/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.9947459]

The 32x could do THIS? This is the unoptimized code running on just one SH-2

[Anonymous No.9947465]

if only it hadn't been gay, shit, retarded and poorly-marketed. ah, what could've been...

[Anonymous No.9947543]

post yfw sega rushed this out because they were afraid of the fucking Jaguar

[Anonymous No.9947556]

>>9947543
top kek, that actually is pretty funny when you think about it
>there's gonna be kids out there asking for the Cat console, Bob. we need to get this thing out stat, or we're deader than doormice

[Anonymous No.9947558]

>>9947465
Thanks sega of america! Glad you put all your time and effort and money into this shit nobody wanted.

[Anonymous No.9947909]

>>9947459
Ok this confirms to me that the 32X, when combined with the genesis and sega cd, could do 2.5D games for sure, they would just need devs who really understood how to optimize for it.

[Anonymous No.9947914]

>>9947459
If it can do that, it might run breath of fire 3

[Anonymous No.9947927]

>>9947459
If it can do that, and also after seeing how good the symphony of the Night homebrew for genesis is, then it could for sure do symphony of the night on 32X

[Anonymous No.9947935]

I'll bet it could run the 32 bit version of final Fantasy 4

[Anonymous No.9947941]

32X handle 3D environments
Genesis handles character sprites
Maybe use the CD for some spell animations

[Anonymous No.9947946]

I wonder if it could run Grandia

[Anonymous No.9947949]

i own a 32x but i cant get it working at all. cleaned the ribbon cables did everything i could. nothing. Just get to the Sega LTD screen and nothing after

[Anonymous No.9947951]

[Anonymous No.9947952]

>>9947927
Tiger game.com can do SOTN.

[Anonymous No.9947992]

>>9947459
>The 32x could do THIS?
Yes, this was well known since forever, it could do something comparable in '95.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vySOZUcOdng

[Anonymous No.9948021]

32X was our future. Sadly, Sega fucked up and decided to kill it in favour of the Shiturn, thus dooming the company into insolvency.

[Anonymous No.9948036]

>>9947927
32x is actually pretty bad at 2d. People generally expect 2d to run at 60fps so 2d games on the 32x had the genesis vdp do most of the work. Mixing the 32x framebuffer with the genesis graphics does not work that well because it does not have properly layering. The 32x sprites are entirely ontop of all the genesis graphics which is not ideal.

[Anonymous No.9948067]

>>9948021
32X should definitely have been better handled as a Saturn alternative for the US for a few years. I feel like if they put actual effort into their games for it, it could have been a cheaper alternative to the PS1 until atleast final fantasy 7 changed the game and pseudo 3D would no longer be accepted. Throw in a budget Neptune for those who dont already have a genesis and push the huge back catalog available. Maybe also make the nomad their game gear replacement and keep making new 16bit games for it. Hopefully by then, they could have had a better library and marketing strat for the Saturn ready for the states or just try and push through to 98 for the Dreamcast. They'd probably still be fucked, but could have seen some more neat shit atleast. I think atleast in US, the genesis faithful would have been more willing to stick by sega instead of expecting them fully on board the saturn train.

[Anonymous No.9948074]

>>9948036
30fps is fine for any turn based game.

[Anonymous No.9948151]

>>9947951

[Anonymous No.9948321]

>>9947459
Is pretty cool what people have been doing with Sega consoles recently.

[Anonymous No.9948349]

>>9947909
>>9947941
Regular Genesis had plenty of isometric games. Sonic 3D Blast, LandStalker, and Light Crusader come to mind. 32X also had Zaxxon's Motherbase 2000. They would only need the CD for FMV and CD audio stuff.

>>9948021
>>9948067
It's interesting that SEGA CD and 32X have been treated like the villains for years, but now people are realizing that they were both closer to a proper Genesis successor than the Saturn was. The platformer selection on SEGA CD really blows it out of the water among a few other key aspects. 32X was obviously cut short but had it lived longer we could've seen Sonic Mars, Ecco 3, Vectorman 3, and maybe even Fighting Force which would've been our 3D Streets of Rage. Heck we could've even gotten Ristar 2 or something on it

[Anonymous No.9948395]

>>9948349
>It's interesting that SEGA CD and 32X have been treated like the villains for years, but now people are realizing that they were both closer to a proper Genesis successor than the Saturn was.

Why do people keep believing this nonsense? You'd basically get a sega Jaguar type of hardware that has to go up against the ps1 and n64. Good luck with that

[Anonymous No.9948408]

>>9948395
The SEGA CD was going up against the 3DO more than anything. It's interesting that you bring up N64 as it also used cartridges and lacked FMV and CD audio. As much as I hate to admit it, if SEGA had just waited another year for the Saturn like Nintendo did, they may have been able to stay afloat. I still personally prefer the Saturn over the N64, but the Genesis was still way more popular in the west by 1995.

It's not like Saturn itself was some huge leap over the 32X either when you think about it. Virtua Racing and Virtua Fighter 1 are both better on 32X, and OpenLara proves they probably could've pumped out an actual proper 3D Sonic game on it.

[Anonymous No.9948413]

>>9947459
Using both sh2 will be difficult not not gain you much. Not easy to parallize the rendering part. Also indicating by the guy hinself on twitter.
It barely goes to 10fps in the narrow corridor, outside in bigger rooms it drops to 5fps or lower.
All the optimizations in the world wont make this run at acceptable levels.

The 32x is shit as a 5th gen competitor.

[Anonymous No.9948451]

>>9948151
Which one is which?

[Anonymous No.9948476]

>>9948408
>It's not like Saturn itself was some huge leap over the 32X either when you think about it.

To get a better feeling if the power doffernce you are better off comparing 32x virtua racing vs daytona cce or sega rally. Massive gap.

(And yes, sega should have delayed the launch of the saturn)

[Anonymous No.9948478]

>>9948408
Sega cd we going up against the pc engine cd

[Anonymous No.9948546]

>>9948476
32x virtual racing is better than Daytona cce.

[Anonymous No.9948551]

>>9948413
>32x is shit
Then why was mortal Kombat 2 on 32x better than PlayStations version?

[Anonymous No.9948556]

>>9948395
Gameboy was much weaker than all its competiton yet smashed them. All the 32x needed was some support and a Sonic game.

[Anonymous No.9948585]

>>9948546
Gameplay wise yes, graphically not.
20fps vs 30
Actually fully texture mapped polygons vs flat shaded
Etc.
This is a hardware power thread, gameplay is irrelevant for this discussion (and besides sega rally mocks them both)

>>9948551
Really? Thats your best example to prove the superiority of the 32x?

[Anonymous No.9948630]

>>9948546
Nah.
Virtual Racing isn't a good game, at all.

[Anonymous No.9948691]

Kalinske was right

[Anonymous No.9948703]

>>9947992
>that resolution
>that fps
>that transparency
>that texture quality
>only evidence is the same shitty vhs rip
I will never be convinced this is actually running on the 32x.

[Anonymous No.9948710]

>>9948630
Nigger.

[Anonymous No.9948718]

>>9948349
The 32x was not cut short, it flopped and rightfully so, if Sega wanted something in between the Saturn then it should have been a Sega Genesis with the CD and the Sega Virtua Processor built in with games that actually took advantage these hardware underused hardware, they didn't need 32 bits of power they just needed a similar boost that the FX chip provided the SNES.

[Anonymous No.9948761]

>>9948478
I guess it was a little of both

>>9948718
They did that, minus the Virtua Processor bit.

[Anonymous No.9948797]

>>9948408
>Virtua Racing and Virtua Fighter 1 are both better on 32X
The rushed to launch versions but that also reinforces that really shouldn't have rushed the Saturn, it's said to see how much Nintendo supported the SNES right up to the N64's launch while SoJ and even SoA abandon the Genesis.
>>9948761
Not only is it missing the SVP but also the whole "games that take advantage of the hardware" part.

[Anonymous No.9948809]

>>9947459
Can you imagine how much money Sega wasted developing and manufacturing this piece of shit

I can't imagine 2 SH-2s per console along with all the other chips they needed was very cheap.

[Anonymous No.9948825]

>>9947543
I read this the other day. In hindsight it sounds completely ridiculous but Atari seemed like a big player back then. They should have been mostly scared for huge companies like Sony and Microsoft entering the console hardware market.

[Anonymous No.9948864]

>>9948825
Atari wasn't big, but they had prior experience on this field (atari st, lynx and older consoles)
So they hyped the shit out of the jaguar which made it look like they might have a fair shot at the market.
We all know now that the jaguar was a joke on a hardware level and the software was equally bad.

