If Sega just focused on making one hardware good instead of being spastic, they might still be a powerhouse today

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Anonymous Mon Feb 20 02:11:56 2023 No.9677324 [Reply] [Original]

If Sega just focused on making one hardware good instead of being spastic, they might still be a powerhouse today

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 02:15:31 2023 No.9677332 [DELETED]

>>9677324
The Saturn is what killed them. Nobody really cared about the Mega Drive add-ons, what mattered was having competently powerful, well-designed, developer-friendly hardware that could compete with the PlayStation, which Sega couldn't offer consumers during 5th gen and ultimately is what killed them.

In other words, fuck the Sega Shiturn.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 02:19:23 2023 No.9677351 i didnt know a single friend who had the saturn. I didnt even it know it existed until almost 10 years later. It was n64 and PS1 where i grew up

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 02:22:11 2023 No.9677361

>>9677332
The Saturn hardware is fine, what killed them was splitting their resources going into 5th gen with the 32X and Saturn. Had they just focused fully on Saturn instead of wasting time and resources on the 32X they probably would have been fine. Sure they wouldn't have beat Sony, no one was going to do that. But they could have secured a solid 2nd place.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 02:23:24 2023 No.9677363 >>9677324 all of those consoles have incredible specs for their time, op you are retarded

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 02:24:35 2023 No.9677367 File: 304 KB, 1201x1199, john_floigna.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9677332 >tfw the Shiturn had no Floigan

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 02:24:36 2023 No.9677368 >>9677332 glad to see saturnchads making you cope

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 02:25:38 2023 No.9677369 >>9677351 shithole?

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 02:27:22 2023 No.9677376 Cancel megacd, 32x Take the offer from sun systems given to Sega before they went to Nintendo Launch Saturn with 3d sonic from the jump They got everything right for the Dreamcast but it was too late by then

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 02:30:36 2023 No.9677380 >>9677324 dump the sega CD make the 32X a $189 standalone console with a cheap CD drive addon later on dump the shit turn launch $199 dreamcast with Riva 128 GPU + SH4 CPU in the US in 1997 and eat up N64 sales

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 02:31:29 2023 No.9677384

>>9677376
>Cancel megacd, 32x
The Sega CD was fine. The 32X was the problem. Just cancel that.
>Take the offer from sun systems given to Sega before they went to Nintendo
You mean SGI, and by the time that offer came around it was too late. The Hardware was finalized and going into production. We have no idea what state the SGI hardware was in at this time and considering Nintendo had to delay the N64 for years for SGI to make improvements it probably wasn't that great.
>Launch Saturn with 3d sonic from the jump
Made by who? STI proved they weren't up to the task with Xtreme, and Sonic team had just finished Sonic 3 and Knuckles. You can't pull a Sonic game out of nowhere unless you want something that's complete shit.
>They got everything right for the Dreamcast but it was too late by then
Except for selling it at a massive loss that literally bled the company dry.

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 02:33:19 2023 No.9677391

>>9677380
>make the 32X a $189 standalone console with a cheap CD drive addon later on
That would be even dumber than what the 32X already was. No one wanted the thing because it was horribly underpowered compared to the PS1 and Saturn.
>launch $199 dreamcast with Riva 128 GPU + SH4 CPU in the US in 1997 and eat up N64 sales
And bankrupt the company even more. Secondly by dumping the Saturn you no longer have the SH2, which means no 32X. It also means no SH3 or SH4. So no Dreamcast.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 02:35:10 2023 No.9677398 Would the Saturn have been more or less successful without the added chip

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 02:36:48 2023 No.9677403 >>9677398 What added chip would that be? The last second addition was the 2nd SH2, which without that the Saturn is pretty crippled. The dual SH2s are the least controversial part of the Saturn's design.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 02:37:14 2023 No.9677404 >>9677324 Nobody even knew Sega CD or 32X existed. Plenty didn't even know Saturn existed because it was so irrelevant. The problem was that the Saturn didn't have the games

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 02:37:38 2023 No.9677407 The 32x truly was a disaster, they should have just stuck with the sega CD until the Saturn was ready. Imagine all the other amazing PC Engine CD games that could have been ported. Rondo of Blood for example

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 02:38:47 2023 No.9677412 >>9677369 upscale white chicag suburbs so no.

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 02:48:25 2023 No.9677435

>>9677384
>The Sega CD was fine
No it was not. It was $299 and bottlenecked by the 68000 and megadrive DMA.
>The 32X was the problem.
The 32X was a great low cost 3D system. It only needed more games and better optimization. The SH2 had built in 3D functions and could push nearly a million flat shaded polygons per second.
>considering Nintendo had to delay the N64 for years for SGI to make improvements it probably wasn't that great
The delay was caused by nintendo being unsatisfied with the performance. They notoriously had unrealistic demands. With a different business partner the reality project could go smoother.

>>9677391
>That would be even dumber than what the 32X already was. No one wanted the thing because it was horribly underpowered compared to the PS1 and Saturn.
By 1995, since RAM and chip prices had fallen, it would be the cheap $100 alternative to the PS1.
>And bankrupt the company even more.
Nope. The Riva 128 was a lot cheaper than PowerVR2 with a performance that could give the voodoo a run for its money.
>by dumping the Saturn you no longer have the SH2
The SH2 was developed before the saturn.
>It also means no SH3 or SH4. So no Dreamcast.
That's fine, go with PowerPC or ARM.

>>9677407
Sega CD was a disaster. 32X shouldn't have been an addon.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 02:51:37 2023 No.9677443 speaking of SegaCD, i find it ironic that Sonic CD is considered the "flagship" game for the console and it didnt even come out until a year after the segacd was out

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 03:00:41 2023 No.9677474

>>9677435
>No it was not. It was $299 and bottlenecked by the 68000 and megadrive DMA.
The Sega CD is fine for what it was. It actually had a decent library with some good games. It was a response to a similar competing system and actually made sense.
> It only needed more games and better optimization.
The best optimization could give you was a decent port of Doom. The system is pure CPU software rendering with no GPU. Developers didn't want to touch it, and neither did consumers. They wanted to make games for more powerful systems like the Saturn and PS1.
>The SH2 had built in 3D functions
No it doesn't. It's just has really fast built in multiplication and division units.
>The delay was caused by nintendo being unsatisfied with the performance.
And Sega was unsatisfied with it as well, hence why they didn't throw away a design already going into production to use it.
>By 1995, since RAM and chip prices had fallen, it would be the cheap $100 alternative to the PS1.
And it would have been horribly underpowered and not able to compete. The falling RAM prices also impacted the PS1 and Saturn which is why we see them both drop to about $200 by 1996.
>Nope. The Riva 128 was a lot cheaper than PowerVR2 with a performance that could give the voodoo a run for its money.
And the Voodoo was shit compared to the Power VR2. The reason Sega went with that was because it was a good and cost effective chip, and being made by NEC the company could increase or decrease production quickly, while small start ups like 3DFX and Nvidia couldn't.
>The SH2 was developed before the saturn.
The entire reason the SH2 was actually successful was because it was used in the Saturn. Having that in the Saturn made the people notice the SuperH architecture. Without that the CPU most likely wouldn't have gone anywhere and development would have stopped. Meaning no SH4 for the Dreamcast.
>That's fine, go with PowerPC or ARM.
And that worked out wonderfully for the 3DO.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 03:09:15 2023 No.9677502 >>9677435 >ARM in the 90's

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 03:13:14 2023 No.9677507 >>9677502 Ironically one of the things that made ARM viable on systems with limited memory was the THUMB instruction set, which they licensed from Hitachi's SuperH instruction set.

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 03:18:34 2023 No.9677519

>>9677324
Sega was simply run by retards whose ONLY success was when an outsider Kalinske was given full control. I think during Kalinske era Sega sold more consoles than every other era combined. Master System was a flop, It's hard to assess whether Bernie was a retard or not, but regardless, after Saturn Sega was a sinking ship. Saturn was oner thing they shouldn't have fucked up, but they did exact opposite.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 03:22:01 2023 No.9677526 >>9677443 Sonic 1 came out like 3 years after the Genesis launched.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 03:23:53 2023 No.9677531 >>9677519 > Saturn was oner thing they shouldn't have fucked up, but they did exact opposite. And the biggest fuck up with that was Japan trusting Kalinske's judgement and letting them do the 32X instead of the Saturn outside of Japan.

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 03:25:15 2023 No.9677539

>>9677435
>The 32X was a great low cost 3D system. It only needed more games and better optimization. The SH2 had built in 3D functions and could push nearly a million flat shaded polygons per second.
>By 1995, since RAM and chip prices had fallen, it would be the cheap $100 alternative to the PS1.
imagine unironically thinking this. the system was running 3D that was like slightly improved Star Fox.

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 03:27:09 2023 No.9677542

If Sega had waited on releasing the CD until they could up it to 32X quality, they would have extended the lifespan of the Genesis by several years. This in turn would have allowed them to pick up the sunsys offer and fulfill it as nintendo did. In stead of focusing on providing the most valuable products, they burnt all their energy swatting away minor things like the TG-16 CD and trying to equal the PS1 when they weren't ready. Saturn was a knee-jerk and a failure, then the Dreamcast was what it was; imagine, if the Sega systems went like this:
>crap before Genesis
>1989 Genesis
>1994 CD 32X in one module
>1996 Sega 64
Would've won. Oh well. "Gotta go fast" = hare logic; tortoise won the race.

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 03:33:39 2023 No.9677554

>>9677407
Man, imagine getting an official port of Rondo back in the day. But yeah, they should just have stuck with the Genesis and CD addon for longer, shift away from the FMV meme, and maybe look at one or two CD games which used a companion cartridge with some sort of equivalent to the SuperFX chip. Or, fuck, probably the CD addon should have provided more 'lifting power' to begin with.

Otherwise, I wonder if without the thunderblunder of the 32X, and the Saturn being handled so shit, if perhaps the Sega Nomad could have been at all viable in any shape or form.
The technology required would probably have been too expensive at the time, but could you imagine if Genesis game development was shifted over to focus on supporting the Nomad primarily? Like if that was their replacement for the Game Gear and then they carried that forward as competition for the Game Boy?
It'd have to have a better battery time, optionally it's bundled with a set of rechargable AA batteries, and the power cable also comes with a converter plug so you can plug it into a car's cigarette lighter, so a kid can play on long car trips.
>inb4 dead car battery

That's probably a real pipedream, but it's a fun thought.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 03:34:48 2023 No.9677556 >>9677531 ok. in that case, even worse. Sega was a company run by retards both in SoA and SoJ who only got lucky once and immediately fucked up all the success they've achieved.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 03:39:59 2023 No.9677565 >>9677556 They had arcades too, that only started going south once the arcade business as a whole was in its death throes. Must have been more than just luck, something extremely good like the Genesis doesn't come about through just sheer chance.

