speak japanese for 30 seconds" and she really struggled

>>13803401
Yea, she's well beyond N1, but I just use it as a metric for EOPs because just saying she speaks Japanese isn't enough to convey just how much better she is at it than Calli is

>>13804732
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHTtFa5gYsQ

>>13804985
How good would you say Luto is? I remember being blindsided when I found out she could speak Japanese. It seems like most Prism members seem to keep it on the down low.

>>13805031
Here's me counting in Japanese.
Null
Sieben
Fünfzehn
Elf
Neunundzwanzig

>>13805073
I would say she's about Ina's level, maybe a little bit higher. Her comprehension is nearly perfect but still lacks some vocabulary and flow in when she is forming sentences on her own, which I chalk up to her not using it in her day to day life.

Her collab with Nacho and Donut was a pretty good example of her Japanese level
https://youtu.be/WUTyNX1CdVg

>>13792374
She fakes being worse at English than she really is.

>>13800373
Beaner here
only when you write emails for work or you try to sound profesional people write intonations, most of text based messaging lacks them or you are a pretentious

>>13803187
why doesnt this girl have more viewers? she just doesnt stream or seomthing?

>>13790958
How about this.
How about COVER hire some JP talents that speak english for once?
A lot of the oversea branch members can speak japanese but only 1 in that speak english in JP, and even that 1 member isn't as fluent.
JP branch leaves a huge hole when Coco left.

JP 6th gen really disappoints me.
I only like Takane Rui so far. She seems like a hardworking person.

Hakui Koyori has a goal to reach 500k by next month. Very brave of her to say that when most of her senpais struggle to reach that milestone.
Only Gura managed to reach 500k within a month.
While her struggles in the past put my sympathy in her. But the audacity man. Disrespecting her senpais.

Sakamata Chloe said she likes money. This seems to confirms the popular theories that the newer gen members are only in it for the clout & money because Hololive is already very famous. While everyone likes money, she really shouldn't say that.
Also, her goals are: 1 tweet per day, reply DM faster, and 下剋上(gekokujou).
I can smell Ayame v2.0 in her. Probably doesn't care that much about Hololive in the first place and only in it for the money.
And 下剋上 is a Japanese term for "Junior overtaking Senior", "Junior dominating Senior", "Retainer supplanting his lord", etc.
Again, the DISRESPECT to her senpais. These goals of her make me sigh in disappointments.

>>13806537
She streams quite often actually, and is in my opinion one of the best EN singers chuubas out there.
https://youtu.be/4xCt_AjkhT0

I think it's just a matter of lack of exposure, and the Prism management isn't really helping in that regard.

>>13806875
but then shiki has a huge following??

>>13806597
Speaking good english is so rare in Japan that it'd be too hard trying to find someone who matches that requirement on top of being a good streamer.

>>13792933
>Gigguk and Connor spent years in Japan and they couldn't write all hiragana/katakana or the most basic kanji.
Seriously? I can write the Kana and I studied Japanese for like 15-20 minutes a day for 2 weeks a few months back. They live in the fucking country and I think at least one of them did language school as well, what the fuck are they teaching them there? How the fuck is being an ironic weeb like them so financially lucrative?

>>13793266
This tier list is kinda shit. Sana, Bae, and Ollie should be higher. IRyS should be a little lower.

>>13792933
It’s the expat bubble. You can survive in Tokyo without knowing any Japanese and you exclusively hang out with other foreigners who all speak English. They may live in Japan but the only time they actually speak Japanese is to say thank you to the Konbini clerk.

>>13807395
Bae and Ollie, arguably, yes. Sana, no. Just no. Her collab with Watame is proof enough.

>>13793266
Moona shit tier my ass. Moona don't even know a single word in Japanese. Not even meme words like nani.
Sana had a short collab with Pekora and they had no issues communicating with each other.
Ollie has collabs with JP and Homostars basically every week and is BFF with matsuri. Her nihongo's definitely way better than Calli's that only says like 2 or 3 words pers stream.
Kiara speaks better Japanese than she does English.

