/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.3717975]

Don't mind me, just the best storyline in the history of video games passing through.

>no real hero
>doomsday clown BBG destroys the world
>you can kill him, but you can't stop him
>reason? you wanted...a reason?
>ending credits sequence is escape from tower
>where characters go afterwards nobody knows
>and they still manage to fit in comic relief

[Anonymous No.3717978]

>>3717975
>Don't mind me, just the best storyline in the history of video games passing through
Sorry i can't see you, there's a FFVI pic in the way

[Anonymous No.3717980]

>>3717975
You just described why it is the most boring generic shit ever.

[Anonymous No.3717983]

>>3717978
No worries hoss, there's another one underneath it.

>>3717980
Not even remotely. Boring and generic is DQ1. And I like DQ games. Sometimes you want generic. But FF6 is on a whole other level.

[Anonymous No.3717986]

>>3717975
>>where characters go afterwards nobody knows
Terra goes back to her orphanage
Edgar returns to his castle
Shadow makes his peace with hist past and moves on
Umaro goes back to the mountains of Narshe
Sezter isn't going to give up the playboy lifestyle
I could go on, point is your're full of shit OP. Except FF6 is a great game, so maybe you're not full of shit.
tfw Ultros and Siegfriend's plotlines are unfinished

[Anonymous No.3717995]

>"best storyline in the history of video games"
>loses all momentum in the second half and goes to shit
>joker ripoff villain who's evil for teh lulz

if that's the best storyline video games have to offer I'd hate to see the worst

[Anonymous No.3717998]

>>3717975
It's not terrible but really, best storyline of any game? It's above average I suppose. Development of the characters is uneven, some don't get enough because of how large the cast is. Kefka has some funny lines but is a weak villian. Yeah he destroyed the world but all did to do it was push some statues over. And then what does he do? He sits in a chair and does jackshit. He has no real motivation or goal.

[Anonymous No.3718012]

>FFVI fans
>Having a respectable opinion

Loving every laugh.
http://blog.hardcoregaming101.net/2010/02/final-fantasy-vi.html

[Anonymous No.3718017]

>>3717986
But even *you* don't know what happens there. I agree, some of those ideas make sense. But the game doesn't spell it out for you. So maybe that happens and maybe it doesn't. I agree, some of that sounds plausible so maybe. And the ending does suggest, with the birds and the flowers and so on, that things will eventually patch themselves up again. But it's definitely not spelled out for you and I think that's brilliant.

>>3717995
See, I see it totally differently. The game doesn't lose all momentum. The momentum ends in a fucking disaster in the middle. If it ended any other way it wouldn't work.

Evil For Teh Lulz shouldn't work, but in this case it actually does. A crazy guy blows up the world for laughs. To me that's way better than Tragic Reason X (followed by world-saving through Oh Shit He Forgot This Reason Y). What would be worse than blowing up the world? What reason could *anyone* have for doing that other than just being totally insane (in this case, from magic experimentation gone wrong)?

The ending is anticlimactic, I agree. The last battles are too easy. But when you subvert the rules and nuke the world in act 2 there really isn't going to be much left over.

>>3717998
>Yeah he destroyed the world but all did to do it was push some statues over. And then what does he do? He sits in a chair and does jackshit. He has no real motivation or goal.
That's the thing. He doesn't need one. And when the characters get there he just laughs in their faces.

What reason could anyone have for blowing up the world? Any reason other than laughter would be boring. Kefka is as close to Friedrich fucking Nietzsche in a game as you could ask for. Not the good parts. The shitty parts. He's an amazing villain.

[Anonymous No.3718035]

>>3718012
From that link:

>The saddest thing is that we still don't have the vocabulary – nay, the poetry – to celebrate Final Fantasy VI properly. Most of the praise that this profound little anti-Earth has gotten is as clumsy as its criticism. The words aren't here yet, but we're coming close... they're somewhere, to be sure, stashed away in the brain of some basement-inhabiting uber-dweeb romantic, waiting for the right moment to emerge. Final Fantasy VI is like Lovecraft's Old Ones, bidding its time, influencing the aesthetics of the world in ways we can't – perhaps, won't live to – ever see.

>The War of the Magi has never really stopped and Final Fantasy VI will no doubt continue its unseen jihad, unnoticed and unheard until our blessed day of reckoning. When the silly works of today will be nothing more than a footnote in the Final Fantasy-era of art history.

Pretty cringeworthy in going so over the top but I basically agree with most of what he says. I don't think the doomsday clown who lost his mind as a product of magic-tech experimentation really needs much further development. Maybe a scene or two was missing when they turned him from a normal guy into a monster but otherwise I'm fine with Kefka Palazzo.

[Anonymous No.3718039]

>>3717975
>>doomsday clown BBG destroys the world
You call that a destroyed world??

[Anonymous No.3718054]

>>3717975
>[trigger warning needed]

that said, best? well, it's a lot better than the shit people usually claim is better

story aside, the evade bug is positively zettai ni yurusarenai. how do you fuck up something so basic and important? even though it doesn't stop you, you *know it's there*

[Anonymous No.3718068]

>>3718039
That is pretty fucking destroyed, it's true.

I guess I just like that Kefka dementedly stands on top of it and loudly declaims what he is doing. He's *human*. Insane, but human. Don't get me wrong, I'm not all about world destruction myself. There is more to FF6 than just Kefka.

And Chrono Trigger is no joke either because Lavos is essentially doing the same thing. But because you start in a fantasy/green world and end in a post-apoc/dark world, that you get to see it all blown up...to me no other game has come close to this. And of course it's all forecast at the beginning, the mech-suits marching off with the prelude.

I wouldn't have a problem with anyone who thought CT was their favourite game. Different tastes and all. Phantasy Star 2 kind of did this at the end, when you beat Dark Force and Mother Brain, and then you have to fight the humans who have already destroyed Algol, in that credit sequence...so it's not like all of this is *completely* original. Tactics had a pretty good storyline as well, certainly a more baroque and complex one. But 6 is my pick.

[Anonymous No.3718083]

>>3718054
Yeah, for mechanics and so on that's another thing. To some degree I kind of like games that don't actually sweat balance so much, like Master of Magic or Master of Orion. Sometimes you want to exploit stuff and have a power fantasy.

But those are 4x games and in an RPG maybe you do want some kind of power scale. I always liked Setzer, but obviously the Genji Glove/Offering combination w/fixed dice can one-shot nearly anything. So I would have preferred, for sure, maybe some retooled mechanics to make the battles more challenging...but they put in some of those easter egg battles in the advanced/remake versions anyways.

And seriously...does anybody *not* want to live in Narshe? We could easily do a favourite towns in /vr/ thread - how many of those have been done already, who knows - but Narshe would be in my top 5 for sure.

[Anonymous No.3718085]

>>3717975
The SNES can't render that trash

[Anonymous No.3718091]

Terranigma has a significantly better story (and it's still not great but it's the best I can think of off the top of my head) but I think it would go over the head of someone who actually thinks FF6 is good.

[Anonymous No.3718093]

>>3718085
Nice youtube comment.

[Anonymous No.3718110]

>>3718091
I started Terranigma 2 or 3 times, but fizzled out pretty early on. the graphics, music, and sound are great, but the gameplay was too...easy? the way you just walk away from a fight and regain health is a really weak mechanic IMO. which turns the focus to puzzle-solving i guess, but the combat seems pointless because you can just leave fights when you're hurt except for, i'm assuming, the bosses.

does the combat get more engaging or challenging?

back to the point, the story did seem kinda neat though, and the underworld music is tits: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeKAB1V4zTE

[Anonymous No.3718115]

>>3718110
>does the combat get more engaging or challenging?
No

[Anonymous No.3718118]

>>3718091
>someone who actually thinks FF6 is good

Give me a break. FF6 is good. It's fucking outstanding. We can disagree on where in the pantheon it is but that it's in there at all is not up for debate. I would love to see it remade as a movie. I still don't know why they made that retarded Final Fantasy movie when they already had the games.

Didn't play Terranigma, for what it's worth. Plot does look neat, I won't shit on it.

[Anonymous No.3718137]

>people unironically thinking FF6 is bad

Is this the dank new meme?

[Anonymous No.3718142]

>>3718110
>the way you just walk away from a fight and regain health is a really weak mechanic IMO

You lose that ability early on. That said, the game never gets particularly challenging.

[Anonymous No.3718148]

>>3718137
Easier than my favorite games, so it's casual babby trash.

[Anonymous No.3718150]

Terra's Theme started playing in my head just from looking at the screenshot in the OP.

[Anonymous No.3718157]

>>3718137
/vr/ hates any game. This place thrives on telling other anons how shit their taste is no matter what their favorite game is.

[Anonymous No.3718161]

So does everyone take to the final battle at the end? Not like it's so easy that you even have to think about it, but just out of curiosity.

I roll with what (I think) is the boring canon: Terra, Celes, Edgar, Sabin. Locke, who is also canon, just barely misses the cut, but it's basically a coin-flip. And if you put both of them in then you have to leave out one of the twins and I just can't do that. Terra always goes. The rest of the B-team is Setzer, Shadow, and Mog.

Again, though...this is all part of the genius of this game. None of the characters really feel like throwaways. They've all got a personality, and even though they're pretty much just tropes that's what actually makes it so repayable to me. There isn't just one boring emo hero who feels alienated. They're all just sort of flung together, and the branching plotlines and reunion stuff in part 2 brings that out.

Anyways enough about me. Who are the first four characters you guys take to the tower?

[Anonymous No.3718163]

>>3718137
>if you don't think its the best storyline in gaming history then you think its bad

[Anonymous No.3718164]

>>3718161
>None of the characters really feel like throwaways
setzer
mimic
feral kid
shadow

>There isn't just one boring emo hero who feels alienated
celes is emo as fuck

[Anonymous No.3718168]

>>3718164
I never use Umaro. Ever.

[Anonymous No.3718174]

>>3718168
he's such a throwaway character that i even forgot about him

i never used relm either, but at least i can remember her and strago's names

FF6 is full of disposable characters

[Anonymous No.3718179]

>>3718174
I forgot about Relm shes worthless too. I thought about playing BNW, but then id be forced to use Characters I hate.

[Anonymous No.3718193]

>>3718164
>setzer is throwaway
>setzer
>throwaway
>is

Bro. The fucking scarred wild-man gambling addict with a casino airship who kidnaps opera stars because they remind him of his lost adrenaline-junkie partners?

Setzer is fucking amazing!

Anyways...Gau is goofy, but he's fun, and he has that weird relationship with Cyan, who is dark & brooding his family. That's a nice touch. He's also possibly the strongest character in the game (see 'wind god Gau').

The mimic is an awesome easter-egg reward for being insane enough to let your entire party get swallowed up by the zone eaters. What could be better in there than an easter-egg character who can mimic the others?

And Shadow is a cowboy loner ninja with a cool dog (and a pretty interesting backstory too, w/Relm). Who the game allows you to wait for, if you were crazy enough to want to see what would happen if you let the clock run all the way down on the floating island...

I don't know about you, but I genuinely like seeing all of these characters take part in the story, show up in the ending credits, be just wandering around on the airship or whatever where you can talk with them, switch them in and out, and go exploring elsewhere. Even the yeti really is a yeti. He does what a yeti does, lives in a cave with a skull on it. I like all of them.

I mean, I can't lie. Strago and Relm are on the fence for me. I get that every town or most every town had to give you a character, but by the time I get to them I really don't care. But they're cool enough and round out the squad.

[Anonymous No.3718197]

>>3718193
just because you like them doesn't make them any less disposable or uninteresting. i like cait sith but he's a little shit that could be scrapped from FFVII any minute and the game wouldn't suffer one bit because of it.

[Anonymous No.3718205]

cont'd from
>>3718193

And wouldn't it be weird if Celes wasn't emo? She gets the shit beat out of her in prison by her own army's soldiers, wakes up in the apocalypse she failed to prevent from happening, gets to watch Cid die - in fairness, mainly by feeding him rotten fish, but who's asking - and she knows is another magitek experiment like Kefka, the product of an empire which helped to destroy the world and now is completely gone. I mean, if she were anything but emo it would be pretty weird.

>but fuck it who needs reasons when you have the power of ass magic from deviantart

[Anonymous No.3718219]

>>3717975
It's good but I can think of better snes jrpgs.

Chrono trigger, dragon quest v, metal max returns, and earthbound are better in my opinion. The game falls apart in the world of ruin.

[Anonymous No.3718224]

>>3718205
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=D4wUeSPK8Tg

You can save Cid though.

[Anonymous No.3718227]

>>3718197
No doubt. I understand that for sure. Tastes vary of and people gravitate towards different characters.

The thing is, if Cait Sith *was* scrapped from FF7, then you would lost a character you liked, which would have been a loss all round. Maybe you wouldn't have enjoyed the game, told your friends, tried the sequels, prequels, etc. He's not super-important, but I think that's getting at the magic of how these games work. It's all in the little details, the little extra things, the little touches, musical cues, moments of comic relief, etc that make you feel like you're really seeing something that people invested in. And creating a character people relate to, from a development standpoint, is maybe one of the best achievements of all.

