/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.9673493]

From a technical standpoint this is the most mechanically demanding fighting game ever created. The APM required to function at a competitive level is only rivaled by PC RTS games like brood war.
How did a game that was developed to reach such a wide audience end up inadvertently becoming the most technical fighter of all time?

[Anonymous No.9673570]

>>9673493
The game that saved esports

[Anonymous No.9673582]

>>9673493
>>9673570
niggers, go away already

[Anonymous No.9673586]

more APM =/= more interesting. Otherwise rhythm games would be more interesting than Chess.

but in terms of platform fighters Melee is still the most interesting one after RushRev.

[Anonymous No.9673602]

>>9673493
Z shouldn't be a macro, light shielding ruins the game

[Anonymous No.9673604]

>>9673602
Did you try getting better at the game?

[Anonymous No.9673606]

Doods....

[Anonymous No.9673613]

is Melee the Tekken 3 of the Superior Smashing Bruddas?

[Anonymous No.9673620]

>>9673586
Deliberations per minute is a better metric
>>9673604
I decided to get better at other Smash Bros games which are more fun and don't have this mechanic

[Anonymous No.9673626]

Let me guess...you need more.

[Anonymous No.9673628]

best fighting game ever made

[Anonymous No.9673636]

>>9673626
>Someone else is working on backporting Cloud with the FMV look
now i can sleep
Fuck GhostSoup and Fuck Beyond Melee

[Anonymous No.9673638]

>>9673626
Melee Ike
Melee Ike

[Anonymous No.9673643]

Well, it's not a fighting game. Fighting game players don't play kid games. But for a mascot party platformer, it's not bad, fun for fooling around with your kid sister who likes Jigglepuff.

[Anonymous No.9673836]

>>9673493
>be Bushido Blade
>*blocks your paths*

[Anonymous No.9673859]

>>9673606
>>9673613
I see what you did here.

[Anonymous No.9673882]

>>9673836
>press 1 button every 45 seconds
Yawn. Urban is more demanding

[Anonymous No.9673897]

>>9673643
>Mascot Party
It's a Tussling Scotformer game

[Anonymous No.9673934]

>>9673626
>CHARIZARD
into the trash it goes

[Anonymous No.9674163]

Perhaps in some alternate dimension in which smash bros is a fighting game.

[Anonymous No.9674170]

>>9673882
Urban whomst?

[Anonymous No.9674191]

I always like to theorycraft that with "accidental" games like these at least a couple guys on the dev team knew exactly what they were creating

[Anonymous No.9674256]

>>9673493
Guitar Hero is the best fighting game and you can't prove me wrong.

[Anonymous No.9674460]

>>9674191
> at least a couple guys on the dev team knew exactly what they were creating
Melee was a launch(ish) title trying to show off next gen hardware, so they tried to make it feel fast and flashy. The competitive ruleset and stages arose from people taking advantage of infinites and exploits. Wavedashing is just air-dodging into the ground, it just so happens you slide enough with most characters to make it great for movement and baiting attacks. Brawl and all future entries really fucked up the air dodging system that made Melee feel awesome. L-cancelling is a way to get your shield up faster after you land, it's just if you let go of the shield button before you actually do it, you're back in neutral standing position and can act faster. Of course, they nixed this in later games too. For all it's nitpicks it really is a solid, slick, and super responsive engine with that has more than withstood the test of time. The vanilla graphics still look amazing and most modern upscaled: you really can't say that about many games made in or before 2001.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOZKDSPfVig

[Anonymous No.9674505]

>>9674460
>Of course, they nixed this in later games too
Good. L-cancelling doesn't add depth, and they reduced landing lag across the board in 4 and Ultimate so you don't need it anyways.

[Anonymous No.9674760]

>>9674505
>L-cancelling doesn't add depth
it absolutely the fuck does. try landing them sweaty or feeling the incredible satisfaction of punishing fools who miss theirs.
> they reduced landing lag across the board in 4
babby shit. i hate the slowass movement and that sad excuse for air dodging in every smash game except melee. later smash meta just breaks down to a rock paper scissor simulator. absolute trash.

