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/vr/ - Retro Games

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File: 58 KB, 800x440, Sega-Master-System-Set.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9808379 No.9808379 [Reply] [Original]

were brutally hard games an NES-only thing or was the Master System also affected by "NES Hard" games? were SMS games generally easier than their NES counterparts? what about the Genesis vs the SNES?

>> No.9808397

I think SEGA games in general were known for being difficult, likely owing to their arcade roots and attempts to bring that experience home.

>> No.9808404

>>9808379
Alex Kidd in miracle Land is infinitely more difficult than any Mario game.

>> No.9808409

>>9808379
The SMS games felt more slower paced than NES, which might be a good or a bad thing depending on your tastes.

>> No.9808442

>>9808379
Alex Kidd is so damn hard it's still hard playing it on an emulator reloading a save state every 2 minutes

>> No.9808464

I hate to be cliche here, but "NES hard" is very obviously an American-ism. The NES didn't have harder games than other 80's systems by any stretch of the imagination. The hardest stuff appears to be on the computers.

>> No.9808465

It wasn't "NES Hard" it was "Nintendo Hard"

>> No.9808467

>>9808465
And no one owned a fucking master system

>> No.9808481

>>9808379
Genesis games were harder because
1. Arcade-like nature
2. lots of shovelware developed or outsourced by Sega of America

>> No.9808491

>>9808409
The CPU on the Master System is a relative slug while the NES is pretty fast. Master System games feel more like C64 or Amiga games than NES ones.

>> No.9808494

I don't really notice any difference in difficulty. It honestly just feels like playing an nes with better colors and different sound

>> No.9808496

>>9808491
>Master System games feel more like C64 or Amiga games than NES ones.
And that's a good thing.

>> No.9808502

>>9808496
that's just because a lot of them were European developed

>> No.9808508

>>9808502
Also a good thing.

>> No.9808513

>>9808502
well really I meant more because they're rather slow paced and feel lower budget/more amateurish which gives them that kind of Amiga vibe

>> No.9808525

As I'd mentioned, it's not terribly fast either. The CPU is 3.5Mhz on paper but the Z80 has really long execution times for instructions so in practice it's slower than the NES's 1.7Mhz 6502. So it's not as good at fast action games.

>> No.9808534

>>9808491
but wasn't the SMS more powerful than the NES?

>> No.9808536

>>9808464
>>9808404
>>9808442
>>9808397
but did they have games as hard as Battletoads, Ninja Gaiden, Castlevania 1 & 3, Silver Surfer, Ghosts N' Goblins?

>> No.9808546

>>9808404
it's also a shitty game with bad game design

>> No.9808553

>>9808534
It has more raw CPU power but not as fast. There are some other nice features like the bigger color palette and generally being easier/more straightforward to program but it was retarded to not include h/w sprite flipping and the sound is very limited and shitty. Of course the bigger color palette also came at a price of needing more ROM space so Master System games have less content than NES ones for the same ROM size. You need 256k of ROM to get what you can fit in 128k on the NES, even considering that Z80 code is generally more compact than 6502 code.

>> No.9808581

>>9808536
Nigga play some 80s computer RPGs for 10 seconds and you'll wish you had those back.

>> No.9808582

>>9808536
The Master System had its own separate Ninja Gaiden. As did the Game Gear.

>> No.9808694

>>9808536
Ninja Gaiden was on the Master System and it's unironically the best version of it out there

>> No.9808724

>>9808379
>were brutally hard games an NES-only thing or was the Master System also affected by "NES Hard" games? were SMS games generally easier than their NES counterparts? what about the Genesis vs the SNES?

It was an 8-bit thing, in general. Though, I remember 'old school' arcade/ Atari 2600 saying things like 'NES games were too easy' back in the day.

>> No.9808771

>>9808724
what about the 16 bit era? weren't SNES and Genesis games also hard? I think the 5th gen is when games became piss easy

>> No.9808969

>>9808771
>weren't SNES and Genesis games also hard?
not same anon, but SNES/Genesis settled for what I think is a more balanced/reasonable degree of difficulty. You still go back to the beginning if you lose all your lives even in a popular game, e.g. Sonic 2. But I wouldn't consider the average platformer/rpg as hard or hellish as Castlevania I or FFI; these are something else.

>> No.9809034

>>9808969
so basically

NES/SMS = hard/brutal
SNES/Genesis = medium/bit challenging
PS/N64/Saturn = piss easy

>> No.9809065 [DELETED] 

>>9808969
>not same anon, but SNES/Genesis settled for what I think is a more balanced/reasonable degree of difficulty. You still go back to the beginning if you lose all your lives even in a popular game, e.g. Sonic 2. But I wouldn't consider the average platformer/rpg as hard or hellish as Castlevania I or FFI; these are something else.