Cait Sith never did much for me but the developers were on to something pretty cool by putting in a whole range of characters like that that people could relate to, and I think it worked. And of course in FF7 they caught absolute lightning in a bottle with Sephiroth.

There's definitely a tone shift between those two games as well. FF6 is explicitly steampunk baroque, and FF7 way more modern. Especially in the remake shots. I still prefer the baroque, I think.

[Anonymous No.3718228]

>>3718068
Yeah, but it's still not a seriously destroyed world like in Chrono Trigger or Terminator Future Shock, Fallout, Forsaken or either of the Dark Sun games.

And in Fire Fight, you get to BE the one to destroy worlds.

[Anonymous No.3718238]

>>3718227
There's always a fan for every character. Even the most annoying ones. Even Tingle has fans, for christ sake

Point is, i wouldn't say "FF7 had such a memorable cast of characters, no throwaways" because that wouldnt be truth. Cait Sith, Vincent and Yuffie could easily be scrapped and the game would still work. In fact they should definitely have scrapped Vincent and the world would be spared of that shitshow that was Dirge of Cerberus

Same with Umaro, Relm, Gau, Shadow, Strago, Gogo and etcetera - they have their small stories ingame, but they're irrelevant to the larger picture of the game, unlike people like Edgar and Celes for example. so yeah, the game still has throwaway characters, even if we like them.

[Anonymous No.3718242]

>>3717980
I don't think you know what generic means.

[Anonymous No.3718245]

>>3717975

That actually doesn't sound very good at all.

[Anonymous No.3718249]

>>3718224
Yeah, it's another nice little touch, that. I wasn't one of those perceptive types who tried to save him with the healthy fast fish. One of those things about games: in a basic story treatment, Cid obviously dies. But in the game, you can actually have it both ways with branching paths. And smart designers understand that there might be people out there crazy enough to try it. FF6 is full of stuff like this: the zone eaters, waiting for Shadow, lifting the curse on the paladin shield, wagering for the Illumina...

One thing I could never figure out was what was going on with Atma weapon. It looks insanely awesome and powerful, and the music is so fucking epic when you get there, so you figure you're in for something huge. And the Atma sword of course looks like the most powerful weapon in the game. But the fights are both weirdly easy and then that's that. Anybody else have a theory about this? Other than, lol designers are stupid?

>>3718219
Yeah, all good picks. FF6/CT/Earthbound is probably a revolving door, any one of them could be called #1. I guess I skew still a little more towards high fantasy stuff, and Earthbound really likes to get deconstructive with the tropes of the JRPG. If Earthbound didn't exist we'd have to invent it. JRPG stuff was just so solid & workable that there had to be a game that messed around with you like that.

DQ5 I was playing this summer to see what all the hype was about and I thought it was okay. I preferred the DQ3 remake. And 8 is the best of that bunch, I would say, but to each his own.

>game falls apart in world which falls apart
I know what you mean tho. It does, in a sense. But it's also because you're freed up to explore it how you like, you're not on rails with the plot anymore. And, again, because the real disaster already happened, and that's really why I have such high praise for the game in general. You can't stop the bad guys, and you can't save the world. But you keep going. To me this is huge.

[Anonymous No.3718252]

>>3718238
Im pretty sure every FF has throw away characters.

FF1 - Monk
FF2 - They throw them away for you
FF3 - Has some useless classes
FF4 - They throw them away for you
FF5 - Has some classes you wouldnt ever use
FF6 - You mentioned them
FF7 - You mentioned them
FF8 - Selphie
FF9 - The long tongue thing
FFT - Has plenty of classes that suck

[Anonymous No.3718275]

>>3718238
>Cait Sith, Vincent and Yuffie could easily be scrapped and the game would still work.
I don't think this is true entirely.
While I believe they didn't have the strongest ties to VII's story I do think had they been handled well they would've made the game greater than it already was.

Cait Sith could've been used differently, honestly if I were in charge one of two things would happen to cait sith.
1.Instead of being revealed as Reeve, he could be revealed as rufus, or another insider in Shinra who was given development
2.Just give Reeve more screentime, when it was revealed who he was I just sat there like "what? who is this guy" because he was so forgettable

Yuffie's sidestory is pretty weak but could've served to show how Shinra came into power and screwed over other countries/cities

Vincent despite getting what I believe to be the most development out of the three still has what I thought was the weakest aspect of the story handed to him.
Now if he had been introduced earlier while you're escaping from midgar, then I could see there being a setup for him coming back to kill Hojo.

[Anonymous No.3718283]

>>3718238
Strago and Relm represent the dirtiness of magic, they're a key part of the story.

Gau's story basically is what shows you the Veldt, which I seem to remember having the one town that was actually totally destroyed, it embodies the WoB to WoR change like nothing else. So it's also completely intertwined with Cyan's story.

[Anonymous No.3718285]

>>3718228
> it's still not a seriously destroyed world like in Chrono Trigger or Terminator Future Shock, Fallout, Forsaken or either of the Dark Sun games.

This is kind of my point tho. It's not that the world is *as* destroyed as Fallout, it's that you see the world before and (well, the first time you play) you also get to see it *after.* And it can't be fixed, it *is* like that. It's steampunk and post-apoc, two parts of the same coin. Lots of fantasy worlds of course involve a big danger, but you usually prevent it; and post-apoc stuff starts with a disaster and you go from there. FF6 does both, and somehow, it works. If it were only a fantasy or only a post-apoc story it wouldn't be as good. It's why the second part is so interesting: it is the same world, but completely changed. You get to find those characters again, and you don't even know if they're there or not (I mean, you do, but you get what I mean).

And when you do find Kefka, he doesn't apologize. There isn't a magical world-rescuing device after that can reset the clock. Magic blew up the world. That's heavy stuff for a game!

>And in Fire Fight, you get to BE the one to destroy worlds
Didn't play that one, but sounds good. Sometimes you want to be Kefka too. I think that's maybe my problem with brooding emo heroes. Maybe one of these days we'll get a game that lets us do that...in Warcraft 3 you kind of did, you got to play Arthas, burn the ships, become a death knight and so on. That was clever. But there the real evil was Archimonde, so they kind of let you still feel you're fighting a greater evil, etc.

>>3718238
Sure. I mean, not everyone can be the hero. Sometimes *nobody* is the hero - which is basically FF6. Not even Terra, really. But I guess what I mean is that what we are calling "throwaway" characters really add life to the overall game. They're secondary, but without them the game would just feel...I don't know, less rich. It feels like there's a *team* and not just a *party.*

[Anonymous No.3718313]

>>3718238
>Same with Umaro, Relm, Gau, Shadow, Strago, Gogo and etcetera - they have their small stories ingame, but they're irrelevant to the larger picture of the game, unlike people like Edgar and Celes for example. So yeah, the game still has throwaway characters, even if we like them

This really is part of the magic of the storytelling in FF6 for me, this sense of there really being no heroes. When we say that character X is irrelevant to the larger picture, I think that the point of FF6, which is very subtle, is that the larger picture has no real heroes or villains. To Kefka, the entire world is irrelevant. He doesn't care about anyone or anything, because that world *has no centre* and *has no meaning.* The Empire is there, conquering it with magitech - but if *that alone* is the meaning of that world, the power of the Espers and so on, then Kefka goes where he goes because he says, okay, fuck it, there really *isn't* anything to prevent me from just blowing it all up for laughs. And he's right.

Kefka isn't betrayed or anything. The Empire makes him who he is, or maybe just puts rocket boosters on the crazy he always had. We don't know for certain, and we don't need to know. He speaks the unbearable truth, in the same way that the Joker did (or, if you like, Nietzsche).

Because the whole of that world is technology, magic, and power. It has no meaning or purpose, and Gestahl belongs to the old world of rules and reasons and so on. Kefka knows those rules are just so many words. He can't be reasoned with, but he is a product of that world in the same way the characters are. I could go on and on about this, but you get the idea. In a horrible way, he is the hero of that world. Everyone else is just a survivor. He is 100% why Heidegger had nightmares about Nietzsche. That's /lit/ talk perhaps, but still.

>>3718283
>Strago and Relm represent the dirtiness of magic, they're a key part of the story
That's interesting. Can you explain what you mean by this?

[Anonymous No.3718317]

>>3717975
I don't think I can call that best storyline in the history of games, but I'm pretty sure I can call that the best environment in FF.

The games afterwards tried, but none of their worlds quite captured me the same way. Sure, VIII's was weird and interesting, but it was mostly sci-fi. VI managed to somehow mix a whole bunch of settings into one: steampunk, apocalyptic, dare I say even a tiny unnoticeable bit of Shadowrun?

I don't really remember a game outside of FF references where VI's ideas in this department really happened again, I remember books but not games. If VI didn't happen and something else used this setting today everyone would go wild about it.

[Anonymous No.3718323]

real best story right here

[Anonymous No.3718325]

>>3718252
>Monk
>Not Thief

Well, if you're counting the original buggy one where his run advantage doesn't mean shit anyway.

[Anonymous No.3718336]

>>3717975
it is the best story, but you do a horrible job of explaining why

[Anonymous No.3718349]

>>3718317
I pretty much agree with everything you've said.

>I don't think I can call that best storyline in the history of games, but I'm pretty sure I can call that the best environment in FF

Hm. That's pretty good too. I mean for me, as the above post indicates, FF6 is a pretty awesome presentation of what philosophers I like say about the dangers of unlimited technology (here it's magi-tech, which makes it even more interesting). This is what Heidegger talks about, but it was also a major theme in Tolkien.

In Tolkien, of course, Sauron is a straight-up Dark Lord and in the end Mordor gets wrecked but not the world. In FF6 Kefka is human and the world really does get blown up. It's not the like the atomic bomb isn't there in the Japanese national consciousness, but none of that stuff is there in this game. There's no blaming. The evil Dark Lord is a dancing buffoon who knows he is a buffoon.

So the environment and the story blend together. Whenever magic is involved they kind of always do: the Espers are Nature. But the real danger isn't an unleashed crazy sea monster or dragon, it's a monster like Kefka. But even he is just the product of the imperial system...and nobody in FF6 is railing about that, either. There's Banon and the Returners but Banon exits stage left almost as soon as he appears, and he *doesn't* come back in part 2. General Leo gets killed too. These are to me subtle but important touches that tell you how much the developers thought about the game (or just how much they were on to without realizing it...maybe both).

>dare I say even a tiny unnoticeable bit of Shadowrun?
Fuck yes my man, good call. Zozo? I so wished there had been more to do there. Zozo was awesome! Dadaluma could definitely have been a recruitable party member, maybe. There should have been a recruitable Zozo-ite for the team. I loved that Terra winds up being discovered there in that cool loft.

[Anonymous No.3718360]

>>3718336
Wrong! Best story is Planescape Torment. I was on the team that made it and it is best game ever.

[Anonymous No.3718362]

>>3718336
Yes!

I tried to give an indication of why I think FF6 is a big deal in this post (>>3718313). Namely, because in a thematic sense it's about the dangers of unlimited technology and power. Not in a preachy or banal way. My original post didn't really communicate this, but in a philosophical sense there's a lot going on. I was probably just being too provocative but you can't always just jump right in and start talking about Heidegger or whatever. That's /lit/ talk. Figured I'd just be a douche and open with What's Up Guys, etc.

But since we are in agreement, maybe you could explain why FF6 really is such a good story. I'd be glad to hear it...

[Anonymous No.3718363]

>>3717975
The biggest issue I had with VI were the characters. Once I got to the World in Ruins part or whatever, I just stopped playing. The whole plot at that point was to find your friends, but since I didn't care about any of them, plus I didn't find Kefka an interesting villain to beat, I didn't see any point in continuing. I wanted to like Terra, but half the time she didn't feel like a character at all, just a blank slate character I would expect from a mute protag.

[Anonymous No.3718375]

>>3718360
A wild masterpiece appears!

I'm still going to stay with FF6, but I have no desire at all to shit on PS:T (especially if you were on the team, and hats off to you for that, that's amazing). And if I wasn't going to be intractably weebish about this your game would be my pick also.

>What can change the nature of a man?
>sorry i blacked out there senpai i was in the brothel of slaking intellectual lusts for six thousand years, idgaf check me later

Third pick goes to...hmm. I actually have to think about this one.

[Anonymous No.3718386]

>>3717975
>heroine is daughter of two race traitors
>transsexual clown destroys the world but goes easy on the people who are trying to kill him
>the reason is because he's crazy and hates everything just like every villain ever
>airship encounters strong air turbulence and crash lands into a mountain, killing everyone onboard
>best ending ever

[Anonymous No.3718395]

>>3718363
Terra grows on me, partly because she's such a perfectly Amano character. But partly also because what you said, that she is this blank slate.

