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/vr/ - Retro Games

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9463978 No.9463978 [Reply] [Original]

What led to reception of this game changing?

>> No.9463981

>>9463978
This game was always loved

>> No.9463986

>>9463978
Originally, Raiden being le bad ass ninja in MGS4 restored his reputation. Later on in the 2010s all the GW stuff about the future of the internet seemed more prescient.

>>9463981
As someone who loved MGS2 on release, that is definitely not true. Most everyone hated Raiden, the level design of the Big Shell, and the mindfuck story.

>> No.9463993

>>9463978
MGS2 has a bit of a Zelda 2 reputation. Some people were confused at the time of its release and didn't quite know what to make of it, and then people on the internet many years later decided to claim this game was massively disliked at release, which is not only a lie but also pretty ironic.
Both the narrative and metanarrative were also not the sort of thing you would be able to understand in one playthrough, or more than one, for some people. We can assume a lot of people filtered after beating it once simply moved on. I played it in 2002 and it instantly became my favorite game, which holds true to this day.

>> No.9464000

>>9463978
>Snake: "Do what you know in order to make a better world for the future"
>Raiden: "But I hate being a soldier and my wife is preg-"
>Snake: "DID I STUTTER"
and thus Raiden's life was ruined by the shittiest advice ever

>> No.9464019

>>9463978
some e-celeb did a video esay

>> No.9464058

The MGS fanbase was more made up of dudes who just earnestly loved it as a james bond spy series. Raiden being a big girly-man in appearance just completely flopped for them. Now MGS has a fanbase of pseuds who want to be tricked even more so, so they've fallen in love with him.

>> No.9464060

>>9464058
Essentially, mgs2 routed the normalfag menace.

>> No.9464065

>>9464058
Good take. Mgs1 was basically a playable Tom Clancy novel (except for the giant robot and magic, which everyone seemed pretty willing to overlook back then), it attracted the same people who would be Halo and COD fans today

>> No.9464079

>>9464060
Pseuds are worse than normalfags. Normalfags just like things cause they think they are neat. It's simple and earnest. Pseuds are the worst of games as art fags and they don't actually like videogames.
MGS2 is cool, but kojima should have felt at least some shame for how insanely wanky he got about it. He never should have been allowed to make a cutscene or codec longer than five minutes.

>> No.9464086

>>9464079
>Pseuds are worse than normalfags
Essentially, you feel alienated by people smarter than you.
>No I'm smarter than them! I know the game they like better than they do that's why I hate it!
pseud.

>> No.9464092

>>9464086
Armchair psychology is the first resort of the pseud.

>> No.9464093

>>9464092
>No I'm smarter than them! I know the game they like better than they do that's why I hate it!

>> No.9464109

>>9463993
You were clearly not alive when MGS2 released. EVERY BOARD with discussiion of it was filled wity absolute hatred for the game for at least 2-3 years after it's release.

Thing is; branding works wonders. Especially over time. So aftwr maube 10-15 years, and some dubious youtube videos, the consensus changed.
But you wouldnt know any ot that, because you're probably 13

What do i mean "branding"?
>FFXIII came out in 2010
>it was despised at the time, because it sucked ass
>many other games that year were far better liked
>fast forward 12 years
>people still talk about FFXIII. Many even like it now
>most can't name 2 of the popular games released that year
Why? Because of the words "final fantasy" on the case. Thats it.
MGS2, FFVIII, Zelda 2, and countless other piles of shit are now seen as good or even great games, because of branding.

>> No.9464113

>>9464065
What the fuck are you talking about, you absolute retard?

>> No.9464114

>>9463978
pseudonarrative resonance

>> No.9464116

>>9464109
I'm 31. I guess I was simply lucky to not be around retards that much at the time, not even online. I remember people being pretty pissed at the switcheroo and seething that they couldn't play as Snake. Never saw any actual criticism though. No one ever articulated as to why the game wasn't good, they simply were butthurt.
FF8 is actually bad, but it had the opposite effect. People were like "this is pretty good, I guess? I mean, it followed FF7, how could it be bad?" Over time its reputation never stopped getting worse, and deservedly so. FF13 was hated then and it's hated now, the only people that would defend it are nostalgia zoomers.
Zelda 2 wasn't hated. As time went on and it became clear that it was the outlier once the franchise's formula had been stablished, people started pretending that it was awful the whole time.

>> No.9464117

>>9464086
Why do MGS2 fanboysbalways try to play this card? Guess what kiddo; we ALL got the plot of MGS2. Its just that most of us realized how absurd and high on itself it was.

