For a game all about boss fights this really needed better boss fights

[Anonymous No.9703270]

I Minotaur A
>good tutorial but just 'climb to weak spot and attack it" (goes for all bosses)
>should you ever get hit, you can just run away and wait for your health to recover (goes for all bosses)
>0 threat
II Mammoth
>first arbitrary puzzle
>arrows hurt his feet but your sword somehow doesn't
>0 threat
III Knight
>the game's flagship and unsurprisingly the peak of the game
>actually attacks
>throughout cathartic
>can't just hide somewhere until your health has recovered as easily as with most bosses
IV Kirin
>just a puzzle
>hints (should you even need them) completely spoil puzzle and just make it a cinematic experience
>0 threat
V Bird
>just a puzzle but with good presentation
>hints (should you even need them) completely spoil puzzle and just make it a cinematic experience
>absolutely 0 threat but punishing you by wasting your time should you fall off
VI Minotaur B
>just a rehash of 4
VII Eel
>decent
>hints spoil the puzzle, but the execution isn't completely braindead
>still too easy
VIII Yamori B
>barely even a colossus
>repeating something very unspectacular several times
>even though it doesn't move, climbing its body is janky and can cost you time
>0 threat
IX Kame
>first lazy projectile spam
>janky climbing
>hints spoil the puzzle, but the execution isn't completely braindead
>0 threat besides predictable projectile spam

[Anonymous No.9703273]

>>9703270
X Narga
>game arbitrarily introduces a new rule 3/4 in (weak spots that aren't glowing spots)
>hints (should you even need them) completely spoil puzzle and just make it a cinematic experience
XI Leo
>game arbitrarily introduces a new rule 3/4 in (interacting with environment and breaking environment dropping items)
>the first boss that makes an effort to hit you, even if it doesn't do any damage
>hints completely spoil puzzle, and it's not even a good cinematic experience but really just completely pointless
>probably the low point that makes it hard to even look forward to what's to come
XII Poseidon
>game arbitrarily introduces a new rule towards the end (bosses reacting to non-damaging attacks in essential ways)
>hints are suddenly useless, misdirecting players into a bouncing act of swimming from shrine to shrine and looking for things you can do
>0 threat besides predictable projectile spam and wasting your time
XIII Snake
>hints (should you even need them) completely spoil puzzle and just make it a cinematic experience
>0 threat
XIV Cerberus
>the only dangerous boss in the game, which gives additional emphasis to the game's fundamentally flawed concept of fighting large colossi
>once you know what to do, it's hardly a fight and just a platforming level
>any difficulty derives solely from the fact that the boss can unfairly stagger-lock you and its attacks aren't always possible to dodge
XV Minotaur C
>game arbitrarily introduces a new rule towards the end (environment reacting to enemy attacks with convenient physics so you can climb asinine structures that wouldn't be climbable without a colossus paving the way)
>0 threat
XVI Evis
>projectile spam but otherwise decent with great presentation

Not sure if my standards are just too high or something, but in all the years I slept on this game, I never saw anyone describe it as a cinematic experience. Not Sony, not the game itself, not any of the fans

[Anonymous No.9703275]

>>9703270
Minotaur, I thought it was a horned beaver?

[Anonymous No.9703280]

The best ones I would say are
1, 3, 5, 7, 13, 16
The game would be better with just these six. Just give all of them an actual intro level with some platforming like the final boss has one

[Anonymous No.9703304]

I always found it a bit unrewarding how you got nothing after killing one. Just feels like a grind

[Anonymous No.9703336]

Another case of hard mode should be available from the start.

[Anonymous No.9703379]

>>9703336
Bosses hitting harder doesn't eliminate the issue of walking around or hiding somewhere and waiting for your health to regenerate, does it?

Bosses having auto heal just like the player would make for an exciting dynamic

[Anonymous No.9703465]

>>9703336
Hard mode doesn't do shit in this game. Bosses need more attacks and non-scripted behaviors in general for SotC to be replayable as an action game

[Anonymous No.9703531]

>>9703280
This but also an improved version of XV

[Anonymous No.9704169]

>>9703270
I remember it as challenging, but maybe I'm just shit at gaming. I only seriously started eating the apples/lizards when I played it on hard though. I played the ps2 pal version.
>>game arbitrarily introduces a new rule
Why would you expect the game to play the same after the first few colossi?

[Anonymous No.9704391]

>>9703270
>absolutely 0 threat but punishing you by wasting your time should you fall off
When you play other games, do you also think being forced to replay a level when you die isn't a threat and just a waste of time?

[Anonymous No.9704556]

>>9704169
>I remember it as challenging, but maybe I'm just shit at gaming.
You can unironically survive dropping from a skyscraper, most attacks tickle you and your health regenerates. Only way for it to be hard is if you don't understand a puzzle, let frustration and greed get the better of you and keep trying to climb things you can't climb without recovering

>>9704391
Depends on whether the level is fun and challenging or just swimming in a straight line and waiting for the enemy to do its thing

[Anonymous No.9704563]

>>9703273
>describe it as a cinematic experience
It's a puzzle game. Just be because it's not an action game doesn't mean it's a movie. It's figuring out what to do that's the challenge, like in the other 2 games. Action is just something extra on top of the puzzle

[Anonymous No.9704573]

>>9704563
>It's a puzzle game.
Where most puzzles are obvious or the game literally tells you the solution, as seen in the OP picture

[Anonymous No.9704576]

Imagine writing this much retarded bullshit for free on 4chan.com

[Anonymous No.9704601]

>>9704556
>Only way for it to be hard is if you don't understand a puzzle
I was literally shaking from the adrenaline after beating the final boss at 5 am in the morning first time I played it. Great memory. Sorry you didn't enjoy it anon.