She's the closest the game has to being a hero, but she's basically mute and alienated from almost everything. She's just kind of there in this world. Locke is obviously a much more conventional pick for a main character, being the dynamic treasure hunter and all, and that's why I think he has this particular relationship with Terra, with them meeting at the start (although it's not a romantic relationship).

I guess I can't imagine anybody else being the emotional lead through the first part of the story, since she's sort of dinged-up from magitech. She winds up being a kind of chosen one figure with the esper heritage, but it doesn't really play a major role in the plot: no big revenge, no Queen of the Espers, no harmonious marriage between espers and humans, no using esper power to heal the world scarred by technology, none of that.

It's the number of things that the writers *didn't* do, more than the things they did, that impress me about how the story is told. They had all kinds of opportunities to wrap things up with a neat and tidy bow, or serve up some ideology, and they turned them all down. With the result being that it feels way more mature than just about anything else I have ever read/seen/played.

[Anonymous No.3718423]

>>3718386
Too good. I legit kek'd. Just for fun tho:

>heroine is daughter of two race traitors
How redpilled is /vr/? /pol/ on suicide watch

>transsexual clown destroys the world but goes easy on the people who are trying to kill him
I figure he was bored. There's only so many times you can smash faces with the Light of Judgment and be worshiped by obviously ridiculous cults of your own creation before it gets stale. He blew up the world and was worshiped as a god in a post-apoc hellscape. The man achieved everything he wanted to in life. He was ready to go.

>the reason is because he's a crazy brilliant ubermensch psychopath and has intuited that the meaning of that world is nothing but power, which would be correct
ftfy

>airship encounters strong air turbulence and crash lands into a mountain, killing everyone onboard
Daryl? Don't see the problem here. I just thought it was part of her character, that she liked to be risky and go fast. Made sense, given her relationship with Setzer.

>best ending ever
you better believe it

[Anonymous No.3718428]

>>3718423
Look how many threads have the N word in it. Of course /vr/ is red pilled.

[Anonymous No.3718439]

>>3718428
fair point. on that note, what are the most redpilled /vr/ games? the usual picks on /v/ are EU3/Vicky/HoI, basically all of the Paradox map-painters. Also Total War series and Mount & Blade. But that's not /vr/. What's redpilled for /vr/? pic related maybe?

[Anonymous No.3718469]

>>3718439
I cant name any that are clearly red pilled... but at least in Mario 2 you can kill trannies. Mario is still a cuck though.

[Anonymous No.3718483]

>>3718168
He's a God in the magic tower.

[Anonymous No.3718486]

>>3718313

I would almost feel weird about namedropping Heidegger to talk about FF6...if there wasn't actually a character named Heidegger in FF7. There's not much correspondence between the real-life guy and the character, and the writers of FF6 are different from FF7. It was just one of those things I always thought was interesting, since FF6 is basically all about the dangers of technology, alienation, Kafka/Nietzsche (again, only in the most superficial sense, but that is also the really dangerous sense), and so on.

As the FF series goes on, they keep skewing further away from fantasy and more towards technology. It's pretty interesting (and DQ keeps doing the same thing over and over, which is also why they have done so well). I haven't played the newest game yet but it seems to basically be about one-percenters finding themselves. There are cars and modern suits and all this.

I think tho that FF6 will always remain the peak because if they are going to increasingly be talking about technology, the story of FF6 is essentially *the* story of technology, which, in this broader literary sense, is really pretty much the story of today also. But I'm kind of intrigued by FF stories being about the one percent also. It's the least 'fantasy' thing I can think of, but...well, we've come a long way since Tolkien and things have changed.

[Anonymous No.3718487]

>>3718313
>Can you explain what you mean by this?
The only magic-talented humans remaining scurried off to that disconnected corner. So, obviously, magic to them was something to hide. And even there, they apparently had a taboo on it.

Oh, and as a bonus, the quest that you had in that town was about a stash of wands, errr, rods, supercharging a nasty accident.

[Anonymous No.3718512]

>>3718483
I am so doing this on my next playthrough. I don't think I've ever brought him in there before. But it just makes too much sense. The cure for demented wasteland cults is always, always, yetis. In FF6 or anywhere else really. That is the proper way to restore order to the wasteland when those maniac priests get out of hand: a good snowstorm.

Plus Umaro admires bone carvings. There's clearly a decorative skull there in his cave. I love that this game gives you a yeti with a sense of aesthetics. That is just too good.

>>3718487
Ah, right, that's right. So it's not like magic is so wholesome and awesome compared to Sinister Technology. Again, it would have been easy to spin it that way, but...nope. Not so much. This isn't Ferngully (or Avatar). There's just as much fuckery involved in magic too.

The house with the creepy paintings and the light switch was also very weird. There was just so much going on in this game. I basically never use Relm (or Strago), but that was a neat touch. And a little sniff of class division in Jidoor...

>>3718469
I feel like maybe you could make a case for Syndicate, but it would be kind of a stretch. Being redpilled in the 90s wouldn't be the same as today. I'm going to try and think of some, tho. They must be there.

[Anonymous No.3718516]

>>3718512
I think for 80s 90s games you can find bits and pieces of games that are red pilled or maybe a subplot but not an entire plot.

[Anonymous No.3718554]

>>3718512
>The house with the creepy paintings and the light switch was also very weird.
Oh yeah! And Strago's WoR non-quest also had such a theme.

[Anonymous No.3718565]

>>3718083
Narshe is cozy defined.
Only competition would be Icicle Inn from FF7.

[Anonymous No.3718583]

>>3718516
Me too. In the 90s it wouldn't have been such a hot look to be hardcore into white Christian nationalism. I'm sure there were developers like that but it didn't translate into the games.

I mean, the original Warcraft and Warcraft II let you play out a pretty redpilled fantasy, if you wanted to. It was only with W3 and so on, once they introduced all the different races/factions that that changed. And now everybody plays WoW (or at least they used to). Same with the original Starcraft maybe. Once Kerrigan became the QoB and the setting became an insanely lucrative IP things had to change. But original mode WC2 was just straight up tradcore carnage. Interesting to think about. Of course, you could play the orcs too.

Duke Nukem 3D was I guess a satire of redpilled stuff, but it was released before the red pill became popular. It doesn't count, but it's just a funny to think. Ordinarily Duke would be the most alpha man alive, but of course they make him a comic figure. Moreso in the new remake than in 3D, but it's not redpilled in the way we would think of it today.

Age of Empires 2 for sure.

>>3718554
Stuff like that is why I can't really get mad at the WoR. They let you go off-script and kind of do things at your own pace and explore the world. It worked, too, because the characters had sort of individual stories to be hold that there's no room for in the WoB, because you are hurrying the main plot along. There's some crazy literary stuff going on in that game. It doesn't translate well in some ways, because the second part of the game does feel more loose than the first part, and the last battle is anticlimactic. But this is I think necessarily the case. The most exciting battle/event in the game isn't even one you have any control over, and nobody expects it coming...

How the fuck they made FF4: The After Years and no even mediocre sequel to FF6 is beyond me. I mean, I'm glad they didn't, in a sense, because FF^ is perfect as it is. But still tho.

[Anonymous No.3718591]

>>3718017
>Kefka is as close to Friedrich fucking Nietzsche in a game as you could ask for
have you even read nietzsche?

god this thread comes across like the rantings of a high school sophomore

[Anonymous No.3718592]

>>3718583
How would they even continue FF6? There's a few stories they could tie up like Shadow, Ultros, and maybe a few others... who would even be the final boss? Some remnant faction of the Cult of Kefka? The Empire? Im sure theyve put thought into it, but it would probably end up a waste.

[Anonymous No.3718594]

Wait, so now people HATE Final Fantasy 6?
Is that the cool thing to do now?

[Anonymous No.3718601]

>>3718565
Competition would include Kuldahar from IWD, and maybe Easthaven, or North Country from Need for Speed 2.

[Anonymous No.3718609]

>>3718591
>have you even read nietzsche?

Up and down. I can be more explicit tho. And honestly, you're right to ask this question. Let me explain what I mean.

The scary thing about Kefka is that he wins. Why? There is no why. He just does what he does. The two guys I would go to explain FF6, which is my favourite game, are also my two favourite philosophers: the Neetch and Heidegger.

For Heidegger Nietzsche completes metaphysics as the will to power and the rest is technology. Nobody is ever going to knock Nietzsche off his perch, because he gets it, he got there first: life itself is will to power. And for Heidegger that means technology. This is what is also so interesting about Kefka: it's the same thing. He doesn't need reasons to destroy anything. He does it because he wishes to and he can. That's not solely his fault; it also has to do with the tech-driven Empire to which he belongs and which created him. And which he destroys. Along with the rest of the world.

Now I know that Nietzsche is massively more complicated than this. I have read the ever-loving shit out of Nietzsche (and I will continue to do so). But FF6 is a story about technology and its uncontrollable nature, which is made even worse when you hand it over to unhinged modern subjects with nothing else to do except follow their own impulses. This is why the game is so brilliant. It's almost a perfect introduction to late 19C/early 20C philosophy. You don't need to know about that to enjoy the game. But Kefka doesn't get beaten in the way we are used to seeing villains get beaten and yet this is not unsatisfying to us. Why? Because there is a deep correspondence, I would say, with the themes of this game and much bigger stuff we encounter also in real life.

So I'm not really saying Kefka *is* Nietzsche. What I should have said was this: that what Kefka stands for is something both Nietzsche and Heidegger also understood to be dangerous. And it is why I find this game so interesting.

[Anonymous No.3718631]

>>3718592
It's more fun to think about than a serious question. I'm pretty sure a game like that would fail and fail hard, but I'd probably still pick it up. It would indeed be a terrible idea. But of the many worlds that FF has spawned that particular one seemed to strongly indicate that it did have a little more meat left on the bone.

For me personally, and basically off the top of my head, I might go with a reformed Empire and having the characters work as paranormal investigators/envoys. Or better yet working for (another) Cid in the Magitek facility. There there is opportunity for more new Magitek knights and other stuff, which was mainly unexplored...we knew Celes, Leo, and Kefka were all Magitek knights and this was based on Esper hybridization and whatever. So you could maybe build or upgrade a facility, learn stuff, and inevitably produce doomsday weapons, be raided by mysterious esper terrorists, maybe the Returners - that would be okay. Imagine if you have to destroy the Chosen One this time, the heroic resistance organization...

Focusing on the M-Tek facility means you get to listen to this sexy jam again, too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq_Qf3mVnCo

I mean it's obviously unnecessary, but if for some reason I had a gun to my head and had to come up with an idea for a spinoff I would say the Magitek Facility would be the way to go. But there are lots of others. And Zozo would figure prominently in it too, way more. You would spend a good chunk of time in Zozo mos def.

But there are a lot of different options with that world. Like a still sexier version: Magitek *Nights.* Oh yeah.

>>3718594
I don't get it either.

>>3718601
Fuck yes, Kuldahar. Sigil is way up there for me too. The Whale from FF2, although it's not a town. Maybe one of those nice clean utopias (dystopias?) in Phantasy Star 2. Zenithia in DQ3, but it would need some more fun stuff in it, And definitely Manarina in Shining Force. There are so many others tho,,.

[Anonymous No.3718637]

>>3718592

Just to continue that thought, a zombie Banon back to tell you that you have abandoned the Returners and all they stood for... that might work. They are Returning to save the Empire from itself and all that. You fools, have you learned nothing, etc...something like that. Banon could have been a pretty scary dude I think, if he was returned from the dead at the head of what could now be a terrorist group with nothing to lose, harnessing the power of Doom Gaze or something against you.

Just riffing.

[Anonymous No.3718669]

>>3718249
>deconstructive

Do you even know what it means? protip: it's not what you think it does.

[Anonymous No.3718678]

>>3718313
>or, if you like, Nietzsche

How exactly is he related to this game? If you actually knew a little about philosophy you would know that his work could be divided in three periods, all with their own characteristics. Or what, you only know him as the "philosopher with the hammer"?

Oh wait, I forgot I'm on an anonymous imageboards where every moron could write random bullshit. Who cares trying to make sense in a discussion here, right?

[Anonymous No.3718686]

>>3718631
That would be clever, and have Kefka to be the end boss since he is dead he's on the other side. But with God like abilities could tear a rift through the Doom Train and there we have it, FF6: The After Years.

[Anonymous No.3718690]

>>3718349
>Hm. That's pretty good too. I mean for me, as the above post indicates, FF6 is a pretty awesome presentation of what philosophers I like say about the dangers of unlimited technology (here it's magi-tech, which makes it even more interesting). This is what Heidegger talks about, but it was also a major theme in Tolkien.

Are you sure you're talking about Heidegger and not Marx? AFAIK, Heidegger was a huge influence to Marx, who would later state the consequences of the industrial revolution and how that changed mankind but Heidegger himself never wrote anything about technology and how that would influence the world. He only stated mankind would evolve in stages through a lineair timeline instead of a cyclical one (which is also a popular philosophical theory).

