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/vr/ - Retro Games

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9961901 No.9961901 [Reply] [Original]

>In a 2006 interview with US Official PlayStation 2 Magazine, game designer Hideo Kojima agreed with Ebert's assessment that video games are not art. Kojima acknowledged that games may contain artwork, but he stressed the intrinsically popular nature of video games in contrast to the niche interests served by art. Since the highest ideal of all video games is to achieve 100% player satisfaction whereas art is targeted to at least one person, Kojima argued that video game creation is more of a service than an artistic endeavor

>> No.9961904

>>9961901
anything that requires skill to create is an art

>> No.9961907

>>9961901
What a dumb take on every level

>> No.9961920

Hideki Kamiya also agrees.
In my opinion, it doesn't matter, but if saying that video games can't be art triggers people like hipsters who praise movie games to no end, then it's good.

>> No.9961942

>>9961901
>niche interests
lol, LMAO
Some of the most important works of art in history were commercial products made to order.

>> No.9961946

art is vague word, and should only be used as 'the art of' or 'the arts (in reference to what we call things like paintings, scultpures and things very closely related) anyone who tries to give the idea the calling something art beyond that only wants it because of the misconception that it's regard as a more sophisticated or serious form of livelihood. Entertainment being entertainment doesn't lower itself as some like to think.

>> No.9961957

>>9961901
I don’t really care if video games are art or not, but this just proves Kojima wants to be known as anything but a video game designer. He’s like a Japanese, talented David Cage.

>> No.9961959

Combining visual design, storytelling, music, and every other aspect of video games results in individual art forms becoming non-art, because people enjoy it.
What the fuck is that gay argument.

>> No.9961964

Videogames are art, they're just not necessarily high art

>> No.9961978

The people obsessed with videogames being seen as art are people who are too self-conscious and don't like people telling them that they're wasting time playing them. So they have to tell everyone "it's not entertainment, it's art"

>> No.9961983

>>9961978
"it's not entertainment, it's art"
It's both

>> No.9961987
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9961987

>>9961901
>kojima bending the knee to a film-adjacent westerner
Nothing to see here.

>> No.9961993 [DELETED] 

>illustration is art
so corporate shit like Flat Design from Google is art?
>music is art
so the laziest nigger who raps about smoking kush over preset beats is art?
>movies is art
so the latest Hollywood jewshit meant to demoralize you is art?

>> No.9962009

>>9961942
>Some of the most important works of art in history were commercial products made to order.
By a single patron and/or for a small minority of people hence
>niche interests
compared to video games shat out for the masses
dumbass

>> No.9962016

Kojima would have tongued Roger Ebert's asshole if he had the opportunity

>> No.9962036

>>9961901
I don't necessarily agree, 100%, but this is hard topic and any hard stance is meritable. Respect for Kojima +100 pts

>>9961904
Talent comes out of a talented person without them thinking about it. It doesn't make what they make "an art."

>>9961920
>but if saying that video games can't be art triggers people
>then it's good
Granting this is 4chan, why would you be proud of that? That's an even worse take than "video games are art."

>>9961942
>most important works of art in history were commercial products made to order.
Yeah? TO SATISFY A NICHE CLIENTELLE.

>>9961946
this desu senpai

>> No.9962046

Games are not art, games cannot ever be art, games should never be considered art by any rational person, and anyone arguing otherwise is an idiotic peasant with no understanding of the arts. You think you're children's toys are doing anything for cultural advancement? You really believe Super Mario is on the same level as David or the Mona Lisa? We play games when they come out, we get tired of them, we throw them in the bin and move on to the next big thing. It's no more complicated than that. Games are products to be used and discarded, playthings with no greater meaning than to serve as simple, unhealthy distractions. These pretentious losers arguing that we should be taking them any more seriously need to stop whining and find a real job.

>> No.9962047

>>9961983
I dont disagree, I'm just making a point about the people that obsess over it.

>> No.9962050

>>9961901
Kojima is a loser that tries to use video games as a backdoor into movie making.