Sony in comparison was completely new to the console market, they had a lot to prove.

Microsoft wasn't a thing back then.

[Anonymous No.9948989]

>>9947543
This isn't the entire story though. What started it was Sega of America being completely against the Saturn and wanting to stick with the Genesis. Sega of Japan then offered them a beefed up Genesis because they had to have something to go against the new systems coming out (This is where that Atari Jaguar phone call story happens.) and Sega of America countered that with the 32X.

It basically came about from Sega of America reading the market wrong and thinking the Genesis would still keep selling like it was 1992 while completely ignoring the imploding 16-bit market around them. The better idea in hindsight would have been to just get Sega of America on board with the Saturn early on so the resources that got wasted on the 32X could instead go into the Saturn.

[Anonymous No.9949008]

>>9948036
It depends on the game and if you're smart about it you'll be in good shape. The Genesis can do the backgrounds of a fighting game, for example, and leave the 32X for everything else. It means you're stuck with the shittier Genesis palette but since it isn't bothering with sprites it can devote the entire 64 colors to the one layer it is responsible for, which would look mighty fine in practice. MKII isn't the best example because it's just a rushed touch up to the original Genesis version but it's proof of concept at least. With a good amount of TLC the 32X could have been a great platform for CPS2 and Neo Geo games.

[Anonymous No.9949031]

>>9948989
To be fair to SOA, the Genesis WAS in a better position to last a bit longer in the west. I think the assumption that they were trying to keep it the primary system until the Dreamcast is a bit of an exaggeration. They just didn't want to pull the plug cold turkey, which is not unreasonable. Nintendo kept supporting the SNES to some extent even after the N64 came out. Meanwhile SOJ wanted to effectively shitcan the entire thing and bet 100% on Saturn. Which from SOJ's perspective was ALSO reasonable since the Mega Drive really was dead in the water in Japan. The different market situations on either side of the Pacific meant it was impossible for a singular worldwide business model to work across the board. Someone was going to have to settle. It resulted in a lot of bizarre compromises and poor timing choices with the 32X and US Saturn launch.

[Anonymous No.9949035]

>>9948989
>The better idea in hindsight would have been to just get Sega of America on board with the Saturn early on so the resources that got wasted on the 32X could instead go into the Saturn.
Nah, the best thing would've been going with Kalinske's suggestion to use SGI's hardware so Sega could've had the best at-home 3D capability at the same.

Saturn was trash hardware, even if SoA had been on board with it it would've still gotten btfo by the PSX and N64's far superior advantage at 3D and had to be killed early for the DC.

[Anonymous No.9949039]

>>9949031
Sega of America could have backed the Saturn and still had a proper phasing out strategy for the Genesis by transitioning to a legacy platform. But instead they were adamantly against the Saturn and unable to move on from the Genesis which is what lead to the odd choices being made with the 32X and the Saturn.

As for the SNES sticking around for a while, people tend to forget that part of that was becuase the N64 was delayed a year or so due to SGI not being able to meet demand. If Nintendo had it their way they would have released the N64 in 1995.

[Anonymous No.9949048]

>>9949035
>Nah, the best thing would've been going with Kalinske's suggestion to use SGI's hardware so Sega could've had the best at-home 3D capability at the same.
The SGI chipset that Sega was shown and what got put in the N64 were most likely 2 different things. By the time this was being shown to Sega the Saturn's design was almost finalized and games were already being developed. It was too late to switch to it and Sega of Japan had concerns about SGI being able to meet demand for their 1994 Japanese Launch. Which as we saw with the N64, they were right to be concerned about it. The N64 was delayed for over a year because SGI couldn't meet demand.

>Saturn was trash hardware
The Saturn's hardware is more that capable of being competitive for that generation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpcjkDDLoXM

[Anonymous No.9949054]

>>9949035
Saturn wasn't "trash" hardware. It was 1993 hardware and was perfectly competent for when it would have been in principal engineering. It was arguably ahead of it's time even. But the lightning fast technological evolution of the mid-90s ended up causing Sega problems. They couldn't scrap the entire thing and start over when they needed more horsepower. But adding a second Hitachi meant a price hike that wasn't easily brought down since the thing had too many components that couldn't be consolidated. Sega's problem was that it NEEDED to get the Saturn out ASAP since in Japan the Mega Drive was toast and it's killer app Virtua Fighter was trapped in the arcade. They needed to get a new system out that could play VF because that's what everyone in Japan wanted. And they were right because the Saturn sold like crazy out of the gate solely because of that one game.

One alternative would be if they left the Saturn to cook for a bit and aimed for a fall 1995 launch and then used the 32X as the stop gap worldwide. Release the Neptune alongside the separate add-on and use both Virtua Fighter and (a much more competent port of) Doom as the killer apps on either side of the world. Let it do the heavy lifting for a year and a half or so and then launch the Saturn in fall '95 with Virtua Fighter 2 as the pack-in. Ideally that buffer would have put SOA and SOJ in sync.

[Anonymous No.9949073]

SoA had their chance to extend the 16bit era with the Sega CD. They had their faster CPU with mode 7 effects on steroids a fuck ton of more ram and storage space..tm
They bungled it, sorry the end.

[Anonymous No.9949086]

>>9949039
I really don't buy that SOA would have been against the Saturn on such a conceptual level. They obviously would have known that they needed a next gen system. They may not have liked the Saturn in other ways but I can't believe that they'd take the position that they don't need something next gen AT ALL. They knew the PS1 and N64 existed and were on the way. The 3DO was already out and while it struggled it was relatively stable for a little bit and showcasing games the Genesis would shit itself attempting. All the statements suggesting that SOA wanted to keep the Genesis as the primary console until the 21st century all come from people with an axe to grind.

[Anonymous No.9949089]

>>9949054
The main cost issue in the Saturn was the RAM. Contrary to popular opinion the PS1 was also expensive to produce in 1994 because of the amount of RAM it had. Both these systems had about 4-4.5MB of RAM in them and cost about $500+ to produce. RAM prices at this time were stupid high at around $40-$50/MB. But those prices fell rapidly in the next few years with them being down to under $5/MB by the end of 1996. Which is why both Sony and Sega were able to drop the price of their consoles down to $199 by mid 1996. About $200 worth of the production cost went away due to falling RAM prices alone.

Honestly probably the best and most realistic alternative for Sega to have done would be to axe the 32X when it was still a napkin scribble, get Sega of America on board working on games for a Fall of 1995 launch, and use whatever Hardware R&D resources that were put into the 32X into maybe polishing up VDP1 (add texture coordinates, fix up the transparency problems, try to improve fillrate, etc.). Saturn could then launch in fall of 1995 in the US with Virtua Fighter Remix, Doom, Star Wars Arcade, Chaotix, Stellar Assault, Panzer Dragoon, a more polished Daytona USA, etc.

[Anonymous No.9949090]

>>9949039
>As for the SNES sticking around for a while, people tend to forget that part of that was becuase the N64 was delayed a year or so due to SGI not being able to meet demand. If Nintendo had it their way they would have released the N64 in 1995.
Even so, Nintendo was putting resources into some pretty major titles for the SNES before and after the N64 release. Mario RPG and DKC 3 were both 1996, and Kirby 3 was 1997.

[Anonymous No.9949098]

>>9949039
>
As for the SNES sticking around for a while, people tend to forget that part of that was becuase the N64 was delayed a year or so due to SGI not being able to meet demand. If Nintendo had it their way they would have released the N64 in 1995.
The N64 had it's own "32X" in the Virtual Boy. That was really meant to be the stop gap to cover the N64 delay. But Nintendo was always better at maneuvering around it's missteps to the point that people don't hold the VB against them the way they do the 32X against Sega.

[Anonymous No.9949102]

>>9949086
>I really don't buy that SOA would have been against the Saturn on such a conceptual level.
They were against it from a cost perspective. They felt anything over $200 was too expensive and wouldn't sell. So anything they saw that cost more than $200 they were deeming to not be a threat and convincing the Japanese side that this was the case.

[Anonymous No.9949108]

>>9949089
RAM prices were a big factor, true. The N64 used a unified RDRAM architecture specifically as a cost compromise. But the many different chips did Sega no favors. In the long term, it's number of components, not how powerful they are, that keeps prices high. The Saturn was never in a position where it could undercut the PS1 and certainly not the comparatively very affordable N64. It basically had to be in liquidation mode before it became genuinely competitive.