Your statement about Tolkien is kind of right. To be more specific, it's the two world wars and how technology damaged humanity and ecology even more that made him sceptical about it. At least that's what he wrote in one of his later editions of LOTR.

[Anonymous No.3718701]

>>3718669
Ok. Maybe I should have said surreal? Unconventional? It does things that you do not expect, plays with and subverts your expectations in meta/postmodern ways. Sounds pretty deconstructionist to me, but if you're an expert on this I won't argue with you.

I mean it would be wrong to say that it "subverts" standard-fare JRPG tropes. It doesn't, not really. It has no political or higher literary aims like that. It's still a game. But things like getting money from your dad, or ending combats with low-level foes instantly, or how a game which is so on the surface innocent and childlike, then gives you an absolutely nightmarish final boss...it's playing with the conventions of the JRPG in thought-provoking ways. I don't think the developers intended to raise awareness of, I don't know, police brutality. The ways that the story is told *does* take a different slant on stuff. But I certainly wouldn't want to have to write a paper on it (FF6, no problem).

>do you know what deconstructive means? protip: it's not what you think it does
I honestly can't tell if you're making a joke here or not. I mean, in a sense, the whole idea of difference is that deconstruction will *never* mean what I think it means...no? So the more I try to explain what I mean, the less sense I make...

>and that is why I find deconstruction so tedious

Earthbound *is* a cool game, no doubt. We don't have to disappear into Jacques Derrida's colon to know why that is. Or am I missing something?

[Anonymous No.3718712]

>>3717975
>>no real hero
yeah nobody has any personality in this game the fuck were they thinking of having the entire case be 1-dimensional
>>doomsday clown BBG destroys the world
yeah this was pretty retarded, kefka was so inconsistent it's hard to even justify his purpose. The story practically makes a joke character the main antagonist because ???. Absolutely stupid.
>>you can kill him, but you can't stop him
you can't always stop a retard from chugging the bleach but hey if its what the creators wanted...wait why did they even want it? It's just stupid.

ff6 may be one of the weakest installments in the franchise. 7 is far better, but final fantasy is largely entry level stuff.

[Anonymous No.3718714]

>>3718701
tropes don't exist. What you're thinking of is cliches, and even then, that's an absolute bastardization of the creative drive of humanity over-categorized by banal autists.

[Anonymous No.3718728]

>>3718678
First of all, relax.

Kefka's destruction of this world has always been something I've come back to think about. Why does he do it? How? And why did the developers end the game in this way? Moreover, how did they manage to make this feel, fantasy aside, like such a believable story?

Kefka is the key figure. He doesn't need reasons for doing what he does: ultimately, his desires are aesthetic, full stop. He has a vision for the world, and nothing is going to stand in the way of that. It's pure aesthetics for him. He needs no other reason than that. He is just a step ahead - probably more than one - of everyone else in that world. Including the Emperor. Kefka just does what he does because he thinks that's okay.

Now I'll grant you, that *would be* a very reductionist view of Nietzsche. I suspect the reason why you have taken this tone is because you like Nietzsche and you don't like my comparing him to a clown antagonist in a video game. That's fine. It's not really what I'm doing, though. I'm saying that Kefka *as a character* really makes the most sense when he is looked at through the eyes of Nietzsche, to whom he bears a resemblance. Not a 1:1 one. But it's there.

Moreover, I am also reading this through Heidegger, because to me Kefka is the incarnation of what Heidegger believed Nietzsche had produced: the end of metaphysics, and the beginning of a horrible period of just seeing the whole world as standing reserve. Nietzsche could have diagnosed Kefka (and properly) as a cynic and misinterpreter of his own thought - but what I am saying is that Kefka would not have cared. He would have laughed his demented laugh and gone on smiting people with the Light.

This is not a knock on Nietzsche. I like him too. And my favourite villain in my favourite game cannot be explained any other way but with reference to Nietzsche's thought.

[Anonymous No.3718732]

>>3717975
>Squaresoft rips off Batman's Joker
>this guy calls genius and brings Nietzsche on the table

[Anonymous No.3718746]

>>3718686
Yeah, could be. Banon, tho! Let's not sleep on Banon! FF6: Returners sounds like a cool title.

>>3718690
>Heidegger himself never wrote anything about technology and how that would influence the world
I mean, there *is* pic related. Technology is huge in Heidegger's thought. It's in B&T also, that the technological mode of understanding goes through Descartes and all the way back to the Greeks. I'm not a Marxist myself, and I know Marxists interpret these things differently. But to me FF6 makes the most sense through Nietzsche & Heidegger. It's not the only way, of course, but it's the interpretation I take.

The reason why I am so huge on FF6 is because it's one of the very few fantasy stories I can think of that actually deal with technology in ways that aren't basically Tolkien-derived or that don't reach the same conclusions he did. In LotR Mordor gets destroyed and the good guys win. FF6 is substantially darker and not quite as Catholic. I have no issue with Catholics but it's just that Tolkien's mythology is so freaking expansive and so much fantasy is derived from his work that FF6 strikes me as unique. I also find Kefka to be massively more interesting than the Dark Lord Sauron - mostly because Nietzsche is still so much on my mind. Kefka is more believable to me than Sauron. But not only because he's just evil (and certainly not because that's what I think Nietzsche would have done). It's much more complex than that. He's a product of his environment, a technological will-to-power world that he represents the worst aspects of.

Heidegger is there because FF6 is also a steampunk world, but because he connects to Nietzsche and so on as well. And Tolkien is no joke either. But in the world today I think there is no escape from technology, not really...and that has its dangers. In LotR there is Sauron and the Orcs. In FF6 it's the Empire and Kefka. And for now at least I find the second one interesting to think about.

[Anonymous No.3718753]

>>3718732
Kefka is based off of medieval court Jesters as per Amano.
Don't let Woosley's edgy translation override what the original creators intent was.

[Anonymous No.3718756]

>>3718753
With the makings of the Dissidia games, they embraced Woosleys translations because of the widely approved reception of him being like that.

>>3718746
Kefkas craziness came from his failed experiment he went through like Celes.

[Anonymous No.3718758]

I lost all interest in FF VI after the delinquent town to be honest.

It felt like I was playing a game made with rpgmaker by some nerd, not a Squaresoft masterpiece.
Terrific music though.

[Anonymous No.3718759]

>>3718756
Only good thing Woosley brought to the table was Ultros.
Never played Dissidia so whatever.

[Anonymous No.3718763]

>>3718758
Zozo? Yeah that place wasn't fun at all. It gets better afterwards.

[Anonymous No.3718768]

>>3718759
Just youtube Kefkas lines on Dissidia, Square embraced his western popularity. Kefka was pretty bland in Japan and wasnt really as memorable.

[Anonymous No.3718770]

>>3718712
>yeah nobody has any personality in this game the fuck were they thinking of having the entire case be 1-dimensional
What? That's obviously not what I'm saying at all. Kefka has personality and then some to spare, which is what I've been saying throughout this thread. I've also made several posts talking about how exactly un-throwaway the characters are.

>kefka was so inconsistent it's hard to even justify his purpose. The story practically makes a joke character the main antagonist because ???
But he's not tho. That's what I've been saying. He's not stupid at all. He's perfect, and the story absolutely requires him to be who he is.

>you can't always stop a retard from chugging the bleach but hey if its what the creators wanted...wait why did they even want it? It's just stupid.
The creators wanted it this way because they had an amazing story to tell.

>ff6 may be one of the weakest installments in the franchise
You're just talking reckless now.

>>3718714
tropes don't exist. What you're thinking of is cliches, and even then, that's an absolute bastardization of the creative drive of humanity over-categorized by banal autists.

...okay? I guess? Tropes *do* exist...they're just literary devices. Cliches are literary devices that are cheesy, banal, clumsy, whatever. Cliches are bad use of tropes. For what it's worth, Earthbound has probably fewer cliches than most other games, because the developers were clearly very smart and sensitive guys who made a masterpiece of a game there.

>>3718732
I have no problem comparing Kefka to the Joker, or using Nietzsche to understand how they think. Batman and the Joker are iconic characters. Kefka is a brilliant character, and he's the central antagonist of a brilliant game. Sure, I don't have to namedrop Nietzsche...but I can and I think it makes sense. It's why I think the game is a masterpiece of videogame storytelling.

[Anonymous No.3718771]

>>3718768
I don't know, his character seemed pretty insane to me.

[Anonymous No.3718772]

>>3718756
>Kefkas craziness came from his failed experiment he went through like Celes.
Yes, I forgot to indicate this in that post. And it is a good point to bring up, that his madness is not all self-willed. Sorry, it's getting late over here.

I think I have to pack it in for the night gents, but thanks to all for a very fun conversation. Until next time.

[Anonymous No.3718774]

>>3718753
This is a good point, I didn't know that.

[Anonymous No.3718775]

/vr/ only pretended to like FF VI because they hated the 3d FFVII fags from /v/

In fact, if you read between the lines, /vr/ has always said that the Final Fantasy franchise was mediocre among jrpgs at any give occasion.

[Anonymous No.3718781]

>>3718609
>>3718728
>>3718746
This is all a gross misunderstanding of Niezsche. A central tenet of Nietzschean thought is a rejection of Schopenhauer and his alleged nihilism vis-à-vis 'abolition of the self' ('self' even applied to the entirety of human civilization, vis-à-vis Schopenhauer's support of anti-natalism).

Nietzsche developed the 'will to power' as a response or 'counter' to nihilism. Therefore, using the will to power for nihilistic ends (what you imply of Kefka) is not consonant with Nietzschean thought.

Nietzsche linked aesthetics to the will to pose as the ultimate life-affirming expression. He would not have considered any beauty in destruction for nihilistic ends. Destruction can be 'beautiful', but only for the purposes of replacing degenerate nihilism with a beautiful life-affirming optimism.

Kefka simply wanted to destroy everything. This is exactly the kind of degeneracy that Niezsche was opposed to. Arguably it its the heroes of the story (Terra and co) that are on Niezsche's side.

>Kefka: And have you found your "joy" in this nearly dead world of ours?
>Terra: I know what love is...!
>Locke: And I have learned to celebrate life... and the living.
>Cyan: My family lives on inside of me.
>Shadow: I know what friendship is... and family...
>Edgar: It is my dream to build a kingdom in which I can guarantee freedom and dignity.
>Sabin: I have come to experience anew the love of my brother...
>Celes: I've met someone who can accept me for what I am.
>Strago: I have a special little Granddaughter!
>Setzer: My friend's airship... and her love!
>Mog: I have my friends here!

So who exactly is the the life affirming will to power party here? The degenerate nihilist who dresses like a clown and wants to destroy everything, or the group of stable individuals who want to thrust nihilism into the void and who were able to find their own meaning in life without metaphysical discourses?

[Anonymous No.3718819]

OP youre right but for the wrong reasons

>nazi empire using demonic energy creatures to create genetically modified supersoldiers
>rebel factions pop up in all areas of the world to fight back against their conquest
>prolonged conflict that goes on across different countries and continents, super soldier techno nazis against rag tag rebel fighers using any means necessary
>shit gets real when the resistance gets a hybrid to join their side
>resistance actually has a chance to win against them
>then one crazy motherfucker steals the power of the gods and turns the world into fallout
>now you get to watch suicidal despair as you travel through the ruins of all the shit you were trying to save
>see weird ass demons, dragons and phenomena appear
>muster your courage and find the ancient technology and secrets of the past
>suicide mission into the domain of god
>he has made all other gods his bitch minions
>face him on top of an altar made of renaissance art while his own personal oprea plays for you

this is the ff that actually deserves a remake

[Anonymous No.3718820]

>>3718819
>remake
I thought this was /vr/?

what is this rehash /v/ mentality

[Anonymous No.3718835]

>>3717975
too bad the game is a big step down from FF5 though.

[Anonymous No.3718838]

>>3718363
By that argument you shouldn't even started to play the game.

[Anonymous No.3718848]

>>3717975
>best storyline in the history of video
Some people have problems with this "go on your own" way of playing a videogame. The same happens to DQ VI, they will say there are a lot of filling because they cannot connect the need of doing these quest to the main plot.

[Anonymous No.3718931]

>>3718035
> We literally don't have words to describe FFVI yet
The question is: does Square breed autists, or are the autists naturally attracted to square games?

[Anonymous No.3719270]

>>3718819
Brilliant. 100%. And you explained it far more illustratively than I have. That story/setting is too good. One magitek-suit bro-fist for you.

>>3718781
Also brilliant. Your interpretation of that scene at the end is spot-on. I'm not saying that Kefka is the embodiment of Nietzsche himself. Or that Nietzsche would have approved of him. I'm saying that he is an aesthetic/decadent/modernist/nihilist event who the heroes (and the world) struggles with, and who doesn't permit of easy refutation. Much in the way philosophers struggle with Nietzsche. He inaugurates a whole new era, a brave new world. Kefka is a kind of unbearable truth, and I think he knows it.