>> No.9962063

>>9961993
Yes anon, all of those things are art. You seem to be under the impression that if something sucks then it's not art when that's simply not true. Art is merely the expression of something through a medium, regardless of its quality. Art is the easiest thing to create in the world, and really it's impossible for something to fail to be art because how do you fail at expressing yourself, even if you didn't get the result you wanted? The Room is a shit movie (albeit a funny shit movie), that doesn't change that it's art because ultimately Tommy Wiseau made a movie.
The idea that something only counts as art if it'll be remembered decades from now, comes from people with no artistic talent themselves and thus view everything in terms of quality.

>> No.9962079

>>9962046
>>9961901
>>9962050
games are art because they express a part of a human, that's it, there's like in any media bad and good quality art but both of them are still art, the argument of having multiple people doesn't destroy this because the mix of multiple persons and their expressions is still an expression of humans, even if is still separated on specific viewpoints (which even in this case there's games made by one person, something that makes this point moot), by that logic most paintings aren't art because they used a model to make them and weren't made by a lone person.

>> No.9962089
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9962089

>>9961901
And those same people consider picrel art…

>> No.9962095

>>9962079
following this, kojima has a 6/10 writing, he can make simple themes work but struggles at putting themes with nuance, this is caused by his way of making games, which he does by using movie tropes instead of adding the story on the gameplay, most of the time he makes a movie which adds to a game not a game which tells an story.

>> No.9962112

>>9962079
And what the fuck is Super Mario "expressing"? What is meant to be artistic about fucking Zelda? You're taking these products you use to waste time WAY too seriously. When you go outside for a smoke break, do you sit and admire the sheer "artistry" of you're cigarette as well? It's not remotely that deep. When a video game comes anywhere near to doing anything for cultural advancement as Romeo & Juliet, then feel free to call me wrong, but sadly for you that's never going to happen.

>> No.9962113

>>9961904
First post best post. I didn't expect to see someone get it right so quickly. At it's base, art means skill.

>> No.9962114

>>9962112
>only high art is art

>> No.9962116

>>9962036
Skill/art and talent are very different.

>> No.9962126

>>9962114
Correct, trash will never be art. Video games will never be art.

>> No.9962142

>>9962112
the lyrical and culturally classic story of the hero journey by having a rescue mission on a weird world, it expresses the drugged vision of shigeru by making a crazy world with funny mushrooms with a message of tenacity and heroism.
simple, very cliche but still an expression of someone, the same with zelda just with getting 3 triangles.
cigarettes aren't art because they don't show anything, any videogame by default has a premise, even if very basic, the simple act of interacting with something generates an intended feeling, peace, tension, excellence and many more, this simple fact makes even games made by two x's art and makes irl games art too (which are considered art)
you could use the megaman series (a media which sees the morality of giving consciousness to machines and the results of it, even if it was on a very subtle way to make it easier to sell sadly) and deus ex as examples of games which have similar levels of art as other media as surface examples

>> No.9962150

>>9961901
It's true, video games are more akin to graphic design than art. Graphic Design is made to be accessible, readable and reproduced endlessly. Art can be reproduced and sold, but its objective is never to be profitable or cater to an audience, but to express something.

>> No.9962154

>>9962142
>>9962114
Why are you guys responding to such low tier bait? He's clearly a brainlet that just wants to be spoonfed what to think or stroking his rageboner over Nintendo's success with the Mario movie and TotK. Given his cigarette analogy I'm going to say the latter.

>> No.9962161

>>9962142
You're a pretentious bullshit peddler.
>it expresses the drugged vision of shigeru by making a crazy world with funny mushrooms with a message of tenacity and heroism
>generates an intended feeling, peace, tension, excellence
And just how high must one be in order to get these "feelings"? It's a game for children where you bounce around colourful landscapes. Look at how much you're straining to try to read into something that simply is not there.
>cigarettes aren't art because they don't show anything
But anon, somebody made the cigarette! They were expressing that menthol is soothing! ART!!!
What a fucking joke.