I think in general 8bit games were harder because they were generally smaller in scope. You could make an argument that the Atari era has even harder games. Nintendo made their games easier , but exchanged challenge for length and more reason to replay them. Sega kinda did the same with their most popular titles: Sonic. I felt that Sonic 2 was easier than the first. But the levels were larger in scope. But of course, there were still hard 16bit games for all the platforms. More arcade like, or arcade ports. But oddly, I feel like the gen 6 consoles (PS1, N64), the games were harder in many ways. games were becoming more sim like. Or maybe early implementations on 3D.

>> No.9809081

>>9809065
>You could make an argument that the Atari era has even harder games.
how were they harder if most didn't even have an ending?
>I felt that Sonic 2 was easier than the first
sonic 2 was easier to beat normally, but sonic 1 is easier to beat with the chaos emeralds. S2 special stages were terrible.

>> No.9809082

>>9808581
Not him, but yes! Ultima 5, Deathlord, and the gold box TSR games. I can’t believe how good those are even today.

>> No.9809089

>>9808969
>not same anon, but SNES/Genesis settled for what I think is a more balanced/reasonable degree of difficulty. You still go back to the beginning if you lose all your lives even in a popular game, e.g. Sonic 2. But I wouldn't consider the average platformer/rpg as hard or hellish as Castlevania I or FFI; these are something else.

I think in general 8bit games were harder because they were generally smaller in scope. You could make an argument that the Atari era has even harder games. Nintendo made their games easier , but exchanged challenge for length and more reason to replay them. Sega kinda did the same with their most popular titles: Sonic. I felt that Sonic 2 was easier than the first. But the levels were larger in scope. But of course, there were still hard 16bit games for all the platforms. More arcade like, or arcade ports. But oddly, I feel like the gen 6 consoles (PS1, N64), the games were easier and harder. Depends on the genre. games that were becoming more sim-like, definitely felt harder more complex. Racing games, for one. And there were some good arcade ports in the 32bit era that were hard as nails.

>> No.9809091

>>9809065
>But oddly, I feel like the gen 6 consoles (PS1, N64), the games were harder in many ways. games were becoming more sim like. Or maybe early implementations on 3D.

I think you meant gen 5, and I disagree. I think the save feature greatly damaged gaming. there's very few 5th gen games I had a challenge with. 5th gen games as well as some SNES and Genesis games (particularly those with a save function) were very easy. I didn't play many SNES games so I can't judge but the few I did play (Super Mario World, FFVI) were easy.

>> No.9809093

>>9809081
>>9809091
for >>9809089

>> No.9809097

>>9808724
>It was an 8-bit thing, in general. Though, I remember 'old school' arcade/ Atari 2600 saying things like 'NES games were too easy' back in the day.

And by that, I mean people like Eugene Jarvis, who created very hard games like Defender and Robotron 2084. Who may have said that the Nintendo were of games were becoming too easy. I do not have any exact quote.

>> No.9809105

>>9808581
and the Sierra ones?

>> No.9809109

>>9809091
>I think you meant gen 5, and I disagree. I think the save feature greatly damaged gaming. there's very few 5th gen games I had a challenge with. 5th gen games as well as some SNES and Genesis games (particularly those with a save function) were very easy. I didn't play many SNES games so I can't judge but the few I did play (Super Mario World, FFVI) were easy.

Sorry, I went and edited my post. To make myself more clear. I think it is a genre thing. because for me the 32bit gen was mostly playing arcade ports of games. Or games like Tomb Raider, where I actually felt had a really Rigid challenge. Or Sega Daytona USA or Sega Rally. Driver had a challenge to it with the extra weighted car physics. Or WipeOut with its floating physics. But there were some genres that were easier. Metal Gear Solid was easier than Super Metroid for me, on its first playthrough. But had way more story narrative and cutscenes and such. I love the game.

>> No.9809113
File: 448 KB, 1200x871, EccoETD.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9809113

>>9808969
Castlevania 1 isn't hellish.

>> No.9809117

>>9809097
To be fair, Robotron 2084 is tougher than NES games. Shit is brutal.

>> No.9809119

>>9809113
stage 5 without holy water is hard. don't know stage 6

>> No.9809138

>>9808379
>were SMS games generally easier than their NES counterparts?
SMS games were, generally speaking, harder, largely due to inferior game design.
Alex Kidd in Miracle World is harder than Super Mario Bros because Alex Kidd controls worse - he accelerates too fast - and the enemies are at times too hard to avoid.
Golvellius is harder than Zelda, because the enemies spawn relentlessly in Golvellius and it's impossible to actually clear an area of monsters.
But on the other hand, Phantasy Star is harder than Dragon Warrior not because of poor design, but because the first-person viewpoint makes it easier to get disoriented, and the dungeons are much more complicated. So I'd say it's harder in a way that makes it a better game. Not too many examples like this, though.
>what about the Genesis vs the SNES?
Notwithstanding the console-war nonsense that this thread is sure to be filled with, the games on those two systems were pretty similar in terms of difficulty. You can see it in the games that were released on both systems: for the most part they control exactly the same, and the only differences are cosmetic.