>>13807395
IRyS grew up speaking Japanese, she is a native speaker. She has two native languages.

>>13806937
Shiki blew up from her intro vid getting lucky with the algorithm

Most of the other girls aren't doing so hot in comparison (ignoring gen4 who recently debuted)

>>13807543
The reason I put Moona into the tier list at all is because people think she can speak Japanese because of the whole "Hey Moona" thing.

Sana had a 2 hour collab with Watame and could barely build sentences.

Ollie is doing great, but her grammar is all fucked up. But yeah, her Japanese is better than Calli's and is improving rapidly.

Kiara speaking better Japanese than English is just plain false. She speaks very good Japanese, but she doesn't know much vocab and can only speak very casual Japanese.

>>13805969
I think she has high understanding but a heavy accent that makes it hard for people to tell what the fuck she's saying and makes people think she's stupid, like Hiroyuki Nishimura.

>>13807711
I personally figured Shiki was a Gura situation and they made a killer acquisition but I never kept up with ecelebs until HoloEN came along so I have no idea who all these supposedly famous people from the past that everyone here seems to know all about are.

>>13806597
I don't know about all this bullshit, all I know is that I cannot tolerate high pitched voices for a long period of time so coincidentally Lui is also the only one I like, so I guess we agree in that regard. And there's only the one left now so I really hope she has a pleasant voice. Although I will say I make an exception for Ollie because even though I guess her voice counts as high pitched it has this raspiness to it that tickles my eardrums just right. Something about it does the trick for me so I can always enjoy her.

>>13793000
>she genuinely prefers Niji.
So she genuinely prefers to be a loser, makes sense.

>>13807477
I've never been to Japan, but they need to know some Japanese to know what it they're buying right? Or is there English everywhere in Tokyo, even in stores?

>>13808862
Why don't you go "lose" Coco, LMAO!

>>13808865
Apparently Gigguk can survive there's so that's the measure you need

>>13797403
Interesting point.

I'm observing other Aussie chuubas and so far:
-Luto Araka (PRISM Project) = no accent
-Ban Hada (Nijisanji Korea) = maybe slight Korean accent
-Hakos Baelz (Holo EN) = I'm not sensing an accent from her

But:
-Sara Nagare (PRISM Project) = I might have to observe her a bit.......since she will be preparing for JLPT N5 next year

>>13808254
That is true since she had trouble in Australia for that but even then she plays it up in character. There are some older clips where she is much more calm and well spoken with English.

>>13797619
>>13809242
>>13797403
see this >>13798926

Luto has an accent as well

>>13809242
Becuase theyre 2nd gen asians who are exposed to asian languages. I also think sana is playing up her accent because her japanese sucks to begin with

>>13808865
Not really. In Tokyo & Osaka(really anywhere with a good amount of international visitation) most things are in both English & Japanese since English is the de facto world language. Their visas are all sponsored by companies so they have their support for taxes or w/e other documentation that they require.

>>13793266
>Kiara
>A person that spoke JP so well that JOPs thought she was a hafu
>People say she has a slight kansai accent which is abnormal for foreigners
>Good tier
Your list is shit and so are you.

>>13813938
Sorry to burst your bubble, anon. Her Japanese just isn't as perfect as you'd like it to be. She's fluent, but she still makes mistakes and lacks vocabulary. She often gets stuck in HoloTalk and doesn't know how to explain stuff in Japanese. Take Japanese compliments with a grain of salt. Plus, developing a Kansai dialect just because you learned Japanese in Kansai doesn't make your Japanese magically perfect.

>>13814136
>Take Japanese compliments with a grain of salt.
Why? Why should we trust them over yours? What gives you expertise that an actual Japanese person doesn't have?

>>13790958
>HoloEN
>EN
>english
>Why are they not fluent in Nihongo?
I don't know, anon. Beats me.