>> No.9962175

>>9962150
there's games which never sell well and never cater to an audience, videogames can be made to never cater to an audience on the first place just like any media too, most gallery art cannot be art by that because it was made to sell and was made as a way to launder money, not the expression of someone.
this can be applied to videogames, not because they aren't art but because there's media which was made to cater (which makes it bad art, not art tho, see horrible movie games), most of these medias express something, even if it's the absolute trash of horrible globohomo ideals or the lying of non related people to hide money laundering.
>>9962154
i like to talk about funny topics
>>9962161
>And just how high must one be in order to get these "feelings"?
by just playing the game, the game forces you at jumping in close enemies which makes you feel tenacity by surviving hard encounters and the act of rescuing the princess causes the heroism, simple but effective.
>But anon, somebody made the cigarette!
it doesn't show an intent, no one made the cigarette to show shit, mario had an intent to make you feel well by rescuing the princess, if that intent wasn't there there wouldn't be any incentive. even with that, the intent of making you have fun by doing an objective is still an incentive, even if the feeling is done by the act of doing it, it's an expression even on the simplest of ways, thus art.

>> No.9962180

>>9962175
no incentive, thus no game.*

>> No.9962192

>>9962175
>there's games which never sell
Not intentionally. The closest I could see is something released for free on itch or something like that.

>> No.9962195

>>9962192
those games are that, personal projects, unpopular steam games and more, art is the same, sold art is still art if it wasn't modified to suit someone.

>> No.9962196

>>9962195
and even if modified it's still art, even if it's dishonest and bad art which doesn't express the author intent, thus making it of low quality.

>> No.9962202

>>9962195
drawings, art is the expression, not just paintings even if they are normally used as synonyms.

>> No.9962225

It's just faux-modesty. In that moment Kojima was thinking
>If I say games are art, everyone will say I have an enflated ego again because I consider myself an artist so I have to answer no

Never forget that interviews are marketing

>> No.9962249

>>9962225
He's an unrepentant narcissist, he puts his name in the credits at least 50 times per game. This rationalization is yours and nobody else's.

>> No.9962253

>>9962195
>those games are that, personal projects
Which is why they could conceivably be artistic projects.
> unpopular steam games
They were uploaded to the store, the author expected them to sell or become popular. Selling like shit doesn't make a product into a piece of art.

>> No.9962265

>>9961901
If cinema is art so are games. Cinema has its Godfathers and Transformers but nobody challenges it

>> No.9962274

>>9962253
>They were uploaded to the store, the author expected them to sell or become popular. Selling like shit doesn't make a product into a piece of art.
and selling something doesn't remove their art status (and people normally sell these art games on steam to make it more accesible, this is the reason they put it up for free or they are deluxe versions from an originally free game to get money so they can eat, even with this, making a game with a vision and selling it doesn't remove the vision, it's just someone who wants to get money from their efforts to simply survive and as a result give an option to give them money easily, this is the reason most game devs don't care that much if you pirate, they understand that some people will never pay or want to, which is the reason they like piracy as free publicity of people which will pay and so a lot of people enjoy their games, this is the reason a lot of pirated copies of indies are self uploaded, they just don't give it for free on the service because steam doesn't give an option to have put your price games, which is the reason itch.io is used, even if it has the issue of just accepting paypal and not payment through irl stores), the best books of all time were originally sold, the thing that makes it art is the expression of someone, something that videogames accomplish, they can be shit or they can be good, shit art is still shit but that doesn't remove that they are the expression of someone or their lack of values and the expression of someone else by selling themselves.

>> No.9962281

>>9962274
people who pirate and never pay for the thing they pirate will never buy it even if they couldn't pirate, so it's meaningless to pursue them, making them free publicity for paying people by showing the quality of the game increases sales by a lot.