It's not even a renotely clever plot. Sorry

>> No.9464121

>>9464109
Because some people hated it doesn't mean everybody did. I loved FF13 when it got released.
And people weren't discussing games online about how much they hate the games like today. People were mostly interested in actually discussing games back then. You could ignore threads like you mentioned more easily.

>> No.9464124

>>9463978
Initially, it was the most anticipated videogame sequel ever (at that time)
Most people hated it and moved on. So what's left?
The idiots and weirdos who liked it to begin with and modern wannabe artistic types. It's not at all an honest fan base now, and almost entirely a massive circle jerk

So to reiterate:
>initial raction was more honest, and involved many, many more people
>Current assesment comes from a small group of OCD addled fanboys and is far less honest
So while MGS2 seems to have gained popularity, it is in fact just an illusion

>> No.9464129

>>9464117
>we ALL got the plot of MGS2
not even kojima gets the plot of MGS2 because it's rambling nonsense. stop fronting on an internet messageboard.

>> No.9464130

>>9464117
>No! I know this thing you like better than you! I know why it's bad! I totally understood it! Completely!

>> No.9464132

>>9464116
Yeah, you detinately werent actualky alive for most of that. Holy fuck.

MGS2 was criticised for it's plot, big shell's design, length of the codec calls, lackluster boss fights (except a few) and morons generalised it all away as "y-y-you guys just dont like raiden!"
So the fact you're pulling that NOW suggests you heard it second hand to me.

And everything else you said is just wrong. When FFXIII released on PC, it's reputation pulled a complete 180, and it's generally viewed nuetrally to mildly good now

>> No.9464137

>>9464132
>When FFXIII released on PC, it's reputation pulled a complete 180, and it's generally viewed nuetrally to mildly good now

No it isn't. You just have bad taste.

>> No.9464138

>>9464132
Sounds like you're biased as fuck against the game. Gotta love that confirmation bias.
No it isn't. I 100%'d FF13 on release and was pretty active as to how the game was received. The PC port is also a piece of hot trash and did nothing to salvage its reputation. You're probably the type of nigger to take Steam reviews seriously, as long as they line up with your bias.

>> No.9464139

>>9464121
Again: bullshit. The gamefaqs MGS2 board is the best example. Tye board was flooded with hate for months upon the game's release, and it ultimately only subsided by around 2003-ish.
There was no "avoiding" hate. Because every topic that tried to be positive got derailed.

And while the sheer volume of people online is larger now: gaming forums were actually very active back then. But you know that...

>> No.9464143
File: 381 KB, 2544x4000, dee.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9464143

>>9464121
>I loved FF13 when it got released.

>> No.9464157

>>9464137
I didnt say I liked it you moron

>> No.9464160

>>9464139
I went to gamefaqs to get info about the game. Those threads were terrible and I generally avoided them. Peoples opinions were unreliable. Even more so than today.
>>9464132
I love FF13 but how does its PC port changes its reputation? It was a terrible port when it got released, and even with patches and mods still isn't very good. Shadows are not working properly, it looks ugly because of that.. If you are trying to play it on PC maybe try RPCS3. It is that bad.

>> No.9464161

>>9464138
First: why invest so much time in something you clearly didnt enjoy?
Second: I don't use steam and don't read reviews. I'm baeing my inpressions on what i jave seen posted im various forums. Unlike you

>> No.9464164

>>9464161
NTA but 100%ing part is generally liked universally. Its not very long and it only starts after you beat the game. Game stops being linear and so on.

>> No.9464168

>>9464161
I've beaten all mainline FF games since I love the franchise, and I was on a PS3 trophies kick at the time so I decided might as well see it through 100%.
So am I. I beat both MGS2 and FF13 during their release period and was active on places that discussed. But I didn't only take the posts that agreed with me into account, unlike you.

>> No.9464176

>>9464000
I like it, it's yet another reminder that snake is entirely fallible and not the kind of protagonist that's perfect in every way

>> No.9464179

>>9464121
what a joke, I don't know where you were but I saw people shitting on different releases for different reasons pretty much every time a release occurred. To take your example, FF13 was decried as a shitty hallway that took 20 hours to get good. I was seeing this at launch. People mocked the game's world map (final hallway 13 was a common derision) and described the gambit system as making the gameplay largely brainless. I also recall some criticism of the characters being badly realized, though I don't recall specifics as it was over a decade ago now.

On the greater scheme of things, it's such a joke to suggest that the net was always one big happy hugbox until some sudden change occurred to make people hate on games. People have hated stuff for much longer than games or the internet have been around. Be happy you found someplace that didn't want to shit on it when you did.