>>13814207
Because it's a fucking compliment. Ever heard of the Japanese jouzu meme? Japanese minds are blown as soon as a foreigner speaks fluent Japanese. They don't sweat a few mistakes here and there and a foreign accent.

Irys' and Anya's Japanese is just objectively better than Kiara's. I'm sorry.

>>13814370
>Irys' and Anya's Japanese is just objectively better than Kiara's. I'm sorry
You're still here? Kek

>>13814399
You too, it seems. Weird. We all seem to hang around on this board all day for some reason.

>>13814436
That's nothing. Over on another board I got a thread going and there's this guy seething that it's there. Every 12 hours I post in the thread and the guy is there to yell at me within minutes. He must never sleep.

>>13814436
>We all seem to hang around on this board all day for some reason.
Go to sleep already, you no-life fag!

>>13814546
I can't. Every few minutes, some butthurt Kiara fan shows up and I have to explain again and again that there are levels to being fluent in a language.

>>13808254
>I think she has high understanding but a heavy accent
when she's speaking english seriously she has a stronger australian accent than japanese accent.

>>13814799
Actually she has British heritage so that's her British accent coming through. She just visited Australia, she's not Australian.

>eop's telling me whos japanese is better
cringe

>>13815337
>eop's
>whos

>>13790958
>You've got 2 and then one who I'm fairly certain is almost fluent
mori is absolutely nowhere near fluent

If you EOPs who can't tell the diference insist on a Japanese opinion:

https://twitter.com/lockthebird777/status/1430448439796518914?s=20
EnのVSinger枠のアイリスちゃんはどこ出身か今のところ謎です…今のところ一番自然な日本語使ってる娘ですね。キアラに至っては不定期コーナーのホロトークで通訳司会しててめちゃすごいです

Note how this person thinks that Irys has the most natural-sounding Japanese, while Kiara's is "just" impressive.

>>13814630
>>13815677
Why do you have it out against Kiara?

>>13815677
IRyS's intonation is perfect. Probably because she's a singer, she has the ability to mimic sounds perfectly. Kiara seems probably better at kanji, and has a broader vocabulary, though.

>>13815791
I don't. I didn't say anything bad about her. I made an honest tier list and Kiara fans got all mad about it. In fact, I like Kiara. I watch every episode of HoloTalk and think she does a good job connecting EN and JP holos.

>>13815891
This will make me look like I'm shitting on Kiara again, but no, Kiara doesn't have a broader vocab. You'll often catch her stumbling and wondering how you say something in Japanese, while Irys never has that problem. No idea about their kanji knowledge though.

I was told Irys is a hafu and grew up in Japan, so she should probably not even in a Japanese tier list.

>>13800787
What I don't get is how Anya has mastered keigo but she thinks that the plural of "stuff" is "stuffs."

>>13816135
An English tier list might be interesting, actually. I wouldn't be a good judge though since I'm an ESL.

>>13816266
Really? Your English is very good though. I haven't noticed a single mistake.

>>13816324
Thanks, but I'm sure there's a difference between not making any mistakes and speaking like a native speaker.

>>13816086
You were told wrong. She is a hafu, but she grew up in Hawaii. She was brought up speaking both, as some older relatives spoke mainly Japanese. But she didn't need to read Japanese as a child.

And she has indeed needed to search for words in Japanese, there's a clip of that during the festival prep stuff with Miko and Mio. But she did find it in the end, so possibly just a brain fart. She seems to have that in English as well.

>>13816487
I see. Growing up in Hawaii was probably not that big of a detriment since it's full of Japanese tourists at all times. They love to spend their vacation there. Not being able to read many kanji might change her placing in the tier list a little though. Anya was able to read most kanji in her DDLC stream, so maybe they're on equal footing after all.

>>13816758
I think IRyS actually played it in Japanese too. She says Only Monika instead of Just Monika. Which suggests she played it in Japanese and didn't realize that Monika dake was originally as "just" and not "only".

>>13817275
I wish she played it on stream. I've watched all hololive DDLC let's plays until now. Kanatan's was probably the best. It was interesting how Luna kept complaining about the Japanese translation of the game being clunky and wordy.