[Anonymous No.9704634]

>>9703270
>perhaps thou...
God damn thanks for reminding me how much I hate this fucking shit. It's one thing to give you the option for a hint but to force it down your throat after 3 minutes felt so fucking unrewarding. What's even worse is when you already know what to do and the game is buttfucking you with the hints anyway.

[Anonymous No.9704707]

>>9704634
kek

[Anonymous No.9704742]

>>9704634
>perhaps
Dormin should speak to you more casually and give you unintenionally wrong tips with the right ones hidden in between.

[Anonymous No.9704768]

The spider would be cooler than half of what we got

[Anonymous No.9705058]

wasnt it a low budget game?

[Anonymous No.9705064]

>>9704573
You can't win with some people. This one is too easy for you, but then everyone is complaining that TLG is too hard and it's not clear what to do. Maybe Ico is the one that's just right in terms of puzzling difficulty

[Anonymous No.9705065]

>>9704768
No it wouldn't have, the dummied out Colossi were removed because they either didn't work (Spider, Monkey) or weren't fun (Phoenix). A few of them were just going to be repeats of colossi that did make it into the game with a twist.

[Anonymous No.9705080]

I feel like SotC would be great if it was either half as long, or only required you to beat half of the bosses, and let you fight them in any order, putting more of an impetus on the player to explore.
Ideally, it would have had actual puzzles and stuff strewn around too.

[Anonymous No.9705091]

>>9705080
SotC was basically a tech demo for the PS2. The fact that nobody picked up its engine and ran with it isn't really Team Ico's fault.

[Anonymous No.9705093]

Praey for the Gods turning out to be a 4/10 game makes me think SotC was just a meme that lived off its novelty. The core gameplay is literally the same

[Anonymous No.9705106]

>>9705091
Okay, but my point is it overstays it's welcome for what it is. It's a game that has one real mechanic, which is climbing on things, and you can only stretch that so far before it becomes repetitive grind. Personally, I was mentally checked out after the bird.

[Anonymous No.9705131]

What's with all the SotC hate threads lately? We got yet another dedicated autist on our hands?

[Anonymous No.9705157]

>>9703270
>ride entire way to colossus so the game tells you the 2 things you must do
>rinse, repeat

[Anonymous No.9705159]

>>9705131
I think a lot of people have felt they weren't allowed to criticise this game for a long time, and once that cork pops, you know how it is.
Not even wanting to start shit, I played this game expecting the best, because that's how everyone frames it, and I got an hour or two of "that's pretty neat", and then I felt bored.
>dude, it's so emotional! It's such high art!
Is it though?
It's alright, don't get me wrong.

[Anonymous No.9705196]

>>9705159
>felt they weren't allowed to criticize this gam
Hit the nail on the head. I've always been critical of it. Its just a boss rush with awkward controls that couldn't even run at a consistent frame rate. It would be a cool indie novelty, at its put on the goat pedestal and vehemently defended

[Anonymous No.9705235]

>>9703270
If you want an actually good boss rush game, go play Alien Soldier and skip this overrated turd. Sony are incapable of making quality videogames.

[Anonymous No.9705242]

>>9705159
Is this why we also get more oot critical threads?

[Anonymous No.9705247]

>>9705159
>all those posts about how people couldn't stop crying after the ending
I member. Though it could be very emotional but why would I care about a literal devil baby and a girl who behaves like a robot? The Aggro thing was an obvious fake-out once you saw there was water and just made the game feel even more like it's ripping off movies like NeverEnding Story but without being honest about it.
>>9705242
Those are just Tomb Raiderfag.

[Anonymous No.9705268]

>>9704576
What's bullshit about it?

>>9704601
>Sorry you didn't enjoy it anon.
Never said I didn't. It's a must-play just for monopolizing a unique idea no other game can ever do without being seen as a clone. While I agree with >>9705106, I think every vidya enthusiast should have beaten the first three and maybe five colossi at a minimum

[Anonymous No.9705276]

>>9705159
>I played this game expecting the best, because that's how everyone frames it, and I got an hour or two of "that's pretty neat", and then I felt bored.
>>dude, it's so emotional! It's such high art!
I can get behind that. I let my expectations of how much peeps praised Xenogears color my perception on the game only to be exhausted with it around the halfway point in game. Though some of the opinions I've seen in these threads lately just irk me with how tone deaf they are when it comes to the presentation vs gameplay aspect.
>The open world is boring.
>Where are the upgrades/collectables?
I recall several years ago debating with a /v/irgin about the Presentation vs Gameplay and it really just seems he and others like him just want the Time Attack Mode minus the story.
The one thing I can legit understand is how fucking frustrating it can be figuring out how to tackle some Colossi that I've had my fair share of RAGE moments when I first played it during release.