Because you're right. The only way to "beat" Kefka is to have something worth living for larger than oneself. Kefka lacks this; he is all destruction. And yet he is also all *aesthetics.* So it would be more appropriate to say that he could be called a sort of Nietzschean literalist, the worst thing of all: if life is *only* aesthetically justified, then destruction for it's own sake under the sign of modernity itself is, sadly, a "justification." An empty and hollow one, no doubt. As cynical justifications are. The letter of the law, but not the spirit.

And it's also why the stable individuals you have indicated are the real heroes, by being in this way more than the sum of their individual parts, and even then by being more than a collective also. They are not the Returners Returned. They work together, but *not* as a new ideology, under a new banner...and this really does just blow my all-too-frequently narrow mind. Because while it might be virtually impossible to make this claim in reality, we do I think understand it when it is presented as *art.* Which is to me what FF6 is. And then some.

You've clarified what I find fascinating about this story. All I can say is, thanks. So I guess "the point" of FF6 is one that still eludes my enthusiastic attempts to tie it up in a bow? I'm fine with that.

[Anonymous No.3719294]

>>3718820
We're not seriously asking for a remake. But that anon absolutely crushed it in terms of explaining why this setting is so good. It's not Returners against Empire, Na'vi against RDA, Elves/Orcs, whatever. The game doesn't really *need* a remake, but it wouldn't be anything but a feast given what modern visuals and graphics and so on can do. It's one of the greatest story/settings ever developed.

>>3718835
Talk about it! That's what's going on here...

>>3718848
Yep. I agree. We *want* the plot to tie together, I think. It's what Zizek is always saying about cinema and desire and so on. But branching paths in a *game* allow for something different than, say, the Rashomon effect in movies. That players are free to "go their own ways" is what makes games what they are: they control where the camera goes, in a way. Which is fun. But we still also love stories.

As anons have pointed out, there is a kind of loss of tension in the WoR. But I think it's because the main plot of FF6 requires that mega-event in the middle to tell its own and even larger story about destruction and what comes after. I might even say that it is a story about modernity and postmodernity that resists the temptation to say, well, it's all just interpretation. The developers managed to combine this with a sense of the epic too. And it is to me one of the very few high fantasy stories which can deal with technology without presenting an Evil Dark Lord or a kind of neat and easy division into Good Nature, Bad Tech. But those are things I'm just obsessed with, I suppose.

>>3718931
Kek. It's true. The one that got me was

>they're somewhere, to be sure, stashed away in the brain of some basement-inhabiting uber-dweeb romantic, waiting for the right moment to emerge.

There would be no way for me to deny that basement-inhabiting uber-dweeb romantic pretty much describes me to a T. For what it's worth, the only thing that needs to 'emerge' is me from said basement. But in the meantime...

[Anonymous No.3719331]

>>3718012
ahahahah and you expect me to take you seriously when you post HG101?

[Anonymous No.3719342]

>this whole thread
There's hardly something more ridiculous than the musings of a pretentious pseudo intellectual on a videogame for children.

But as usual, overinterpretation always goes well with actual lack of content, it's easy to slap whatever you want in a fundamentally empty container with some nice stickers on it.
The most amusing part is the subtle admission that the only worth in this game is its "story".

[Anonymous No.3719343]

>>3718512
As much as I hate the term "red-pilled," Alpha Centauri would be the pinnacle of that in the 90s.

[Anonymous No.3719360]

Does anyone else feel like 4 and 6 are dumbed down versions of 3 and 5? The job system in 3 and 5 let you customize your party, but then 4 and 6 forced you to use specific jobs for the whole game except the endgame and postgame.

[Anonymous No.3719363]

>>3718835
Combat is better in FF5 but the story is shit compared to FF6.

[Anonymous No.3719368]

>>3718819
I have to feed this post another (You).

Because look at that. Most of those lines could by themselves fuel bog-standard piece of standard genre-fare stuff. Even spread out over multiple instalments, the way The Hobbit pointlessly was.

But FF6 does *all of them.* In one story. You start with the baroque, you go post-apoc, and then in the end

>suicide mission into the domain of god
>he has made all other gods his bitch minions
>face him on top of an altar made of renaissance art while his own personal oprea plays for you

...you are ultimately fighting with, what, the Renaissance? The end of time? Both? I don't know.

We are talking about Nietzsche and the death of God, but with Kefka you get the rebirth of a postmodern clown-God, complete with Light of Judgment and wasteland cult, but he does nothing except smash faces and laugh. FF gets obsessed with crystals and espers, but the espers in this aren't even the main idea. What *is* the idea? Fucking...civilization. Technology. History. Art. Humanity. All of it.

I sound like a total dweeb but holy shit they were swinging for the fences with this one. To me whatever storytelling is supposed to be and do, FF6 does. How they managed to end it without giving you some meme ideology is just a cherry on the sundae.

>tfw the ideology is there, you're just sperging out too hard right now to see it
>tfw this is probably true
>tfw if that is wrong i don't want to be right

It's also one of the least ironic stories I've ever seen. It's got comic relief, but it's not intrusive or meta for the sake of being meta. Ultros is there, Siegfried, but they don't mess things up. And it's not as brooding and heavy as it might have been (which, like an idiot, is what I absolutely would have done if I were one of the writers...so it's a good thing I wasn't one of the writers). FF6 doesn't cram a Message down your throat. The message, if there is one, is that even after all of this, life goes on.

Well fucking done, anon.

[Anonymous No.3719379]

>>3719342
>There's hardly something more ridiculous than the musings of a pretentious pseudo intellectual on a videogame for children.

After everything I've posted I obviously can't disagree with this. Still tho I don't think I'm being pretentious at all. I'm just saying what I think. Another anons, such as >>3718781 and >>3718819 have said interesting stuff that I agree with, and as I've said, they actually explain things better than I have, maybe even better than I can. I have no problem with that. And I'm not trying to show off how smart I am, either. What would be the point of that?

So I am making no claims to being a hotshot intellectual. I'm here to talk about FF6 and there are some other thoughtful anons who do also. My question for you is: why so salty?

>But as usual, overinterpretation always goes well with actual lack of content, it's easy to slap whatever you want in a fundamentally empty container with some nice stickers on it.
There's a fucking smorgasbord of content in this game. I'm not "slapping whatever I want" onto it, I'm looking at what is there and going, wow. That's fucking amazing. Because it is.

>The most amusing part is the subtle admission that the only worth in this game is its "story."
I have no idea where you're getting this from. I haven't said that anywhere at all. To me the story *is* the best part, but it's not the *only* thing about the game that makes it good. I *have* said that the story is good (and I'm not subtle about it), but I have *not* "admitted" that that that is the *only* good thing about it. You're just making shit up here.

I have no problems being criticized, but if you are going to criticize me it would make more sense to actually criticize me for things I've actually posted rather than things I haven't.

>>3719343
This is interesting, and I think I agree, but I'd definitely like to hear more of what you mean here. SMAC is right up there at the tippity-top of the game pantheon for me as well.

(cont'd)

[Anonymous No.3719387]

>>3719360
I think the interesting thing here is that in 3/5 (and Tactics) it's because the *jobs* come before the *characters.* In FF6, the character's personas are tied to their jobs, to what they can do. Locke's character is a thief, and he steals. Terra is a part-esper, and she transforms. The mimic has no real personality, but he can do any of their special abilities. If these abilities were transferable, the characters would lose that sense of individuality, and that I think is a major part of the storytelling/narrative/thematic stuff in FF6 the developers opted for. And it's why you're right and that the combat mechanics are comparatively simpler.

In those other versions, the job aspect is a part of what makes the games interesting, and especially in Tactics, where you have this mobile war-machine of an army that is fun to customize for the sake of that customization moreso than the plot (which is also completely awesome, btw). Named characters such as Cid or Agrias or whoever are still more personas than jobs, which is why their job classes are unique and interesting.

I'm not saying one is better than the other, of course. Tastes vary. But it is a design element that I find pretty interesting because it impacts these other aspects. FF6 I like for those personas and the narrative stuff, but you're right, the job aspect isn't as well-defined as in the earlier games. I think it was because of this idea of personas/characters that the developers were dealing with.

Anyways. It's just interesting to think about. Tactics is another 10/10 because of this stuff. It had a no joke plot either *and* the awesome mechanics. I wouldn't have a problem with people saying it was the best FF game. It's not my fave b/c I'm a story wonk, but whatever.

[Anonymous No.3719396]

>>3717975
FF6 is for cucks, 7 was far better and a masterpiece.

[Anonymous No.3719403]

>>3719396
You crazy bastard FF7 contains actual cucking and niggers

[Anonymous No.3719408]

>>3719379
>My question for you is: why so salty?
Passive aggressive too, figures.
>There's a fucking smorgasbord of content in this game.
There really isn't, the game presents some very simple themes like self identity, dealing with depression and responsibility, but none of those are expanded upon or subject to explicit statements, which is precisely why the game is empty and can be interpreted freely, there are little to no actual personal ideas behind it, the game only presents you a set of rather bland narrative archetypes for its main cast and mostly leaves it at that. The content and depth you talk about is largely what you yourself project onto the game due to your personal experience shaping the game, which on one hand is nice if you have no delusion about the actual lack of content, but you're simply praising the game for something that isn't there. You fell for a rather shabby pastiche of half assed symbolism made to look cool and some storyline made to appeal to teenagers and treat it like it's some kind of masterpiece.
>I have no idea where you're getting this from.
There's literally no comment on the actual gameplay, everything you ranted on and on about was buzzwords about "postmodern" standards, which says it all about everything else really, and some really vague and arguable philosophical thoughts related to a character that was vastely altered by a meme translation. You even went as far as saying that you would love to see it as a movie, which is one of the many signs of a failed game. Let's not forget quoting Zizek of all people.

So whatever man, you even got your token Planescape: Torment cameo in the thread, if you want to wank some more feel free to do that, just don't wonder why some people think you look ridiculous when you're evidently pushing your own ideas onto a fundamentally empty game with no actual content behind it and a generic "power of friendship" ending. Play more videogames, read more books.

[Anonymous No.3719409]

>>3719379
I just mean that Alpha Centauri hits on a number of themes of the time, explores them somewhat, but never really becomes a preachy sort of game, rather just illustrates the merits and flaws of various systems though exposition and gameplay.

A lot of the themes of the game were only done in part by others or in a much more shallow manner, or worse, they'd shy away from the more uncomfortable parts of the topic. Sure, syndicate, fallout, and other games of the era touched on various aspects of society and philosophy towards man and the human mind, but not quite as directly as AC.

Also, it had a nice way of taking certain in game developments and painting us a quick picture of its function, both in practical mechanical use and its effect on people and the environment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwqN3Ur-wP0 There's so much detail packed in to that little minute of video compared to something another writer might take an hour or better to set up scenes and characters to convey the same message.

[Anonymous No.3719425]

>>3719408

>Passive aggressive too, figures.
What the fuck? I'm not being passive aggressive. You called me a wank and a pseud and I asked you why. Now you're accusing me of being PA. Seriously? This is passive aggression? Come on.

>The content and depth you talk about is largely what you yourself project onto the game
>You fell for a rather shabby pastiche of half assed symbolism made to look cool and some storyline made to appeal to teenagers and treat it like it's some kind of masterpiece
The word you are looking for here is 'art.' It's called having an aesthetic experience. Talking about it. There's no need to be so edgy.

>There's literally no comment on the actual gameplay, everything you ranted on and on about was buzzwords about "postmodern" standards, which says it all about everything else really, and some really vague and arguable philosophical thoughts related to a character that was vastely altered by a meme translation.
Okay, except I'm not talking about the gameplay. I've noted that the game has flaws. It does. I've even noted that the narrative has flaws (WoR). I just happen to believe that these are necessary parts of blowing up the world in act 2, which is to me a genius-tier bit of storytelling.

>You even went as far as saying that you would love to see it as a movie
This is a crime? It would be a good movie. It's a better game, but w/ev.

>...which is one of the many signs of a failed game
This is silliness. A movie, like a game, tells a story. FF6 is not a failed game, and the movie would be interesting. It doesn't have to have it. I don't *need* to see it as a movie. But if was made as a movie I would watch it. This is a bad thing?

>Let's not forget quoting Zizek of all people.
I like Zizek. Nietzsche and Heidegger also. They talk about art and ideology. FF6 is art and what makes it interesting is that it's *not* dull meme ideology.

(cont'd).
>also, inb4 being this triggered, etc, etc

[Anonymous No.3719445]

>>3719408
>>3719425

>So whatever man, you even got your token Planescape: Torment cameo in the thread
Yes, I did, and...sorry, why is this important?