In terms of the ones who can hold a conversation Ollie > Kiara > Reine > Anya > Iofi = Risu > Moona >>>>> Haachama imo. Ollie and Kiara are pretty close though, I think Ollie has better pronounciation but Kiara can form more natural sounding sentences that flow together without stilting.

>>13818240
>>13816266

>>13818240
Poor Haachama.

>>13818363
She's still the best JP

>>13818363
Anyone who eats spiders deserves the suffering they bring unto themselves.

>>13818436

>>13797925
Witnessing this pic is the closest I've ever come to being a fan of the rat, hot damn.

Also kek @ anons not thinking there's bizarre-as-hell accents among native Japanese

>>13818687
Thanks for pointing out this post.

>>13797925
Oh boy, what a bad take.

First of all, you're contradicting yourself.

>Kanji is obviously extremely useful if you know it
>evident by Korea doing this and creating a writing system that is a million times more efficient

You admit kanji is extremely useful, which it is, but at the same time, you think a writing system like the Korean one would make Japanese more efficient, which is bull. The only two reasons to keep kanji are efficiency and preventing ambivalence. You can glance over a text passage and only look at the kanji and you can already tell what the passage is about. This is something you can't do in languages using alphabets. And without kanji, Japanese texts would get extremely ambivalent. There tons of Japenese words that are made up of the exact same syllables. The kanji help differentiate them. The context helps too, but you can easily construct a situation where multiple meanings would make sense.

It just sounds like you hate learning kanji and would love it if you didn't have to learn them.

>>13799089
Didn't Aqua give up Kanji recently?

>>13819487
What does that even mean? How does she read the comments or the script when she has to do a promotional stream? You can't graduate from high school without knowing at least a good chunk of the roughly 2100 most useful kanji (the joyou kanji).

>>13818192
Did you know? Lui is going to play it tomorrow.

>>13820756
And I'm looking forward to it. I'm not even a fan of the game, but the holos' reactions to it are great.

>>13794370
There is NO way Mori's japanese is as good as Haachama's english. Haachama would run circles are her while Mori, for her lack of effort, says "sou desune" and "honto ii yo"

>>13820915
That's at 5%. If she used 100%, she would be unstoppable.

I'm getting real sick of EOPs telling me how "easy" Japanese is.
"Just learn 10 new kanji a day, plus all the relevant vocabulary, and you'll learn the whole language in a year"
Yeah, sure. I wonder why Japanese kids don't do this though? It takes them through high school, and they still prefer makes over books...
"Why didn't Mori master Nijongo? She must be so lazy and disrespectful"
I guess she's busy with being a full time streamer, musician, and (formerly) English teacher, rather than autistically grinding the language
"Kiara's Japanese isn't impressive, watch me nitpick her"
Of course she's not some language professor, I don't even think she knows all the formal grammer in her native language. What's impressive is how quickly and easily she learned it, without any actual classes. This is very rare, despite what the internet makes it seem.
"Why don't the Japanese girls speak English"
Because it's really hard. I'm sure they would if they could, it's a massive limitation for them being JOP.

>>13815215
Anonchama, an accent isn't something that's obtained from birth. It's developed as you grow in a region or by listening to others speak. She does have a bit of an Australian accent. It may not be the strongest of accents, but it IS there.

>>13793266
I have some problems with this list, mainly on the lower tier since your higher tier seems fine.

First, Bae and Ollie need to be moved up a tier (Bae to good, Ollie to Okay). Ollie's Japanese certainly has some holes but she speaks it all the time and frequently has collabs with JP holos with no issue at all. I don't think its fair to call her japanese "bad". In fact, I wouldn't call Calli or Risu "bad" either and I think the tier should be changed to "casual conversational". Both Calli and Risu don't know a ton but they have shown that they can hold conversations when they need to.