[Anonymous No.9674769]

>>9674760
>Picrel
This meme is just so good lmao

[Anonymous No.9674851]

>>9673493
Agree. You can actually move freely and have to reckon with your opponent doing the same

An actual fighting game and not a rhythm game

[Anonymous No.9674859]

>>9674760
>it absolutely the fuck does.
No it doesn't. There is never a situation where you don't want to L-cancel so there is no decision making process. Even M2K says it's a shit mechanic.

[Anonymous No.9674894]

>>9674859
it's a valuable mechanic in the heat of competition because you get rewarded for a difficult action to perform under pressure and punished / thrown off your rhythm if you don't. it absolutely the fuck does.
if you weren't dogshit at the game you would know how good it feels to punish people who miss them.

[Anonymous No.9674939]

>>9674894
Execution=/=depth. If you like L-cancelling because it filters out shitters, that's fine, but don't pretend it adds depth to the game. It's an arbitrary execution barrier and you never have to weigh the risks and rewards of using it. Wavedashing adds depth, L-cancelling does not.

[Anonymous No.9674949]

>>9673626
Why is the alignment of the secret characters on the side (i.e. Dr. Mario and Wolf) off in the first two rows but set flush on the third row? Now you can’t unsee it.

[Anonymous No.9674964]

>three active smash shill threads
Why smash spammers are like that?

[Anonymous No.9674976]

>>9674939
>arbitrary execution barrier
absolutely disagree and i don't think we will see eye to eye on this. i have no problem with performing a precise maneuver to cut out most of your intended landing lag and being punished with additional wait time for not executing it properly.
...should you automatically tech the ground holding L or should you have to time it properly and get punished for not doing so? i say groundbouncers get fucked up: i don't see L cancelling any differently than that.

[Anonymous No.9674993]

>>9674851
>platformer
>actual fighting game

[Anonymous No.9675003]

>>9674993
>malding because melee has more complexity, nuance, depth, strategy, and is also cooler than his favorite trash series
Sad!

[Anonymous No.9675005]

>smash
>fighting game

[Anonymous No.9675014]

>>9675003
None of this is true so try harder

[Anonymous No.9675026]

>>9675014
All of it is true

[Anonymous No.9675027]

>>9673934
It seems my superiority has caused some controversy.

[Anonymous No.9675030]

>>9674949
Because it's an edited version of Akaneia's current roster.
Although you could already play a meleefied version of Meta Knight and Wario in the Smash 2 mod for Brawl.

[Anonymous No.9675032]

>>9675005
Cumming on Rita's face

[Anonymous No.9675549]

I still hope for a smash bros with Brawl subspace adventure mode + Melee mechanics. Someday, a developer smart enough will make that happen

[Anonymous No.9675557]

>>9675549
>Subspace Emissary + Melee mechanics
Or a Brawl hack

[Anonymous No.9675629]

How is smash bros technical? you just ring out people and sometimes you don’t even have to do that because the maps are so bonkers in design and the camera is so shit that people just die from losing themselves on the screen. Also, it’s definitely not a fighting game, its like a playground for memorable Nintendo characters.

[Anonymous No.9675635]

Have you played any of the various King of Fighters games? If you did, you would realize how incredibly incorrect everything about your post is.

[Anonymous No.9675750]

>>9674460
Looks like shit to be honest. Some game are better left not upscaled.

[Anonymous No.9675759]

>>9674964
Inferiority complex to SFchads and Tekkenbros

[Anonymous No.9675870]

>>9675759
You've gotta feel sympathy for people who feel inferior to even Tekken players.

[Anonymous No.9676451]

[Anonymous No.9676557]

>>9675635
If you think KOF requires more APM then smash to be competitive then you are clinically retarded, or a Mexican.

[Anonymous No.9676641]

>>9676557
But Smash has a ton of spics too

[Anonymous No.9676730]

>>9676557
Not that it matters, bit that's not even true.

[Anonymous No.9676798]

>>9674460
>Brawl and all future entries really fucked up the air dodging system that made Melee feel awesome.