>> No.9962285

>>9962274
put these art games*

>> No.9962289

>>9962274
for people which will pay*

>> No.9962295

There is nothing worse than people talking about what is or isn't art. It's so fucking pretentious and dishonest. No one argues in good faith and it's all subjective fart-sniffing and prancing around the issue like faggots.

If music is art, storytelling is art, voice acting is art, and literal drawn art is art, then videogames are art. Period.

>> No.9962314

>>9962295
The only one prancing around like a namby pamby pretentious hipster is you. Art has meaning, it has a value to culture and society. There is a standard to which art is held. Video games are woefully lacking by that standard, and will never be art. You're taking fucking TOYS way more seriously than any rational person would.

>> No.9962323

>Although Ebert did not engage with the issue again and his view remains mired in controversy, the notion that video games are ineligible to be considered fine art due to their commercial appeal and structure as choice-driven narratives has proved persuasive for many including video game luminary Brian Moriarty, who in March 2011 gave a lecture on the topic entitled An Apology For Roger Ebert. In this lecture Moriarty emphasized that video games are merely an extension of traditional rule-based games and that there has been no call to declare games like Chess and Go to be art. He went on to argue that art in the sense that Romantics like Ebert, Schopenhauer, and he were concerned with (i.e. fine art or sublime art) is exceptionally rare and that Ebert was being consistent by declaring video games to be without artistic merit in as much as Ebert had previously claimed that "hardly any movies are art".[51] Moriarty decried the modern expansion of the definition of art to include low art, comparing video games to kitsch and describing aesthetic appreciation of video games as camp. After addressing the corrupting influence of commercial forces in indie games and the difficulty of setting out to create art given the "slippery" tools that game designers must work with, Moriarty concluded that ultimately it was the fact that player choices were presented in games that structurally invalidated the application of the term "art" to video games as the audience's interaction with the work wrests control from the author and thereby negates the expression of art.

>> No.9962332

>>9962295
>There is nothing worse

/lit/ and /mu/ are generally worse than this. People being hateful about art is worse than people being clumsily pretentious about art. Otherwise I agree though, this kind of conversation sucks. Frustrated manchildren just have to explain their philosophies though, and to give the last word on every abstract topic. Over and over and over again.

>> No.9962342

>>9961904
False. Anything that is created for its subjective value is art.

>> No.9962343

>>9962323
>Ebert was being consistent by declaring video games to be without artistic merit in as much as Ebert had previously claimed that "hardly any movies are art".

Ebert wasn't being consistent. He fatly watched many many movies and judged whether they were art; then he fatly, dyingly played ZERO games and judged whether they were art. He was being a crotchety old fool and rambling carelessly because it felt good.

Giving a fancy lecture in defense of some old man's thoughtless mistake sounds like a pretty stupid thing to do.

>> No.9962382

>>9962323
the issue of this is that ebert didn't played games and is just doing semantics by not wanting to admit that they are the expression of someone thus art.
movies are as corrupt or more corrupt than games, you need millions to make a movie and the access of it is impossible than just a few and they are still art because they express the ideas of someone, even if they are trash, chess and go can be considered art by that metric because they show medieval fights on a playful manner, something that reflects art, the same as go which represents the feeling of a fight, including with this games can go against these rule mechanisms so it isn't a point, by that logic writing isn't art because it has an structure, structure by choice is just a way to make games and it's made to show the game on a more complete manner, just like adventure books or even normal books, the self expression of the artist isn't broken by this too because devs can develop a more focused linear design and develop the areas which players pass, so the self choice just reflects the expression of someone rather than by the person playing just by the parts being made by the person who did it, making his game the creation of him, by that logic someone making movie theories is destroying the intent of movies and thus making them less art, art is high art if has a quality (something that games have done and can do) so ebert is just being a retard.
ebert is just flip flopping so he can be a retard, just like most petulant bad quality critics really

>> No.9962385

>>9962382
need to unavoidably pass*

>> No.9962387

>>9962382
it's like the man thinks that open world games are the only thing that exists by just seeing trailers, something which is predictable.