Next is your "shit" tier. Putting Sana with Moona doesn't make any sense. Sure, Sana certainly doesn't have the best japanese but she played around with Pekora in Minecraft and they communicated with each other just fine. Moona on the other hand is Gura/Amelia tier, aka, she doesn't know shit. Sana probably did more conversating with Pekora in their brief Minecraft encounter than Moona has ever done with Pekora herself.

Native Tier: IRyS
Top Tier: Anya
Good Tier: Kiara, Reine, Iofi, Bae
Okay Tier: Ina, Ollie
Casual Conversation Tier: Calli, Risu, Sana
Barely knows any Japanese at all Tier: Moona

>>13817275
Did monika actually doxx anyone?

>>13790958
>bae likes to use de gozaru
>iroha used de gozaru a lot

why my oshis like this

>>13790958
I'd just like to point out that a much bigger percentage of EN knows japanese than JP knows even basic english. Anyways, the point should be to hire good streamers (or singers, or dancers) first, nothing is really keeping them from doing large collabs (like the two big Minecraft ones they already had), and there's a million other things keeping them from doing one on one collabs too. I'm sure Okayu would love to collab with Gura, or Miko with Ame, but when the fuck would that even happen? What would they even play together?

>EN branch

>>13814370
>Because it's a fucking compliment. Ever heard of the Japanese jouzu meme?
the meme is about japanese people complimenting you personally about your good japanese. There is absolutely no reason why japanese people would compliment Kiara's japanese in her abscence on 5ch or untagged twitter conversations.

>>13816086
Kiara also struggles with finding the right words in german. This isnt her having bad vocab or only knowing casual german, since it happens with simple german words aswell. Some peoples mind just go blank in conversations from time to time. They speak and mid sentence try to change up the content of their sentence or generally rethink, what they want to convey and cant think of the right word when put on the spot. If anything Kiara has a slow brain in conversations every now and then.

You cant just claim someone has bad vocab and only base it on "she struggles and pauses sometimes in conversations". While bad vocab is a potential reason for it happening, it is by far not the only cause.

>>13824985
Why would an EOP tell you Japanese is easy? Isn't it usually overconfident people?

>>13826559
I would like to know if Moona has a specific regional accent or something because not only is she the only HoloID who doesn't seem to know any Japanese, but she easily has the heaviest accent of all six. It's funny that she of all people was the one who got famous from playing a lot of Minecraft with JPs.

>>13827900
Bro the debut is right now, how the fuck did you know what Iroha uses seven hours ago. Also why are all their voices the same, La+ and Koyori and Iroha all have the same voice and Chloe sounds like Noel. Lui is the only one with a voice who doesn't sound like somebody else.

>>13839222
>It's funny that she of all people was the one who got famous from playing a lot of Minecraft with JPs.
Well, she's the only one who was autistic enough to play MC almost 24/7. She was unironically very lucky.

>>13801790
>She would use "Sie" to address a stranger or someone older than her and be polite in German.
Her guests on Holotalk are neither strangers nor older in most cases.
And you would not use "Sie" in this entertainment environment anyway

>>13795533
WE WUZ PEPPELONI

>>13843509
That post you're quoting was from a discussion about whether Kiara would need to learn keigo or not. She would not use "Sie" when addressing other holos, but she should use some keigo when talking to a senpai for the first time, at least until the holo tells her not to.

In b4 YWNBJ. It's just basic Japanese etiquette.

>>13843321
You know what's funny is, so is Pomu, and she plays on the world server, and plays off stream constantly, but nobody in Nijisanji plays Minecraft so she hasn't really run into anyone. Meanwhile Selen who plays Apex has collabed with a fuckton of Japanese people despite not knowing any Japanese. Before I got into Niji I kinda assumed Minecraft was just a popular game in general but turns out it's really just Hololive it's popular with. Nijisanji is the Apex company. Mind you there are plenty of people in Hololive that play Apex but it's a game where you play solo and still get queued up with teammates so it's kind of a different situation. So I feel kind of bad for Pomu, if she'd gotten into Hololive she would have been huge by now and probably befriended Pekora and joined Usaken. That said I'm still happy for her that she has a game that she can play alone without anyone bothering her, something nice to clear the mind and relax when she's not streaming. I feel like as a vtuber it'd become easy to lose interest in playing games when you're not streaming them so it's good for her she has a game that she's still so invested in off-stream.