[Anonymous No.9949125]

>>9949090
>Nintendo was putting resources into some pretty major titles for the SNES before and after the N64 release
Because they pretty much had no other choice. The N64 didn't release until mid to late 1996. They needed to put out something in that time frame so they focused on SNES stuff. After the N64 came out most of the SNES first party releases pretty much dried up save for the few that were already in development and near completion.
>>9949108
> But the many different chips did Sega no favors. The Saturn was never in a position where it could undercut the PS1 and certainly not the comparatively very affordable N64. It basically had to be in liquidation mode before it became genuinely competitive.
On release in 1994, the Saturn cost about 54,800 Yen to produce, the PS1 cost about 50,000 Yen to produce. The cost difference isn't nearly as big as people make it out to be. Both systems were sold at a ~$100 loss at launch. And Sega showed through the next few years that they could in fact consolidate the design down and use less chips to save cost. Just going from a VA0 Saturn to a VA1 Saturn shows a dramatic reduction in complexity and number of parts.

[Anonymous No.9949128]

>>9949089
>Honestly probably the best and most realistic alternative for Sega to have done would be to axe the 32X when it was still a napkin scribble, get Sega of America on board working on games for a Fall of 1995 launch, and use whatever Hardware R&D resources that were put into the 32X into maybe polishing up VDP1 (add texture coordinates, fix up the transparency problems, try to improve fillrate, etc.). Saturn could then launch in fall of 1995 in the US with Virtua Fighter Remix, Doom, Star Wars Arcade, Chaotix, Stellar Assault, Panzer Dragoon, a more polished Daytona USA, etc.
That wouldn't happen because it means Sega would have had effectively zero presence in the Japanese console market for two years while waited. That was the big reason there was conflict between the two regions. Sega needed a console in Japan. The Mega Drive was finished over there. The 32X may have been able to revive it if that was the platform that got Virtua Fighter exclusivity but that means going forward with the 32X rather than scrapping it when it was a napkin scribble.

[Anonymous No.9949135]

>>9949125
>The cost difference isn't nearly as big as people make it out to be.
It is when they're in direct competition and one is even mildly cheaper than the other. And over time the PS1's price dropped precipitously. The Saturn needed to undercut it, especially since when going punch for punch it wasn't outpacing the PS1 on software. Remember that the Saturn beat the PS1 to market and STILL was more expensive when the PS1 came out. That's a problem.

[Anonymous No.9949139]

>>9949128
>That wouldn't happen because it means Sega would have had effectively zero presence in the Japanese console market for two years while waited
They would still release Saturn in Japan in 1994. Remember 32X design started in January of 1994 and was on store shelves by November of 1994. Put those resources into the Saturn instead is all I'm saying.

In this scenario whatever Hardware R&D that went into 32X instead goes into Saturn to try and polish up some of the rough spots (VDP1 being the big one). Software made for the 32X instead gets put on the Saturn or Genesis/Sega CD depending on which is the better fit. Saturn still launches in November of 1994 with at most a better VDP1, and a few more launch titles from the 32X (Stellar Assault, Virtua Racing Deluxe, etc.). Sega of America is instead focusing on getting good western software ready for a fall of 1995 Launch and getting good devkits and resources into the hands fo developers.

[Anonymous No.9949141]

>>9949125
>Because they pretty much had no other choice. The N64 didn't release until mid to late 1996. They needed to put out something in that time frame so they focused on SNES stuff. After the N64 came out most of the SNES first party releases pretty much dried up save for the few that were already in development and near completion.
Ok, but why does this work for Nintendo but couldn't work for the Genesis/32X? Nintendo straight up changed which console got Killer Instinct because of the N64's delay and yet it felt completely smooth on the consumer side. Nobody really batted an eye despite the game being a massive downgrade from the arcade. It was still a hit. Delay the Saturn and put shittier versions of Panzer Dragoon and Bug! on 32X and you'd have a matching scenario.

[Anonymous No.9949153]

>>9949139
That's just not realistic from a logistics standpoint though. This isn't the 1980s where the Famicom could exist in Japan for a couple of years before appearing on western shores. Having the Saturn available and doing brisk business in Japan while Americans sit and wait would have caused retailers to flip their shit because A) imports would have become way more likely, and B) Genesis sales would still have tanked because nobody in their right mind would buy the "old" system and games when they know the new one is coming. They'd have just saved up and/or bought a competitor's product. The world was too unified by then to be that out of sync region to region.

[Anonymous No.9949159]

>>9949135
>And over time the PS1's price dropped precipitously.
As did Saturn's due to falling RAM prices. Look at historical RAM prices and then look at the price drops for the Saturn and PS1. They align almost perfectly. In many cases the Saturn hit the lower price points first in Japan and PS1 was playing catch up. When the Model 2 came out in March of 1996 Sega priced it at 20,000 Yen and kept it there for the remainder of it's time on the market while still making cost reduction revisions to the board. PS1 wouldn't hit a similar price point until about June of 1996 and wouldn't do another significant price cut for over a year and a half.

[Anonymous No.9949162]

>>9949141
>Ok, but why does this work for Nintendo but couldn't work for the Genesis/32X?
Because the 32X was dead on arrival and no one bought it. And that's not factoring in the wasted money and resources dumped into the developing the platform.
>>9949153
>The world was too unified by then to be that out of sync region to region.
It worked fine for the PS1, PS2, and Dreamcast.

[Anonymous No.9949163]

>>9949159
You're missing the point though. It's not an issue of the Saturn's absolute price point: it's the Saturn's price point in comparison to the PS1's at the same time. The Saturn was the older machine, had less software, and still cost more for the unit itself. It needed to undercut the PS1 and it never did until it was ready to be liquidated at which point it was probably retailers left as the ones eating shit.

[Anonymous No.9949182]

>>9949162
>Because the 32X was dead on arrival and no one bought it.
They would have if it's where VF launched at home. Nobody was buying Saturns in Japan because they just loved Sega so much. They bought Saturrns because they loved Virtua Fighter. If that game were a Jaguar exclusive we'd be hearing about how amazing Jaguar sales were in Japan in 1994.

[Anonymous No.9949239]

>>9949163
>it's the Saturn's price point in comparison to the PS1's at the same time
In many cases the Saturn is the one hitting the lower price points first. In June of 1995 Saturn drops 10,000 Yen off it's price point due to falling RAM prices and the VA1 revision. In July PS1 does the same. In March of 1996 Saturn drops to 20,000 Yen with the Model 2 release, PS1 drops to 24,800 Yen about a week later. Then in June of 1996 PS1 drops to 19,800 to match Saturn. Both stay at these prices for over a year and half with Saturn eventually ending production in late 1997 and PS1 dropping to 18,000 Yen in November of 1997. During this time though Sega did keep making cost reductions to the Saturn to the point where they did actually start making money on the hardware.

The point is, Saturn's production cost isn't as big of a factor as people try to make it out to be. Sega was getting an extremely good deal from Hitachi on the SH2s and the other chips they were providing for the system to the point where Hitachi wasn't even making money on the deal.

>The Saturn was the older machine
They launched within a week and a half of each other, how is this even something to try and make an argument out of?

>>9949182
>They would have if it's where VF launched at home.
And to have Virtua Fighter ready for the 32X by launch isn't realistic. The platform as a whole was far too rushed and it's honestly amazing it got what games it did get by launch. The 32X was aimed at the western market and launched there in November 1994. And even with software catering to the western market, it flopped. No one wanted the damn thing. Even with Virtua Fighter as a launch title in Japan it wouldn't have sold well because the Mega Drive install base was pathetically small there. There's no realistic scenario where having both the 32X and the Saturn existing has Sega come out doing well. Hell I'd argue there's no realistic scenario where the 32X actually succeeds.

[Anonymous No.9949267]

>>9949089
> add texture coordinates
> fix up the transparency problems
The ass backwards way VDP1 rendered polygons really was not fixable.

[Anonymous No.9949287]

>>9949267
>The ass backwards way VDP1 rendered polygons really was not fixable.
It's actually not that far off from being fixable. Gouraud Shading already does additive blending just fine, but it can only be used for Gouraud shading. So if that feature could be expanded to also work for transparencies that would give you decent additive blending effects. Throw in a buffer to keep track of what pixels have already been drawn for a draw command and you pretty much fix the overdraw issue.

For texture coordinates you can already do it in a limited capacity with an untextured command and gouraud shading. You load a small texture into CRAM and use the RGB shading values for your coordinates. So if that concept could be expanded upon and allow it to work from data in VRAM, you could probably get texture coordinates pretty easily.