>>9705196
>Awkward controls
Daily reminder that you can rebind buttons so the "awkward controls" argument is moot.

[Anonymous No.9705278]

>>9705159
I think some of it is a case of "you had to be there" like with FF7. The graphics have aged, but at the time it looked incredible for ps2 graphics which helped with the immersion a lot. Even the slowdown in framerate was just cinematic back then. When I see the remakes with higher framerates it just looks fake in comparison (and plays wrong too), having grown up with the original https://youtu.be/V_GLmE7ZBPE?t=70
but I can understand modern players being annoyed by it, being used to steady high framerates in modern 3d games.
Even the stripped down structure of the game was a novelty back then since indie gaming wasn't as big yet.

[Anonymous No.9705291]

>>9705276
It's more that once a game runs out of novel things to show me, I think it should end. A lot of games struggle with this. Especially now they struggle with this I don't want to do the same dungeon like 50 times in Elden Ring. Just make the game shorter.

[Anonymous No.9705294]

>>9705276
>Awkward controls
I didn't mean the layout, even though triangle as default jump is fucking stupid. More so wander controls sloppy, and having to hold to climb was irritating. I know story wise he's green, still felt off. I also haven't played sotc in like 15 years, so the fuck do i know

[Anonymous No.9705297]

>>9705268
>unique idea no other game can ever do without being seen as a clone
Maybe the way you cling to moving enemies but climbing giant creatures is being done by MH since 2004
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LceabCpSrs&t=1417s

[Anonymous No.9705365]

The director literally made interactive movies before

[Anonymous No.9705387]

>>9705297
>that whole "The First Battle" chapter
>"The Second Battle" starts out with the same thing
MH sucks so much shit.
I liked it in SoTC how the colossi reacted like living creatures

[Anonymous No.9705409]

>>9705387
>I liked it in SoTC how the colossi reacted like living creatures
kek

[Anonymous No.9705418]

>>9703270
5 is my favorite. From antagonizing it into swooping down, catching a ride on the shoulder of its wing, holding on for dear life as it rolls through the sky, to losong grip and falling into the water below as the music expertly shifts to set a tone of loss but not defeat. Really the whole package gave me goosebumps. Also OP is faggot.

[Anonymous No.9705421]

>>9705418
>Also OP is faggot.
You devoted an entire post agreeing with me and explaining what you love about your favorite SotC boss (the presentation)

[Anonymous No.9705447]

>>9703270
Which version of the game did you play OP? Ps4, Ps3 or Ps2 and was it NTSC or PAL? Not a critique btw, just curious which versions people perceive as easy vs. more difficult and fun vs. no fun.

[Anonymous No.9705462]

>>9705421
And you devoted an entire thread to pointing out the obvious.

[Anonymous No.9705509]

>>9705447
PS3 NTSC

[Anonymous No.9705646]

>>9705509
Thanks anon. I've heard the Ps3 version is based on the Ps2 PAL version but at the same time some say the grip gauge is a lot stronger in the Ps3 version compared to Ps2 PAL but that the colossi shake more instead. I haven't tried the Ps3 version myself though.

[Anonymous No.9705692]

I really hope this game is leaked or decompiled because wonders could be done with it.

>>9705646
Wander’s stumble is linked to the framerate, so since the PS3 performs 50% better than the PS2, it’s super fucked and Bluepoint prepared a patch but never deployed it because it “devalued” the achievement, so a large amount of players were never able to get some items and play how it was intended sans the 20 FPS.

[Anonymous No.9705724]

>>9705646
I need to do some testing of my own because, like you say, there are conflicting messages online about the port differences, even here on 4chan. But from the last threads' anon's reports: PS2 PAL version is only slightly faster in terms of performance due to some fixes, or something, made to the engine itself, normally PAL games play slower than NTSC games but I think this one is different? I actually downloaded the PAL version and the NTSC version after reading that thread and I was thinking of looking at their framerates. I bet NTSC version has a better frame-time so maybe its preferrable but I need to check.

[Anonymous No.9705845]

>>9705724
Comparing the versions would be really interesting. The only things certain so far seem to be the obvious changes like the squirrel in the PAL cutscene and the map changes where you easily can confirm the differences, but a more thorough side by side comparison would be useful with all the conflicting information.

[Anonymous No.9705858]

>>9705276
Mapping horse to R2 would make more sense nowadays and mapping Jump to Cross. It's been a while since I played it but it felt weird even during release. DMC1 was the same. Why some games were using triangle as jump during those times?

[Anonymous No.9706063]

>shitty Xbox One controller
>play game in which your life depends on keeping R button pressed at all cost

[Anonymous No.9706081]

>>9706063
You do realize you should swap L1/R1 to L2/R2 for Xbox and DS4/DSense controllers right? Main shoulder buttons on Xbox controller are triggers, unlike DS1/2/3's L1/R1. Even for SNES it makes more sense to use triggers as shoulder buttons as that's where your fingers are meant to relax. Main problem for Xbox controllers I think are Souls like games. Even then it's not so bad.

[Anonymous No.9706354]

OP is so duped by genre conventions that when he seesn a big monster that is a puzzle and clearly operates like a puzzle he gets mad and writes lengthy critiques about how this puzzle game is bad because it's not like a normal boss fight and it doesn't feel like combat (when it is not trying to be).