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 03:40:12 2023 No.9677568

>>9677542
>If Sega had waited on releasing the CD until they could up it to 32X quality
At that point why not just do nothing and go for the Saturn? The Sega CD on it's own added more than enough to the Genesis. It's only real draw back was it didn't increase the color palette.
>this in turn would have allowed them to pick up the sunsys offer
It wasn't SUN you retard, it was SGI. And again this offer was far too late. Saturn design started in 1992, it was finalized by late 1993 and entering production with games going into development in early 1994. The only reason 32X has the hardware it has is because of the Saturn. Sega of America liked the dual SH2s in the Saturn and designed their own add-on around it.
>they burnt all their energy swatting away minor things like the TG-16 CD
Except that system was a juggernaut in Japan.
>trying to equal the PS1 when they weren't ready.
Except they were ready with the Saturn. The issue was splitting resources with the 32X. The Saturn hardware was more that capable of being competitive with the PS1.
>Saturn was a knee-jerk and a failure
32X was a knee-jerk. And it failed far worse than the Saturn and is mostly responsible for the messed up launch situation the Saturn had outside of Japan.
>if the Sega systems went like this
No, because that's retarded. What they should have done was this:

>Genesis 1988/89
>Sega CD 1991/92
>Low Cost Genesis + CD Combo unit becoming the default system in 1992/93.
>Saturn launches in 1994/95 with Doom, Star Wars Arcade, Stellar Assault, Virtua Fighter Remix, Knuckles Chaotix, 30fps Daytona USA, Panzer Dragoon, proper sports games, etc.
>Saturn now does well enough to hold it's own for a 2nd place finish, letting Sega not have to rush out the Dreamcast.
>Dreamcast launches in 2000 with 32MB of RAM, 16MB of VRAM, 300+ MHz SH4, Improved PowerVR2 + ELAN Chip from NAOMI 2 and DVD support.

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 03:40:45 2023 No.9677570

>>9677474
>The Sega CD is fine for what it was.
It was an overpriced underpowered trash with laughable sound quality.
>The system is pure CPU software rendering with no GPU.
>It's just has really fast built in multiplication and division units.
Good enough for the early 90s.
>And Sega was unsatisfied with it as well, hence why they didn't throw away a design already going into production to use it.
No, they wanted exclusive rights to the chip and SGI refused.
>And it would have been horribly underpowered and not able to compete.
It shouldn't be designed to compete with them. Should be just enough to keep sega afloat.
>And the Voodoo was shit compared to the Power VR2.
For the 90s chip fab facilities it wasn't.
>The reason Sega went with that was because it was a good and cost effective chip
Riva 128 was the most cost effective choice of the three by a wide margin. Also, it could be shipped as early as mid 1997, giving sega a head start.
>being made by NEC the company could increase or decrease production quickly, while small start ups like 3DFX and Nvidia couldn't
They had other companies producing the chips.
>Having that in the Saturn made the people notice the SuperH architecture. Without that the CPU most likely wouldn't have gone anywhere and development would have stopped.
Nah they've still got the 32X.
>And that worked out wonderfully for the 3DO.
PowerPC 7xx series worked out great for the gamecube. There were also other choices like the MIPS 3000/4000 and ARC architecture.

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 03:43:32 2023 No.9677575

>>9677568
>The Saturn hardware was more that capable of being competitive with the PS1.
It was a programming nightmare with a dozen or something chip architecture from hell. It took an assembly programming master to code Sonic R. Meanwhile, net yaroze games look about just as good.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 03:43:44 2023 No.9677576 >>9677570 >Good enough for the early 90s It really wasn't. The PS1 was 'good enough'. The 32X was an obvious stopgap from day one. >ARC ARC architecture didn't exist until last year.

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 03:47:01 2023 No.9677583

>>9677570
>It was an overpriced underpowered trash with laughable sound quality.
No, that's the 32X.
>Good enough for the early 90s.
But not good enough to go against the PS1. If the choice was Saturn or 32X, Saturn is hands down the better choice.
>No, they wanted exclusive rights to the chip and SGI refused.
Please provide the source for that fan fiction. Sega said they had some issues with the performance of the chip, throw in that when this happened Saturn's design was pretty much final and you can see why they didn't go with it.
>It shouldn't be designed to compete with them. Should be just enough to keep sega afloat.
And that would have been a disaster. The 32X as it was didn't sell because people decided to wait for PS1 and Saturn instead. How would making it a standalone system with the same hardware fare better?
>For the 90s chip fab facilities it wasn't.
For what it could do for the cost it was definitely better.
>Also, it could be shipped as early as mid 1997, giving sega a head start.
But could they spin up production on a moments notice? That was the deciding factor for Sega going with NEC.
>They had other companies producing the chips.
And still couldn't guarantee spinning up production fast enough.
>Nah they've still got the 32X.
No Saturn, no 32X. Sorry but that's the cold hard truth. Sega of America went with the dual SH-2s because Sega of Japan had already decided to go with them in the Saturn.
>PowerPC 7xx series worked out great for the gamecube
And would have been far too expensive and ridiculous to use in 1997.
> There were also other choices like the MIPS 3000/4000 and ARC architecture.
And you still would have had a system stuck in a mid generational gap just like the 3DO and Jaguar before it. It would basically be a 3DO M2.

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 03:48:26 2023 No.9677585

>>9677565
SMS: btfoed by NES
Genesis: outsold SNES in America, but dead last in Japan
Game Gear: outsold hard by GameBoy
Sega CD: flopped
Sega 32X: flopped
Saturn: dead last in the West, barely managed to outsell N64 in Japan
DC: failed and Sega went bankrupt
…no, it was luck. they had great games, don't get me wrong, but it didn't help since Sega was run by retards

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 03:49:10 2023 No.9677586

>>9677575
>It was a programming nightmare
So was the N64 and the SNES. Worse even in some cases.
> dozen or something chip architecture from hell
The 32X is an even bigger mess in this area.
>It took an assembly programming master to code Sonic R.
The Saturn had decent C Libraries as early as 1994. Sega of America just didn't get them to western developers because they were too busy jerking off to their 32X idea.

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 03:50:22 2023 No.9677587

>>9677576
>The PS1 was 'good enough'.
Nah the PS1 was a luxury. 32X could dominate the bargain bin section.
>ARC architecture didn't exist until last year.
The company made the Super FX chip. Apparently it was cheap enough that Star Fox wasn't more expensive than the average snes game.

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 03:50:58 2023 No.9677590

>>9677568
Saturn winning in Japan sure won them the game, didn't it?
What did the CD win them in the long run? Only a reputation for overexpensive half-life hardware additions. If they had pulled off a 32-bit Genesis disc addon, that would have lasted thru the first few years of PS1; & if they'd remained patient, and gone not for parity now with Sony but for superiority in the long run, we'dve gotten a tie for first place by '99. Nintendo would've been shit out of luck. Microsoft wouldn't have had the open playing field they had in the early oughts competing with one adult hit and two kiddy flops (both also successors to at least moderate flops). Sega would've been set.
The lesson to be learned is not, who has the best hardware wins marketshare now, but, who has the most stable platform wins in the long run, and, whoever competes least with themselves, cuts their enemies most.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 03:51:51 2023 No.9677592 >>9677587 >32X could dominate the bargain bin section. If it could have it would have. The thing was dead on arrival for both consumers and developers.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 03:58:00 2023 No.9677609 >>9677583 >But could they spin up production on a moments notice? That was the deciding factor for Sega going with NEC. NEC couldn't spin up production on a moment's notice either. The Dreamcast shortage was a real thing in this timeline.

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 03:59:31 2023 No.9677616

>>9677590
>Saturn winning in Japan sure won them the game, didn't it?
It kept the lights on. They had a pretty good software ecosystem going in Japan outselling the N64 in both hardware and software. Had Sega of America not fucked up and tried to push the 32X instead, they could have replicated that success. The 32X is really the big problem in the long run. Sega CD had it's place and honestly would be looked on better if it weren't for the 32X. People lump it in with the 32X's failure but it really doesn't belong there.

Saturn could have held it's own and done well against the PS1 and N64, had Sega of America just gotten behind it from the beginning and prepped it for a solid launch. No one was going to beat Sony that generation. Sony had the money to dump into exclusivity deals, marketing deals, buying up devkit manufacturers, etc. The realistic scenario is to aim for 2nd place. Which Sega definitely could have done with the Saturn with decent software and a good launch. But Sega of America flushed any hopes of that down the drain with the 32X and other questionable financial decisions.

The lesson learned is to not split your own market share simply because one region is high on their own success and can't admit it's time to move on. The 32X is the wrench that fucks the entire thing up.
>>9677609
>NEC couldn't spin up production on a moment's notice either. The Dreamcast shortage was a real thing in this timeline.
Only at it's launch in Japan. It was fine by the time they got to the US. The shortages would have been even worse with 3DFX and NVidia. This is well documented with interviews from the people who were actually making the decisions at the time.

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 04:07:34 2023 No.9677632

>>9677583
>No, that's the 32X.
The 32X had an embedded sound processor actually. Most 32X games didn't use it.
>If the choice was Saturn or 32X, Saturn is hands down the better choice.
Saturn was almost 3x as pricy, and they still had to sell it at a loss at that price.
>Please provide the source for that fan fiction.
Nintendo's statement in 1995. Sega never disputed it. It's pretty believable because SH1, SH2, and SH4 were never used in any device but Sega's, and one Capcom arcade machine long after Sega stopped using the SH1 and SH2 chips in their arcade systems.
>The 32X as it was didn't sell because people decided to wait for PS1 and Saturn instead.
Don't make the Saturn or give the 32X a texture transformation ASIC maybe. Anyway, anything is better than the shitturn.
>For what it could do for the cost it was definitely better.
Arguably, the dreamcast graphics didn't need to be that good. It only needed to dethrone the N64 as quick as possible. Riva 128 was powerful enough for Half Life and Unreal 3, it was a great chip.
>That was the deciding factor for Sega going with NEC.
Source? Also NEC failed to supply the agreed amount of chips in time because the chip fabrication was difficult with the tools they had at the time. Riva 128 never had such issue, it was a popular GPU that saved NVIDIA.
Sorry but that's the cold hard truth.
>And would have been far too expensive and ridiculous to use in 1997.
With reduced instructions like any other CPU used in video game consoles? Not necessarily. The chip was used in 1998 on Mac, and it performed wonderfully.
>And you still would have had a system stuck in a mid generational gap just like the 3DO and Jaguar before it.
Sounds like the dreamcast. A Riva dreamcast would at least be cheap enough and not much harder to port PC games into.

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 04:12:35 2023 No.9677645

>>9677586
>The 32X is an even bigger mess in this area.
No, it was simpler to program for. Don't forget that to program the saturn you had to program like a dozen different ASICs on top of the same couple of SH-2 chips, this time with a less flexible master-slave system.
>The Saturn had decent C Libraries as early as 1994.
Certainly didn't help Sonic R, as it's produced by Japanese people in Japan, though they hired a British programmer.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 04:18:27 2023 No.9677659 >>9677592 >The thing was dead on arrival for both consumers and developers. Because it didn't have games. It would've been a hit in brazil and south asia.

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 04:20:15 2023 No.9677661

>>9677632
>The 32X had an embedded sound processor actually. Most 32X games didn't use it.
No, it has a PWM channel that can be used to do software mixing. There is no additional sound processor. And quite a few 32X games use the PWM channels.
>Saturn was almost 3x as pricy, and they still had to sell it at a loss at that price.
The same is true for the PS1. Both were about $500 to make at their Japanese launch and both were sold for about a $100 loss.
>Nintendo's statement in 1995.
Link.
> It's pretty believable because SH1, SH2, and SH4 were never used in any device but Sega's,
They were actually used in quite a few other devices. Quite a few arcade boards used them and they were used in a lot of embedded systems.
>Don't make the Saturn or give the 32X a texture transformation ASIC maybe.
You don't know what you're talking about and are just spitting bullshit now.
>Source?
Look up Hideki Sato interviews. He was the one that made the call and it was because he felt 3DFX was too far removed from chip production since they didn't do it themselves, and they wouldn't be able to spin up production fast enough.
>Riva 128 never had such issue, it was a popular GPU that saved NVIDIA.
How many were sold and produced compared to Dreamcast in the same time frame? This was an era were 3D Accelerator cards were a luxury, not the norm.
>Sounds like the dreamcast.
An even worse Dreamcast.
>not much harder to port PC games into.
It was already easy to port PC games to Dreamcast thanks to Windows CE. And no contrary to popular internet stupidity Windows CE wasn't bloated or slow. It was actually pretty lean and fast. Most developers were just stupid and didn't set up their build pipelines to exclude shit they didn't use like the network stack.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 04:24:38 2023 No.9677664 >>9677324 SEGA were much better at being a video game developer than a video game hardware company. The polar opposite of Sony, in fact.