[Anonymous No.9949358]

>>9949239
With the price thing Sega was always on it's heels because it couldn't absorb losses the way Sony could. Maybe my timing is off about the day and date of which console saw price drops first but Sony would just casually bring the PS1 down like it was nothing. It was probably the first time when a console was sold at a loss as a specific business strategy. Sega didn't have that kind of financial insulation to last in that kind of environment. They were flanked by the PS1, which Sony could have afforded any and all price drops, and the N64, which was inherently less expensive being that there were no expensive CD mechanisms as well as being extremely consolidated out of the gate. The Saturn was caught between two competitors who were just plain better off. What advantage exactly did the Saturn hold over the other two in that regard? It was always in the weakest position.

>And to have Virtua Fighter ready for the 32X by launch isn't realistic.
I don't think so. The way the 32X had launched in reality? Sure, it's true that VF for it was something of an afterthought. They weren't prepared to have VF ready for it at launch. But could they have had it ready if they planned it that way? I don't see why not. There were no technical barriers. It was just a matter of logistics. The Saturn's port of VF was itself a rush job and arguably worse than the 32X version because of it. With a bit of planning they wouldn't have done it in that order and may have been better off for it.

[Anonymous No.9949373]

>>9949358
Also, the Mega Drive was pretty cheap by 1994. The way to handle the adoption issue in Japan is to pull a Turbo CD/Turbo Duo gimmick. Launch the 32X day and date with the Neptune. The Genesis portion of the hardware would have been like $50 by then so you hit all corners. People with Mega Drives can buy a 32X for Virtua Fighter. People without Mega Drives can buy a Neptune for it. Which given VF's popularity, they happily would have. If this happens with the Saturn is pushed to a year or year and a half away, that builds in enough of a buffer where it doesn't feel like as much of a stop gap even though it would effectively be that from Sega's perspective.

[Anonymous No.9949445]

>>9949073
SoA and SoJ will forever be guilty of not using the full power of the CD besides Sonic CD, they both just slapped Genesis titles on it and give them redbook audio.

[Anonymous No.9949447]

>>9948703
Some of those demos became games eventually.

AMOK was being made for the 32x and Saturn, but the 32x version was cancelled.

[Anonymous No.9949454]

>>9948585
>really?
PlayStation mortal Kombat 2 would load mid match while 32x was silky smooth. Seems your powerful hardware doesn't always stack up.
>>9948630
Not my favourite racer either but it's clearly better than Daytona cce.

[Anonymous No.9949464]

>>9949239
>The platform as a whole was far too rushed and it's honestly amazing it got what games it did get by launch.
Paradoxical as it may seem, I think this fact is a point in favor of the 32X rather than against it. Even with everything working against it and Sega of Japan being openly antagonistic to the idea, it still managed to have 30+ games, some of which are pretty solid. Under better conditions it stands to reason the library would also look much better.

[Anonymous No.9949494]

>>9949445
>>9949445
SoJ made actual games for the MEGA CD and one of the goals was to get RPGs onto a sega platform.
Problem was the JP MD userbase consisted of merely 3.5 million units.
SoA on the other hand threw millions on Marky Mark, INXS and Kris Kross.

[Anonymous No.9949508]

>>9947558
It's been long since known that most of the bad decisions came from Sega of Japan, not just 32x but also Saturn, Dreamcast, even arcade deals after they went multiplatform. What isn't confirmed is why they kept pushing the US branch to doing these things.

[Anonymous No.9949510]

The Sega CD was handicapped by the Genesis's architecture. Sega simply wasn't planning add-ons like that when they designed the thing. The expansion port was meant for a floppy drive. Ideally they would have made the Sega CD more like the 32X in concept and found a way to give it a new VDP that could push more colors rather than be hamstrung by the base palette, which as the generation pressed on was the system's Achilles' Heel. So many magazine screenshots of Sega CD games barely looked better than cartridge games and looked worse than SNES ones.

[Anonymous No.9949515]

>SoA revisionist cultists trying to pin the 32X on SoJ
The 32X was SoA wet dream

[Anonymous No.9949547]

>>9949515
That's true but it's indicative of the problem when two branches of the same company are that much out of sync. They shouldn't have been playing favorites like that. Regardless of what comes out and when, both sides needed to stick together. When the 32X came out SoJ should have had a "well, it wasn't our plan but let's help it succeed" instead of "fuck that, let it burn."

[Anonymous No.9949562]

>>9949547
>>9949547
The 32X should have never happened even if they wasted money on R&D they should have canned it and repurposed the hardware for some C grade discount Mahjong game arcade board.

[Anonymous No.9949576]

>>9947909
>Ok this confirms to me that the 32X, when combined with the genesis and sega cd, could do 2.5D games for sure, they would just need devs who really understood how to optimize for it.

it literally did 3D games like Virtua Fighter 1...
Saturn had way more processing power though.

>>9948408
>>9948556
Good games make money. Nintendo was right all along. all the tech spec dickwaving didn't do shit to save Sega... or Xbox later on.

[Anonymous No.9949595]

>>9949125
>On release in 1994, the Saturn cost about 54,800 Yen to produce, the PS1 cost about 50,000 Yen to produce. The cost difference isn't nearly as big as people make it out to be. Both systems were sold at a ~$100 loss at launch.

Sony was a big oldboys club that can swallow that loss. Sega was a much smaller corpo.

[Anonymous No.9949606]

>>9949515
32X was SoA's mistake, perhaps, but Saturn was SoJ's. The American branch was right that Saturn would fail because of how costly it was to manufacture as well as how difficult it was to develop for. It's like Sega just wanted to drive people away to the Playstation. If there were no Saturn, there would be no 32X, therefore the Japs are still to blame. If Sega had kept riding on the Genesis and used carts with embedded chips like the SNES was doing until Sega were ready to launch a system that actually had smart design and could do 3D as well as the other 5th gen systems, and could therefore live through all of 5th gen instead of having to be killed halfway for the Dreamcast to get rushed out and pick up the slack, then Sega would've never crashed and burned.

[Anonymous No.9949631]

>>9947543
Homie, it had Sherlock Holmes.

[Anonymous No.9949654]

Sony just had the Saturn beat or rather Sega had beat themselves, making games on the Saturn was hard and Sony had prioritized easy to use devs tools for the PS1, they went to all the publishers who had put up with Nintendo's shit for years and wined and dined them, Capcom, Konami and Namco and would all eventually use PS1 hardware in their arcade boards while Sega struggled to port Model 2 games to the Saturn.

[Anonymous No.9949657]

>>9949576
Xbox is only dead in your brand-warrior fantasies.

[Anonymous No.9949669]

>>9949606
>If Sega had kept riding on the Genesis and used carts with embedded chips like the SNES was doing
It wasn't that simple because the needs of the SNES were very different from the needs of the Genesis. Most of the SNES enhancement chips existed to do some of the heavy lifting since the SNES's CPU was feeble even by the standards of it's day. Nintendo rightly figured they could keep costs low by skimping on the horsepower because that could be offloaded cart-side. The Genesis wasn't really hurting for raw processing. A lot of the things it did struggle with, like it's tiny color palette, wasn't easily adapted to cartridge. A hypothetical cartridge with a VDP inside would need it's own video out ala 32X. By the time Sega got around to the SVP it was so stupid expensive that Virtua Racing was a nearly $100 game.

[Anonymous No.9949694]

>>9947459
Tomb Raider on GBA is more impressive

[Anonymous No.9949698]

>>9948074
30fps is never fine

[Anonymous No.9949706]

>>9948067
No, the 32X was a bomb because it was an add-on for the Genesis which meant you had to have a Genesis to use it.
It would have never been a cheaper alternative to the PSX.

[Anonymous No.9949715]

>>9948989
Sega of America was a fucking disaster

[Anonymous No.9949738]

>>9949048
>>9949054
It was a designed to be a 2D powerhouse when gaming was moving to 3D
The hardware was tone-deaf, especially considering that in the Arcade Sega were pioneers in 3D

[Anonymous No.9949746]

>>9949698
There's nothing wrong with 30fps or even slowdown.

[Anonymous No.9949801]

>>9949738
Can we stop parroting this myth already? The Saturn was always meant to do 3D. Sega's own arcade division was pioneering 3D. You really think they'd deliberately design a system that couldn't do Virtua Fighter?