>> No.9962389

>>9962314
hahahah shut the fuck up obnoxious retard

>> No.9962397
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9962397

>>9961901
guess movies, magazines, books, posters, canvas, drawings, arent "art" either

these people are dumbasses

>> No.9962429

>>9962387

ebert thought*

>> No.9962445
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9962445

To anyone using Super Mario as an example of vidya not being art, Super Mario isn't rightfully art but it paved the way for future vidya that can be considered artistic. Super Mario established music as an important part of game design, for example.

Same thing happened with cinema. Many modern cinematography techniques were created in a Russian documentary film called Man with a Movie Camera, which was probably not considered art at the time but it paved the way for future artistic cinema.

Super Mario could be seen as gaming's version of Man with a Movie Camera.

>> No.9962451

>>9962445
mario is art because it expresses something, it's simple art but it's art.
art isn't the quality of something but the expression of someone through any medium.

>> No.9962457

>>9961978
It didn't help that this was also the mantra being pushed at the time by game journalists and fat fuck youtubers like gameovereater, who only wanted it so they could tell other industries how "important" they were

>> No.9962463

>>9962457
ironically to make games like movies.
games are art but because they are art they should their own medium to their advantage, not just trying to badly copy other medium like movies, the act of saying that videogames are art should be so people praise interactivity on games by being the special thing on videogames and that with that movie games could be shunned like the shit they are.

>> No.9962464
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9962464

>>9961901
But everyone knows art is in the Eye of the Beholder.

>> No.9962472

>>9962463
use their own*

>> No.9962498

I think the worst thing besides, the retards that pointlessly suck off this fossil as flawless, is that it ignores that there's plenty of indie devs who make weird ass games just cause they want to or because they want to express something. I have zero idea how you could look at a dev like Kitty Horror Show or something and think they're not doing art.
It also ignores that art of all kind has beeb highly commercialized and historically very often been done as a means of profit.

>> No.9962560

>>9961957
>Talented
So he's nothing like David Cage except for being a game developer

>> No.9962579

>>9961901
Good thing Hideo Kojima is an idiot and hack whose opinions don't matter anymore than Ebert's did

>> No.9962602

The decade that the gaming industry spent trying as hard as they could to prove Ebert wrong only proved him right

>> No.9962614

>>9961901
We knew Kojima was a midwit long before that.

>> No.9962624

>>9962036
>It doesn't make what they make "an art."
Define art.

>> No.9962639

>>9961946
Art isn't vague, it's been discussed and defined extensively in philosophical and educated circles.
The problem is retarded semi-literate plebs throwing around words and concepts with 0 understanding of what they actually mean.
This is the issue with teaching idiots how to read.

>> No.9962652

>>9961901
Artfags born after the 19th century are all certified navel-gazing faggots. Don't even get me started on the critics.
Vidya was much better before when it wasn't trying to be considered art.

>> No.9962750
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9962750

>>9961987
This, that's all there is to it. Everyone knows Kojima doesn't actually like making video games. He's just a westaboo who wishes he was making Hollywood movies and will always lick the ass of anyone who's remotely popular around the western film industry.

>> No.9962797

>>9961901
They wouldn't have let him continue if he didn't agree, his hands were obviously tied there.

>> No.9962814

>>9962602
nah, the issue is that they removed the real artistic part of videogames, which is interactivity to appease him, they proved him wrong by doing what he thought was the thing videogames needed, the removal of interaction.

>> No.9962815

>>9961901
Source: Monkeys May Fly Out My Butt (5th Edition)

>> No.9962821

>>9961904
Correct, now one could argue that video games are not a "fine art" but they are an art in their own way the same as TV, movies, books, etc.

>> No.9962832

>>9961901
>Since the highest ideal of all video games is to achieve 100% player satisfaction
That's not even remotely true. Sure the majority do, but the same applies to films, and I'm sure Kojima would call films art. It's only a minority of works that strive to be personal, that holds true for any form of entertainment that has a major commercial component to it, and that applies to video games as well.