>>13844309
I feel like it's the difference between Holo in general. Marine and Peko were talking about how they'd love another game like Ark where they all can play together. Minecraft is what they resort to. Holos love to play together with each other as a big collab. Niji doesn't do this as much and most niji like to just do their own thing.

>>13844498
Well, that might be true of JP Nijis, but EN has quickly become the masters of the unplanned collab where they don't even announce it but just hop on Discord during each other's streams all the time. So it feels like even when they're not strictly PLAYING together they certainly seem to like to talk to each other a lot. I used to watch NijiID a lot more before EN debuted and they did this a lot too but I don't know if that's worth mentioning since ID branches are pretty unique in general.

>>13806597
well after iroha's debut we can safely say that we only have Rui in gen 6 who can barely speak english.

>>13845331
Barely is underselling it. From what she said, Ruimight already be the JP holo with the best English. Just needs a bit more practice.

>>13845331
>>13845421
She has English learning as one of her goals too. I feel like she is the one Holo who will have the actual determination to get better at English and collab with ENs.

>>13845421
I'd say she's around basic conversational level already. Next to her would be Subaru as the next best English speaker in JP. What is it with birds and knowing multiple languages.

>>13845421
>>13845465
well i was kind of exaggerating, but i'm interested to see if she will actually study English or if she'll just do Duolingo for a week and then never mention English again.

>>13845834
funny because i really enjoyed the holotori collabs that they did, the worms collab they did was really fun and I don't see people mention it enough when talking about holotori. Actually, people don't talk about holotori enough in general when talking about EN x JP collabs. With the addition of Mumei we lost the EN+JP streak though

>>13845421
I think she's around A-Chan level English, maybe?
Sounds even similar to boot.

>>13847446
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQBJ1QFXVCQ
still slipping the Ls into Rs a few times.

>>13800526
English and many other languages distinguish a question and a statement only with intonation

>>13848318
That goes for every language. You can do the same thing with Japanese by omitting か and raising the last syllable.

>>13846238
>EN x JP collabs
Reine...

>>13846238
>EN x JP collabs
Reine...
No, but seriously. The worms collab isn't talked about much because they only recently did a full Holotori collab where it was mostly in English. All of the past one-on-one collaborations with Subaru have always been in Japanese. Subaru's reps have certainly been paying off though. The ENxIDxJP Gartic Phone collab, her collabs with Moona, and now the Worms collab have all been mostly in English where she isn't at all lacking at adding on to the conversation.

>>13849203
kek i meant the collabs where they spoke English and Japanese, not the branches

>>13794197
not true, old men love coming up to you and practicing their unintelligible english

>>13800373
i don't think this is true at all.
before japanese learning materials started teaching pitch accent more commonly, many foreigners achieved "fluency" without even being able to detect pitch accent changes or knowing it exists. a couple of weeks near the beginning of your studies learning about pitch accent patterns and practicing hearing them will go a long way to improving your accent in japanese.

>>13816390
yeah i think a lot of native speakers just kind of ramble like this, not really caring about perfect grammar. it's assumed that most people can understand what's being said without perfect syntax.
i know exactly how to write that previous section perfectly, but i don't care and it doesn't sound like speech. written language and spoken language are different, so when trying to communicate, many people just adopt the spoken language approach but in text form.

>>13792323
Just because you're a retarded monolingual who failed to pick up a second tongue doesn't mean it's one of the hardest.

>>13802210
from experience, japanese people will almost never confront you about mistakes when speaking their language, even if you kind of sound like an idiot. as long as they get the meaning, which they're generally pretty good at with foreigners, they don't really care. even if you ask them to correct your speech they'll do it like twice and then stop. they would only say something if you said something really fucking rude without knowing, and even then they would just be like "ah, we don't really use that phrase". just a cultural thing, but it makes it harder for learners to figure out exactly what they're doing wrong.