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 04:29:38 2023 No.9677670

>>9677645
>No, it was simpler to program for.
No it wasn't. The minute you try to leverage the Genesis hardware or god forbid the Sega CD hardware it becomes a giant mess. Sure it's simple if you're just using the SH2s and software rendering, but that's not really good if you want to do 2D stuff, and you have serious limits with 3D thanks to RAM. If you want to do 2D you're either limited to 30fps or lower, or you need to leverage the Genesis hardware and that becomes a huge mess. There's a reason why games like Chaotix are completely unstable buggy messes.
>Don't forget that to program the saturn you had to program like a dozen different ASICs on top of the same couple of SH-2 chips, this time with a less flexible master-slave system.
The CPUs are identical and set up in the exact same way. The Master-Slave system is just as flexible if not more flexible due to having more RAM and not being bottlenecked by having to do everything.

There's nothing stopping you from doing a game the exact same way on Saturn as you would on 32X, it's just really stupid as it's handicapping yourself. You can easily do software rendering to HWRAM and DMA it over to VDP2 VRAM during Vblank. It's just why do it when you have hardware to do that 3D rendering for you and better?
>Certainly didn't help Sonic R, as it's produced by Japanese people in Japan, though they hired a British programmer.
Sonic R was done by Travelers tales. All Japan provided where 3D models and track/level designs. Oh, and it also uses a lot of C which you can see in the videos Jon Burton posted.
>>9677659
>Because it didn't have games.
It had games they stole from the Saturn to try and prop it up. It had freaking Doom at launch, one of the biggest games of the time. It still failed. It failed because it was an under powered, overpriced add-on. No one wanted it, they wanted PS1 and Saturn instead.

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 05:19:19 2023 No.9677739

>>9677661
>Both were about $500 to make at their Japanese launch and both were sold for about a $100 loss.
I think that was mostly R&D cost. Soon enough the production was cheaper than $100 while the saturn kept losing money.
>Link.
Upside magazine, october 1995 edition. Couldn't find a scan.
>quite a few other devices.
Mostly used SH-3 which wasn't used by sega, or the SH2 on arcade machines while sega had it on their consoles. It was practically exclusive to sega.
>You don't know what you're talking about and are just spitting bullshit now.
Nope, that's just how the 3DO and lynx produced transformed images. With ASICs.
>he felt 3DFX was too far removed from chip production since they didn't do it themselves
Intel had the i740 which was better than Riva 128 at some respects. They produced too much of it in fact.
>How many were sold and produced compared to Dreamcast in the same time frame?
"1997 - RIVA 128 LAUNCHES, 1 MILLION UNITS SOLD IN FIRST FOUR MONTHS"
https://www.nvidia.com/en-in/about-nvidia/corporate-timeline/
Sounds fast enough.
>An even worse Dreamcast
Yes, a much cheaper dreamcast that's still powerful enough to run any late 90s and early 2000s game. Also runs turok at 90 fps. That wouldn't bleed sega to death financially.
>It was already easy to port PC games to Dreamcast
That's my point. Riva 128 was easier to use because it had openGL and D3D compatibility from the get go, as opposed to PowerVR's miniGL. Devs only needed to modify the textures of their games to work with the card's quirks, mainly polygonal mipmapping, to avoid visual glitches.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 05:21:58 2023 No.9677745 File: 226 KB, 695x1219, rivaave.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9677739 >turok at 90 fps I mean 60

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 05:37:17 2023 No.9677772 >>9677324 >release better 32X and actually support it >spend time developing a new 3D system to be released in 98 >make it as powerful as reasonably possible, sell it at a loss, and cling onto it until 2004. Launch online services alongside the system.

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 05:39:59 2023 No.9677778

>>9677739
>I think that was mostly R&D cost.
No, it was production cost. This came from recent interviews from both Hideki Sato as well as interviews from former Sony employees. PS1 cost about 50,000 Yen to produce at launch, Saturn was about 54,800 Yen to produce at launch. So Saturn was maybe $40 more at launch. Both systems prices fell dramatically as RAM prices fell in the following years. Saturn's prices fell more rapidly as they cost reduced the main board and pushed out the Model 2 by early 1996. By that point the cost really wasn't an issue.
>Upside magazine, october 1995 edition. Couldn't find a scan.
So scan your own if you have it. Otherwise you're just talking out your ass.
>It was practically exclusive to sega.
And like the retard you are you're only looking at gaming hardware. The SuperH chipsets were used in quite a few embedded systems from cars, to appliances. It's still used to this day in embedded systems. The Saturn is what made that possible.
>Nope, that's just how the 3DO and lynx produced transformed images. With ASICs.
You don't even know what that means. Do you even know what an ASIC is? It's literally just a chip you stupid idiot.

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 05:42:08 2023 No.9677783

>>9677739
>>9677778
>Intel had the i740
And that would be even more pricey and stupid when you factor in other things you need to think about with low powered game consoles. There's a reason why PC hardware wasn't used in gaming systems until recently.
>Sounds fast enough.
Is that sales or actual units produced and shipped? There's a key difference. Secondly Dreamcast pumped out about 10 million units in about 2 years. So they would need to be able to meet that kind of chip demand. It also still doesn't address the fact that the RIVA is shit compared to the PowerVR2. Just go compare Quake 3 running on it. It's barely able to maintain 20fps at dogshit quality.
>Yes, a much cheaper dreamcast that's still powerful enough to run any late 90s and early 2000s game.
Dreamcast was already cheap enough for the time. Sega of America was just retarded and cut the price by $100 because they thought $299 was too expensive.
>openGL and D3D compatibility from the get go
Dreamcast already had that. Direct 3D was available with Windows CE and the SDKs it had were good and easy to work with. You're talking out your ass and clearly know jack shit about these systems and their hardware.

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 05:44:31 2023 No.9677790

>>9677772
>release better 32X and actually support it
Now reality appears and no one buys the 32X at all because it's garbage hardware with no third party support. They all by a PS1 instead and Sega has nothing to compete against it the entire generation.
>spend time developing a new 3D system to be released in 98
So now we have the Dreamcast again, only this time in an even worse position financially.
>make it as powerful as reasonably possible, sell it at a loss, and cling onto it until 2004. Launch online services alongside the system.
It goes under in 2001 for the exact same reasons.

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 05:50:23 2023 No.9677802

>>9677324
You can have the best hardware around, and it doesn't matter for shit without the games.
This is why saturn and dreamcast both fucked up, and playstation climbed out of the muck to curbstomp them - sony had a shitload of games for everybody no matter what the fuck they wanted to play. Sega got too up their own ass and focused on certain niches without appealing to everybody, even though they'd just come from an incredibly successful Genesis that did have something for everyone.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 05:56:34 2023 No.9677814 >>9677361 they didnt have to beat sony they just had to do a little bit better.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 05:58:00 2023 No.9677816 >>9677783 >until recently 2001 was recent? The Xbox 360 was recent? >there's a key difference The key difference is that you need to produce and ship units to sell them? >it's barely able to maintain 20fps at dogshit quality So does the PowerVR2.

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 06:03:05 2023 No.9677820
File: 47 KB, 851x356, 18 months dc.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>9677585
dreamcast was still selling 100,000s per week, not an exaggeration, they solid like 10 million in 18 months - sega just pulled the plug because of corrupt niggers like Peter Moore and him selling out to xbox / microsoft

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 06:13:13 2023 No.9677831

>>9677778
>This came from recent interviews from both Hideki Sato
The only one I could find is in japanese pdf, so I couldn't read it and I'm just going to go with your arguments.
All I could find in english seems to indicate the otherwise.
https://mechafatnick.co.uk/2021/05/12/the-saturn-is-not-our-future-sales-costs-and-the-demise-of-the-sega-saturn/
"In order for the Saturn to break even, Sega would have had to remove around $280 from the cost of the manufacturing process by June 1997 and then somehow squeeze another $20 dollars the following year. The Saturn seems to be hardware destined to lose money then."
>No, it was production cost.
Then it's simple, sega shouldn't have tried to make the dreamcast so expensive. Sony had the money sega didn't.
>So scan your own if you have it. Otherwise you're just talking out your ass.
The burden of proof is on you. Upside magazine is an existing magazine, it's been quoted everywhere, now if you can prove that the quote in that specific edition of the magazine doesn't exist I will concede.
>And like the retard you are you're only looking at gaming hardware.
No I'm looking at the specific versions of the chip.
>It's literally just a chip you stupid idiot.
I know what it is. The saturn had a ton of them in their two VDP chips, plus a programmable math matrix chip. I think it only needed a stripped down VDP1 without the transparency and other unnecessary functions. Keeping the cost and complexity down.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 06:16:54 2023 No.9677838 >>9677820 No. Piracy hurt the console like fuck, and once PS2 came out it was all over.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 06:26:39 2023 No.9677847 >>9677838 >piracy hur- Already refuted a thousand times. Piracy isn't real.

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 06:29:09 2023 No.9677852

>>9677783
>There's a reason why PC hardware wasn't used in gaming systems until recently.
What do you think the PowerVR2 is.
>And that would be even more pricey and stupid when you factor in other things you need to think about with low powered game consoles.
That was the cheapest option available in 1997 with some decent results at some applications.
>Is that sales or actual units produced and shipped? There's a key difference.
The dreamcast was *selling* slower than that. Within a year they could only sell a million units in Japan.
>Dreamcast pumped out about 10 million units in about 2 years
3 years + clearing up the remaining stock after the production was ended actually. It was selling pretty slow.
>It's barely able to maintain 20fps at dogshit quality.
You were looking at a 1024x768 benchmark on youtube. DC's real resolution was 480p or 480i.
>Sega of America was just retarded and cut the price by $100 because they thought $299 was too expensive.
With a cheaper GPU, gutted network function, less gimicky memory card, and less VRAM, $199 wouldn't be painful. PowerVR2 was far from the cheapest GPU, going by neon 250's retail price. The high end Riva TNT2 was cheaper and really outperformed it.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 06:35:04 2023 No.9677860 >>9677852 2.3 years is closer to 2 than 3

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 06:35:15 2023 No.9677861 >>9677783 >>9677852 intel i740 480p Quake 3 with trilinear texture filtering and maximum everything. https://youtu.be/cetnUkmV_2Q?t=821

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 06:43:04 2023 No.9677871

>>9677324
when we saw that sega CD meant fmv games, a lot of people I know didnt care for it. the price tag was a lot for shit nobody was really looking forward to. by the time the 32x was released I myself was mad at sega for trying to make people buy console add on after console add on. just make games, you faggots. by the time the saturn was out it was already seen as a weeb enthusiasts wet dream and not something for normies. sega did it to themselves, almost as dumb as atari in their downfall

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 06:43:43 2023 No.9677872

>>9677324
Sega did nothing wrong
Playstation was just too good...
What Sony did during 1995 to 2005 was unthinkable.
Without Sony, we would be living in a dystopian gaming environment, where nazintendo would have spread its selfish ego freely, supressing the ambitions of all game developers.