Melee was the last Smash HAL Lab developed and it really shows.

[Anonymous No.9678275]

Why do fgctards get so assblasted over this kid game being more complex than their retard fireball spamming games?

[Anonymous No.9678386]

>>9673493
>How did a game that was developed to reach such a wide audience end up inadvertently becoming the most technical fighter of all time?
autism. It's called a happy accident

>>9674894
>adding linear pressure to a competitive game is interesting
It isn't. Adding options to a competitive game is good. Like wavedashing

[Anonymous No.9678387]

>it is LE FIGHTING GAME because IT JUST IS OKAY
>it is NOT LE FIGHTING GAME because IT JUST ISN'T OKAY
every time

[Anonymous No.9678416]

>>9678275
>why does me being wrong make people want to say I'm wrong
It's because they're jealous of you obviously

[Anonymous No.9678431]

>>9678416
And yet at no point do you people show that they are wrong. There's no reason whatsoever to believe that Melee *isn't* at least as, if not more, difficult to play at top level than every current existing fighting game and all you ever do is talk shit and then piss off and make excuses whenever you're ask to back it up.

[Anonymous No.9678446]

>>9678431
Not him but you've made multiple threads about this and just keep spamming a useless argument about how even though all the individual moves are easy and you don't have to do real fighting game inputs it's secretly so much more technical and demanding because you're pressing a lot of buttons.

You oscillate between putting down fighting games as just mindless button mashers where you dial a combo to win (likely you were the person trying to call Virtua Fighter a tech demo) and then you turn around desperate and begging for Smash to be included as a fighting game because for some reason that's deeply important to you.

Play Smash all you want, no one cares. But people who play fighting games tend to like fighting games and talking about that genre. A kid jumping up and down demanding Smash get included because random reasons and you need to waggle a lot is of no interest to anyone.

[Anonymous No.9678521]

>>9678446
I'm not who you accuse me of being, though I have posted in another thread here. But I'm not arguing about whether Smash ought to be considered a 'fighting game' and have not been claiming fighters are 'dial a combo' or bashing VF (though there are reasons to consider it weaker then Tekken in certain respects that ultimately make it the less competitive game, despite being superior in many aspects).

Regardless though, you are still doing exactly the shit I'm calling you out on, ignoring the thing I'm actually arguing and instead dancing around the issue be switching the subject to other things I haven't even been discussing and claiming I'm a bunch of other people so that you can pretend you have a meaningful argument against the actual point.

[Anonymous No.9678561]

>>9678521
Because the thing you're talking about doesn't matter to anything. Guitar Hero is more demanding, that doesn't make it a fighting game.

[Anonymous No.9678569]

>>9673493
>APM
I prefer fewer actions per minute, so I can savour each action. This is why the original N64 game will always be the best.

[Anonymous No.9678571]

>>9678561
You're a fucking broken record, good night.

[Anonymous No.9678601]

>>9678571
So are you. What are you even trying to argue at this point and why do you even care? Yes you can make a mini-gold course crazy hard with lots of obstacles so it takes more SPG (stroker per game) than any real golf course. It doesn't make golf and mini golf the same thing and anyone desperate to get them both called the same thing because they are insecure over the two being different is pointless.

[Anonymous No.9678618]

It's not. From an execution standpoint alone maybe. I actually spoke to Leffen about melee at a KoF tournament once and he said something along the lines of 'The entirely of Melee is basically vanilla Marvel 3 Wolverine except unlike vanilla Marvel 3 Wolverine people think it's incredibly skilled because of execution'. Paraphrased because I can't remember what was said but the basic point was the actual gameplay/decision making was actually very simplistic and hyper aggressive, and the execution barrier creates an illusion of depth rather than a genuine one.

The thing I would point out is that a unique trait among smash players is that they only play and understand smash. Most fighting game players will play multiple franchises and have a broad interest in the genre. Many do play smash as well. However the reverse is almost never true, which is why you get ridiculous shit like smash players calling Kazuya a shoto or renaming reversal shoryuken because most of them are completely ignorant of even the genre's basics. You can speculate as to why, my personal view is that it's because smash actually teaches almost zero transferrable skills to the vast majority of players who just lean hard into mechanics and execution rather than 'softer' more fundamental skills that can be transferred.