>if you want to wank some more feel free to do that, just don't wonder why some people think you look ridiculous when you're evidently pushing your own ideas onto a fundamentally empty game with no actual content behind it and a generic "power of friendship" ending
See, this is the thing. I don't *care* if I look ridiculous. When I see posts that criticize me - for instance, as that one above about Nietzsche did - I don't take it personally. I'm interested in this stuff, and I do like the philosophical/literary aspects, but I'm ultimately looking for a cool conversation. It's why I said, I don't mind being criticized *if it's for things I actually say.* I don't get triggered by being called a pseud. I know I'm a pseud. So what? It doesn't change anything. Cool & interesting stuff remains cool & interesting.

The point is I'm not *really* pushing anything. Not really. If people want to disagree, that's fine. I didn't intend this thread to be about my opinions being confirmed. It's the conversation I like. Personally I think FF6 is the best, but if you have a different opinion just calling me a wank and a pseud doesn't convince me unless you also have something interesting to say about the game, the medium, other games, stuff in general, whatever.

But that's not what you're doing. So I'm honestly not mad or triggered or whatever. I'm just saying how I feel about stuff. It doesn't matter who gets the final word. What matters is...well, it's pretty complicated, is I guess all I want to say.

>Play more videogames, read more books.
Well, at least there's something we agree on.

Now having said all that...can I ask you a question? What games/stories do you like? I'm honestly not saying this to bait you or shit on you afterwards. I'm just genuinely curious now. Since I've talked so much about stuff I like...

[Anonymous No.3719479]

>>3719409
I feel the same way too. There's a fuckload of interesting ideas going on with SMAC. The tech-quotes, the secret project videos...even the way the buildings themselves come with quotes and voice-acting. Plus the blind research tree, which is brilliant. Civ games are way overdetermined by knowing what techs are coming, but in SMAC they just let you give the direction to the researchers and wait to see what they come up with, which is way better.

>A lot of the themes of the game were only done in part by others or in a much more shallow manner, or worse, they'd shy away from the more uncomfortable parts of the topic. Sure, syndicate, fallout, and other games of the era touched on various aspects of society and philosophy towards man and the human mind, but not quite as directly as AC.
Totally. The real horrors of the punishment spheres or the nerve staples are there, but they're only implied (which makes them even more memorable). And the game doesn't become a commentary on man's inhumanity to man or whatever. All of the ideologies are capable of doing brutal things Because Reasons. Any one of them can win the struggle for Planet, but the game doesn't get preachy with you, as you said. Things play out as they play out.

If there was a hero he died on impact, and this of course sets everything in motion. The Unity doesn't get put together again. Not in the way it used to be.

It's the combination of imagination and sympathy for the different ideologies that does it for me. Maybe the closest thing the game has to a villain would be Yang, but of course when you play him he's not a villain at all. He's a fucking neo-Confucian/Taoist artist of state himself. But I have to be careful about namedropping Nietzsche and villainy now, so I shouldn't go any further in that direction!

Like FF6 there is this simultaneous post-apoc/new world stuff going on. Whether people repeat the mistakes of the past? Who knows. Good developers don't give you easy answers.

[Anonymous No.3719496]

>>3719425
>The word you are looking for here is 'art.'
Spare me this schlock. It's already enough to see you glorify something so empty and basic as FFVI, I don't need someone who spouts random buzzwords to explain me what is art, art is largely what you make of it.
>Okay, except I'm not talking about the gameplay.
Which was my point, If you don't talk about gameplay means the game has fundamentally failed at being such.
>I've even noted that the narrative has flaws (WoR)
WoR is arguably the biggest narrative gamble of the game, which is why many people drop it at that part, since they could not empathize with the characters enough to care about them, and if the gameplay didn't catch you either the game completely falls apart in WoR, due to the lack of linearity and a main plot. If anything it's brilliant because it plays almost entirely on what it tries to build before that.
>A movie, like a game, tells a story.
Saying this only reinforces the idea that you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to games.
>See, this is the thing. I don't *care* if I look ridiculous
I noticed. I'm more worried about your complete lack of awareness about what that entails.
>What games/stories do you like?
I honestly don't care about stories, orthodox narrative in videogames was largely used as a tool made to contextualize a framework of rulesets and metaphorical representations, as such stories should be merely incidental as far as I'm concerned. Game stories are largely uninspired and ill conceived for the media itself as most of the times a story is told through walls of text or cutscenes instead of making you play it.

Gameplay is ultimately the narrative tool that sets games apart from other media, the more you stray away from this rule the more your game loses its nature.
Talking about RPGs, I like Shadow Tower/KF, SaGa, Daggerfall, Metal Max, games with non intrusive, hamfisted stories in general are fine by me, though I don't mind the occasional Vagrant Story.

[Anonymous No.3719530]

>>3717975
It's not even the best story in the FF series.

>implying VI's convoluted nonsense and melodramatic bullshit wasn't a herald of the series' downfall
>implying IV's story and characters weren't better in every way

[Anonymous No.3719534]

>>3719496

I'm glad you returned, because there actually was one more thing I wanted to say. It was this: *why try to have conversations about this stuff?* We can get into the rest of your points in a minute. First this tho.

The reason I look for good conversations - here, maybe anywhere - is because *exchanges are the only things that prevent me from repeating myself.* The worst thing for me is to become a meme, and just say the same things over and over like a boring idiot. It's why I don't care about ad hominem stuff without criticism about the subject matter. I like what I like, but I don't always know why. And in a certain sense, that's why I try to do by thinking out loud about this stuff, to see if anyone else agrees. When they disagree, that's okay. When they disagree in ways that make me go, holy shit, they're really right about that, that's better. Because that's how I think opinions can change. Without some kind of challenge - but not just a kind of standard Fuck You challenge, an exchange - we become boring means destined for endless self-repetition.

So I wanted to say that part, first. I'm okay with going back and forth, you saying I'm spouting buzzwords, having a complete lack of awareness, fundamental failures, I don't know what I'm talking about, all this. I can infinitely defend my own opinions, just as you can yours. The only thing I'm really interested in is the larger picture, which isn't really my responsibility or yours. Maybe in the exchange we wind up learning something about that, maybe we don't. Of course you're free to call me a pseud for that too, that doesn't bother me.

I felt this was worth posting, tho, maybe so that you understand where I'm coming from. You don't have to agree with it, obviously. But it might spare us a lot of back-and-forth stuff when we could talk about what's actually *good* in games, rather than what sucks about one particular anon's tastes.

(cont'd)

[Anonymous No.3719549]

>>3719496
>>3719534

You're obviously no dummy, and you clearly have put as much thought into this as I have. Not about the same stuff, but it's there. That's why I'm not all that interested in trying to see which of us Cares More About Art or whatever. Because if you talk about things you like, rather than tell me how much the things I like suck, or the reasons why I like them are stupid, nothing really happens. I'm not about to be convinced that a game I have been praising for years is suddenly trash. What I want to know is why I keep praising it, because I can't deny that there's something interesting going on there.

So what I'm saying is if you talk about the stuff that you like, rather than just shitting on stuff that I like, I it's going to be more interesting. For me at least, anyways. I'm not interested in convincing you My Art Is Better Than Yours. Never mind what the title of the thread says. If there's another game you have in mind that you like more, then say so.

>>3719530
>>implying VI's convoluted nonsense and melodramatic bullshit wasn't a herald of the series' downfall
>implying IV's story and characters weren't better in every way
I wouldn't say it was FF6's fault itself. The downfall happens because it just hit its high-water mark there. FF4 is great and super-epic. I think FF6 is more psychologically rich in its characterization and that this shows up in the setting too. It's not as conventionally high epic as 4, but without a 4 there wouldn't have been a 6, or without 6 a 7. DQ games repeat themselves more than FF games do, which in their themes usually involve a little more social critique: technology, humanity, etc. The more they deal with tech, the less fantasy epic the characterization becomes. The crystal-fetish in FF4 I think heralds the technologism in 6, and that continues through in 7.

Is that wankery? I guess. But these are super-popular games and I think they hold up to close readings in interesting ways.

(cont'd)

[Anonymous No.3719558]

>>3719496
And now, having said all that...

>already enough to see you glorify something so empty and basic as FFVI, I don't need someone who spouts random buzzwords to explain me what is art, art is largely what you make of it.
Which is, again, what I am doing. But for some reason you are accusing me of doing exactly what you yourself are clearly saying people should do. You're trying to have it both ways.

>If you don't talk about gameplay means the game has fundamentally failed at being such.
The thread says, 'story.' Story. Not mechanics. Not saying it's not important, I'm saying it's not what this thread is about.

>due to the lack of linearity and a main plot
The plot is linear. Until the world gets nuked. Then it isn't. This is what makes it interesting.

>Saying this only reinforces the idea that you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to games.
And yet *you're not saying anything by this.* You're just saying I'm wrong. About what, fucker? Don't just repeat yourself. Make a claim.

>I'm more worried about your complete lack of awareness about what that entails.
See above.

>I honestly don't care about stories, orthodox narrative in videogames was largely used as a tool made to contextualize a framework of rulesets and metaphorical representations, as such stories should be merely incidental as far as I'm concerned. Game stories are largely uninspired and ill conceived for the media itself as most of the times a story is told through walls of text or cutscenes instead of making you play it.
OK. Finally. Now we know. You're not big on story in games. No problem. Now, this thread is *all about story.* This is what I'm saying. Criticize for what *is* there, not what isn't. That's all.

>Gameplay is ultimately the narrative tool that sets games apart from other media, the more you stray away from this rule the more your game loses its nature.
This *too* is interesting. I would have preferred to have skipped the preamble, but whatever.

[Anonymous No.3719615]

>>3719549
>I'm not all that interested in trying to see which of us Cares More About Art
It's not my interest either, I told you, art is largely what you make of it and a personal experience first of all. You made a huge panegyric about a game that is really, really basic even for its time and used a lot of portmanteau and largely meaningless terms like the game having certain "postmodern" values, what does that even mean? Are there "Colonial" or "Neo-Classical" videogames as well? I wonder what you would say about SaGa 1 if FFVI alone gets you soaring that high.
>I'm not about to be convinced that a game I have been praising for years is suddenly trash.
I'm not saying that it's trash, I'm only pointing out that what you try to sell as high art to others is you projecting your own experience on what is mostly a blank slate that is open to interpretation due to being fundamentally basic and devoid of hard content.
You've made your own Kool-Aid and you try to make people drink it by appealing to a personal interpretation of the game, especially influenced by playing a liberal translation on top of that.

What are you going to use as objective facts or value to describe most characters either? The game doesn't even remotely judges anyone or characterize them enough, should I blame Cyan for lying to that girl by impersonating her long dead boyfriend? Should I hate Sabin for being a selfish piece of shit? Is Kefka a good villain because he's insane and seemingly without purpose? Should I pity him for his sobstory? The game doesn't have any clear position, nor does it have any real message to speak of, you see some characters living a part of their(largely melodramatic) lives and that's about it, and it's not necessarily a bad thing either.

I don't see anything you see in that game, and the fact that you glorify some simple written melodrama only makes me think that the game wasn't good on the game part at all, if I was the game designer I'd be ashamed of reading this.

[Anonymous No.3719632]

>>3719615
>a lot of portmanteau and largely meaningless terms like the game having certain "postmodern" values, what does that even mean? Are there "Colonial" or "Neo-Classical" videogames as well? I wonder what you would say about SaGa 1 if FFVI alone gets you soaring that high.
Postmodernity is an actual concept. Full disclosure: I find infinite postmodern meta-whatever boring and tedious as fuck. I don't like irony. I like big epic myths. It doesn't mean the concept isn't real. Neoclassicism is also a thing. All this belongs to art criticism. It's interesting stuff. I'm not making any money on this, though. I'm just talking about stuff I like.

>i'm not saying that it's trash, I'm only pointing out that what you try to sell as high art to others is you projecting your own experience on what is mostly a blank slate that is open to interpretation due to being fundamentally basic and devoid of hard content. You've made your own Kool-Aid and you try to make people drink it by appealing to a personal interpretation of the game, especially influenced by playing a liberal translation on top of that.
Seriously, what the fuck? Who is *selling anything here?* I don't need to convince anyone. The title is there to create a conversation and it has. You're not under the gun to agree with me. You really aren't. But I am going to respond if you just tell me I'm just a retard for liking it. That's just how it is. Change your tactics, get a different response.

>especially influenced by playing a liberal translation on top of that
Holy moses. Who are the philosophers I talk about? Nietzsche and Heidegger. Hardly liberals. Zizek is Zizek, fine. But If you think I'm trying to 'deconstruct' FF6 for a liberal-arts degree or to propagate some meme ideology you are very much mistaken. I am trying to *stop* being a fucking meme, and that is why I am talking about art. Because great art is more interesting than ten-cent deconstructive readings.

(cont'd)

[Anonymous No.3719651]

>>3719615
>What are you going to use as objective facts or value to describe most characters
Simple: I'm not going to do that at all. When we are talking about psychology *objective facts and values are fucking retarded.* With so much Nietzsche name-dropping how can you miss this? Why ask for "objective facts and values" when obviously this would be ridiculous? The whole point is that *there are no facts, there are only interpretations.* And *values* are anything but objective. Psychology is like that. People are their values and the things they choose to live by. The most interesting forms of these are not cut-and-dried meme ideologies. They're something vastly more interesting.