>The colossi themselves aren't really enemies, despite whatever aggressiveness they exhibit. They're more like neutral extensions of the land. You could call them the reincarnation of the sleepy nature spirits in Japanese legends. Director Fumito Ueda calls them "inverted Zelda dungeons" in the sense that they are both dungeons and dungeon masters combined into externalized, event-sized stages.

[Anonymous No.9706410]

>>9705159
What's your favorite game?

[Anonymous No.9706421]

>>9703273
The game teaches you these mechanics you deem arbitrary, perhaps you're too stupid to figure that out

[Anonymous No.9706796]

>>9705093
Just going from gameplay alone it's exactly what secondaries wanted out of SotC and they STILL hate it. It's got all the tacked on meme mechanics the could've ever wanted:
>Open World
>Crafting
>Paragliding
>Grappling Hook
>Weapon Durability
>Sleep/Hunger Meter
>Collectables

[Anonymous No.9706982]

>>9706354
>OP is so duped by genre conventions that when he seesn a big monster that is a puzzle and clearly operates like a puzzle he gets mad and writes lengthy critiques about how this puzzle game is bad because it's not like a normal boss fight and it doesn't feel like combat (when it is not trying to be).
The picture as well as 50% of what I said is about the puzzles. You didn't even read anything I said and just pigeonhole everyone who says something negative about SotC as someone who wants it to have Dark Souls combat. Not the first time I see a SotC fan do this, which leads me to believe it's your go-to cope
>Director Fumito Ueda calls them "inverted Zelda dungeons" in the sense that they are both dungeons and dungeon masters combined into externalized, event-sized stages.
Only a few actually feel like that, though. There is a reason you can easily finish it in around five hours

>>9706421
>The game teaches you these mechanics
No, you are supposed to find out about them when the game is almost over, which is like playing a Mario quiz with people and the 20th question is when The Sound of Nature was released

[Anonymous No.9707013]

>>9706982
>No, you are supposed to find out about them when the game is almost over
Not that anon but I unironically loved that aspect of the puzzle solving. The game forces you to think in new ways, solving the puzzles with slightly more lateral thinking than just putting two and two together. And it's only lateral thinking in the context of the game's mechanics, not in the context of the situations themselves. And since it does it quite a lot, as you point out, you come to expect it.

[Anonymous No.9707106]

>>9705858
Triangle is highest face button, so it fits in with jumping up
Square and oh are on the sides like arms, so attacking and doing actions with those is alright.
Ex is the lowest face button and you mostly use your legs to control a horse, so that make sense too.

[Anonymous No.9707286]

>>9707106
You use your legs to jump, and triangle, the highest face button, fits with being on your high horse

[Anonymous No.9707785]

>>9705297
Doing this shit for the first time in multiplayer was pure magic

[Anonymous No.9707927]

Imagine a SotC Online with 50 colossi you can fight with friends and an endgame with hardcore difficulty so you really need each other's help

[Anonymous No.9708776]

>wanna listen to the ost
>everything on youtube is that halo reach looking remaster with lets player's kotaku faces making up 90% the thumbnail

[Anonymous No.9708830]

>>9708776
Does someone know what the bugs are in the original? (PS2/PS3) Are there any bad ones?

[Anonymous No.9708858]

>>9704742
He wants you to kill them. He has nothing to gain from misleading you.

[Anonymous No.9708885]

>>9707013
>And since it does it quite a lot, as you point out, you come to expect it.
It only gets hyperspecific with the gimmicks 10 bosses in. I assume the hints spoil so much because they knew a lot of it is out of left field, but it's a very bad remedy for a problem that has no reason to exist. One of the biggest core mechanics the game teaches us about is the light beam that gives us hints. Why not just be consistent with that and also let us highlight essential parts of the environment and non-"vitals" like Narga's eye? Would that be too video game-like, even though they could just describe it as "magic that guides you"? Would it be too hard for them to make the bosses a bit more challenging to compensate for it? Instead of actually making the light beam useful in combat, is it really better to have a cryptic puzzle they then just spoil in text form or risk that some players don't even get it with the hint and stroll around for an hour?

The whole game feels disjointed and like it's lacking a good overarching framework. Not shocking they cut so many bosses and changed so much throughout development

[Anonymous No.9708890]

>>9706982
>No, you are supposed to find out about them when the game is almost over
It relies on you observing the environment and understanding that after the third colossi, some interact with the environment to their advantage or their demise. You failed to learn this despite being at the end of the game and after having fought a boss that literally spends the majority of the fight knocking shit over.

You're just stupid if you think it's arbitrary. Probably got stuck on the deku tree web.

[Anonymous No.9708939]

>>9708890
>It relies on you observing the environment
It relies on you reading the solution the game gives you because the devs know their puzzles are dumb

[Anonymous No.9708942]

>>9708885
>10 bosses in
Like this anon says >>9708890 it's much earlier. Literally with the third boss you have to trick him to smash his sword against the middle platform so part of his armor breaks off. But for some reason you liked that one, even though it had a what you call "arbitrarily introduced new rule". It sounds like you're expecting a game where you only need to think "how do I defeat this boss within the confines of how the game works?" instead of thinking "what could I try if it was me in this situation?".