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 06:44:17 2023 No.9677873

>>9677816
>2001 was recent? The Xbox 360 was recent?
Those don't use off the shelf PC hardware. The closest one is maybe the original Xbox and even it's highly customized.
>The key difference is that you need to produce and ship units to sell them?
They key difference is that number could be orders placed, but not actually shipped.
>So does the PowerVR2.
The PowerVR2 with the rest of the Dreamcast hardware handles Quake 3 better than a Riva 128 easily. Yes it has it's dips, but stays above 20fps and tends to hit 30fps a lot more often with significantly better image quality.
>All I can find is this!
Literally google Hideki Sato Saturn Interview and it's one of the first things to come up.
>They would have had to cut by $280.
And they pretty much did that. Falling RAM prices alone make up most of that. RAM prices fell from about $50/MB to under $1/MB by 1997. The Saturn had 4.5MB of RAM in it. So falling RAM prices alone could have cut the cost of the system by about $200 by 1997. Throw in the other cost cutting measures and it's not hard to realize they could have hit that goal, especially if the US market was doing better. And if you compare price cuts to RAM prices, you can see the price cuts align almost perfectly for both Saturn and PS1.
>The burden of proof is on you.
No it's on you. You're the one quoting it, and it's not mentioned anywhere else on the internet in regards to it. Provide the proof.

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 06:48:58 2023 No.9677879

>>9677831
>>9677873
>No I'm looking at the specific versions of the chip.
Which is completely retarded. That's like looking at only the ARM60 and saying ARM was dead after 3DO because nothing else used it.
>I know what it is. The saturn had a ton of them in their two VDP chips, plus a programmable math matrix chip
So did the PS1. What the hell do you think the GTE is? What the hell do you think it's sound chip and GPU are? The only chips you really need to program for on Saturn are the SH-2 CPUs. The SCU DSP is pretty much a useless hold over from an earlier design. There's no real reason to use it as the 2nd SH2 will do anything the DSP can do better. VDP1 and VDP2 have quirks but it's no different than other systems with their unique video hardware. The Saturn really isn't that difficult to program for, the complexities mostly stem from dealing with VDP1, it's slow and the way it renders is a very different approach from other systems.
> I think it only needed a stripped down VDP1 without the transparency and other unnecessary functions.
Which shows how little you know about the hardware. VDP1 is literally the choke point of the Saturn. Stripping it down more would make it even more crippled.

It's blatantly obvious you don't know what you're talking about and are just regurgitating old meme opinions.

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 06:53:06 2023 No.9677887

>>9677873
>not mentioned anywhere else on the internet in regards to it
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_64#cite_ref-Brandt_13-1
https://segaretro.org/History_of_the_Sega_Saturn/Development
https://books.google.com/books?id=VRJoRICMbzYC&pg=PA315&lpg=PA315&dq=%22Nintendo+Battles+for+its+Life%22&source=bl&ots=0bflIio9kR&sig=ACfU3U2Cu21B8ldK9ZvT0CS0zJOqLosEkA&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=%22Nintendo%20Battles%20for%20its%20Life%22&f=false

That's a 2003 book.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 06:56:26 2023 No.9677895 >>9677879 saturn homebrewers are saying cpu is the bottleneck

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 07:00:18 2023 No.9677898

>>9677852
>What do you think the PowerVR2 is.
A GPU aimed at working in a low power embedded environment. Which is why it lives on in smartphones these days.
>That was the cheapest option available in 1997 with some decent results at some applications.
How well did it work in a low power environment? How expensive was it per chip?
>The dreamcast was *selling* slower than that. Within a year they could only sell a million units in Japan.
What matters here though is production. Sega produced over 10 million Dreamcasts in about 2 years. So these other chips need to match that.
>3 years + clearing up the remaining stock after the production was ended actually. It was selling pretty slow.
Again you're talking sales, I'm talking production. Those systems were produced in under 2 years. They didn't sell fast enough though and they had left over stock that took them into 2002 to sell. Most of them were produced before the end of 2000.
>You were looking at a 1024x768 benchmark on youtube. DC's real resolution was 480p or 480i.
I was looking at captures from hardware of the era running at 640x480.
>With a cheaper GPU
The GPU wasn't the high cost in the Dreamcast. It was 56K modem. Secondly $299 wouldn't be an issue cost wise, Sega of America just wanted to gloat about sales without thinking about how much they were bleeding the company dry. The theoretical system you're envisioning would be even more crippled going up against the PS2 than the Dreamcast already was.
>>9677861
With a 1GHz Celeron CPU.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 07:02:25 2023 No.9677907 >>9677898 Smartphones haven't used PowerVR in years

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 07:02:37 2023 No.9677908 >>9677324 No. They simply didnt have the money to compete with snoys marketing budget. Sega hardware wasnt to blame.

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 07:16:04 2023 No.9677945

>>9677887
Then dig up the article. Wikipedia has been wrong before and SegaRetro is even worse. Looking at actual interviews the best I can find is that Sega's engineers found the chip too costly and inadequate, and that Sega's president wanted their own custom chips(which is probably being misinterpreted as licensing). The bit about it being too costly and inadequate however is backed up in Hideki Sato interviews, and the original story from Tom Kalinske.
>>9677895
>saturn homebrewers are saying cpu is the bottleneck
That's XL2 and that's because of the heavy amount of culling and BSP logic he does to avoid hitting VDP1's extremely low fillrate. You don't have to be that aggressive on PS1 because it has fillrate out the wazoo.
>>9677907
But they did use them because they worked very well for a low power consumption system.

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 08:50:27 2023 No.9678081

They lost the war the moment they couldn't field a proper Sonic game.
Up until S3/S&K they could at least pretend they were decent competitors, but after that they couldn't make a decent Sonic game to save their life so they lost the only reason anyone even got their consoles to begin with.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 09:15:06 2023 No.9678114 >>9677324 They're all good they just don't have a big library other than genesis

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 09:16:07 2023 No.9678116 >>9677908 OP is always stupid. Either baiting or just f'n stupid

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 09:21:38 2023 No.9678120 >>9677324 32X was the only mistake amongst those machines. Mega CD was absolutely the right move at that time in parallel with the Turbografix.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 09:25:42 2023 No.9678124 >>9677908 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyv6ZehQyTQ They chose to make this weird shit as their marketing campaign, it wasn't a budget issue. They were retarded.

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 09:28:55 2023 No.9678127

>>9677898
>RAM prices fell from about $50/MB to under $1/MB by 1997.
It was never anywhere that expensive after 1992, unless you can provide some proof. Let me just take the shortcut and show this readily available list of the retail prices of RAM:
https://jcmit.net/memoryprice.htm
It's not $50/MB, and don't forget that they got cheaper at higher volume.
>How well did it work in a low power environment? How expensive was it per chip?
https://www.computer.org/publications/tech-news/chasing-pixels/famous-graphics-chips-Intel740
$34 per unit in a 10K bulk at launch day, all the way down to $7 in Taiwan black markets within a few months. It kept getting bundled with pentium ii PCs.
https://www.computer.org/publications/tech-news/chasing-pixels/famous-graphics-chips-Intel740
Riva 128ZX was a great alternative too, selling for $32 per unit in a large volume, but the prices never came down so quickly like the i740.
>Sega produced over 10 million Dreamcasts in about 2 years.
I'm sure intel was bigger than hitachi and NEC ever were. The AGP cards were so abundant they got sold off at the black markets.
>I was looking at captures from hardware of the era running at 640x480.
Here's something from the era.
https://www.anandtech.com/show/202/7
72 fps on Turok, 52 fps on Forsaken, and 30 fps on Quake 2. For a $7 card it's not too shabby. SH-4 is supposedly faster than Pentium II, texture optimization could be done for the console port of these games, and the motherboard could be optimized for the card. Sega used to work with a similar system with the Real3D tech.

>>9677945
>Then dig up the article.
>Wikipedia has been wrong before and SegaRetro is even worse.
It was quoted in a book written in 2003 and Richard L. Brandt is a legit journalist. I'm not going to fly to the US and scrounge the libraries for a magazine published in 1995 just to show it to some schizo on the internet.

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 10:13:32 2023 No.9678169

>>9678127
>Here's something from the era.
It's still bad compared to a Voodoo2 (which was an actual contender for the DC design) and the Voodoo2 was less capable than the PowerVR2.
Even the 8 MB version of the Voodoo2 (pre-prod Diamond Monster 3D II) was twice as fast as that AGP Cache tech dead end.
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/creative-labs-3d-blaster-voodoo2,59.html

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 11:32:29 2023 No.9678261

>>9678169
It didn't need to be more powerful than the voodoo2 or powervr2. If sega wanted to survive they had to realize the DC couldn't possibly have competed with the PS2. It needed to stay within the 5th gen, it only needed to be more powerful than the PS1 and N64, which the i740 and Riva 128 happily delivered. Plus those two consoles were screwed by the small amount of memory. Also, SDRAM was cheaper and faster than the old edo ram and nintendo's greatest mistake, the rambus ram.

Both the i740 and riva 128 outperformed the first voodoo card. They were good enough for direct PC ports. Imagine if the DC was launched in 1997 with Quake, System Shock, Dark Forces II, and Interstate 76. The DC needed better launch titles I think. Regardless the GPU, it would be leaps and bounds above its competitors back in 1997. It would also be cheaper to manufacture and not late enough to make people consider waiting for the PS2.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 11:34:02 2023 No.9678264 The fact Sega Japan and Sega America were fighting 24/7 is what killed their consoles.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 11:53:41 2023 No.9678291 >>9678261 > It needed to stay within the 5th gen Why? Sega already had a 5th gen console and it flopped, due to retardation on both the design and marketing sides.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 12:02:06 2023 No.9678302 >>9677324 Not to mention the amount of wasted resources on endless Mega Drive revisions

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 12:03:30 2023 No.9678305 >>9677407 While I agree, the CD was dead in the water for them because of the massive court case

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 12:06:06 2023 No.9678308 >>9677542 The power was not the issue It was cost of putting another chip in there and having only a few good games Wasted potential, especially after seeing how good the PC engine CD is

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 12:45:40 2023 No.9678326

>>9678291
>Why?
Because competition in the 6th gen was going to be even more fierce and sega couldn't possibly have survived with their mid-gen machine. They actually had a chance to recapture the market in 1997, it was a good year to launch a new system because cheap GPU and cheap RAM were readily available, and voodoo had set the standard for PC graphic acceleration software. They should've also launched the console for the American and European market first where PC games were a lot more popular rather than wasting this good hardware on ports of outdated arcade games. Arcade games and sonic were out of fashion, everyone wanted to play the cool games like Quake, Duke 3D, and Tomb Raider.

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 12:58:11 2023 No.9678347

>>9677324
I would've liked to have seen Sega push the Mega CD a bit harder. What I've played from it is very good, but the industry was focused too much on FMV games and unfortunately its worst title are all anyone really talks about.

My major issue with it is that if you didn't have a save cart, some games like Shining Force CD will take up all your system's save memory.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 13:02:05 2023 No.9678351 >>9678326 >everyone wanted to play the cool games like Quake, Duke 3D, and Tomb Raider. But those already existed on the Saturn....

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 13:18:27 2023 No.9678372 >>9678351 They were everywhere to be fair, but the DC would be the closest one to PC quality. It could also use some Blood, System Shock, Dark Forces II, Interstate '76, and Terminator Future Shock/Skynet.