>> No.9962869

>>9961904
Pretty much this. But Kojima is right he does just make fan service compilations based on other mainstream fads.

>> No.9962881
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9962881

>>9962112
>do you sit and admire the sheer "artistry" of you're cigarette as well?

Yes, there's an art and science behind the design and quality of ingredients in a cigarette. You don't sip a fine wine or a well-brewed coffee slowly to appreciate the craftsmanship that went into it?

Also,

>"you're"
>not "your"
bruh.jpg

>> No.9962929

>>9962815
The source is literally in the first sentence ya dingus

>> No.9962956

>>9962112
>Anons are taking this bait seriously

>> No.9962997

>>9962342
Any subjectively valued thing requires some skill to make, even if the skill is chance based or destructive.

>> No.9963113

Who cares what it is. A painting is a painting, a film is a film, a videogame is a videogame. Pac Man has more value as a human creation than any Jackson Pollock creation.

>> No.9963161

>>9962046
>Movies are not art, movies cannot ever be art, movies should never be considered art by any rational person, and anyone arguing otherwise is an idiotic peasant with no understanding of the arts. You think you're children's moving pictures are doing anything for cultural advancement? You really believe Marvel is on the same level as David or the Mona Lisa? We watch movies when they come out, we get tired of them, we throw them in the bin and move on to the next big thing. It's no more complicated than that. Movies are products to be used and discarded, playthings with no greater meaning than to serve as simple, unhealthy distractions. These pretentious losers arguing that we should be taking them any more seriously need to stop whining and find a real job.

>> No.9963667

>>9961901
Games are obviously art but that doesn't mean anything. A 5 year old can draw a picture or make a song and it would be art.

Something doesn't become art when it is good.

>> No.9963914
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9963914

>>9962089
¯\_ (ツ)_/¯

>> No.9963947

>Since the highest ideal of all video games is to achieve 100% player satisfaction

Absolute soulless corpo take, this is the exact mentality that creates uninspired drivel like New World, Gollum game, Forspoken and the rest of the lame, triple-A garbage we see these days

>> No.9963961

You guys are retards. You are actually arguing that that all of the artistic components of a game (music, graphics, concept art, packaging, even gameplay may be considered artistic) somehow don't become art when you put them all together.

Just say you hate faggots and find art gay, you don't have to pretend games aren't art.

>> No.9964018

>>9962323
>oriarty concluded that ultimately it was the fact that player choices were presented in games that structurally invalidated the application of the term "art" to video games as the audience's interaction with the work wrests control from the author and thereby negates the expression of art.

What a sad, shallow, and unimaginative worldview.

>> No.9964047
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9964047

>>9962046
Everything you said has no bearing on if video games are art. Comparing super Mario to mona Lisa is one of the worst comparisons I've ever heard. Not all art is high art made by the most talented people of the era. Lots of people dont throw away their games because they like the to experience them over the years, your argument is trash. Like a painting people like to look at and see different things they didn't before, people will play games for the same reason, often talking about the detail and care put into the game for this unique experience. Many games take on experiences that become more than a distraction. Why is the Mona Lisa famous? It's a an above average portrait of the time, there's nothing special about it, it's pop culture at this point. Yet here you are using it against super Mario another pop culture icon. I'd argue that the same people who declare high art are pretentious losers more so than people who enjoy videogames, as the high art "enjoyer" has to suspend their logical criticism of art because they are told to or they are to be ostracized. You really think Picasso's later work is better than his actual portrait work? Imho la orana maria by Gauguin is better than any of Picasso's abstractions, because of the juxtaposition in it's subject matter and actually interesting stylization Gauguin used. You're so fucking ng stupid I can't believe it.

>> No.9964836

>>9961901
I don't understand why this argument is significant

>> No.9964909

Personally I consider art to be expression of creativity, and video games fall under that. Not that I put much stock in whether people if video games are considered art or not.