>>13850018
Makes sense. Meanwhile, as an ESL, I have a bit of an inferioirty complex and I'm afraid of making a mistake, which is why I usually write like I'm answering a question on a test.

>>13850159
This so much.

No one has yet corrected Ollie saying aru for people instead of iru. They simply repeat what she said with iru instead, hoping she'll pick it up, but she doesn't. Has she fixed it yet? Also, she loves to sing the School Days song whenever she's sad, but she always sings the lyrics wrong and no one corrects her. I have nothing against Ollie. Just posting examples.

>>13850460
I saw this happening on a travel show once, Curious Traveler or something. She pronounced sake like "saki" and the Japanese guy didn't correct her but he made a point of pronouncing it sake and she seemed to pick up on it because she said sake next time. Talking to a Japanese person is a real test of if you actually pay attention to what the other person says or if you just like to hear yourself talk.

>>13804272
this is not true. kronii is alright and mumei shows a lot of promise, but it's very obvious that calli is better, even though she's nowhere near where she should be with that amount of time spent in the country.

>>13809295
can you provide any examples? i've never been able to find haachama actually speaking intelligible english, it's always pepeloni tier.

>>13845945
yeah, duolingo is pretty trash. bae is doing on-stream language learning correctly. learning words, grammar patterns, etc. forming example sentences to try using them, and asking the jp bros for corrections and input. i think sora did something similar with english and i did notice some improvement since she was pretty consistent with it for a while.

>>13807808
i would say that ollie is more conversationally fluent because she doesn't have an autism barrier like mori, but if you know some japanese you'll notice there's a lot of times where ollie just doesn't know what the fuck was just said and just says some meme shit. mori seems to understand a lot of what's being said but she's the epitome of spaghetti and can't form sentences on the spot (which I would agree is indicative of a lack of fluency; i just wanted to point out that her listening comprehension seems higher).

>>13850460
I stopped watching her months ago when after a JP Only stream she tried doing because I realized she still just cannot use ageru/kureru at all. Has she finally figured out how to use that or does she still speak like a 3 year old?

>>13850729
Ollie during the Among Us stream with JP people was really hard to watch because it was clear she couldn't follow. I get it though, that many native speakers going full power like that at the same time's difficult to follow if you're not fluent, especially when you're expected to respond.

>>13850751
nvm I misread this, I thought it was about Calli. Ollie is definitely above the level of a 3 year old.

>>13850729
>>13850824
Do you have any specific examples of Ollie not understanding and saying "some meme shit"? Not that I don't believe you, I'm just curious what she said.

>>13850751
Never heard her use ageru/kureru. She's picking up a lot of phrases as she goes, so she can often come up with a convincing answer on the spot, but as soon as she has to word her own thoughts, she gets stuck. I hope she studies grammar on the side.

>>13850875
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PduZi1i6glI

This is from that Among Us stream. She never really tried to argue or talk with people. Kiara jumped in there specifically because Ollie had been quiet the entire stream while her and Irys had been talking just fine with the JP people. So she tried this character thing and kept injecting the laugh into conversations at random after because she can't really debate with anyone.

>>13807672
>>13807707
Holy fuck, they should be deported for this.

Just to clarify, we're not shitting on Ollie. Ollie is making the best of her still pretty bad Japanese. It's amazing how she's not afraid to collab with Japanese people and she somehow makes it work, while people like Ina or Calli with arguably better Japanese can't do it. I wish Ina had more confidence. During the umisea collab, I was hoping she'd speak in Japanese more so that we get a Ina x Marine collab, but I'm afraid she simply confirmed Marine's fears that the language barrier is still too big for collabs.

>>13807672
>>13807707
the ABSOLUTE STATE

>>13839026
Because in average it takes about the same time to learn japanese as it takes to learn any other language save for the ones in the same family as your native language (ie romance languages). People just meme it as hard and, when people don't find it hard, they call it easy.