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 13:53:19 2023 No.9678419

>>9677831
>The burden of proof is on you. Upside magazine is an existing magazine, it's been quoted everywhere, now if you can prove that the quote in that specific edition of the magazine doesn't exist I will concede
NTA, not so long ago I read a quote about Nights that sounded back-assward so I did some googling. It was quoted repeatedly with the source listed on wikipedia as a print magazine. Irrefutable according to wikipedia's guidelines. Except in the intervening years the magazine was scanned and put on archive.org. It literally said the opposite to the quote. Not even "open to interpretation", literally said the exact opposite. It wasn't world changing, it hardly mattered and I've forgotten the details, but I learned not to take 10 positive google results and a cited wikipedia statement as truth because they might all just be quoting each other's mistakes.
Plus, it doesn't help that so often the actual assholes who worked on these games/consoles just make shit up in interviews either because they think the real answer is too technical or they themselves have forgotten crucial details. Programmers understand this. Comments are not the algorithm, the code is. Comments lie, code dissembles but rarely lies.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 14:23:43 2023 No.9678473 This is one of those threads that should be stickied. a lot of good info here

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 15:11:52 2023 No.9678590 >>9677324 They also needed to focus on making at least one software good, something they were seemingly never able to do.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 15:17:38 2023 No.9678603 Saturn=Genesis>Sega CD=Dreamcast>32X

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 15:48:52 2023 No.9678680 >>9678603 >Dreamcast > Mega Drive > Master System > Game Gear > 32X > Mega CD > SG-1000 > Shiturn Ftfy lad.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 16:04:11 2023 No.9678721 >>9677820 Sega was beyond retarded they could had continued with the dreamcast and it could had been a moderate success like the xbox and gamecube but they decided to go all in just to try to be the number 1 console.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 16:10:39 2023 No.9678737 >>9677583 >It would basically be a 3DO M2. Speaking of, is there any truth to the rumor that 3DO approached Sega at some point in late 1994 with an early version of the M2?

Anonymous Mon Feb 20 18:06:05 2023 No.9679023
File: 3.55 MB, 610x428, 8d17997b40e00bc6505f6a6e75e40efbc03b5b38.gifv.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>9677324
Mega CD was a good idea, just mishandled, Sega's main market was the North American one and Sega of America destroyed the add-on's image with all the shitty FMVs.

Shit like this is impressive as fuck.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 18:36:46 2023 No.9679128 >>9678721 Dreamcast hardware was already outdated by 2002. GT3 and ICO showed how far behind the Dreamcast was Imagine how a port of NFSU or SH3 would have looked on a dreamcast Sega just saved themselves from further embarrassment.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 18:40:04 2023 No.9679140 >>9679128 >Ico Weird example. It could have easily been ported to DC.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 20 18:43:54 2023 No.9679162 >>9679023 This sort of game was very difficult to code. You needed a heavy-duty programmer to make all the different bits properly talk to each other.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 21 00:30:00 2023 No.9679993 >>9677398 No. Sega's retarded business practices killed the Saturn's chance at success not it being a bitch to program for.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 21 00:33:07 2023 No.9679998 >>9679993 If they had actually pushed for more Arcade game ports it would've been a much more popular system

Anonymous Tue Feb 21 00:38:41 2023 No.9680012

>>9678419
In this case, the only chance it could be wrong is if nintendo was lying. However, as I mentioned before about the exclusivity of SH1, 2, and 4 chips, I think it's quite believable that Sega made them exclusive to their own systems. If they really were good chips, how come they could only be found on car fuel injection systems and a scant number of other applications? They would've competed directly with the PowerPC and MIPS if they were that great.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 21 00:41:25 2023 No.9680015 >>9679998 Lmao its the opposite. Nobody cared about arcade shits anymore. Final Fantasy, Gran Turismo, and Spyro were the shit.

Anonymous Tue Feb 21 00:50:41 2023 No.9680031

>>9677872
>Without Sony, we would be living in a dystopian gaming environment, where nazintendo would have spread its selfish ego freely, supressing the ambitions of all game developers.
good, so we wouldn't have those arrogant shitty movie games we have today. Fuck Kojima.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 21 00:56:28 2023 No.9680052 >>9680015 disagree, if they went all in on the arcade games they could've cornered their own market

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 21 00:57:41 2023 No.9680054 File: 160 KB, 957x915, saintbernard.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >muh what if Floigan DLC just dropped 6 years ago. SEGA is at the top of their game.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 21 01:01:56 2023 No.9680064 >>9680031 Look at what nintendo did to Body Harvest and how they almost ruined GoldenEye. Noncetendo hated ambitious games that weren't sterile enough for toddlers. PS1 devs had so much more freedom.

Anonymous Tue Feb 21 01:10:20 2023 No.9680086

>>9677361
>The Saturn hardware is fine,
No its not. While system is capable, creating 3D games for the system requires extra steps and work. The same results could be achieved on the Playstation with much less effort.

Your job as a console manufacturer is to make things easier. Not harder on developers.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 21 01:22:21 2023 No.9680108 >>9680086 >Your job as a console manufacturer is to make things easier. Not harder on developers. Can't say I've ever heard that before

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 21 01:25:10 2023 No.9680113 >>9677376 >Cancel megacd, 32x Agreed. Both were failures and wasted Sega's limited cash reserves. No one I knew owned one either.

Anonymous Tue Feb 21 01:26:34 2023 No.9680120 [DELETED]

I'm having diarrhea right now. I made spicy queso dip last night, and ate it with nacho cheese Doritos and washed it down with cheap beer. At the time, it felt good, it felt like the right decision. Now, I'm regretting it. I've been regretting it ever since I plopped my fat, hairy, pimpled ass down on the cold toilet seat and started blowing pure liquid filth into the bowl. It stinks like you wouldn't believe. It smells like dried dog turds mixed with bleach. It's so thick and sludgy and salty and oily. It just keeps pouring out. I don't know what to do other than to accept the circumstances of my situation and keep on truckin'. I guess, in the end, that's all anybody can do.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 21 02:28:12 2023 No.9680247 >this board still dicksucking the sadturd Possibly more pathetic than /pol/ and their Donald Dump generals

>>	The guy who says based Tue Feb 21 02:31:36 2023 No.9680256 >>9680120 based

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 21 04:26:39 2023 No.9680474 File: 196 KB, 557x357, file.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >We are five years away from the 21st century

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 21 04:27:40 2023 No.9680475 File: 464 KB, 1200x675, file.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9680474

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 21 04:40:47 2023 No.9680493 >>9680086 Ps2 was hard to make games for.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 21 04:43:37 2023 No.9680498 >>9680493 PS1 was enormously and wildly successful. Sony had the juice to dictate the terms. Sega did not.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 21 04:53:26 2023 No.9680515 >>9680493 Ps2 is a different kind of difficult. A significant portion of Saturns difficulty is related to game design. If you want to make good use of VDP2, then you are faced with significant design constraints.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 21 04:54:38 2023 No.9680521 >>9680498 What kind of flawed logic is this SEGA’s previous console was also wildly successful

Anonymous Tue Feb 21 05:09:04 2023 No.9680549

>>9680521
>SEGA’s previous console was also wildly successful
>wildly
No. Sega sold 30 million Sega Genesis worldwide.

Sega sold 8 million Sega Saturns worldwide.

Sony sold 120+ million Playstations worldwide.

Sony bent Sega over its knee and spanked them hard. So Sony had the juice to decide what they wanted. Sega did not.

Game companies did want to be left behind and did whatever Sony wanted. THAT is what wildly successful means.

Anonymous Tue Feb 21 05:16:29 2023 No.9680564
File: 34 KB, 452x218, file.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>9680493
Yeah but the saving grace was the heavy duty work Sony did in the background for their developers to keep things simple enough for games to be made on the platform. As far as the hardware itself though, the only thing it had over its competitors or even the general computing world was the fact that its EE's VPUs were so good at their jobs pushing floating point calculations at ~6 billion FLOPS or 6 GFLOPs, they never got outmatched in the general computing space until the GeForce 8 or Radeon HD 2000 along with Intel's SSE SIMD hardware in 2006-2007 when the PS3 launched. That kept the console relevant over its competitors and essentially futureproofed it by developers basically offloading a ton of graphics tasks and CPU tasks onto it when Sony was able to set the standards that generation.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 21 05:19:38 2023 No.9680573 damn this is an excellent thread I'm learning a lot about the specifics of the past from sega consoles

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 21 05:21:15 2023 No.9680575 >>9680549 And they also made games, Sony barely did that at all Not to mention Arcades

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 21 05:30:46 2023 No.9680593 >>9680575 What are Crash Bandicoot and Gran Turismo, music CDs? >arcades Namco did that for Sony, from PS1 to PS3 there are Namco cabs with PS hardware.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 21 05:47:14 2023 No.9680621 >>9680549 >Sony sold 120+ million Playstations worldwide. Note: this is Sony sales for Playstation 1. Sony also sold 160 million Playstation 2 consoles worldwide. If we put them together, that's a combined total of 280 Million PS1/PS2 consoles sold.

Anonymous Tue Feb 21 14:16:19 2023 No.9681460

>>9677838
This - newfags are forgetting that the original Dreamcast models allowed you to burn ISOs onto blank dvds and play them as normal games (I have one of these models, its very handy)

Imagine being some dev studio and being asked to ship your title to DC when everyone could just pirate it with nothing to stop them

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 21 14:19:34 2023 No.9681464 File: 23 KB, 387x425, Gor_donemo.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Will Sega ever re-enter hardware?

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 21 14:20:58 2023 No.9681467 File: 308 KB, 628x767, Dreamcast vs PS2 attach rate.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9677838 >>9681460 Revisionaries at work. Piracy doesn't exist.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 21 14:24:31 2023 No.9681478 >>9681467 I literally have one of the models where this is possible and done it many times Piracy was a major concern for Sega at the time due to CD burning software becoming more generally available

Anonymous Tue Feb 21 14:28:32 2023 No.9681489

>>9681478
Dude, I don't give a fuck about your anecdote or anyone's, and neither does Sega. All the people I know bought 20 licensed Dreamcast games at full price, does that matter?
Sales number says it's not piracy, Sega says it's not piracy, Sega employees say it's not piracy, it just isn't.

Anonymous Tue Feb 21 14:29:38 2023 No.9681491

>>9677324
The more I think about how SEGA could have fared better post-genesis the more I realize it was never one thing, it was a series of mistakes that killed them. Both the CD and 32X were misguided attempts to life support a dying console, the resources that did go towards future development were pissed away on the Saturn, then they try to recover the fumble by....selling a good console at a loss and trying to make up for it with first party game sales. I cant think of one single point they didnt fuck up. The Genesis was just so successful it allowed them to bleed money for three generations.

Anonymous Tue Feb 21 14:37:28 2023 No.9681508

>>9681489
>Dude, I don't give a fuck about your anecdote or anyone's, and neither does Sega

Except Sega did because the devs making games for it had legitimate concerns that their games would get pirated you fucking retard

I never said that was the entire reason for DC failing, there were multiple factors, but you would have to be retarded to think not putting any kind of piracy protection on your console wouldn't hurt sales

Anonymous Tue Feb 21 14:45:01 2023 No.9681526

>>9681508
>the devs making games for it had legitimate concerns that their games would get pirated
Never heard of it. Did anybody at all say it? I'm seeing Capcom games, Konami, Namco, SNK, Acclaim, Activision, Midway, etc. Is anybody missing?
>EA
Well before piracy existed, and because of the 3Dfx deal.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 21 14:48:31 2023 No.9681532 >>9681526 >Konami They had games on the Dreamcast?

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 21 16:11:45 2023 No.9681708 >>9681532 Pop'n, nigga. Also it was gonna get what could've been the greatest 3D Castlevania game of all time.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 22 03:44:57 2023 No.9683575 >>9681708 >what could've been the greatest 3D Castlevania game of all time. Uh huh, that’s why they abandoned it instead of putting it on PS2 or GC >pop’n Who?

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 22 03:47:41 2023 No.9683581 >>9683575 Lament of Innocence came out in 2003. The Dreamcast was already super duper dead. >>9681532 Dance Dance Revolution

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 22 04:00:31 2023 No.9683607 >>9683581 Lament of innocence is nothing like what the demo is >DDR Had no idea DDR was Konami

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 22 04:33:39 2023 No.9683676 >>9677351 i had one, but i had only like 5 games for it including the 3 game pack-in kek. i got a playstation the year after and never looked back.