[Anonymous No.9708957]

>>9708942
Not to mention he wants a Heatseeking vision mechanic AAA garbage is plaqued with so it's safe to say he's a pretentious pleb.

[Anonymous No.9709113]

>>9708776
i don't understand why they changed the ivory palette to puke

[Anonymous No.9709147]

>>9708776
>>everything on youtube is that halo reach looking remaster with lets player's kotaku faces making up 90% the thumbnail
What the fuck are you even talking about?

[Anonymous No.9709547]

>>9703273
>never saw anyone describe it as a cinematic experience
Everyone says this for years

[Anonymous No.9710050]

>>9704601
>I'm retarded and easily entertained, get down to my level anon
no

[Anonymous No.9710121]

>>9705131
SotC is like the perfect example of a game that zoomers don't understand. It's a technical marvel and a jaw-dropping game. You're not supposed to nitpick the mechanics of boss fights. I mean, the combat is not Dark-Souls tier but it's also not abysmal so this is just people coming in late and expecting too much

I was once like this too, with games like Chrono Trigger and OOT. I always went in and was like "wow, that's it? what's so good about this?"
These people will come back around in 10 years time when they realize that they missed out on a great game and could never replicate the moment, despite trying hard to

I'd love to have been there for Chrono Trigger/OOT. It's the same thing with this game, you can see that it's a good game but can't see past that because you simply are seeing it from an outsider perspective

[Anonymous No.9710180]

>>9703270
Pretty spot-on list, OP.
Cutting the game to +-8 bosses would have been enough.
I played the game for the first time on the PS4 in 2020 and I would recommend it that way over the PS2 or PS3 or emulater versions although I get why fans of the old versions dislike the visual changes. In any case it's a game that lives by its aesthetics, the soundtrack, the atmosphere not by its gameplay, which is usually not that fun, such as the climbing.
The opening hooked me immediately:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT_SxEUT9Ks
Around boss #8 the game started feeling like a chore but I wanted to finish it and it was a unique experience despise some frustrating moments. Absolutely understandable why it has so many fans. I still enjoy listening to the soundtrack.
After having played Minecraft and Terraria in 2018-2020 I really enjoyed not having stupid time-wasting mechanics such as collecting and sorting loot.

>>9705093
>Praey for the Gods
I wasn't aware of the game and checked it out right now on Youtube - I am not surprised: It doesn't look good or interesting at all. Mediocre aesthetics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ft-1WZx9ns

[Anonymous No.9710507]

>>9708942
I'm not claiming my 4chan post is a flawless assessment that can't benefit from future revision. I would still say a bullseye in the center of an otherwise empty arena, distinct Hobbit houses or huge geysers unmistakably present themselves as part of the mission and precisely set you on a wrong track when later bosses have similarly suspicious-looking structures you aren't even supposed to pay attention to because you're supposed to be looking for tiny knobs that somehow let you control the boss like a mecha. That's suddenly the opposite of observing the environment. I assume most people instinctively try using the rock pillars in the Narga fight, but what you actually have to do is shoot its eye, even though it doesn't glow, doesn't attract your beam and shooting eyes didn't do anything before. Sometimes "non-vitals" have a white glow (Yamori), sometimes a blue glow (Poseidon, even though its horns also glow and don't do anything), and sometimes they don't glow at all (Narga, Snake). It also makes no sense how only your seemingly regular bow can damage certain weak spots. Then, Leo and Minotaur C have completely inconspicuous jigsaw pieces that you're somehow supposed to know can tilt or conveniently spit out a torch for you

It feels like every third boss redefines some rules a bit, which I'm sure is why they saw the necessity to spoil most puzzles, which again, even if you disagree with everything else I'm saying, even you can't think is ideal game design. This game needed more time and better supervision

>>9708957
>AAA garbage
>he's a pretentious pleb
Good old irony. Though the sad truth is that "AAA garbage" would be better than completely cryptic puzzles the game spoils with no challenge outside of that. There are many different things you could do to impropve the game

[Anonymous No.9710830]

>>9710507
>set you on a wrong track when later bosses have similarly suspicious-looking structures you aren't even supposed to pay attention to
So just because some of the colossi required using the environment you suddenly expect them all to do the same? Once again it sounds like you wanted the game to only present you with one obvious easily deducible solution, with no exploration necessary, as long as you think within the limitations of the game mechanics.
>what you actually have to do is shoot its eye, even though it doesn't glow, doesn't attract your beam and shooting eyes didn't do anything before.
When I first played I quickly noticed the eyes were one of its obvious defining features.
https://youtu.be/bVrtC0crWps?t=232
>It also makes no sense how only your seemingly regular bow can damage certain weak spots.
In the case of the snake, it's not about damaging it, only distract its eyes to crash into the wall.
>Then, Leo and Minotaur C have completely inconspicuous jigsaw pieces that you're somehow supposed to know can tilt or conveniently spit out a torch for you
It's an exploration game. You're expected to try different things, and if it doesn't work try something else. And you already know the environment might be able to help you, as with the third colossus.
>why they saw the necessity to spoil most puzzles
I can agree that spoiling the puzzles with hints might have been unnecessary, though I think the game gives you ample time to think about the puzzles and try things on your own (at least the ps2 version did).
>even if you disagree with everything else I'm saying, I'm saying, even you can't think is ideal game design.
Like I said I like this type of more lateral puzzle solving. More "gamey" puzzle solving can be fun too. But I also like point and click adventure games a lot and games like Myst. And SotC feels like a well designed adventure game, but with good action integrated.