[Anonymous No.9678839]

>>9678618
>. Many do play smash as well. However the reverse is almost never true, which is why you get ridiculous shit like smash players calling Kazuya a shoto or renaming reversal shoryuken because most of them are completely ignorant of even the genre's basics. You can speculate as to why,

It's interesting because at least one of the vocal people in these threads has said there have been several Smash players who moved to fighting games and play at a competitive level, but none in the reverse. However he's also refused to elaborate on who exactly he's talking about.

[Anonymous No.9678868]

>>9678618
that's such a fox take, and a bit idealistic.
fox, falco, sheik? sure. marth, puff, yoshi, falcon, & peach? theyre all pretty different, and not just hyper aggressive.
also, there is no one known for playing traditional fighting games at a high level that has also played smash at a high level, especially not melee or p+. more examples exist of the opposite, like leffen in getting top 8 in guilty gear at evo

[Anonymous No.9678882]

>>9678868
>there is no one known for playing traditional fighting games at a high level that has also played smash at a high level,

This keeps getting mentioned as a reason why Smash must be so incredibly technically demanding that it scares away fighting game players. But to draw the analogy out more, that's exactly like using the fact that there are no professional golfers who tried to make a go at mini-golf tournaments. All it really says is that most people very interested in fighting games have little interest in Smash Brothers. That so many Smash players are so invested in fighting games and want to get into them is the part that's actually revealing.

[Anonymous No.9678907]

>>9673493
I don't know about all that shit you said, but it has the best overall aesthetic out of any of the Smash games. As far as art style, many of the characters look their best in Melee. The menus are both cooler looking and just easier to navigate that the loud artsy Web 2.0 menus introduced in Brawl.

[Anonymous No.9680162]

>>9678882
God you people are insufferable. You constantly insult Smash and refuse to consider any possible evidence of its merits, even going so far as to twist evidence of it begin 'refined' in any way into the exact opposite (like, for example, the way people would look at Melee tournament results, see that the *same people* consistently win, and then see that, not as evidence of the game consistently rewarding skill/experience, but of a 'stale meta').

Smash players get accused of 'not reaching out' or expending their tastes, then the FGC are excused for the same thing, because who would play something that's obviously a baby party game by definition, right? Yeah, fuck the idea that a game with momentum at the core of its movement and analog controls could be any good, right?

[Anonymous No.9680183]

>>9680162
You act like I care. I'm not asking you to like fighting games.

[Anonymous No.9681198]

>>9678387
Cope

[Anonymous No.9681719]

>>9678387
When you understand why Street Fighter and Fire Pro Wrestling are in different genres despite both being about running around an arena hitting each other to win, you will be one step closer to understanding why Smash is in yet another.
this will never happen

[Anonymous No.9681868]

>>9675549
>>9675557
This is off topic discussion, but i have good news for you two.
https://youtu.be/Ve1GRYOz6JA?t=4m12s
SubspaceEX is a very real thing.

[Anonymous No.9682163]

>>9678275
Its not complex at all, thats why its on the Nintendo.

[Anonymous No.9683914]

>>9680162
Not them but I have said several times its6 not about the complexity or themes, it's about gameplay that leads to genre. These are people who quibble over how much side stepping turns one from a 2D fighter to a 3D fighter. As >>9681719 points out even wrestling games are their own separate genre. Yeah a momentum and ring-out based combat game is cool, but that's a way different thing from the tight definition used for "fighting games"

[Anonymous No.9684885]

>>9683914
It's a hilarious irony. Fire Pro fans don't want their games lumped in with Street Fighter, it's a completely different beast, there would be no point. But Fire Pro fans aren't saddled with the insecurity that the game they chose to spend all their time on was primarily designed for children. Smash fans can't just enjoy the game they enjoy, they have a deep seeded need to have their choice be validated by people who play what they perceive as "real" games and want to be included even when it makes no sense.