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 22 04:36:26 2023 No.9683681 >>9683607 Konami invented like half of the entire music game genre with Bemani games

>>	Anonymous Wed Feb 22 04:41:33 2023 No.9683694 >>9683681 Yeah I knew beatmania was Konami, just didn’t know DDR was

Anonymous Wed Feb 22 20:01:31 2023 No.9685580

>>9681464
They're selling a second run of the genesis mini already, that is probably the definitive mini console on the market due to its storage space used for the CD games.

They could concievably release a Saturn mini with 4 usb controller ports and maybe 1 original saturn controller, make you buy the multi-controller(s) separate for MP, and let you use Genesis mini controllers of course. It would have to be able to do (modded) pretty much the whole N64 library to be worth buying though, and maybe some Dreamcast like Sonic Adventure. If this came out within the next few years it would probably sell pretty well, even at a higher price than the other mini systems.

Anonymous Thu Feb 23 01:01:27 2023 No.9686279
File: 55 KB, 650x381, Tom-Kalinske-Sega.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>9681491
This.
>Hi, I'm Tom Kalinske and every decision I made at Sega of America was right. Everything that went wrong was because of the goddamn Japs. You wanna buy a vacuum cleaner?

>>9685580
The V2 mini is a limited run with limited distribution. It's excellent. I have one. But you're right about Dreamcast. I don't see a Saturn selling much unless it's premium priced and they use something like Kickstarter. Maybe they could do that for both systems. I imagine for Dreamcast they could easily move at least 50K units and with it being a limited run collectible, nobody would mind a $200-250 SRP. There's no real cost issue these days to emulate that besides memory and M2 could pull it off no problem. Saturn wouldn't generate the same buzz, but it's also possible.

Anonymous Thu Feb 23 01:20:56 2023 No.9686315

The Sega CD was based. I don't remember much of the advertising from the time, so I'm not sure about this, but they should have marketed it as an arcade/neo geo competitor to compliment the genesis.

The 32x should've never come out. They should've put out their next console late/95 or early 96 and called is Sega CD2 instead of gay-ass Saturn. Make it backwards compatible too.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 23 01:29:59 2023 No.9686331 >>9677376 >No DVD drive >Easy pirating >Pissed EA off >Rely too much on dying Arcade business >They got everything right for the Dreamcast Kek.

Anonymous Thu Feb 23 01:30:02 2023 No.9686332

>>9681491
The 32X cost very little to produce and was much more affordable than the playstation. Sega was afraid that people wouldn't buy expensive systems. Remember that the launch price for the NES was $79, and the Genesis was $179. No console above that bracket had ever been successful before the playstation was launched.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 23 01:32:31 2023 No.9686340 >>9686331 >Easy pirating The Dreamcast had an insanely high attach rate. The "piracy killed the Dreamcast" meme has always been incorrect.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 23 02:16:30 2023 No.9686452 >>9686340 >insanely high It was just moderate. Also needed way more hardware sales for it to actually matter.

Anonymous Thu Feb 23 02:33:07 2023 No.9686478

>>9680108
>Can't say I've ever heard that before

He's right though. Harder to develop for = longer development time = more expensive. Especially if you're releasing on multiple platforms on the same date, a developer will have to devote more resources to the harder system to deliver the same quality on the same day. Saturn was in the nightmare situation where they were harder to develop on and being outsold massively, so a developer was looking at spending more money to make a Saturn version, which they'd then have to try to recoup through selling to much smaller base of owners. Bad times

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 23 02:35:01 2023 No.9686483 >>9683676 Sounds like you already had half of the Saturn's library when you jumped ship to PlayStation

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 23 02:57:31 2023 No.9686525 >>9681491 No kidding, Sega's management has a long on-going history with fucking-up. It's honestly amazing they're still around as a company

Anonymous Thu Feb 23 03:22:22 2023 No.9686563

>>9686525

It's kind of funny how Sega got tired of being a third-string company, recognized on some level that they didn't know what they were doing and hired Kalinske who pretty much single-handedly made them an industry leader

And then they said "We'll take it from here, Tom!" cut him out of the decision-making loop, and promptly drove the company into the grave

Anonymous Thu Feb 23 04:26:24 2023 No.9686692

>>9677351
Yeah was the same for me, everyone had either an N64 or a PS1. I didn't find out about the Saturn until I bought a Dreamcast in early 2001 (because they were all discounted to $99 and incredibly easy to pirate for, not because I had any affinity for Sega). What's interesting is that I knew about the Genesis despite owning an SNES, I knew about the Dreamcast before I bought one, but the Saturn just never fucking registered. I don't think I even saw one in the flesh until almost 2010, and even then it wasn't because I knew someone who owned one, it's because I saw it in a retro games store.

It makes sense that the Saturn was a cryptid though, because they only sold like 1.8 million of them in North America. The N64, which was a VERY distant second place to the PS1, sold 11 times as many units. I can't think of another major console in the past 30 years that failed so hard in NA. Even Nintendo managed to shift 6 million Wii Us and nobody had a fucking clue what those were either.

Anonymous Thu Feb 23 04:44:23 2023 No.9686728
File: 83 KB, 256x300, 1589005180235.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>9677324
I didn't realize how bad Sega's obsession with hardware was until I looked into the Saturn. Almost immediately after it came out, they release a new controller with analog input. Then, if you want, you can play Virtua Fighter with an arcade controller. After that, you can play Sega Rally with a steering wheel. Then there's the mouse accessory you can use with Sakura Wars. And if you want a keyboard to go with that mouse, there's a keyboard for the Saturn you can use with some word processor game. And if you want more space to backup saves with, there's a floppy disk drive you can copy your data onto. It's fucking insanity.

It's amusing that Sega, the one company obsessed with making hardware, ended up being the only company that had to stop making gaming consoles.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 23 04:45:06 2023 No.9686730 >>9686728 You're fucking stupid anon

Anonymous Thu Feb 23 05:14:38 2023 No.9686794

>don't cancel the Genesis in 1996 when it's still selling like hotcakes in the west
>go all in on the 32X and scrap the Saturn, also release a stand-alone 32X for the people who didn't yet own a Genesis and an optional CD drive you plug into it from the top for playing the 32X+CD games
>release the 3dfx-powered Dreamcast as well as a handheld based on the 32X that can link with it (imagine a handheld with 3D power in the late '90s, Nintendo would've shat their fucking pants)

There, I just saved Sega, you're welcome.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 23 06:09:18 2023 No.9686878 >>9686794 >There, I just killed Sega four years earlier, you're welcome.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 23 06:58:44 2023 No.9686969 >>9686563 >And then they said "We'll take it from here, Tom!" cut him out of the decision-making loop, and promptly drove the company into the grave That Asian and Japanese work culture in nutshell.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 23 07:16:57 2023 No.9687020 >>9686340 The Utopia bootloader was released in late 2000. Dreamcast was discontinued early 2001. It simply didn't have enough time to become a problem. Had the DC continued into 2002, you can bet it would turn into a big issue.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 23 07:28:08 2023 No.9687049 >32X DISTRUPTED SHATURD DEVELOPMENT Nope. The shartripe was going to be shit no matter what with that kind of architecture.

Anonymous Thu Feb 23 08:11:13 2023 No.9687130

>make the Genesis designed so the empty pins on the VDP for the second bank of VRAM that was never used connect to the expansion port used for the Sega CD
>create cheap 64kb VRAM expansion module that plugs into the expansion port, instruct all devs who want to use 128k VRAM to have their games fall-back on a 64k mode if the console doesn't have it plugged in for backwards compatibility
>design some cheap in-house enhancement chips for cartridges to help the Genesis keep fighting the SNES until the Saturn can launch
>don't waste any resources on the Sega CD, 32X, or SDP chip
>simplify programming for the Saturn by either making it a lot simpler design or making some programming libraries that handle the system in the most efficient way
>also make Saturn use standard triangles for 3D rendering so multiplatform ports are much easier to do
>make Saturn devkits be just slightly modified Saturns that can run burnt CD's so they can be sold for less than $500 per unit, making the Saturn a very cheap platform to develop for
>support Saturn with first party games all the way up to the launch of the Dreamcast
>say "fuck multi-purpose" and don't let the DC play anything other than GD-ROM discs, there's no need to be a music CD player or mixed media MIL-CD reading machine
>leave the network adapter out to save money and just make a cover that can be removed for a place to plug in a network adapter like the cover on the model 1 Genesis
>have the second IDE header connected by default, with a cover on the bottom where people can plug in a HDD for game saves and data from the internet
>remove the battery and screens from the VMU's and just make them regular memory cards
>give the controller better ergonomics and a second analog stick on the right hand side
>move the cord from the bottom of the controller to the top
This is how I monday morning quarterbacked Sega to victory.

Anonymous Thu Feb 23 09:28:38 2023 No.9687250

>>9677778
>The Saturn is what made that possible.

now thats a stretch.

>>9687130
>>make the Genesis designed so the empty pins on the VDP for the second bank of VRAM that was never used connect to the expansion port used for the Sega CD
>>create cheap 64kb VRAM expansion module that plugs into the expansion port, instruct all devs who want to use 128k VRAM to have their games fall-back on a 64k mode if the console doesn't have it plugged in for backwards compatibility
>>design some cheap in-house enhancement chips for cartridges to help the Genesis keep fighting the SNES until the Saturn can launch

interesting, but getting a retool and a new production run on a system that was already out for years was unlikely to float well, and there was no such thing as cheap any ram back then. Also, cart design didn't have any overt memory limitations (nes) to overcome, or hardware features (famicom sound chips) to add to the console to make it worth it. The genesis lacked for 2 things, color depth, and complex math horsepower(compared to mid/end life). You couldn't do anything about the color pallet. That leaves the SVP.

but none of this matters because when the Playstation comes along, it eats their lunch every time, just due to the captive manufacturing process with Sony costing so much less. Sega was paying stupid money to Hitachi when it came to the Saturn and 32x. And Nintendo found themselves in a similar cost fight with the N64. Neither of them could win. But Nintendo weathered the storm purely because of mobile console profits, and 1st party titles, especially Pokemon.

Anonymous Thu Feb 23 10:01:52 2023 No.9687295

>>9677351
>I didnt know a single friend who had the saturn. I didnt even it know it existed until almost 10 years later

Same. I had a Dreamcast but neighborhood kids thought that I'm owning a Saturn because they never heard of Dreamcast. And I thought they are being idiotic by making up non-existent console names.
That was really weird.

Anonymous Thu Feb 23 10:19:15 2023 No.9687321

>>9687130
Even if you do all that, Sega will still suffer badly against Sony. Sega might last a few years longer, but I still think Dreamcast is their last console.

Sony is a hardware juggernaut. They own their factories and can make things for much cheaper than everyone else.

Nintendo survived against Sony because:

1. Gameboy being a wild success

2. Nintendo owning Pokemon. And Pokemon made billions of dollars for Nintendo.

3. Nintendo refuses to use bleeding edge hardware for their consoles. They always choose 1 or 2 levels below the top end hardware. This is done to keep costs down.

Sega doesn't have those advantages. Sega's main source of income is the arcade industry. And Arcades started dying in the late 90s/early 2000s. Kids started just staying home and playing their consoles.

Your improvements are smart. They will save Sega money and keep them around longer. But Sega doesn't have the strength to fight Sony head to head and survive for long. Then Microsoft joins too? Sega can't fight them both.

The only way Sega to survive is if you give them another source of income besides arcades. Like if you made the Sega Gamegear a wild success. I'd be curious on how you would make the Gamegear successful.