>>13851376
Yeah, looking at this video >>13851086, I think Ollie still did a good job making the most of her inability to follow the conversation, she had great comedic timing which is important for a good streamer and at least in this match it was a good move to exit humorously when she knew she didn't have the skill to defend herself. So there are certainly ways to work with the language barrier even if it's suboptimal compared to actually being fluent.

>>13807808
Kiara's English ability is very ESL-tier so it's not hard to see how her Japanese is better than her English.

>>13851736
Yeah, having the presence of mind to still turn it into a fun joke is definitely a good thing. I'm sure she'll do fine if she keeps studying the language since the other half of improving on a language you're trying to learn is having the confidence to actually use it. Which she does. Gotta start somewhere.

>>13851842
I miss when Kiara said stick like shtick, felt like I was watching Green Acres.

>>13851648
objectively wrong

>>13853023
* Languages preceded by asterisks are usually more difficult for native English speakers to learn than other languages in the same category.

forgot this part, kek

>>13853023
>learning any language in 24 weeks no matter how close it is to your native language
This is the same kind of scam as the so-called polyglots I see on youtube all the time, who claim to have learned two dozen languages, and when you actually listen to what they're saying, they sound like shit in every language with a huge accent and keep making mistakes in every sentence.

>>13853511
It’s 24 weeks of solid daily classroom time to become “proficient”, which is obviously quite a nebulous term.

>>13853511
24 weeks at around 25 hours per week for a closely related language. this is the standard used for training US diplomats. of course it doesn't guarantee native level fluency; that takes a lifetime of learning.
this is naturally different from an average learner spending an hour a day or so.

>>13853023
>The Foreign Service Institute (FSI) has created a list to show the approximate time you need to learn a specific language as an English speaker. After this particular study time you will reach “Speaking 3: General Professional Proficiency in Speaking (S3)” and “Reading 3: General Professional Proficiency in Reading (R3)”

The problem is the proficiency in reading requirement. You have to learn a lot of kanji for Japanese, which makes it look like it was this super difficult language. If all you wanted was to communicate verbally, you wouldn't need that much more time for Japanese than for most of the languages in that list.

Chinese though... The fifth category should only contain Arabic and Chinese imo.

>>13854305
if someone could only speak and understand spoken english, i would not say that they are fluent in english.
you don't know a language if you're illiterate in that language.

>>13854305
>The problem is the proficiency in reading requirement. You have to learn a lot of kanji for Japanese, which makes it look like it was this super difficult language. If all you wanted was to communicate verbally, you wouldn't need that much more time for Japanese than for most of the languages in that list.
Reading proficiency will make learning the language easier in the long run, and if you're going to spend so much time getting verbal shit down you may as well just double down and do both regardless.

>>13826559
Sana recently had a 3+ hour solo collab with Watame and was talking constantly, she's better than a lot of people realise. Like Ollie and Subaru she's confident enough to sound stupid but that's how you improve.
https://youtu.be/JH28c7TqasQ

>>13854373
I agree. I just wanted to clarify that understanding and speaking Japanese isn't harder than your average other language. And this is often what most weebs want, but they're discouraged by this prejudice that Japanese is so hard. In the long run though, you will want to learn reading and writing as well.

>>13851648
But the point is an EOP wouldn't be calling it easy because an EOP hasn't learned the language.

>>13844309
Pomu's streaming Minecraft now and the stream is called "peace, tranquility, minecraft." Is she reading this thread?

Bump

>>13861163
I think everyone's said what they think about this topic. Let it die unless you have something constructive to add.

>>13790958
I prefer Myth, but you're delusional if you think their JP is better

>>13818240
I’d put Ollie above Kiara. Watching the streams, both speak English perfectly understandably, but Kiara occasionally has issues with phrasing that sound unnatural (though understandable). Meanwhile, Ollie sounds like an American born and raised English speaker when speaking English. Almost never struggling to form a phrase, and very natural sentence structure.