[Anonymous No.9949807]

>>9949801
*Like you said,

[Anonymous No.9949890]

>>9949445
>Sonic CD
What are you talking about?
Sonic CD barely made usage of the Sega CD's capabilities at all.
That game had more slowdown than the actual Genesis Sonic games
It was so poorly programmed

[Anonymous No.9949892]

>>9949086
They wanted the SGI chip for the Saturn
They also were too afraid to abandon support for the Genesis

[Anonymous No.9949898]

>>9949358
> It was probably the first time when a console was sold at a loss as a specific business strategy.
The Genesis was originally sold at a loss when it released. It wasn't until late in the 16-bit generation that Sega was able to not lose money on the Genesis hardware.
>What advantage exactly did the Saturn hold over the other two in that regard?
We saw what was going to happen in that area with the last few revisions. The SH2-s got consolidated into 1 chip. The SCSP and 68k became one chip, the CD-ROM block as well. Probably the next thing to be consolidated would be VDP1 and VDP2. CD-ROM drives also changed with revisions and cheaper ones were being used as time went on.

>But could they have had it ready if they planned it that way?
There's not really any way to make it work. 32X went from a napkin scribble to on store shelves in under 10 months in 1994. It was an all hands on deck effort to get stuff out and even then a lot of games missed the launch window. During this time AM2 was busy with the Saturn port of Virtua Fighter as well as the Arcade version of Virtua Fighter 2. And trying to make the 32X project start earlier or without the Saturn doesn't work either because the 32X hardware is directly inspired by the Saturn's hardware. The Saturn and 32X both use the same dual SH-2 CPUs. Without the Saturn, there is literally no SH-2 and no 32X.
>>9949373
>The way to handle the adoption issue in Japan is to pull a Turbo CD/Turbo Duo gimmick.
That only worked because the PC-Engine actually sold well to begin with, and CDs became the main form of distribution for games. With the 32X you have it attached to a console that isn't selling, on a more expensive form of media (cartridges).

[Anonymous No.9949908]

>>9949464
Yes, it's impressive that in 10 months they went from Napkin scribble to a system on store shelves that works fairly well with some decent games. But imagine if that effort went into the Saturn instead?
>Even with everything working against it and Sega of Japan being openly antagonistic to the idea
But that's just it, Sega of Japan wasn't antagonistic to the idea. They supported it and did everything they could to try and help make it a success going as far as to shift Saturn projects over to the 32X to help beef up it's line up.

>>9949738
The Saturn was designed to do 3D from the start. This was confirmed by Hideki Sato, the man that designed the thing. It's why there's 2 SH-2s, why there's a DSP in the SCU, why VDP1 is there, etc.

>>9949606
Sega of America's mistake did far more damage than Sega of Japans. And the 32X is arguably more difficult to develop for than the Saturn, especially if you try to use the Genesis and Sega CD hardware with it.

[Anonymous No.9949940]

>>9949706
It would have been for the huge playerbase who already had a Genesis. As well as an eventual Neptune release for those who didn't have a Genesis, but were offered a cheaper system with a large back catalog of games already available. It probably would have only lasted until 97/98 when 3D really took off for the majority who wanted a games machine and a backwards compatible Saturn probably would have also been a possible band aid. Whole point is to keep that player base still interested in the hardware and games they invested in and offer a cheaper solution to a fully priced next gen machine. Obviously the games needed to be decent for it to have worked. 32X wasn't all that different in practice to the N64s expansion pack.

[Anonymous No.9949953]

>>9949940
>Whole point is to keep that player base still interested in the hardware and games they invested in and offer a cheaper solution to a fully priced next gen machine.
The problem was that consumers didn't want that cheaper solution. They wanted the fully priced next gen machine like the PS1, N64, and the Saturn.
> 32X wasn't all that different in practice to the N64s expansion pack.
The Expansion Pak was $50 and came bundled with games that required it for less than that. 32X was $150. The Expansion Pak has more in common with the Saturn's RAM and ROM carts than it does with the 32X.

[Anonymous No.9950014]

>>9949141
>Delay the Saturn and put shittier versions of Panzer Dragoon and Bug! on 32X and you'd have a matching scenario.
No you fucking wouldn't because nobody was buyig a 32X for fucking Bug
Panzer Dragoon probably wouldn't have worked on Genesis at all with/without the 32X
Bug might have worked on the Genesis if downgraded and if it used the SVP chip

But anyways, the 32X was overpriced nonsense so stop even talking about it

[Anonymous No.9950087]

>>9950014
>but might have worked on genesis
There's no way and I love hyping up the Mega drive. It would be a jank unplayable shoot em up like star fox on snes.

[Anonymous No.9950102]

>>9948074
>>9948151
SNES?

[Anonymous No.9950170]

>>9947949
Did you try a different power supply?

[Anonymous No.9950187]

>>9950014
>No you fucking wouldn't because nobody was buyig a 32X for fucking Bug
I guess can't argue with that. Nobody was buying a Saturn for it, either.

[Anonymous No.9950204]

>>9950087
I said Bug might have worked onn the Genesis not Panzer Dragoon
Learn how to read

[Anonymous No.9950205]

>>9949940
>32X wasn't all that different in practice to the N64s expansion pack.
You have to be joking now

[Anonymous No.9950231]

>>9949494
>SoA on the other hand threw millions on Marky Mark, INXS and Kris Kross.
And The Terminator and Road Rash and Earthworm Jim. Oh wait, those are good too

>>9949738
The Genesis was a 2D powerhouse. The Saturn was designed for games like Virtua Fighter and Daytona USA.

>>9949801
I think it's coming from the people who think Saturn is for shmups while ignoring the actual first party games on it. Imo the shmups aren't even that good, never mind that most of them are on PS1.

[Anonymous No.9950237]

>>9949508
Its been long since known that you're a retard and everything you've been told is made up bullshit

[Anonymous No.9950260]

>>9950205
>add-on required for specific higher performance games
No?

[Anonymous No.9950292]

>>9950260
Saturn expansion pack is probably closer, but you make an interesting point. As an expansion pack the 32X doesn't seem nearly as bad. Realistically though it should've gotten at least as many games as the SEGA CD, or like... half lol

[Anonymous No.9950301]

>>9950292
For this to be an accurate comparison the 32X would have to be an optional $50 or less enhancement and bundled with games that required it. That's not the case because it's an add-on that was marketed as it's own separate platform.

[Anonymous No.9950332]

>>9950292
The 32X was discontinued within a year, so that's why it didn't have a long life. The market wasn't into it.

[Anonymous No.9950334]

>>9947459
>Run Tomb Raider at 4fps
I fail to see the point here

[Anonymous No.9950347]

>>9947914
>final boss of a japanese RPG is a mix of different fallen angel symbolisms
No shit? That's so unique.

[Anonymous No.9950364]

>>9950332
32x was selling better than the saturn in the states. Sega was pretty dumb to kill it so soon. It was going to get Darkstalkers and a whole new Castlevania exclusive, too.

[Anonymous No.9950372]

>>9950332
The 32X made no sense in a scenario where the Saturn launched when it did. The argument is that both the 32X and Saturn would have been better off had the Saturn been pushed back a year.

[Anonymous No.9950378]

>>9950364
thats a lie

>>9950372
32x was the sign to reign in soa they fucked up

[Anonymous No.9950382]

>>9950372
Agreed. Wait till Sega could put a 3dfx gpu in the Saturn to launch it, until then just keep supporting the 32x / genesis.

[Anonymous No.9950387]

>>9950382
You're being facetious but that is literally what the Dreamcast should have been.

[Anonymous No.9950393]

Ok, lets say Saturn was delayed for the western market. What would be the optimal time frame to release it and optimal games to push already out in Japland in regards to that time frame?

PS1 didn't really kick off until 97, so waiting for a 96 Holiday launch could have benefited SoA looking at ps1 sales trends, what games people were buying that they maybe had something comparable or higher quality to. Crash Bandicoot was really the only big exclusive prior to FF7 besides arcade ports which Sega also had.

But if they wait till late 96/early 97, they risk Mario 64 and the 64 launch shaking shit up. Saturn had rpgs and arcade ports, but never really had anything comparable to Mario 64/full 3D platformer. Would it be best to just ignore the 64 and focus all in at competiting as best as possible with the PS1? Maybe also push harder into their PC ports as some side revenue for their western markets.

[Anonymous No.9950396]

>>9950364
>32x was selling better than the saturn in the states.
No it wasn't. It had an initial burst on release and then it flat lined. Worldwide the 32X sold 800k units. Of that, about 500k is the initial release during the 1994 holidays. The remaining 300k were sold over the course of 1995 to early 1996 as the system was dumped into clearance bins. Keep in mind that these are world wide numbers.

Meanwhile Saturn sold 500k In North America alone in 1995. And unlike the 32X it would go on to sell another 1.5 Million in North America the following year in 1996.
>>9950372
>The argument is that both the 32X and Saturn would have been better off had the Saturn been pushed back a year.
That doesn't really work because Japan needed a new system in 1994, and the 32X wasn't going to help them there. And for all we know the issues with Saturn's hardware could have been ironed out throughout 1994 if the hardware R&D resources dumped into the 32X were instead put into the Saturn.