And resist the urge to go bananas and say, oh, so 2d characters are so rich and complex? Lol grow up, etc. The characters are rich and interesting because they suggest these different personality types that really are, as that other anon said, even more positive than Kefka's. The game is stunningly rich in this sense. If you want objective facts and values in psychology you're asking in the wrong thread. And probably on the wrong planet.

The game doesn't make it easy for you. That doesn't mean it doesn't have a clear position. It means that the position it *does* have is complex and resists basic meme readings. Just like real human beings do.

>inb4 buzzwords, obscurantist hack
>tfw

>The game doesn't have any clear position, nor does it have any real message to speak of, you see some characters living a part of their(largely melodramatic) lives and that's about it
Yes. That's right. It's not that the game doesn't have a message, it's that it doesn't have One Big Stupid Message. It has a lot of little interesting messages greater than the sum of their parts.

>and it's not necessarily a bad thing either
No shit! You don't say!

>if I was the game designer I'd be proud of having made something people are still talking about and getting enjoyment from 20 years later
Fixed that for you.

[Anonymous No.3719680]

salutations OP, its rare to find someone with as much passion as i have for FFVI

ive always dreamed of giving this game its proper presentation. there are so many cool elements of the story. i used to have notepads full of ideas for a fully fleshed out game. shit where you gather up allies and have the imperial war campaign really fleshed out. shit where i would show more imperials and also make a whole group of unique magitek knights with their own special power.

i drew some ugly pictures of imperials dressed up in uniforms like pic related. also put alot of thought into the war of the magi part and how the statues would have had their own followers and been worshipped as gods. how a conflict like that would have actually played out.

the way i structured the world of ruin part it would have been similar to the war campaign in part 1. you gather up allies, unique people of interest, capital, assets, technology, weapons and then launch an all out assault on kefka's tower.

keep most of the main themes intact, but add some edge to it like imperials being like nazis and claiming superiority, make the world of ruin really grimdark, cannibals, weird ass cults, demons unleashed, really emphasize how much of a wasteland it is and also how the creatures were sealed since the war of the magi and unleashed.

i made sure each character also had a major theme based around the issues in the game world as well. for example edgar would be a king, but would be critical of autocratic rule because of the empire. so he would spend alot of time wondering how to make sure figaro stayed free long after his death.

hopefully one day we can team up and put some of this pontificating to use brother

[Anonymous No.3719690]

>>3719632
>Thinks liberal in liberal translation is something tied to political ideas
>Memes, memes, memes
>"There are no facts"
>Pulling out psychology, a literal pseudoscience based on unverifiable opinions to support a point

Oh brother, and here I am wasting my time responding to you.
Sorry, but I'm out, you're quite literally tripping balls over nothing and seeing things that are not there to begin with because you're too high on memes and discount philosophy for teens.

I have no incentives to keep talking with someone who's borderline allucinating and can't get out of his delusionary bubble, pulling out psychology of all things to somehow validate your ramblings was the last straw. This isn't even related to videogames anyway.

[Anonymous No.3719701]

>>3719680
That sounds fucking awesome man. I hope you dig those notebooks up someday and make something brilliant with them. Maybe write a story or something. These themes are basically timeless at this point, and that's why I think FF6 is so enduring. I'd buy a book inspired by this stuff in a hot second. Or a board game, or whatever.

Tolkien is enduring too, and he's like a god in this genre. It's almost impossible to get away from him...almost. So FF6 is just special in how it managed to *not repeat Tolkien.* They could have done it where there was a big battle on the floating island, you stop Kefka, that's that. But instead they went that extra step: what if that doesn't happen?

It's why I can't criticize the WoR. Not only for that reason. But because the WoR is basically a setting of its own: post-apoc baroque/steampunk fantasy. That's a ridiculously good look.

I've gotten pretty wanky in this thread, no doubt. But really it's just because that's the way I have of kind of showing my own affection for the game. I can go back and play it again, sure, but it's fun to talk about shit on /vr/ as well. Especially when you or other anons agree. And to be honest, even when they *don't* agree, but make you *think,* make you ask yourself, *why is this so awesome?* - that's good too. Because the game itself never stops being awesome. You just find new and interesting ways to look at it and appreciate that's there.

I know I've come off like a pseud windbag. I bring that on myself. But it's really not about me and my stupid opinions on art or philosophy. The point is the game, the story, the setting, all that. Just to kind of salute the whole thing I guess and remember how good it was. Without being too sentimental or defensive about it. Or maybe just to get rid of my own insanely obsessive art-symptom. I honestly don't know sometimes. Maybe there is no difference.

>inb4 ffs kys anon

I could get a blog for this I guess, but /vr/ has more cool & thoughtful anons.

[Anonymous No.3719708]

>>3719690
Cool. Thanks for sharing. Have a good one, sorry this discussion couldn't have been more enriching for you.

[Anonymous No.3719730]

>>3719701
fuck the haters my man
they just cant see what we see
i love your enthusiasm its refreshing as fuck and now i want to go write up a ton of shit about FFVI now

[Anonymous No.3719762]

>>3719730

Do you see this fist? I know: it doesn't look like he's smiling. That's because he's just so intense about what it is. Because this is no ordinary fist...but the legendary Bro-Fist of Figaro.

The dark world is full of horrors, it is dangerous to go alone: take this! FF6 magic belongs to everyone.

Anyways gents I think that's it for me, I've spent way too much time on /vr/ this aft and I really should get to some less awesome stuff that mainly involves snow-shoveling. But it genuinely has been a slice. Thanks for indulging one obsessive pseud-anon and for the cool insights all around. /vr/ is fucking awesome and FF6 is awesome and this thread confirms it.

>For the Returners!
>jesus anon, grow the fuck up already
>Or Something!

[Anonymous No.3720194]

>>3718439
>>3718583
Video games were and always are redpilled as you refer it. You usually play as a white guy or control them, killing everyone who is in your way. Women are usually for sex. Even when there was a female payable character they were highly objectified and sexualized for males.

[Anonymous No.3720278]

>>3720194
Is that really true tho? What about pic related? In U4 you couldn't determine your skin color, but you could I think pick your gender. It didn't matter too much. Didn't even affect your stats. Same with U5. In U6 you could be black, white, asian, male, female, young, old. That stuff didn't really matter much there either.

U7 not only letting you go to Buccaneer's Den and get your rocks off but you could roll with the dudes or the ladies, and they didn't even make a big deal about it. The companions that joined you were male and female, and you couldn't romance any of them. They weren't hypersexualized or objectified. Katarina was a boss and one of the strongest fighters.

I mean I know that Ultima is an exception because the game is literally about becoming a paragon of virtue. But the thing was that despite that the Ultima games were fucking awesome for reasons that actually had little to do with that theme. They were sandboxes with solid combat engines, interesting lore, and awesome art design and music.

U6 was definitely not redpilled b/c it was all about discrimination and so on with the gargoyles. I guess you could call that some liberalfag shit if you wanted...and tbqh it's not one of the stronger instalments. U5 is the best one because it's more about philosophy than social stuff. And the Lazarus remake is one of my all-time favourite games.

Just my two cents. I like talking about this stuff, it's interesting.

[Anonymous No.3720360]

>>3719701
>They could have done it where there was a big battle on the floating island, you stop Kefka, that's that.

But you do stop Kefka eventually. And FF6 does repeat Tolkien in a way. Sauron and his orcs fucked up the world quite a bit before he was stopped. Villains "half-winning" is a pretty common plot element.

[Anonymous No.3720374]

>>3720360
True. I guess for me it's that the difference lies in how much the story allows the BBG to win. Maybe I should be more explicit about this, b/c it's a good question. In both cases the heroes confront the villain at the end: Frodo & Sam punch into Mount Doom while Aragorn & Gandalf hold them off; in FF6 you split your party and everyone meets at the base of the big tower-thing-whatever.

>tfw at some point it would be cool to talk about that thing and it's symbolism also. anyways

Sauron fucks up the world, but to me it's not the same as how Kefka does it. Kefka's win is much more complete, radically transforming the world as he does. He completely changes the world after the floating island.

Sauron and the orcs fuck it up, and after Sauron is defeated the elves & so on do leave on the ships, and Middle-Earth becomes Earth Earth. But Sauron doesn't actually blow up Gondor, Rivendell, Bree, and the Shire and have everybody wandering out afterwards like post-apoc survivors. If the entire world was Mordor...you get what I mean.

No doubt also half-winning is a thing. But I still think FF6 is more complex than that. Kefka's win isn't a half-win. It's a *total* win. It's just that because he is such a psychopath he doesn't really understand this. It's why when your characters meet him at the end he is still full of hate and rage and so on...but the battle is also sort of anticlimactic. I joked above that the battle was easy because he had accomplished everything he wanted in life, and I actually think that's still true. What he wanted to accomplish was really nothing more than the destruction of that world, and he does so.

And that is what I find so amazing about the story. Kefka's win isn't a half-win. It's a total win for him in one sense, but a total loss in another that really has nothing to do with being defeated in battle. He's just revealed as a kind of a cynic at the end, but the point is that by that point the damage has been done.

cont'd

[Anonymous No.3720381]

>>3720278
redpillers dont care about race and such. They care about the individual. it is redpill as fuck if you are gay to fuck other guys. Redpill is about knowing how world works and making it your bitch. Not rascist/sexist shit. In games you usually play redpilled white guys who do what they want and fuck who they want with no thought of consequences. Sure you can name a few games that are exceptions but overall most games are about white people fucking chicks and killing everyone who gets in their way.

Fallout was redpilled. You could sleep with men and women, and kill kids.
And those were 80s games too.

Play 90s games. It was all about the redpill,

[Anonymous No.3720385]

>>3720360

Kefka is a product of the Empire, it's most perfect and most horrible one at the same time. He is 100% Do Not Give a Fuck. And this is what enables him to do what he does. He is experimented on by the empire, and then he repeats that experimentation on the world.

The thing for him is *meaning.* Even though the world is destroyed, people fight back. But the story would only be as good as it was if in some sense his victory really was in some sense complete and total - much more than LotR for me. Nothing else would suffice - or at least, I don't think it would move people (me, at least!) in the way that it does.

His win is total, in the sense that the world is fucked up; and in his own crazy mind. But then in the other sense it's only partial, because after all of that...people keep going anyways.

If the disaster had been prevented it just wouldn't be as good of a story as it is. Sauron is a slowly creeping danger, the Nazgul and the Orcs; Kefka's win is sudden and apocalyptic. He flips the whole world on its head. Ironically, he's not as deep as he thinks he is in the second part...

>tfw overanalyzing this much
>tfw if it weren't so damn interesting tho

The other interesting thing is that the game doesn't really play up his new Giant Purple Death Angel form. He doesn't even get a new sprite on the map screen. He doesn't fly around the world, give speeches, anything. Missed opportunity? Maybe/probably. But there's plenty enough there to think about with him as it is.

[Anonymous No.3720391]

> People talking about FF VI's good points

I would like to remind everyone that this is the only game where you can grapple and suplex a motherfucking train.

Thank you.

[Anonymous No.3720414]

>>3720385

The important thing about FF6 is that the bad guy's win is total and fundamentally and permanently transforms the shape of the world. The world is not saved, the disaster is not averted, and things do not go back to normal at the end. Maybe, in a way, this had to happen. Could be. But there is no restoration, and the bad guy isn't even apologetic in defeat, he laughs (tho also rages, it's true) all the way to the end. The heroes go out into a broken and fucked-up world, but not miserably. Incredibly, the developers still make you feel positive about this. Maybe a post-empire world will be good. You do get some of that hopeful feeling, even if you're not exactly sure what you're supposed to be hopeful about. I think that's a mature sensibility.

Games which allow the bad guy to win like that *without being ironic or super grimdark* are rare. I don't know about SF, but in fantasy that seems pretty rare to me. FF6 is still, amazingly, hopeful at the end, and none of the characters are wisecracking or whatever and being ironic about the end of the world.

So this is all territory that for me Tolkien didn't go into, and why I'm such a fan. There are other non-Tolkien fantasy writers - Mieville, Moorcock, Peake, etc. - but their worlds are frequently dystopias or New Weird or whatever. FF6 stays romantic and fanasy-epic despite the story itself being about the obvious dangers of excess romanticism. It doesn't cheap out and make you feel good about things, and it doesn't up Good Nature/Bad Tech dichotomies. The ending is mysterious, Terra is weirdly quiet for a protagonist, and there's no obvious message of what it all meant...but to me all of these are indications of the game's success and not its shortcomings.

The developers avoided doing the predictable stupid things just because we expect those, and to me that's what makes it such a masterpiece.