Anonymous Thu Feb 23 12:28:34 2023 No.9687517

>>9677324
It was their focus on trying to be NEC but more that was the beginning of their downfall (hyper focusing on add ons for their only success). Even then, all they needed to do was not release the Saturn or Dreamcast and they would still be alive.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 23 19:13:47 2023 No.9688269 >>9686331 >EA EA pissing themselves, they wanted being the sole company doing sports game

Anonymous Thu Feb 23 19:24:24 2023 No.9688290

>>9687250
>interesting, but getting a retool and a new production run on a system that was already out for years was unlikely to float well, and there was no such thing as cheap any ram back then.
I meant make the Genesis launch with that design from the start, not make the model 2 have it. That way once RAM got cheap in the early 90's, Sega could roll out the VRAM expansion module and both produce and sell it cheap. Back when the Genesis first launched, RAM was about $200 a MB, by 1991 it had dropped to about $40. A 64KB RAM was about $25 back in 1981, so you can imagine just how cheap they would be by 1991. Sega would need to bank on the idea that RAM prices would drop, but it wouldn't be more of a gamble than any of their other decisions.

>>9687321
>I'd be curious on how you would make the Gamegear successful.
I wouldn't have launched it at all. Would have waited until the mid 90's and the launch of the Saturn to make a color handheld with a better screen and battery life. That way it could start moving on the market before Pokemon launched. Use a 386EX instead of a Z80, and graphics on par with the Genesis. Eat the handheld market while the competition responds with Pokemon and the GBC.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 23 19:39:39 2023 No.9688329 >>9687321 desu pokemon is the one and only reason nintendo is still around, they would've 100% went back to playing cards in the 90s otherwise.

Anonymous Thu Feb 23 19:41:54 2023 No.9688335
File: 537 KB, 960x720, 1676862995002483.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

The sega saturn was ground breaking though only suffering from its time and the dream cast was also groundbreaking tech but the issue with the dream cast is it was way WAY ahead of its time. The PS2, Xbox and the Gamecube all dropped 2 years after the dream cast at the exact same time and had slightly better hardware and the dream cast just could not compete. If sega would have waiting 2 years and updated the hardware specs to compete with the ps2 and gamecube they would still be around today.

Dreamcast was the Icarus of the gaming industry.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 23 20:01:26 2023 No.9688385 >>9688335 Dreamcast is more powerful than the PS2.

Anonymous Thu Feb 23 20:45:24 2023 No.9688467

>>9687130
>instruct all devs who want to use 128k VRAM to have their games fall-back on a 64k mode
This would not work. The entire games graphics would need to be totally redesigned to work with or without 128kb of vram.

> there's no need to be a music CD player
Playing CDs is basically free when you are already using CD hardware.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 23 21:04:32 2023 No.9688501 >>9688385 I thought it was weaker? I know that marketing wise it was behind the curve and that did a lot of damage.

>>	Anonymous Thu Feb 23 21:13:51 2023 No.9688516 >>9688501 It's weaker, don't mind him.

Anonymous Fri Feb 24 03:06:17 2023 No.9689171

>>9688290
>I wouldn't have launched i[game gear] at all.
This is the correct take. Sega was paranoid about tech wars to the point of jumping the gun. That's what killed them. If they waited a bit a launched something like the NGPC with their buying power and IPs to compete with GBC+? Totally different timeline.

>>9688335
I like the Icarus reference but practically Dreamcast could have outperformed PS2 as it was far easier to develop for with similar results. It was about licensing, marketing, and install base. Not performance. Xbox got all the above so I'll give you that. Unless I'm too intoxicated I believe anyone not Nintendo was losing money on hardware in that fight.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 24 04:54:30 2023 No.9689396 >>9688501 >>9688516 The Dreamcast's GPU shits all over the PS2's. Reminder that Yu Suzuki said that a 1:1 port of Shenmue II was impossible for PS2, which is why it went to the Xbox instead.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 24 05:10:15 2023 No.9689437 >>9688329 and the game boy.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 24 05:12:54 2023 No.9689442 >>9677361 Kys bitch ass

Anonymous Fri Feb 24 06:57:54 2023 No.9689609

>>9677361
Agree the 32x was wasted resources but even the Saturn was a bit rushed. It's far easier with the benefit of hindsight, but everyone was very horny for bits back then. The 32 bit era was a blip because consumer technology was moving at breakneck speed back then. If Sega kept their powder dry for a 64 bit disk-based system, they could've been contenders. Let's be honest, the N64 wasn't a marvel their famous hatred of adequate memory management and love of cartridges. No joy to develop for either, but it at least came out at the right time on the tech curve.

Anonymous Fri Feb 24 07:03:22 2023 No.9689618

>>9688467
>The entire games graphics would need to be totally redesigned to work with or without 128kb of vram.
Meh, the actual graphical data takes up more room on the cartridge than level layouts, and it wouldn't be a ton of work for them to make two sets of layouts of the same levels with all the 128kb stuff replaced with tiles from the 64kb stuff. The 64kb version would be more simple graphically, but that would just encourage people to buy the RAM expansion module. It's not like having more VRAM will allow for a bigger palette. The real trick would be to have Sega have all programmers testing for the 128kb VRAM from the moment the console launches to make sure all the old games still function properly when the module is installed. Otherwise the interleaved VRAM that happens when the second 64kb bank is installed will break everything.

>>9688467
>Playing CDs is basically free when you are already using CD hardware.
I agree, but I still wouldn't waste a second on designing a CD-player UI for the Dreamcast, and just block anything that wasn't a GD-ROM. Another alternative would had been to just put in a 1X DVD-ROM drive and bank on the tech getting cheaper over time. The issue there is 1X DVD-ROM drives were still fucking expensive in 1999. By the end of 2004 you could get one for less than $100, but Sega would have been in a really tough spot trying to stay alive while selling a console with a DVD drive in 1999 unless they were selling the DC for $500+.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 24 07:04:14 2023 No.9689621 >>9689396 >according to Sega employee, Sega's box is better

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 24 07:17:53 2023 No.9689643 >>9689618 The second bank of VRAM has to be enabled by register so installing 128kb has not effect on existing software.

Anonymous Fri Feb 24 12:27:13 2023 No.9689979

>>9688290
>I wouldn't have launched it at all.
It's 1989. Your boss says "It's Anon I'm putting you in charge of the Sega game gear project. We need to kill the Nintendo Game boy. We're all counting on you. They Executives want to launch it in 1 to 2 years. "

What do you do?

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 24 15:28:51 2023 No.9690272 >>9689979 No color, no backlight, cut the VRAM, undercut the Gameboy.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 24 17:34:58 2023 No.9690621 >>9689621 This was after the Dreamcast was shitcanned and Sega went 3rd party, though.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 24 17:39:00 2023 No.9690637 >>9690621 And you know employees aren't allowed to talk shit about their own products right?

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 24 19:08:42 2023 No.9690892 >"Sega's demise and its consequences have been a disaster for the videogames industry." -Yu Suzuki, circa 2020

Anonymous Fri Feb 24 19:11:23 2023 No.9690898

>>9689979
Release a better supported and marketed Sega version of the TurboGrafx Express with a far more robust library. But stripped down. The color screen is the most important feature. Not stealing the idea exactly, just something along those lines. And throw in some rechargeable Sega brand batteries for the premium bundle as a pack in or as an accessory kit to the basic sku. Usually when it comes to high/low strategy, I go low, but I'm reeeally not sure if Sega could even do that against Nintendo GB. And it wouldn't be on brand to do something like a G&W or Tiger. Benefit of hindsight, the Lynx was a factor as well on the high. At least for rich kids.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 24 19:13:55 2023 No.9690902 File: 379 KB, 1936x1296, 819TQ594X-L.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9686279 I think if they are going to do another piece of hardware, they may try to do Nomad in order to be one of the few official handheld emulators.

Anonymous Fri Feb 24 19:46:31 2023 No.9690979

>>9690902
It's an interesting idea. My questions would be: how much nostalgia does the Nomad carry? (Not a big install.) And how do you create value when you have so many options for Genesis emulation in handheld form? I'm already paying double or more on Sega collection games on modern hardware. The Switch is a thing. Do you use a cartridge gimmick like Evercade?

Anonymous Fri Feb 24 19:57:06 2023 No.9691005

>>9690979
How many Americans younger than 40 really owned a game and watch? Similar
question with the Game Gear (which Sega did actually release emulation handhelds for) and the Japanese. A Switch also renders the NES/SNES/Genesis minis somewhat irrelevant due to the virtual console. A lot of these retro emulation devices are really just collector pieces. Nostalgia does get some people to buy them, but how long do you really think they use them for?

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 24 20:41:40 2023 No.9691104 >>9680120 based non-sequitor

Anonymous Fri Feb 24 20:54:07 2023 No.9691129

>>9690898
Forgot imagine. He's the Turbo Express for the concept starting point.

>>9691005
Not many under 40 Americans owned G&W. It was before the GB. So the scenario is contemporary to that. It's still a useful touchstone when considering high/low. Something like ten years after 1989, Tiger was pumping out inferior versions of that concept and making profit.
As to making emulation redundant, it's not about that. I could probably play Pac-Man on my thermostat if I had a mind to. It's an issue of saturation. Sega has already re-re-released their handy hits for Genesis. And that is what the Nomad plays. So barring nostalgia or an amazing user experience, where is the value? And yes, they released those collectible Game Gear Minis. Good concept but they were so damn small you had to be a gnome to play them. In terms of sales, it doesn't matter how much people play them, they just need to see the value. The modern G&W systems actually present a decent value proposition as a nostalgic collectable and a game. Nomad? I'm not so sure. I'd like to see more "mini" consoles in the space, I just don't know if it makes any sense.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 24 20:56:06 2023 No.9691135 File: 81 KB, 1080x1080, il_fullxfull.4113295958_m6pp.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9691129 Oh goddamn it. Starlight Express. Starlight Express. Starlight Express. Here's the pic. Or just Google it if doesn't work this time.

Anonymous Fri Feb 24 23:00:12 2023 No.9691416

>>9677324
Sega CD would have been a good idea, and probably should have been supported, maybe too early for its time, but they should have stuck to it and not done the 32X or saturn. As the price goes down eventually they'd just be selling Sega CD bundled in. So it could play old cart games and the new CD games, and play music. The more space of the CD would have continuously been interesting to devs and they could have kept porting smaller version to carts.

>>	Anonymous Fri Feb 24 23:52:44 2023 No.9691531 >>9681491 Only problem is Saturn was awesome and dreamcast was shit. All of SEGAs problems would have gone away if they would have had a larger marketing budget. To take a conglomerate with deep pockets like SONY on, you need deep pockets yourself.

Anonymous Fri Feb 24 23:58:20 2023 No.9691541
File: 3 KB, 274x242, v chan.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>9677324
>If Sega just focused on making one hardware good instead of being spastic, they might still be a powerhouse today
also bad marketing in America and Europe.

In Italy(PAL) the SMS, G. Gear and the MD were mainstream.
Retailers refuse to sell SS and DC just because the PlayStation dominated the market.

In my entire childhood, I never met a friend whit a SS or a DC.
This always confused me. It was like a dead zone where literally you never heard of sega games on a home console for like 6 years (more than the whole 5th gen).

Still today I try to see if somebody sells those systems (SS or DC) but nothing.

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 25 00:07:28 2023 No.9691553 >>9691541 >the PlayStation dominated the market Thats the whole story. Fucking SONY the party pooper.

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 25 02:20:04 2023 No.9691880 >>9677324 SoA was right, SoJ ruined the company out of spite

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 25 02:53:59 2023 No.9691968 >>9691880 Meh, I don't buy it. Nobody forced SoA to rush out new hardware before the Saturn. At best I'd call that a miscommunication.