[Anonymous No.9950403]

>>9950393
I don't think it should have just been the western market. Delay it until 1995 worldwide and use the time to cook the architecture more and build a better launch lineup with Virtua Fighter 2 as a pack-in. Meanwhile the 32X would have been carrying the weight of both arcade ports like VF1 and other relevant games like Capcom's stuff and get a bigger library in general just from the install base it would get from A) having VF exclusivity in Japan, and B) not competing with the Saturn nearly day and date.

[Anonymous No.9950432]

>>9950393
>What would be the optimal time frame to release it and optimal games to push already out in Japland in regards to that time frame?
If there's no 32X in this scenario then Saturn should have released in Fall of 1995 in the US and stuck with the original date in Japan. This allows Sega of America to focus on getting devkits, manuals, etc. into developers hands and focus on making games that appear to western markets. Japan can focus on their own games and putting more polish into existing titles as well as possibly cleaning up some of the Saturn's rough spots in early 1994. As a result Saturn launches in the US with the following:

- Virtua Fighter Remix
- Daytona USA (more on par graphically with Sega Rally/Daytona CCE)
- Panzer Dragoon
- Star Wars Arcade
- Doom
- Stellar Assault
- Metal Head
- Virtua Racing Deluxe
- Clockwork Knight 1&2 combined
- Knuckles Chaotix
- Astal
- Bug!
- Sports games made by Sega of America, Sega of Japan, and EA

Throw in the possibility of various third party titles (NBA Jam, Mortal Kombat II, SimCity 2000, Rayman, etc.) now being able to hit the launch window due to better support from Sega of America and now Saturn has a pretty good looking launch in the US. On top of that you have heavy hitters like Sega Rally, Virtua Fighter 2 and Virtua Cop right around the corner for the upcoming holidays. That could have given the Saturn a much better start that doesn't leave it looking weak when compared to the competition.

And on top of it all, by this point RAM prices had fallen and the VA1 revision was out so Sega could have probably launched in the $299-$349 range.

[Anonymous No.9950437]

>>9950396
>and the 32X wasn't going to help them there.
I don't think we can assume that. Yes, the Mega Drive wasn't that hot in Japan but Virtua Fighter was. It didn't matter what that game showed up on. Whatever had Virtua Fighter was going to sell and build an install base. The Jaguar would have been a hit over there if it had Virtua Fighter. That's how huge that one game was. People absolutely would have run out to buy Mega Drives and 32Xes the second VF released.

[Anonymous No.9950450]

>>9947459
My mom used to play this Tomb Raider but she got afraid of the Dinosaurs and couldnt beat the game so she'd just start over.

[Anonymous No.9950456]

>>9950450
Did your mom have big tits?

[Anonymous No.9950457]

>>9950456
No, but I do

[Anonymous No.9950459]

>>9950396
>and the 32X wasn't going to help them there.
Just sell 32X+MD bundles then, or better yet, release a consolized hybrid (Neptune).

[Anonymous No.9950462]

>>9950437
Virtua Fighter was big, but not big enough to get people to shell the same amount of money as a PS1 for instead a legacy console, a weak add-on, and a more expensive cartridge for a version that no where near resembles the arcade. If you need proof look at Virtua Racing. Like Virtua Fighter it was extremely well received in arcades as well yet the Mega Drive port didn't push any Japanese gamers to run out and buy a Mega Drive.

For all the flaws the original Saturn port of Virtua Fighter has, it at least still looks and sounds more like the arcade save for the flickering issues. And above all it also plays more like the Arcade. The 32X version has none of that. The characters are far more blocky, the sound is awful, and the controls are horribly inconsistent making it play poorly. Japanese gamers were fine with the original Saturn port as it was. For the rest of the world they could launch with Virtua Fighter Remix.

[Anonymous No.9950465]

>>9950459
Or better yet, nix the 32X and focus on the Saturn.

[Anonymous No.9950469]

>>9950465
But saturn is overpriced, overengineered piece of shit.

[Anonymous No.9950471]

>>9950462
>Virtua Fighter was big, but not big enough to get people to shell the same amount of money as a PS1 for instead a legacy console a weak add-on
It absolutely was. 100% serious it was at least as big as Dragon Quest, possibly bigger. Shit, most people who bought Saturns did so JUST for VF and then promptly bought PS1s. That game had a nearly 1:1 attach rate because nobody bought a Saturn without buying VF. Sega's entire legacy with the Saturn is owed to that one game.

[Anonymous No.9950498]

>>9950450
I refuse to believe anyone's mom could successfully play a game like tomb raider

[Anonymous No.9950540]

>>9950469
>But saturn is overpriced
By the time it would launch in Fall of 1995 it could price match PS1.
>overengineered piece of shit.
The 32X is far worse in this regard, especially if you try and bring the Genesis and Sega CD hardware into the mix.
>>9950471
I think you're overestimating Virtua Fighter's influence here. It was big yes, but not big enough to convince Japanese gamers to invest about the same amount of money into a legacy system vs the new Playstation. All that would happen in this scenario is Sega's Japanese success with the Saturn is completely erased and replaced with 100% Playstation dominance from Day 1.

> That game had a nearly 1:1 attach rate because nobody bought a Saturn without buying VF. Sega's entire legacy with the Saturn is owed to that one game.
At launch sure, but that probably has more to do with the fact that the other launch titles were nothing of value short of maybe Myst. As time went on the game didn't really keep up that 1:1 attach rate as more games came out.

Virtua Fighter for the 32X didn't even chart in Famitsu, while Virtua Racing Deluxe, Star Wars Arcade, Space Harrier 32X, After Burner 32X, and Metal Head all did. That should tell you something about how much pull the 32X port of Virtua Fighter actually had in Japan. If Japanese gamers were only buying Saturns because they wanted to play Virtua Fighter, wouldn't you think a couple thousand would spend about $100 less for the full 32X system + the game if all they wanted to do was play Virtua Fighter? The fact that they didn't should tell you that Saturn's success in Japan wasn't just because of Virtua Fighter, but also because of it being an actual next generation system.

[Anonymous No.9950556]

>>9950204
You said probably.

[Anonymous No.9950558]

>>9950260
You're right. Ignore that tendie.

[Anonymous No.9950560]

>>9950334
You're on a forum that makes daily n64 praise threads for games that run at these same speeds.

[Anonymous No.9950565]

>>9950540
>Virtua Fighter for the 32X didn't even chart in Famitsu
We're talking about a hypothetical where VF came out at launch on the 32X and the Saturn was put off for a year. That's an entirely different scenario than one where the Saturn launches, gets a VF port, and then later on the 32X gets one as an afterthought.

You're also focusing too much on the legacy console issue I think. Remember that under this hypothetical the 32X isn't competing with any next gen system yet because none of them are out (well the Jaguar and 3DO are but those didn't land). So it's not like people are choosing between 32X and Saturn. The 32X would be positioned as a step forward. An admittedly half-step but still a step. The PS1 would release shortly after, yes, but remember that the PS1 was a relatively slow burn early on. It took a couple of years, pretty much until 1996ish with Tomb Raider. Tekken 2, and Crash Bandicoot for it to rapidly pick up steam. MK3 was a big deal in North America because Sony paid for timed exclusivity but that early PS1 lineup didn't have that many killer apps. Plus the 32X wasn't all that expensive. It was around $150. If you didn't own a Genesis that was probably another $99 at most by 1994. Sega could have possibly dropped it to $49 by then even. I don't remember off hand.

[Anonymous No.9950730]

>>9949746
Console peasant

[Anonymous No.9950736]

>>9949908
>>9950231
It was designed to be a 2D Powerhouse and then they panicked when they saw the PSX and threw in another VDP to do better 3D
Stop revising history
Even the Panzer Dragoon director creator said the Saturn coudn't do real 3D

[Anonymous No.9950743]

>>9950556
Might have = Probably
Same thing

[Anonymous No.9950757]

>>9950730
Console? Even arcade games have slowdown. Good luck convincing anyone your pc master race can touch some of the greatest arcade games of all time.

[Anonymous No.9950878]

>>9948703
>only evidence is the same shitty vhs rip

The side scrolling part was used for an X-Men 32x game which is dumped, and the voxel engine was released on the Saturn as the game AMOK. The former coders of the demo also commented on it on pouet.net.

[Anonymous No.9950882]

>>9949125
>On release in 1994, the Saturn cost about 54,800 Yen to produce, the PS1 cost about 50,000 Yen to produce.

source: my ass.