>tfw can't tell the difference between thinking and overthinking

[Anonymous No.3720423]

>>3720391

YES

These guys have been subject to so much pseud bullshit from me in this thread and yet somehow nobody has pointed out this until now.

I feel like I can now die in peace.

[Anonymous No.3720437]

>>3720374
What Kefka did is shite compared to what Sauron pulled off. But you wouldn't know this if you didn't read the Silmarillion, so I won't hijack the thread with LotR lore.
What Kefka does is absolutely unique in the scope of video games.
Usually they want to stoke off the player and make the player think "No matter what, I'm gonna save the day!" But FFVI goes absolutely fucking hopeless in the second act. The scene with Celes attempting suicide actually almost made me cry.

[Anonymous No.3720461]

>>3720381
>updated my journal

Interesting. I thought redpill stuff involved white Christian nationalism stuff, but maybe that's just the /pol/ take and every board has its own variant on what the red pill means. The /vr/ version makes sense to me also tho.

So I guess that makes Sarevok pretty redpilled...except I sometimes wonder how many girls he got. He looks badass but I actually feel like Minsc probably had more notches on his belt than Sarevok did (which would probably be super-embarrassing). He's got the hamster, it's almost not even fair.

Trying to think of a more appropriate example now. I guess The Nameless One from PS:T would be a better case, he tore up most of the planes in his previous incarnations. He might be the most redpilled character of all time, except that by the time you get to be him he's already put that life behind him...Jon Irenicus fits your definition, but you don't get to play him.

Honestly I find fucking up orc encampments in Warcraft 2 pretty much perfect for this stuff. Before it became all about the lore and was just about mercilessly blasting shit to the ground. And Master of Magic/Master of Orion are both good for this also, with the custom factions and wizards and such and 4x games just being about total domination.

[Anonymous No.3720482]

>>3720437
>What Kefka does is absolutely unique in the scope of video games
Yes!

>But you wouldn't know this if you didn't read the Silmarillion, so I won't hijack the thread with LotR lore
Fuck!

>Usually they want to stoke off the player and make the player think "No matter what, I'm gonna save the day!" But FFVI goes absolutely fucking hopeless in the second act.
This!

>The scene with Celes attempting suicide actually almost made me cry.
Yep...

I actually did re-read the Silmarillion last year but I'm not quite sure what you're referring to. Feel free to talk about LotR tho, it's actually why I am so into FF6 right now, because of the whole notion of how fantasy allows/does not allow villains to blow up the world and 'win', or how that changes our whole understanding of this stuff.

One of my oldest friends can basically teach graduate courses in Silmarillion lore, it's like a religious text to him (and it basically is a religious text already, so...) But sometimes Tolkien's lock on the genre gets so huge that you want to just try and see if there's anything fucking *left*...or if you just don't also want to subscribe to the not-subtle critique of technology that is in his work. And without going, as I said, full on into Moorcock/Mieville territory. Both those guys are cool and I like them but not as much as this.

>The Warhound and the World's Pain is great tho

So anyways talk it up my man if you feel like it. That's what I've been doing...

[Anonymous No.3720517]

Final Fantasy 6 was cool and all, but does it have an ancient tree wizard that wears full plate armor and rests its hand on a sword like a cane?

[Anonymous No.3720602]

>>3720517
Exdeath is pure class. That's an awesome piece of Amano art. And evil trees make for excellent enemies. It's nice when they don't overthink the personality too:

>Exdeath is a selfish, maniacal, loud-mouthed, blasphemous being of pure evil. He treats Bartz Klauser and his party as mere pests in the way of his goal, and swats them away without killing them, seeing no reason to dispose of such a mild threat. He may seem cocky, but his power is practically unmatched. Exdeath shows no empathy for the slaughter of his minions, even thinning out his own lines as punishment for their failings. He is incapable of understanding positive human emotions, such as love

What is there not to love here? I especially like 'loud-mouthed.' Far too often pure evil is withdrawn or remote or silent.

FF6 can field a ninja in full plate with a gun. You wouldn't have thought that combination could work, would you?

>well you would be right to think that

[Anonymous No.3720703]

>>3718819
>>3718820
Who says remakes have to be not retro?

I remember how in quake 2, one of the regular maps on the lithium mod servers was a remake of "dead simple".

In fact, someone's already been making a quite nice 3d remake of Narshe. So, say if there was an enhanced version of Hexen 2 out there, like with the Darkplaces engine, a remake of one or two FF6 areas for that would likely be really nice. Which I'm guessing would happen to run well on a modded wii.

[Anonymous No.3721201]

>>3719651
>When we are talking about psychology *objective facts and values are fucking retarded.* With so much Nietzsche name-dropping how can you miss this? Why ask for "objective facts and values" when obviously this would be ridiculous? The whole point is that *there are no facts, there are only interpretations.* And *values* are anything but objective. Psychology is like that. People are their values and the things they choose to live by. The most interesting forms of these are not cut-and-dried meme ideologies.
Dude. Do you even know what psychology is? Did you even study it? There's a difference between the study subject of human behavior that might be irrational and the study of psychology itself that is far from irrational. In case you're not aware, it's a science where evidence in the form of experiments matter matter a lot, you can't say anything random and claim that to be true to psychology.

You seem to follow an ideology yourself by stating that things are relative by default while in reality things aren't as relative as you make it out to be. Not only psychology but also in other sciences like law, philosophy or mathematics there are a set amount of rules that should be followed. Argumentation and especially the quality of it matters a lot.

There's one thing I do agree with you and that's how some people seem to look for more than what's actually there which is honestly useless especially in what I mentioned beforehand. However, just because they see something you don't see and you don't agree with it doesn't nullify the worth of his experience. He shouldn't force his opinion, neither should he believe that only his experience is the only true one but as long as he doesn't anything of the two, there's no problem with that and I can't find out why you would thing that's problematic. The theory of evaluative knowledge is seen as better as absolute obedience and absolute scepticism but things aren't as relative as you might believe.

[Anonymous No.3721304]

>>3721201

Full disclosure: in 99.4% of cases people who invoke 'philosophy' to talk about their favourite video games are the pseudiest pseuds in pseudtown and I am one of those. Not for one hot second will I deny this.

Now then:

>Did you even study psychology?
Nope. But unless you are a total STEMfag positivist the lines between phil and psych are blurred nearly to indistinction and I am okay with that. I am 1006% on the side of the uncertainty principle. Art, tho...

>in reality things aren't as relative as you make it out to be.
You're right, but the scenic tour that leads to that point goes through memetic wonderland first. That earlier anon was raising some interesting stuff but stopped after some mild shitposting right when things were getting interesting. He's entitled to his opinions of course but I don't see things the same way. Doesn't mean he's wrong or that I'm right. Just that complex stuff resists reduction (especially boring reduction). It's why it's good to talk about stuff in a less crusty way. And also why ad hominem gets nobody anywhere.

>You seem to follow an ideology yourself
Not even remotely true. Nor do I expect anyone else to follow one! Ideologies are just meme-sets that we fail to recognize, like being trapped in a big soap bubble. It's why I don't do debate or argumentation: it's just two soap bubbles bouncing off each other pointlessly. Shitpost wars are extra-foolish. There are much more interesting things to contemplate.

>just because they see something you don't see and you don't agree with it doesn't nullify the worth of his experience.
100% no argument there!

Your post is thoughtful and tbqh I'm honestly glad you decided to share it. But I am obliged to give some sense of where I'm coming from as well. I am a pseud through and through no doubt (why else would I find Kefka Palazzo so interesting?) All I'm doing is drawing the contours of a soap bubble I know deep down I can't really escape from. Does that makes sense?

cont'd

[Anonymous No.3721340]

>>3721201

Thus Sprach Zarapseudstra, Continueth:

The truth is that *infinite relativism bothers the shit out of me.* I don't like deconstruction...all of the stuff that positivists/analytics/whatevers accuse continental philosophers of doing. They deserve it because most of those guys are pretentious assholes.

>and so am i

What grieves me the most is that somewhere in the scuffle our capacity to appreciate art went missing. People fall all over themselves to shit on art to show how cool & un-memed they are but cynicism w/regards to art is a meme supreme. It's silliness.

The best works of art show up something about people, maybe even about how we got to be where we are in today (in short: part disneyland, part fucking apocalypse). FF6 tells that story *perfectly.* It's why it's my favourite game ever and I get the warm fuzzies when I think about it.

>tfw you realize you could actually be playing it now instead of shitting up /vr/
>maybe in a sec tho

So this is not my blog and I don't plan to go on a culture-war rant. I have no doubt that you understand the theory and practice of modern scientific psychology better than me. But in the end we remain squishy meatbags who look at art and go, hmm. It's why I prefer to talk about video games rather than talk about myself. They are way more interesting. The collective greater than the sum of its parts is always way more interesting than the individual, provided that collective itself is not just another meme. It's why I love those characters so much. They're neither so unique nor so different, no one of them in particular is the hero...and the guy who blew up the world wasn't a big bad guy, but a historical product of that time and place, and the way that people thought...what beats his nihilism is not one single reason, but a multitude of overlapping reasons...

I don't know about you, but I find that crazy fucking interesting.

[Anonymous No.3721387]

>>3721304

>100% no argument there!

How is that not an argument? Every person is free to believe what he likes to believe under strict conditions. It's usually solidified in constitutions and treaties. Besides, in stuff like contract law there's a lot of theory about the role of 3rd parties (not to be confused with the term "3rd party" commonly used in relation to publishing software on a different platform) and when it is or isn't opposable compared to the parties.

>> It's why I don't do debate or argumentation: it's just two soap bubbles bouncing off each other pointlessly

Then what the fuck are you doing here?? The whole point of this board is to DEBATE, to DISCUSS about stuff related to games that are related to the rule on the sticky. If you rather "contemplate" without getting into arguements than you're at the wrong place. You're better off somewhere else on the internet. Not even saying that as a typical shitposter who just wants to stir shit up, I am very serious about this. If you just want to write a blog then do so but this is not the place to do so in that way.

Also, you keep using the idea of relativity as an argument in the rest of your posts as if you're saying "we're all right in our own way, let us agree to disagree and be done with that". That my friend is a HUGE fallacy and ends every argument prematurely almost as badly as the so-called "argumentum ad hitlerum". It serves no purpose but to avoid arguments while reality has shown several times that it is much better to actually do argue about problems and try to understand another better or trying to solve comparable problems in the future. Otherwise there would be no law or jurisprudence and believe me, living in a society where none of the two is as well constructed as in a lawful state is not where you want to live in. Just because the term itself has been abused much lately doesn't negate how incredibly important freedom of speech and freedom of opinion are.

[Anonymous No.3721445]

>>3721387
>The whole point of this board is to DEBATE, to DISCUSS about stuff related to games that are related to the rule on the sticky. If you rather "contemplate" without getting into arguements than you're at the wrong place.
True. You're not wrong. I prefer discuss more than debate. It is what it is and I accept that.

>Also, you keep using the idea of relativity as an argument in the rest of your posts as if you're saying "we're all right in our own way, let us agree to disagree and be done with that".
It's not really 'agree to disagree.' I haven't agreed to disagree. I almost never do. Most disagreements I think just proceed from a lack of awareness of common ground. I usually just wind up waiting for people to stop talking themselves in circles. I do it too tho.

>That my friend is a HUGE fallacy and ends every argument prematurely almost as badly as the so-called "argumentum ad hitlerum". It serves no purpose but to avoid arguments while reality has shown several times that it is much better to actually do argue about problems and try to understand another better or trying to solve comparable problems in the future.
Not so much avoiding arguments as being bored with them. People have deep needs to overhear themselves their own opinions in public. Like me! But there's bigger stuff going on.

Picture someone in a playground trying to play a game of Marco Polo:

>marco
>tag, you're it
>shit

>marco
>steeeee-rike
>ok

>marco
>shh, this is hide and seek
>sorry

>marco
>he's dead jim
>damn

Everyone is playing different games by different rules, but there's really only one playground, I think. The game I'm playing is no different from any other. Now, being a confirmed memer would be only being able to play that one game over and over again without realizing it. What I like is *maybe* intimating the whole playground from a different perspective. I'm not quite there yet...but I have to say my own meme opinions to find out how/why I'm wrong.

[Anonymous No.3721740]

>thread consists of FFVI fans writing overly-obtuse and esoteric tl;dr's

Another thread showing me how fucking ridiculous and overbearing FFVI fans are

VII is better anyway to those who aren't contrarians

[Anonymous No.3721940]

>>3721740
Who says we're all particularly serious FF6 fans?

[Anonymous No.3722237]

>>3720461
redpill has been a lot longer than Christian nationalist. Lots of people use it, it just means that a group believes it sees the truth whereas most people dont.

It was common among nerds, conspiracy theorist, etc. Later player type started using it to describe the philosophy of picking up women. The christain nationalist are lamers and just jumped on this meme pretty late.

I dont know if the nameless one is redpilled because so is everyone else in Sigil. If anything he doesnt know what is going on, because he doesnt remember.