Anonymous Sat Feb 25 03:06:23 2023 No.9692006

>>9691531
Saturn wasn't that impressive after all the false starts before it. Getting teased with more bits and discs was either boring or confusing. The usual marketing didn't work. Brand fatigue was setting in. The Dreamcast could have had better marketing, but it felt exciting at the time. You had arcade performance at home. Or even gaming PC performance. It could go on the internet. The frickin internet. That was huge at the time. Sega felt on top of the tech tower again. Saturn was good in it's way, but they were leapfrogged in a high velocity performance race. It was bad timing over and over.

Anonymous Sat Feb 25 05:43:47 2023 No.9692387

>>9690272

dont see how this would help since the thing is basically a shrink of the master system, which was a known platform and had a large developer pool.

The GG's biggest self referenced problems was the LCD tech of the time being so smeary, the battery situation, and the cost (in ascending order). Launch price of gameboy $90, gg $150.

but in hindsight, there just wasnt a demand for this sort of thing yet to keep it alivefor a full generation cycle. The gameboy was 'good enough,' and priced right, and nintendo kept refreshing, shrinking, and cutting its cost keeping it ever relevant for multiple cycles.

Anonymous Sat Feb 25 05:46:23 2023 No.9692391

>>9691531

nope, because that still doesn't address the core problem. Its not that Sony had deep pockets, which they did, but SCE was a comparatively tiny division. No, its still coming down to the manufacturing costs, and no scenario in this thread is addressing the fact that Sony developed a console that basically did everything needed, and didn't need nearly as much 3rd party support for tech as Sega or even Nintendo.

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 25 06:25:45 2023 No.9692469 >>9677324 No they wouldn't. They died because market trends shifted away from the types of games they were publishing (action/arcade/fast paced games) and moved onto shitty movie games (PS2 titles).

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 25 06:37:30 2023 No.9692497 >>9692469 DMC was more action than anything on the Dreamcast. Shenmue was more movie than anything on the PS2.

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 25 13:14:55 2023 No.9693071 >>9691541 more or less, same here in Spain, but in cashconverters and cex stores nowdays you can see plenty of megadrive games.

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 25 14:02:04 2023 No.9693192 >>9677351 same. i got one when they were liquidating them and came with a bunch of games but i never heard of or saw anyone else who had one

>>	Anonymous Sat Feb 25 18:43:42 2023 No.9693804 >>9677351 I knew a rich kid with a lynx and even a 3DO. He had almost everything. Still no Saturn. And he definitely liked Sega because he had their other stuff. 32X and all. I think there just wasn't much excitement at that point in the game.

Anonymous Sat Feb 25 19:33:51 2023 No.9693940

Reminder that 6th gen is when gaming hit it's peak. Graphic and memory capabilities hit a point where just about any idea could be accomplished while smaller studios could still release retail games. The result was true kino of gaming. It was downhill from there once gaming became too mainstream, costly and all major game companies are too scared to to try anything cool and play it too safe. Now it's either a major corporation's soulless games or indie games. There are a lot of pretentious faggots in indie game development, but some indie devs still make games with an old school mindset (Dread Templar, NGDEVteam games etc)

>>	Anonymous Sun Feb 26 04:42:04 2023 No.9695209 File: 9 KB, 234x216, ff.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9693940 its the equivalent of making an album in the modern era on reel to reel tape.

>>	Anonymous Sun Feb 26 06:08:49 2023 No.9695320 >>9677324 Alright, why isn't there any Wireless Dreamcast controllers? There's Genesis, Saturn, and nothing.

>>	Anonymous Sun Feb 26 06:51:34 2023 No.9695378 File: 267 KB, 2048x1179, Sega Genesis model 2 with cd.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9677324 You mislabeled the Sega Genesis. That's model 1. This is the superior model 2 Sega Genesis with CD add on.

>>	Anonymous Sun Feb 26 07:01:15 2023 No.9695393 >>9695378 OP listed the model 1 release dates for the Genesis and Sega CD, then put the model 2 release dates in parentheses.

Anonymous Sun Feb 26 07:15:40 2023 No.9695412

>>9677324
Their skittishness about leaving 2D behind is what got them. If they had focused on a truly 3D system like the N64 and PS1 instead of clinging to their only successful era they probably would have survived. By the time the Dreamcast came out it was all over.

>>	Anonymous Sun Feb 26 07:16:40 2023 No.9695415 >>9693940 >kino Stopped reading there. You're clearly a fuckwit.

>>	Anonymous Sun Feb 26 07:45:40 2023 No.9695451 >>9695378 Agreed. Model 2 was better. It had an AV for better picture quality too.

>>	Anonymous Sun Feb 26 08:18:51 2023 No.9695486 >>9689643 >The second bank of VRAM has to be enabled by register Seems like it: https://www.plutiedev.com/mirror/kabuto-hardware-notes#128k-abuse

>>	Anonymous Sun Feb 26 19:26:22 2023 No.9696736 File: 66 KB, 549x480, 5SNATCHER_064.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9677376 Mega CD gave us english Snatcher so it was well worth it

>>	Anonymous Sun Feb 26 19:30:47 2023 No.9696746 >>9692497 I like DMC but that's really arguable, there's long stretches where you're running around doing nothing unless you're an autist who knows the game inside out

>>	Anonymous Sun Feb 26 19:45:35 2023 No.9696774 File: 167 KB, 607x608, t.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9677361 >>9680475 >>9681464 >>9677376 Daily reminder:

Anonymous Sun Feb 26 19:49:47 2023 No.9696792

>>9696736

We needed more like this, and less FMVshit. Urusei Yatsura: Dear My Friends is a good example. I don't mean localize it, specifically since Amerimutts wouldn't recognize it, but that genre of detailed pixel art point and click adventure. That's what the "multi media" capabilities of CD Rom were actually good for. And the cinematics were beautiful pixel art, not horrible grainy FMV. Like the lovely cinematics on PC Engine games, simply because it dodged a bullet by not having enough power for FMV

>>	Anonymous Sun Feb 26 19:51:45 2023 No.9696803 File: 103 KB, 854x480, 13e51994135837.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9696792 >Urusei Yatsura: Dear My Friends Good game, shame it never got translated. Cobra was good as well and did get an english version.

Anonymous Sun Feb 26 20:08:59 2023 No.9696849

>>9696803

There's an english translation actually but not as a CD image, it's embedded into a custom emulator that runs as a Windows executable. Same difference, but it offends my autism that I can't just run it in Kega or something.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Otv620ziWjg

>>	Anonymous Sun Feb 26 22:00:35 2023 No.9697136 >>9677474 >The best optimization could give you was a decent port of Doom. That port sucked and fans managed to fix it on 32x.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 27 14:48:10 2023 No.9698839 32X Doom was a travesty

Anonymous Mon Feb 27 17:34:14 2023 No.9699215

>>9686315
I feel like they should have taken the hardware for both the 32x, and Sega CD and made a combined console released at once, instead of doing the add-ons, and that used the Genesis as the base for it. They could have been a cheap alternative competitor to both the n64 and PS1.
32x's graphics were already very impressive, and with CDs the cost to manufacture games could have been incredibly cheap. Couple that with possible game compilations, they could have done well. Sega Genesis was a wildly successful platform in the US, and could have managed to live off of it's name alone. Look at how long the PS2 lived on for after the PS3 dropped.

Anonymous Mon Feb 27 17:39:15 2023 No.9699229

>>9698839
the doom soundtrack was literally made to be played on the genesis sound chip. the fact that it sounded like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2oyweqZ7WM
and not this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hq6owiNLzBs
is truly a fucking crime against humanity

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 27 17:42:20 2023 No.9699235 >>9699215 Lol, or the psone. Wasn’t it outselling all other next gen consoles at one point worldwide?

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 27 17:46:28 2023 No.9699243 >>9696849 Oh wow. That's very impressive. Too have that much animation frames, and to do so at full screen? Nice.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 27 17:47:29 2023 No.9699248 >>9699229 The DOOM soundtrack wasn't made to be played on a YM2612, retard.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 27 17:48:11 2023 No.9699249 >>9699229 if it sounded like the second video, it wouldve been the best seller of the 32X

Anonymous Mon Feb 27 17:55:43 2023 No.9699271

>>9699235
Not hard to understand why, either. PS2 had the strongest launch lineup of any console ever, but it was still a shitty launch lineup. Same for GC and Xbox. PSone had a really attractive design and the mini-screen was a really cool accessory. Not to mention you had a massive lineup to work backwards on, and unlike all the cartridge-based systems that came before it, you could easily find copies of PS1 games from all eras, because much of the titles never went out of print.

Anonymous Mon Feb 27 18:38:25 2023 No.9699406

>>9677351
Because they majorly fucked up in the US by surprise-launching the console 4 months early, which pissed off game devs who didn't have their games ready yet, and pissed off retailers who didn't have shelf space for it yet. I know at least one retailer, I think KB Toys? actively got rid of all their Sega stuff and never stocked Sega products again after the Saturn incident.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 27 18:40:41 2023 No.9699414 >200 posts and no one mentioned nintendo's disgusting intimidation tactics that spooked retailers out of stocking sega products sure smells of tendies in here

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 27 18:44:08 2023 No.9699424 >>9699271 PS2's launch lineup is good, quit parroting journos and think for yourself.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 27 18:45:10 2023 No.9699429 >>9699424 I did think for myself. I just recently sat through a video that played footage from all the PS2 launch titles, and it was a fucking borefest.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 27 18:48:18 2023 No.9699437 >>9699429 Games are for playing, not watching

Anonymous Mon Feb 27 18:55:33 2023 No.9699459
File: 82 KB, 379x387, 1654738590502.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>9699437
PS2 launch lineup sucked, that's my opinion, and it came from having lived through it personally. Aside from one, or two games, it was an absolute travesty of quantity over quality.

Take the fucking L, already.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 27 20:29:57 2023 No.9699701 >>9699459 Nope, it's a solid launch line up because of its variety of quality titles. Your living through it is not playing games, so shut the fuck up and get back after you've played some games.

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 27 20:35:35 2023 No.9699718 >>9699701 arguments about the ps2's launch lineup are somewhat inane anyway, it was a pain in the ass to get one at launch because demand was insane

>>	Anonymous Mon Feb 27 20:56:43 2023 No.9699768 >>9699718 I think there are plenty of games from that period that are worth trying, they're quite common too for the most part. Denial of good games is a shithead thing to do.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 28 01:30:37 2023 No.9700573 File: 502 KB, 500x205, 1659450577131689.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9699768 lmao imagine getting rectum spasms because someone has an opinion that doesn't jive with your personally construction version of reality.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 28 04:16:08 2023 No.9700965 File: 28 KB, 327x400, 1675131986356824.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>9699459 >Street Fighter EX3 >Tekken Tag Tournament >SSX >Timesplitters >Ridge Racer V >Armored Core 2 "snorefest"

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 28 04:33:16 2023 No.9700998 >>9677539 >slightly improved star fox Cope.

>>	Anonymous Tue Feb 28 05:27:59 2023 No.9701072 >>9689609 A bit rushed? It showed up at retailers 6 months early with NO notice. Yeah that is more than a bit.

Anonymous Tue Feb 28 08:29:37 2023 No.9701326

>>9699229
>>9698839
there was a remake recently
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzIIQTtjFUk
>>9699248
correct Roland SC-55 is still the goat
>>9699249
No, the 32x was an absolutely shit console and a waste of resources by SEGA
>>9700998
Star Fox was literally a 10 bucks more than a normal game and worked on the SNES, the 32x was a waste of money for barely an improvement at the time of release

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/vr/ - Retro Games