[Anonymous No.9950951]

>>9947459
Where is the optimized one?

[Anonymous No.9951367]

>>9948413
>Not easy to parallize the rendering part.
Why? Usually 3D rendering is fairly easy to parallelise since it's tightly looped code. It's easiest when you're z-buffering because then the render order is completely independent but span buffering would be more efficient. Even if you insist on using the original rendering code you could still interleave the drawing.

[Anonymous No.9951385]

>>9950736
>It was designed to be a 2D Powerhouse and then they panicked when they saw the PSX and threw in another VDP to do better 3D
You're almost entirely backwards. It has been confirmed more recently in interviews. You're right about them panicking over the PS1, however they weren't making a 2D machine and retrofitted it for 3D, they were making a 3D machine and they panicked when they realised how much BETTER the PS1 was going to be at 3D. VDP2 is a 2D chip after all, it's basically a super mode7. It was too late in the development to make vdp1 - the 3D chip better, so they brought back part of the design they had scrapped which was the background generator. The idea being that those clouds and planar ground textures were like 25% of the rendering time, so if there was a dedicated chip that's like making VDP1 25% faster. They just needed to put their heads in the sand a bit about how useful that would be in the long term.

[Anonymous No.9951456]

>>9950736
> threw in another VDP
Absolute bullshit
VDP1: sprites
VDP2: backgrounds
2d needs both of them,

[Anonymous No.9951460]

>>9951456
Nah, you can do backgrounds with just a sprite renderer.
See the neogeo for a good example of that. It can only draw sprites, no tilemap background layers supported.

[Anonymous No.9951473]

>>9950565
>We're talking about a hypothetical where VF came out at launch on the 32X and the Saturn was put off for a year.
And even in that scenario Japanese gamers were not going to put down almost the same amount of money as a PS1 for a beefed up legacy system running an inferior version of Virtua Fighter.
> Remember that under this hypothetical the 32X isn't competing with any next gen system yet because none of them are out
Do you know when the PS1 actually released in Japan? It came out in December of 1994. Saturn launched a week and a half earlier, 32X shortly after. In this hypothetical situation you're throwing the 32X up against the PS1. In order for this to even possibly work you have to somehow have Sony delay the PS1 for at least a year.
>but remember that the PS1 was a relatively slow burn early on.
Not really. The system sold very well from it's launch and had some nice heavy hitters early on. And remember, we're talking about Japan here. The PS1 and Saturn both took off and did well in Japan at release.
> Plus the 32X wasn't all that expensive.
In 1994 the 32X was about 16,800 Yen, a Mega Drive 12,800 Yen, and a copy of Virtua Fighter was 7,800 Yen when it came out. So that's about 37,800 Yen for a beefed up Legacy system playing a poor imitation of Virtua Fighter. Meanwhile for 2,000 more Yen you could get a PS1 and be playing stuff like Ridge Racer and Tekken. There's no way to make the 32X work in Japan.
>>9950736
>It was designed to be a 2D Powerhouse and then they panicked when they saw the PSX and threw in another VDP to do better 3D
The last minute change after the Playstation specs were revealed was the 2nd SH-2. This has been confirmed by both the Hideki Sato interviews and interviews from Hitachi employees. The System was designed with 3D in mind from the start according to these interviews as well, the 2nd SH-2 was added because they weren't getting the performance they wanted with just one.

[Anonymous No.9951484]

>>9950882
Saturn production cost mentioned in the Hideki Sato Interview:
https://mdshock.com/2020/06/16/hideki-sato-discussing-the-sega-saturn/

It states they lost 10,000 Yen on each unit at launch, the launch price was 44,800 Yen. So that would put the manufacturing at 54,800 Yen.

PS1 Source is behind a paywall on a Japanese news site, but a person has been reading and translating these articles over the past few years:
https://169.45.167.69/forum/showthread.php?35945-Japan-execs-were-upset-that-Kalinske-was-allowed-to-resign-w-o-taking-blame-for-32X&p=886374&viewfull=1#post886374

That source states the production cost of the PS1 was over 50,000 Yen at release.

[Anonymous No.9951491]

>>9950882
Saturn production cost mentioned in the Hideki Sato Interview:
https://mdshock.com/2020/06/16/hideki-sato-discussing-the-sega-saturn/

It states they lost 10,000 Yen on each unit at launch, the launch price was 44,800 Yen. So that would put the manufacturing at 54,800 Yen.

PS1 Source is behind a paywall on a Japanese news site, but a person has been reading and translating these articles over the past few years:
https://sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?35945-Japan-execs-were-upset-that-Kalinske-was-allowed-to-resign-w-o-taking-blame-for-32X&p=886374&viewfull=1#post886374

That source states the production cost of the PS1 was over 50,000 Yen at release.

[Anonymous No.9951495]

>>9951385
>so they brought back part of the design they had scrapped which was the background generator.
That's not what they did either. VDP2 was part of the design from a very early point. Its mentioned in documentation from early 1993. What was added in response to the PS1 was the 2nd SH-2. This has been confirmed by both Hideki Sato and Hitachi engineers.

[Anonymous No.9951592]

>>9951473
>In 1994 the 32X was about 16,800 Yen, a Mega Drive 12,800 Yen, and a copy of Virtua Fighter was 7,800 Yen when it came out. So that's about 37,800 Yen for a beefed up Legacy system playing a poor imitation of Virtua Fighter. Meanwhile for 2,000 more Yen you could get a PS1 and be playing stuff like Ridge Racer and Tekken. There's no way to make the 32X work in Japan.
I realize this is our impasse but I think that wherever VF lands first, thats what sells. People would have absolutely picked a 32X if thats where they had to go to play VF over a PS1 for Tekken. VF was WAY bigger than Tekken in the early days. The 32X as is sold something like 400,000 units. If it were the exclusive platform for VF1 in Japan you could add at least 2 million to that number. And that would be enough of an install base to carry it until the (for this hypothetical) late 1995 Saturn launch. Remember, the argument isn't that the 32X would "beat" the PS1. But the goal is for it to be a stop gap to both align the interests of SOJ and SOA and also give the Saturn a more favorable position and possibly better architecture. The 32X only needs a good 18 months in it. Which is perfectly doable in this situation.

[Anonymous No.9951625]

>>9951592
>The 32X as is sold something like 400,000 units.
It sold about 800k units worldwide, about half of which were from it's initial launch in the west, the remainder were in clearance bins over the next year or so.
> If it were the exclusive platform for VF1 in Japan you could add at least 2 million to that number.
VF1 didn't even sell that many copies on Saturn worldwide, let alone in Japan. Again, you're severely overestimating how much it could push 32X systems. No one in Japan was going to spend the amount of money a PS1 cost to instead buy a Mega Drive and a 32X for a bad port of Virtua Fighter.

[Anonymous No.9951648]

You keep saying "inferior port" as if the scenario involves a superior one existing.

[Anonymous No.9951662]

>>9951473
Where are you getting the Mega Drive price? That seems pretty expensive for 1994. In the west there was a $99 model in 1991.

[Anonymous No.9951672]

>>9951648
Who are you talking to anon

[Anonymous No.9951741]

>>9951662
That's the price the Mega Drive 2 released at in 1993. Going off of ads for games that came out in 1994 like Virtua Racing, that was still the price in Japan when the 32X came out. Sega of Japan typically wasn't as aggressive with price cuts once the hardware hit a certain point. You see the same thing with the Saturn, once it hit 20,000 Yen it stayed there for the rest of it's time on the market.

[Anonymous No.9951767]

>>9950498
My mom played a lot believe it or not, Vectorman, Windwaker, Link to the Past, and a shitload of the Lego games were her favorites. She would name save files after me, or dad, or my brother - if she couldnt beat a game she'd just start over.

[Anonymous No.9951789]

>>9951741
That's surprising to me. You'd think they'd have been more aggressive with Mega Drive pricing when it was in worse shape compared to in America, where the Genesis was doing great. Part of the reason the Genesis sold gangbusters was it's amazingly competitive pricing strategy. You could get a Genesis for practically nothing, which is why almost everyone had one. A lot of times if a person had just one video game console it was a Genesis.

[Anonymous No.9951837]

>>9950757
You don't need to convince people of a thing they already know.

[Anonymous No.9951852]

>>9949657
>Xbox is only dead in your brand-warrior fantasies.
it didn't print money. and it didn't sell in japan or rest of world.

[Anonymous No.9951945]

>>9951789
That's because in the US price wars were a bigger thing. In Japan they weren't nearly as aggressive yet. So at 12,800 the Mega Drive was still cheaper than a Super Famicom. The issue wasn't price, it was that the Super Famicom had the JRPGs from Square and Enix, and the Mega Drive didn't.