It does make me wonder.

Can a game by itself be art? Is Chess art? Are theme park rides art because they also provide a unique experience and a form of creativity? No really, do people ask these questions, cause I only ever see it with video games.

>> No.9964929

>>9964836
For a lot of people videogames (mostly 90s era maybe early 2000s) let them experience something that no other medium can really grasp. From graphics to mechanics to narratives to the overall ability for humans to create some of these works of art with limited time and resources. This is countered by others opinion that everything I just said doesn't matter and no matter what argument you make, videogames will never be art. I find this position ridiculous, especially coming from hideo Kohima who takes inspiration from films and movies, you know which is art. He makes his games extremely cinematic and adds convoluted plot points like a writer would do. His games are essentially playable films. Not just that but the attention to detail in games like mgs2 are so sweet and polished it's art by the merit of it's existence.

>> No.9964948

>>9964909
I think a bigger issue is that when "art" is brought up most people immediately start thinking of fine art/high art as the definition in it's whole. Lesser polished works from lesser talented people is still fucking art. Just because they weren't fucking monet or beksinski doesnt mean other people of the time were artists. I. Fact there were tons of mediocre artists doing portraits for hundreds of years. Rollercoasters are art so are videogames, they are actually some of the better unique artforms that has come from the 20th century

>> No.9964951

>>9964948
I redact the 20th century statement I didn't know Russians had them in the 1600s. Still stands for videogames tho

>> No.9964971

agreed. video game is fun but a modern form of entertainment that is reflective of our times. movies are the same. i am a fine artist and im of the opinion the only thing that moves me like art had in the past is seeing my kid grow and make me proud.

>> No.9965220
File: 53 KB, 403x403, 1685953751739216.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9965220

>>9964971
>i am a fine artist
sure you are m8

>> No.9965596

>>9965220
said it to differentiate between digital and physical

>> No.9965679
File: 17 KB, 500x508, thinking.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9965679

>>9961901
Having given this some thought, I think video games can be considered art in the same way cars are considered art. Cars are not "art" in the same way a painting, a book or a movie are "art". The former examples are meant to be observed; you don't really interact with them in any other way. A car is meant to be driven; the way it handles, accelerates, brakes, etc. is critical to the "experience" of driving, but the car can't do anything on its own. The driver's input is necessary for operation and a car can only be truly experienced by being behind the wheel.

Video games are similar to cars in that you're meant to interact with them. Sure, you can watch someone play the game online like some zoom-zoom, but that's not really the same as playing it yourself. Certain feelings the developer meant for the player to experience won't translate through pure observation. Whether that's enjoyment, accomplishment, fear, sadness or anger, the feeling the developer wants to provoke depend on YOU having control over what happens next. So, if a car can be classified as art, then I don't see why a game can't be art too, just not in the same way as "traditional" art.

I know someone is going to ask if bad games are art, like the asset flips you'd find on Steam Early Access. Yes, they're art, in the same way that a kindergartner's drawing is art.

Final thought. I think Ebert's comments absolutely mind-broke the gaming industry and tricked gamers, reviewers and especially developers into thinking that their games need to be more "movie-like". Presentation absolutely matters, but I feel like gameplay is being under-cooked in a lot of these newer games, so you get a decent movie, but a shitty game. Metal Black, a 30-year old arcade shmup, feels more like a "work of art" than a lot of shit coming out today, due to the devs understanding how to have good presentation and gameplay simultaneously. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bB4mS79R0DI

Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

>> No.9965683

Games are just toys. The modern gatekeeping and nonsense around it is just scared people. They are TOYS. thats not a BAD thing. but FUCK man. ITS JUST TOYS. People just build up bizarre inferiority complexes and then start trying to fight nonsense battles

>> No.9965728

>>9961901
Not every game is a movie game created solely to sell millions of copies. Games can be art, they just have to be on the NES.

>> No.9965737

>>9962112
Shakespeare plays were 16th century equivalent of soap opera, peasant pop culture shit.