[Anonymous No.9710986]

>>9710830
>So just because some of the colossi required using the environment you suddenly expect them all to do the same?
It was your claim that the game is all about inspecting the environment. I'm just pointing out such a leitmotif isn't really there and it's instead extremely random
>When I first played I quickly noticed the eyes were one of its obvious defining features.
You would probably fail a pattern-recognition test then. Looking at random blind runs, it seems most people have no idea what to do half of the time until the game spoils it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_57WKiSdqQ&list=PLU5c5YzX2iBbxkpIKuTmg64wFKX35A2y7&index=4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3M6cuycGEec&list=PLhnazjUB_WkIiYdC68-SlfTQqfTPdpfQg&index=5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZgPj0SOk9I&list=PL2ORxC26-anKU6aZabQpmqILHqUOclh6z&index=6
Looks like the remake added some extra glow to the eyes, though
>It's an exploration game. You're expected to try different things, and if it doesn't work try something else.
You just described trial and error, which can be quite boring and is what happens when a game hasn't established meaningful rules in its tutorial phase or doesn't care to adhere to them. The only thing the first boss teaches you is how to climb. Then every boss after is basically its own video game
>though I think the game gives you ample time to think about the puzzles and try things on your own (at least the ps2 version did)
No

[Anonymous No.9711045]

>>9710986
>It was your claim that the game is all about inspecting the environment.
Maybe you think I'm some other anon.
>You just described trial and error
Yes. Trial and error is only bad if it's trial and error and nothing else. If it's trial and error for the purpose of figuring out how something works it's the good type of trial and error. Myst has that kind of trial and error. You have no idea how anything works at the outset and the game doesn't give you any tutorial, it wouldn't work with a tutorial since that game too is "its own video game" for each puzzle.

[Anonymous No.9711081]

>>9710121
That's a good point. The thing about Shadow of the Colossus is that it doesn't really excel as a game, but it really set the the waterline as to what games could become. There are few games if any that have met that line in the twenty years since it's come out. It's hardly a fun game, so you shouldn't play it for that reason, but it is an absolute must if you want to deepen your understanding of presentation and creativity within the scope of video games because it is the furthest thing from generic.

It can be improved upon as a game, which is why the remake is all the more frustrating as it ruins the art direction (it's not even the assets that are bad, they just changed the lighting and color palette for no reason and then didn't even have the courtesy of including the original palette as one of the fifteen filter options) without improving upon the weakness in the gameplay. There are a few things that could have been done without much:
>allow the colossi to be fightable in any order
>integrate items into the main game
>tie Wander's grip strength to his stamina so he'd stumble less earlier on; alternatively (or additionally), increase his grip strength when he is unarmed
>do away with UI altogether and make Wander have grunts and animations to indicate his stamina and physical condition
>disable hints
If that's too offensive to do in a remake, then why bother? Include a classic mode. None of these ideas would be that difficult to implement aside from the animations since we all know Bluepoint hates those.

[Anonymous No.9711156]

>>9710986
>a woman a basedboy and a troon
volumes

[Anonymous No.9711370]

>>9711045
>Maybe you think I'm some other anon.
You agreed with him and just called it an exploration game in your last post
>If it's trial and error for the purpose of figuring out how something works it's the good type of trial and error.
Organized enquiry, simple risk-and-reward considerations and analyzing correlations between rules and clues is kinda universally preferable to blind trial and error, which is why difficulty in most good games is a curve and not a scatter plot. It seems like what most people who played a lot of games do in, for example, the Minotaur C boss fight is the following:
>realize that they fought similar colossi before
>try to find said correlations and actually apply everything the game taught them, which is how good video games usually work
>then try to make him drop his sword by shooting the palm of his hand
>then notice how he slams his sword down similar to previous bosses and try to climb it
>then try to make him hit the bridge, wasting a lot of time trying to make him do a specific attack
>then waste a lot of time trying to climb his suspicious-looking armor
>then actually manage to climb his sword thanks to a glitch, which makes it almost impossible to know for sure whether this is the right way or not and whether they're just missing something
All that just to finally understand that they were supposed to do something they never had to do before in any way and all the clues are a pointless misdirection
https://youtu.be/Fnh4S8aTzE0?list=PLhnazjUB_WkIiYdC68-SlfTQqfTPdpfQg&t=1465

Coincidentally, this guy also brings up how annoying it is that the difficulty solely comes from time penalties

It's just hard to believe they even playtested the game properly

[Anonymous No.9711450]

>>9711370
>called it an exploration game in your last post
and exploring includes exploring the colossi
>then notice how he slams his sword down similar to previous bosses and try to climb it
you mean after trying to make him smash his sword against something hard like with the previous boss?
>then actually manage to climb his sword thanks to a glitch, which makes it almost impossible to know for sure whether this is the right way or not and whether they're just missing something
I don't think that's in the original.
>Organized enquiry, simple risk-and-reward considerations and analyzing correlations between rules and clues is kinda universally preferable to blind trial and error
I agree but this isn't "blind" trial and error. You make those organized enquiries, simple risk-and-reward considerations and analyzing correlations on rules and clues here too, to decide what to TRY and if you get a reaction you make new analyzes based on the results. And the rules and clues aren't just limited to predefined game rules but to expected rules of cause and effect in the real world as well as the game world.
>It's just hard to believe they even playtested the game properly
Maybe when it comes to Bluepoint, I haven't played their versions.