Price wasn't the only reason the Genesis did well in the US, it was also because it had software that appealed to the US audience.

[Anonymous No.9952101]

>>9951945
I don't think it was just about Square and Enix. The Mega Drive was beaten to market in Japan by the PC-Engine and both systems filled the same niche at the start, being primarily a source for quality arcade ports. As the PC-Engine pulled away the Mega Drive didn't have the runway to catch up and just fell further behind. This was a non-issue overseas since the Genesis came out well before the TG16.

[Anonymous No.9952227]

>>9952101
The top selling game on the PC-Engine is Tokimeki Memorial. If you look at the top selling games on it it's mostly Visual Novels and JRPGs with some arcade ports and shmups sprinkled in between. The Mega Drive had plenty of shmups and arcade ports, but was a bit lacking in JRPGs and had little to no visual novels.

The PC-Engine also successfully transitioned to CDs as it's primary form of media. That resulted in bigger games, more content, better versions of multi-platform games, and cheaper games in general. It probably also gave the impression of a more advanced system to the average consumer. Sega didn't successfully make that transition with the Mega CD so none of they didn't have any of those benefits playing in their favor either.

[Anonymous No.9952260]

>>9952227
Tokimeki Memorial came out in 1994. Way after the PC-Engine launched. What got it in people's homes at the beginning, and thus built it's install base, were arcade ports since for the first time home consoles could reproduce what was in the arcade with reasonable parity. A console's appeal can only expand after that initial uptake builds confidence in the platform. All those RPGs that sold Super Nintendos were doing so because there was a reason to put them on the system to begin with after enough people bought it for Mario and Street Fighter II.

[Anonymous No.9952670]

>>9952260
> What got it in people's homes at the beginning, and thus built it's install base, were arcade ports since for the first time home consoles could reproduce what was in the arcade with reasonable parity.

The bulk of the PC-Engine's sales happen between 89-93. After the CD-ROM expansion came out and became the standard format for games to be released on. What did the CD-ROM expansion bring with it? RPGs and Visual Novels. Arcade ports were nice and did sell decently as well, but that wasn't the main thing driving sales.

[Anonymous No.9952754]

>>9948408
>a slow paced 3D game running at 10 fps proves the 32X could've had a proper 3D Sonic game

[Anonymous No.9952897]

>>9952670
But they were the reason the system had a big enough install base to even make those games happen in the first place. A console that flops out of the gate doesn't get more games.

[Anonymous No.9952918]

>>9950757
>your pc master race can touch some of the greatest arcade games of all time
Did exist as X68000 and Neo Geo

[Anonymous No.9952921]

>>9952754
Yes and we already have footage of it
https://youtu.be/DrxbGn-FQcA
Never mind that half the games on 32X including Chaotix's special stages are literally 3D. Have people really never played a 32X game before?

[Anonymous No.9952945]

>>9952754
Because the other reply wasn't sufficient, here's Virtua Racing Deluxe, fast pased 3D game running silky smooth on 32X hardware. Literally better than the Saturn version
https://youtu.be/4gNP3Lk0Ivk

[Anonymous No.9952964]

>>9952897
No, they really weren't. The install base pretty much tripled from 1989-1993 with the release of the CD-ROM add-on. And one of the big first titles on that add-on was Tengai Makyou, an RPG.

The arcade ports were nice, but the system really took off with the release of the CD-ROM add-on and the RPGs, Visual Novels, and anime tie-in games it brought with it.

[Anonymous No.9952980]

>>9952964
BROS I NEED MORE TRANSLATED TURBO GAMES AHHHHHHHHH

[Anonymous No.9952985]

>>9952921
Nothing in that video is running on an actual 32X. Those were all pre-rendered on an Amiga 3000.

[Anonymous No.9952992]

>>9947459

[Anonymous No.9952995]

>>9952945
>Literally better than the Saturn version
Considering the Saturn version was done by Time Warner with no source code at all while the 32X version was done in house by Sega, that's not hard to pull off.

That said, 32X Virtua Racing is capped at 20fps and is letterboxed to reduce how much is drawn. Collision detection for certain track side objects is also disabled to reduce the processing load. The Saturn version on the other hand has more detail in the 3D models, runs in full screen, and targets 30fps, even though it doesn't always hit that target.

[Anonymous No.9953024]

>>9952995
I feel like at a certain point you realize that raw power can only go so far and there's something much deeper about what makes a game actually enjoyable to play. It's the difference between something like Sonic 2 and something like Bug!. The latter has 3D backgrounds, prerendered sprites, CD audio, and FMV cutscenes, but still manages to be way less enjoyable on the basis of how it's designed. The Virtua Racing games are similar, while the 32X version may not look as good, it still manages to be more enjoyable to play.

Another thing to look at is while VR Deluxe was impressive for a 32X game, it's actually not that amazing as a Saturn game - the same platform capable of stuff like Burning Rangers and Panzer Dragoon II Zwei. SEGA's own Daytona games look better, albeit they're a little less arcadey and slightly more realistic in terms of how they play.

[Anonymous No.9953040]

>>9949039
>instead they were adamantly against the Saturn and unable to move on from the Genesis
It wasn't that they were against the Saturn, it's that SoJ told them to push the Saturn out early in the US, without any warning to the retailers and developers, and gave them absolutely no alternative to that decision.

[Anonymous No.9953084]

>>9951491
>On Sony’s support for third party developers:
That's a pretty good take given they're the competitor. Too bad it didn't serve as the wakeup call Sega needed.

[Anonymous No.9953120]

>>9953024
Sure, but at the same time Saturn Virtua Racing isn't that bad when you consider it was outsourced to an American third party who weren't given anything but an Arcade machine. They literally made that port no original source code, no devkits, no C libraries, no English hardware manuals and had to completely eyeball it off the arcade machine.

>>9953040
Context is very important with this decision. This decision came after Sega of Japan practically bent over backwards to give Sega of America exactly what they wanted, only to have that idea fail spectacularly requiring a quick course correction to try and salvage the situation. The rushed surprise Saturn launch was a direct result of the failure of the 32X. Had Sega of America just gotten on board with the Saturn and not pushed for the 32X, we likely would have seen a proper Saturn launch in the Fall of 1995.

[Anonymous No.9953146]

>>9953024
>>9953120
Nobody really wanted a game like Virtua Racing by the time the console ports were coming out. That game was kind of like Star Wars Arcade, a spectacle designed for the arcade environment that worked specifically because it was doing something way beyond any home console or computer at the time. Once those graphics became doable on home consoles they necessarily became passe because stylistically they harkened back to 1993, an eon given the pace of 1990s technological standards, and the game itself didn't have the same meat that was expected of console games by then. Super Mario Kart had more tracks.

[Anonymous No.9953461]

>>9951491
>Saturn production cost mentioned in the Hideki Sato Interview:
>this is a repost from sega-16 forums
>original link is a 404 error

so it's bullshit. got it.

[Anonymous No.9954354]

>>9953461
So you were dropped on the head as a baby. Got it.

[Anonymous No.9954451]

>>9952992
every xbox is a far bigger flop than any SEGA console ever was. at least SEGA had GAMES unlike xbots

[Anonymous No.9954713]

>>9953461
The Saturn production cost is in the Hideki Sato interview. The Sega-16 forums are currently having DNS issues but you can get to them if you click on the forums link on the main page:

https://169.45.167.69/forum/showthread.php?35945-Japan-execs-were-upset-that-Kalinske-was-allowed-to-resign-w-o-taking-blame-for-32X&p=886374&viewfull=1#post886374

The original Japanese article the translated snippet comes from is behind a paywall here:
https://www.nikkei.com/article/DGXZQOCD0696E0W2A500C2000000/

[Anonymous No.9954735]

>>9947935
soulless

[Anonymous No.9955028]

>>9949657
they had 1 console that did well and really only in 1 continent

[Anonymous No.9955054]

>>9954451
i think its supposed to be sega talking to microsoft after the dreamcast flopped and sega licensed all their games on the xbox.

[Anonymous No.9956240]

I still can't get over how great SEGA CD is. I switched back to it after playing Saturn for a while and the experience is just so much better. Tons of solid 2D platformers, shmups, and RPG's to choose from. Less boring arcade ports and weird tech demos, more solid 16-bit games. I could play this thing for hours, Saturn not so much

32X is cool. If only it had supported for a bit longer I'm sure it would've been almost as good as SEGA CD. I still really enjoy Knuckles Chaotix, Virtua Racing Deluxe, Shadow Squadron, Darxide, and After Burner on it.