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/vr/ - Retro Games

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951629 No.951629 [Reply] [Original]

Which retro RPG (including hacks) has the best combat system?

I have only 2 criteria:

1) Good challenge. It forces you to focus to win fights, no fast-forward Final Fantasy style. Easy to lose if you start screwing up.

2) Variety. There are different viable ways of building your character/party.

Bonus points if it's not a very well known one (JA, FFT, Wizardries etc.)

>> No.951660

>>951629
Goldbox series

>> No.951680 [DELETED] 

bump

>> No.951694 [DELETED] 

>>951680
You need to stop doing this. /vr/ is not /v/.

>> No.951749

Tactics Ogre, but it had a plethora of shit that broke the game.
Still a lot better in theory and practice than the generic turn based stuff at the time.

>> No.951864

The problem in TO is that downright broken stuff is in-your-face and hard to ignore. Like the joinable guy with Petrify that puts TG Cid to shame...

But yes, it's a pretty solid combat system if you restrict yourself to NOT using broken abilities and classes.

>> No.951874

Jagged Alliance 2 is the only correct answer. It's simply the best.

>> No.951881

If Jagged Alliance counts as an RPG then does X-Com

>> No.951883

try umm... langrisser.

>> No.951885

>>951629
Adventure is the original JRPG

>> No.952114

>>951885

except that it's not a jrpg at all

>> No.952264

>>951874
>>951881
xcom and jagged alliance are strategy games
'wrpgs' are also strategy games but they have more elements of exploring and story. People took to calling them rpgs because most of them were inspired by DnD (a real role-playing game). The term 'rpg' has been perpetuated by people who think rising numbers=role playing.

than the japanese made their 'jrpgs' which, like 'wrpgs' are really strategy games with more elements of exploring and story. they kept the term rpg because nips dont know what the word meant

>> No.952417

>>952264 Genre names are conventions, no more no less. It's technically impossible to roleplay in a video game like you can in PnP game (though many player groups prefer their DMs to focus on combat)... but then what about calling every single game with some variety in gameplay a "strategy game", using the term "strategy" in its broadest sense instead of its usual sense? It's more practical to stick to coventions, e.g. JA2 is a turn-based strategy/RPG hybrid - and the meaning is instantly clear to anyone familiar with the genre.

>> No.952469

>>952417
the issue is that the term 'rpg' is NOT clear.
theres people like yourself who recognize that 'rpg' really means 'strategy game with exploring, persistant level ups, and lots of story'

but than there are people who dont really understand the term and think anything with persistant level ups is an rpg (like an arcade game where you level up, or zelda 2).

the term 'rpg' leads to a lot of confusion and should be used as little as possible

>> No.952507

>>952469

>strategy

>hit it until it dies
>if it is fire, use a water/ice spell
>heal when your hp is low
>if you can't beat the boss, grind more

Being turn based != strategy. You'd have to be retarded to spend more than a couple of seconds considering your options in most rpgs.

>> No.952549

>>952469
>that 'rpg' really means 'strategy game with exploring, persistant level ups, and lots of story'
No, it doesn't. It means literally a game where you play a role.

Which either means every video game ever, or none, depending on how hardcore you want to be about the definition of "role playing".

Practically role-playing doesn't happen in video games in the same way it does in the original tabletop RPG's, except maybe Neverwinter Nights and some MMO's.

But I agree it's a term that shouldn't be used. But people do. There you go...

>> No.952572

Are there any games similar in spirit to XCOM but with fantasy elements?

>> No.952624

>>952572
Spellcross.

>> No.952942

>>952549
I'd say that wrpgs (really, crpgs) are mostly defined by 'heavily influenced by tabletop rpgs'. still vague, but vague within in limits. And then jrpgs being mostly defined by 'heavily influenced by dungeon crawlers', which in turn were heavily influenced by tabletop rpgs as well but they went off in an entirely different direction to a point where the influence becomes muddled. And of course, this is also quite vague but vague within limits.
And by this, people claiming that anything with 'rpg elements' such as leveling or customization are rpgs are incorrect in the sense that the game does take some influence from rpg structure but the it doesn't take anywhere near as much influence to justifiably claim that the game was mainly built on top of rpg structure.
And obviously, many genres are going to share certain aspects. You have some strategy in your average crpg but it's hardly the main focus of the game. You might have some customization in a zelda title, but again, it's nothing like the customization in a crpg. Just because they share these minute aspects doesn't mean we can start lumping them together. Genre terminology is mostly based on what the game emphasizes, not what it includes.

>> No.953916

>>952507
That IS strategy. Basic and stupid strategy, but strategy nevertheless. There are much more demanding RPGs out there than what you've described.

>> No.953945

>>952469

>> 'strategy game with exploring, persistant level ups, and lots of story'

Classic RPGs (Goldbox, all Wizardries, all Might and Magics, first Ultima trilogy), that gave the CRPG genre its name had minimal story - it was only functional to set you up in a dungeon to kill things.

Only much later did we get PS:T, Arcanums and such, with branching solutions to simulate real PnP.

All that a Wizardry game has in common with PS:T, however, is persistent level-ups. Both are classic RPGs. So that's all we can stick to.
>>952417 here

>> No.953959

>>953945
He was wrong with "lots of story", I'd replace it with "adventure game elements". Videogame RPGs in fact are basically strategy/adventure hybrid games, except for the few that are basically action/adventures with character progression emphasis.

>All that a Wizardry game has in common with PS:T, however, is persistent level-ups.
And a party. And visible, modifiable stats. And character creation. And a combat/exploration gameplay duality. And a story as a motivator to play the game - minimal or not, Wizardry's story is a story nevertheless.

>> No.953989

>>953959
Party - some Dungeon Master clones (e.g. Anvil of Dawn) didn't have one, and having one in most RPGs is optional. Not to mention many modern FPS games give you AI partners, it doesn't make them RPGs.

Character creation - again, several examples of giving you pre-set stuff in games that are unarguably RPGs (e.g. Divine Divinity).

Exploration - good one. I actually can't think of a single oldschool on-rails RPG. Unfortunately, a lot of games from other genres also have what you can call "exploration" (e.g. scouring for secrets in Quake).

So basically, all elements you've listed (except persistent stats) can be seen in games that aren't RPGs by any sane measure. Moreover, many classic RPGs don't have one or more of these. So the only necessary and sufficient measure to call a game an RPG is persistent stats.

>> No.953996
File: 29 KB, 320x240, grandia.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
953996

>>951629
Grandia is a lot of fun.

>> No.953998

FFT 1.3 just got updated

it's hardmode/rebalanced FFT, I'm having a blast with it.

>> No.954005

Shin Megami Tensei 1 + 2?