>> No.9809149

>>9809117
>To be fair, Robotron 2084 is tougher than NES games. Shit is brutal.

Early 70's and 80's arcade games are notoriously hard. I feel like each console generation, games became a little easier. But the 32bit/64bit gen was kind of like the 8bit generation all over again, but with devs wrestling with polygon graphics and 3D world physics. Of course production budgets went up too for things like cutscenes and narrative. So, there was still a trend of games being easier. But 5th gen brought additional jank not seen in previous generations that caused artificial difficulty. But in some genres, there were attempts to add additional complexity to the gameplay, devs trying to figure out what to do with 3D. 5th gen had a lot of arcade ports that I would say could be hard.

>> No.9809320
File: 1.40 MB, 2272x1574, challenge.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9809320

SEGA's motto used to be "the challenge will always be there"

All games were more challenging, because the player wanted them to be challenging. Difficulty as a whole decreased with each generation.

With that said "NES hard" has always been a meme spewn by people who can't even beat Super Mario Bros without crying about it. There are hard games on NES but they're not the ones people complain about, they're the ones those people have never played.

>> No.9809370

>>9808496
Evidently not, because the NES outsold the Master System.

>> No.9809383

>>9809138
>Golvellius is harder than Zelda

I got this game once, about 30 years ago.
It stuck in my head, but I never found the name.
Thanks anon.

>> No.9809384

>>9808379
All action games and by action game I mean a game that involves real time (as opposed to turn based or point n click) ALL come from arcade. So the origenal is arcade hard and NES hard is just the kid version of it. And you know the rest about how modern gaming audiences got too casual for the arcade and we moved onto games that are so easy you can predict in advance how many hours it will take to clear.

>> No.9809390

>>9808771
You could find hard games on SNES and Genesis, but NES and Master System were harsher IMO.

With PSX and N64, you saw games with longer and greater scopes, making more use of saving, so aside from more games having more options for difficulty levels, it's just less hard if you can do a game in parts and not have to start over from the beginning if you fuck up. This would also give devs more 'license' to be meaner to the player, but not everyone did that. Some games threw you extra challenge by letting you unlock bonus content which was much harder than the rest of the game, which I think is pretty cool actually.

>>9809320
>With that said "NES hard" has always been a meme spewn by people who can't even beat Super Mario Bros without crying about it. There are hard games on NES but they're not the ones people complain about, they're the ones those people have never played.
Agree. I never heard the expression "NES hard" or "Nintendo hard" as a kid, I think I first heard it in the 2010s, and it felt mostly unfitting to me, because it's not like they were all hard across the board, tougher than later gens maybe, but not across the board ballbusters. Barring Lost Levels, which could be pretty underhanded in places, the Mario games are not what comes to mind when I'm picturing an NES game which really punches you in the mouth.

Batman and Ninja Gaiden were pretty tough games, while Battletoads and Fester's Quest were yet more brutal, I loved Batman and Fester's Quest a lot, but the latter was probably the least fair game I had. Punch-Out!! wasn't that mean overall, but VERY few kids ever beat Mike Tyson, might as well have been fighting him for real. I've heard that Holy Diver is supposed to be one of the hardest on the console, but I haven't played it.
There's those games which were hard for the wrong reasons, like a lot of the LJN movie license games, but that's the game not being finished and you being ripped off.

>> No.9809452

>>9808397
>>9808379
SMS games are brutal. A lot of games are arcade conversions, where they pretty much give you 3 lives and thats it, no cheats, no continues, and sometimes a round timer.they made 0 difficulty/compensation adjustments

>> No.9809454
File: 247 KB, 940x635, challenge.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9809454

>>9809320
Came here to post this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdLK4_a_sJ0

>> No.9809504

>>9809320
>All games were more challenging, because the player wanted them to be challenging. Difficulty as a whole decreased with each generation.
What you wrote contradicts itself. I mean you argue for shitty difficulty solely using 30 years advertisement to lengthen 20min games.
>>9809390
>Agree. I never heard the expression "NES hard" or "Nintendo hard" as a kid, I think I first heard it in the 2010s, and it felt mostly unfitting to me, because it's not like they were all hard across the board, tougher than later gens maybe, but not across the board ballbusters. Barring Lost Levels, which could be pretty underhanded in places, the Mario games are not what comes to mind when I'm picturing an NES game which really punches you in the mouth.
It spawned because of lack of saves and continues. Games were made to waste your time on purpose to lengthen them. If they had unlimited continues and started from where you left off people wouldn't have called them NES hard. Even on Mario you have to go for warpzones to continue where you left off. That's what NES hard means.