[Anonymous No.9711553]

>>9711450
>and exploring includes exploring the colossi
But the guy you agreed with and you in your own post brought up exploration in context with the environment to defend something like the Leo fight. It's fine if you want to retract that, but that means you're saying SotC is a game where you are supposed to look at everything, which is a bit redundant
>you mean after trying to make him smash his sword against something hard like with the previous boss?
That's my point. It's normal to expect something to be a harder variation of things you have in the rearview. If that's not the case, you need better clues, but with clues you risk the late game feeling hand-holdy, which is why you should refrain from adding completely new things towards the end. Since this is game design 101 and to give the developers the benefit of the doubt, it's only logical to assume some of the bosses they cut were intended to give the game a better learning curve
>I don't think that's in the original.
I think you just say this and have no clue if that's true or not. There are a lot of things in the original
>You make those organized enquiries, simple risk-and-reward considerations and analyzing correlations on rules and clues here too
I just gave you a good example of how it can waste an hour of your lifetime if you're trying to do that. 80% of the correlation between rules and clues you can deduce from him have nothing to do with what you're supposed to do, which is why you have videos like that
>Maybe when it comes to Bluepoint, I haven't played their versions.
I'm talking about the original, which is a game that sets you on repetitive journeys through an empty world to kill harmless bosses via puzzles it solves for you because the developers know said puzzles aren't good

[Anonymous No.9711608]

>>9711553
Sounds like all your complaints are wanting more handholding but less than dormin suggesting things but sometimes more lol
Look stick to zeld and quit talking about games you dont get

[Anonymous No.9711621]

>>9711553
>that means you're saying SotC is a game where you are supposed to look at everything
That is exactly what I meant with it being an exploration game. Apparently it wasn't reduntant for you since you got annoyed that the solution couldn't just be deduced from how the game had worked in the past. And that's only for the lion btw. In the case of the minotaur it actually DOES help to try to play it like the last sword boss. If you'd tried to smash his sword against something hard, like say the platforms, you'd discovered that it doesn't break any of his armor but instead moves the platform. And then you could have made new decisions based on that.
>I think you just say this and have no clue if that's true or not.
Yes.
>I just gave you a good example of how it can waste an hour of your lifetime if you're trying to do that.
I never experienced the bug in that particular example so unless you can prove it exists in the original it's a bad example, it only proves Bluepoint fucked up. And in general (as long as there's no bugs) I don't see playing a game and failing as a waste of time, it just gives me a chance to play more and try something else. Frustrating, yes. Less fun, no. And when you DO solve a puzzle like that, it's so much more rewarding, to me anyway.

[Anonymous No.9711650]

>>9703273
13 was kino af

[Anonymous No.9711754]

>>9711608
>Sounds like all your complaints are wanting more handholding but less than dormin suggesting things but sometimes more lol
No, I'd want way less and none of those cheap hint messages. But it's obvious why they put them in the game, which is apparent with the two or three bosses where the tips are worthless or even misleading, but those don't change that bosses are generally way too easy and get shamelessly spoiled by the developers

>>9711621
>That is exactly what I meant with it being an exploration game.
Yeah, every games wants you to look at things
>Apparently it wasn't reduntant for you since you got annoyed that the solution couldn't just be deduced from how the game had worked in the past.
Your remark was redundant. The game is unstructured because they cut half the content or just aren't very good developers and used to making interactive movies
>If you'd tried to smash his sword against something hard, like say the platforms, you'd discovered that it doesn't break any of his armor but instead moves the platform. And then you could have made new decisions based on that
That's obviously not how the fight works, though. You are supposed to make him step on the platforms to make him create a ramp. His sword is much shorter, and I don't think I've ever even seen him swing his sword when facing the platforms. It's like you're just saying random things at this point, which doesn't hold much water in contrast with real-life reactions from random people and their gameplay: Being bored to death by trial and error in a huge arena and complaints about bad puzzles and a lack of difficulty besides time penalties

>>9711650
This sadly sums it up too well

[Anonymous No.9711781]

>>9711754
>none of those cheap hint messages
The remake lets you disable them, you just have to deal with the ugly new style.

[Anonymous No.9711841]

>>9711754
>That's obviously not how the fight works, though.
You move to the platform to see if he will swing at you, instead he tries to crush you and pushes the platform up and you can change your plans based on that. It's not how the fight works, but if you initially think that it's how the fight works, it helps you.
>real-life reactions from random people and their gameplay: Being bored to death by trial and error in a huge arena and complaints about bad puzzles and a lack of difficulty besides time penalties
Honestly I didn't watch the whole video. Are you talking about the youtubers playing the minotaur?

[Anonymous No.9712068]

>>9705387
Jhen and Dala are both climbable and fun. Don't care for the rest, desu

[Anonymous No.9712150]

>>9703273
> I never saw anyone describe it as a cinematic experience
Last time I checked movies are 24 frames not 14 like this worthless rubbish

[Anonymous No.9713582]

>>9711841
>Honestly I didn't watch the whole video. Are you talking about the youtubers playing the minotaur?
Yes

[Anonymous No.9713609]

>>9703304
>games must give me rewards for them to be fun!!!
zoomer brainrot, ladies and gents. this is the reason multiplayer games are all about live service unlockable grindfest bullshit circlejerks now.

[Anonymous No.9713856]

>>9711754
>Wants less cheap hints
>But also wants heatseeking vision that spells it out for him
OP I'm starting to think you're just a retarded contrarian.

[Anonymous No.9714160]

>>9703270
Judging by your specific criticisms, by better boss fights, you mean easier ones.

[Anonymous No.9714173]

>>9705276
>so the "awkward controls" argument is moot
But it doesn't have awkward controls anyway. I don't understand, you press the buttons it does the thing. There's nothing confusing or difficult about it.

[Anonymous No.9714301]

>>9705093
>Praey for the Gods
Worth playing or not?

[Anonymous No.9714594]

>>9713856
>>But also wants heatseeking vision that spells it out for him
That actually doesn't spell it out, unlike what the game already does, which also already has heat-seeking for the bosses' weak spots. They could also make it so that key objects don't draw your beam like bosses do but get highlighted or give you some signal only when you already suspect it and shine your light on it for a few seconds, similar to exploration in point-and-click games. Much better than the game just literally telling you what to do. An alternative is to simply give the game a better learning curve and rework bosses or add the ones they cut. The easiest alternative to at least make it less shitty is to hire someone with a basic understanding of psycholinguistics and write tips that are useful but don't let the average person know exactly what to do

Just random ideas, but people posted many ideas in this and probably other threads, and almost all of them would make the game better

Did the team behind it ever talk about time restraints or development hell?

[Anonymous No.9714978]

>>9703270
>>9703273
3
4
5
8
12
13
16
are all excellent, rest are kwab

[Anonymous No.9715524]

>>9703270
Always was a Reddit game a la TLoU

[Anonymous No.9715591]

>>9714173
People aren't clear on what they mean whatthey consider "awkward controls" as indicated by >>9705294 and some old forum post screenshot in a previous thread mirroring the same thing. I will say the only thing really awkward at first is using Triangle to Jump, since conventional vidya wisdom says Jump is usually the bottom most face button on the controller in Platformers (A/X), but again, that's a moot point with this game.

[Anonymous No.9715642]

>>9703273
A wall of text looks like you coping with a skill issue. The only valid criticism of this game is "why are some of them small? colossi are big". There's nothing else you can say about it, it's a perfect game.

[Anonymous No.9715707]

>>9715642
>There's nothing else you can say about it, it's a perfect game.
I love it and even I know you're full of shit.

[Anonymous No.9716382]

It's leagues better than ICO, a true kusoge Sonyfags puff up as part of the mighty kids meal with SotC. Imagine SotC but no collosi

[Anonymous No.9716604]

>>9716382
At least ICO has actual level design.

SotC is proto-open world garbage.

[Anonymous No.9716619]

love SotC
love ICO

simple as

[Anonymous No.9716721]

>>9703270
I remember when I played this years ago it bothered me that dying was really hard, you could get stepped on and not die or fall from a huge height and only lose like 20% of your life bar, which would regenerate in seconds.
However I think back then I might've focussed too much on failure states as a way of gauging difficulty, like thinking if a game didn't have a failure state or it was very hard to reach it then it couldn't be challenging. But I think now that if a game is set up so it's hard to achieve the goal, it can still be challenging and fun even if you're not really in danger at any point. Puzzle games often have no way to "fail" or reach a game over, but solving the puzzle can still be hard, and a fun challenge.

That said it's been ages since I played SotC so I can't remember if the puzzles and platforming are challenging or fun to overcome.

[Anonymous No.9716923]

>>9716721
>That said it's been ages since I played SotC so I can't remember if the puzzles and platforming are challenging or fun to overcome.
A few are

[Anonymous No.9716935]

>>9715642
If you ignore everything people say in this thread or other threads or probably reviews and have low standards, sure

It's one of the most blatantly flawed good games ever

[Anonymous No.9716943]

>>9716935
I can't really think of any flaws other than dormin hints and that's a very tiny issue.

[Anonymous No.9716979]

>>9716935
>or probably reviews
it has a 92 metacritic score, what are you talking about?

[Anonymous No.9718669]

>>9703273
PS2 was a DVD player

[Anonymous No.9718804]

>>9716604
>garbage
Why are gaymers incapable of agreeing on something in between? It's always either perfect or garbage

[Anonymous No.9720176]

>>9716979
>that you consider something good and give it a high score means you can't criticize it at the same time

[Anonymous No.9720202]

>>9720176
so you're saying reviewers were calling it a flawed game and then gave it an over 90% rating? lmao

[Anonymous No.9720702]

>>9720202
If it was flawless, it wouldn't be 90% but 100%. And we all know 90% means 70%

[Anonymous No.9721301]

>>9716619
This boss should have been longer, feels like 2 phases, should have an unexpected 3rd one for that final wow effect. Maybe walking around and stretching his arm over the abyss for some awesome presentation. Or trying to fling you into orbit

[Anonymous No.9721491]

>>9721301
I expected xer dress to come off eventually