>> No.9464180

>>9463978
MGS2 to got more appreciation over the time because its infamous ending became more socially relevant as the internet progressed, and also gained attraction from new fans that got into the series from MGS4 and Rising.
>>9464109
>EVERY BOARD with discussiion of it was filled wity absolute hatred for the game
No, they were filled with hatred towards Raiden, because he was meek and feminine, but very few hated the game as a whole.
There were also many discussion praising and over-analyzing the ending.
MGS4 and Rising were actually hated, especially on dedicated fan-forums, but does it matter, if the general consensus for these games outside of nerdy internet communities was positive (for better or for worse)?

>> No.9464186

>>9464000
>taking anything after MGS2's ending as canon.
top kek

>> No.9464196

>>9464179
I mean I mostly don't care if I'm enjoying something, but you could ignore things more easily. You can find jokes about FF13 in even unrelated things to gaming. You couldn't find anything like that about MGS2. Its also because people didn't wanted to admit they were playing games and things like that I guess.

>> No.9464228

>>9464180
The fan forums were a fucking shambles by late-mgs. Completely insufferable "I know MGS better than kojima does" where it's not even hero worship, it's worship of what you wished someone was. The last gasp from them was the whole "actually... what if EVERYTHING was a big misdirect and he's going to announce the TRUE MGS3 at next E3?" nonsense.

>> No.9464232
File: 16 KB, 600x298, Emma-Emmerich-Metal-Gear-Solid-2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9464232

>>9463978
Literally the best MGS game, none of the others had the same impact. Also E E is my wife.

>> No.9464258

>>9463978
Snowden

>> No.9464276

>>9464232
Your wife is dead.

>> No.9464306

>>9463978
Time and distance. Literally just that.

When Sons of Liberty came out, everyone loved Snake, wanted to be Snake, loved his story, etc, and were expecting more Snake. They didn't get Snake, they got Raiden. Understandably, they were disappointed (I was too at first).

But Snake Eater came out, and suddenly we had more Snake. Now we had Metal Gear Solid, and Snake Eater to play as Snake. Sons of Liberty started being appreciated more because now players could go back (after being satisfied with more Snake) and appreciate Raiden and the insane forward-thinking story. Then Guns of the Patriots came out and all the PSP games and there was even MORE Snake. So Raiden, instead of being the only other thing after the massive hype of Metal Gear Solid, is now merely one part of a larger whole to be appreciated.

>> No.9464579
File: 235 KB, 1280x846, ee4.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9464579

>>9463978
It's a bumper bowling anime game for weebs. Typical of the play station line.

>> No.9464642

>>9464579
Note that both are represented by basedjacks, but only one is having any fun. Stealth games are onions.

>> No.9464726

>>9463978
>you shouldn't come to your own opinions

>> No.9464768

>>9464019

>> No.9464796

>>9464109
>EVERY BOARD with discussiion of it was filled wity absolute hatred for the game for at least 2-3 years after it's release.
Can confirm.

>> No.9464798

>>9463978
I was a kid when it came out, got a copy of Substance with my PS2 (without a memory card so that was a doozy). Around my friend circle everyone was really into it, I remember us fucking around and looking for secrets and details like the melting ice cubes or the guy who pisses off a strut. The negative reception was mostly limited to review platforms and internet forums (both places that you never could and still can't trust to have taste or understanding of the medium).

Truth is the game plays really well, fast and arcade-y in feel and allows for a lot of different ways of player expression. Later MGS games lost that feeling a bit in terms of gameplay.
Also, a lot of the visual design elements are now back "in" - the UX and UI design is very slick and fast with subtle flourishes.
People always like to focus on the narrative and meta elements, but really it held up much better in terms of gameplay compared to MGS3 and 4 as it is stealth, but in a fast arcade way.

>> No.9464801

>>9463978
I think the reason is because the game as a lot ahead of its time.

Men have become emasculate, so Raiden actually started looking relatable.

The themes the game dealt with couldn't clearly be understood at the time. Now, we can see that Kojima was kinda warning what the future would become, and he was right about a lot of it.

Also, videogames were still seen as kids toys back then, people were not accostumed to them being philosophical and reflexive and deep.

TLDR: the game was ahead of its time by a lot

>> No.9464807

>>9464137
FF 13 is well liked now because people got over the le open hurl meme. You're out of touch now.

>> No.9464810

>>9464801
>game as
*game was

>The themes the game dealt with couldn't clearly be understood at the time
The internet was still a crawling baby back then, there were no smartphones, people still used those tube TVs. Everyone still had telephones back then.

It's very easy to lose grasp of how the world worked back then, but keep that in mind. The theme deals with subjects like the consequences of widespread advanced technology, societal control, using technology for societal control. Obviously it's a coincidence, but it literally uses the fucking word MEME lmao

Keep in mind the game also deals with AI, and we aren't even there yet. So we are yet to fully be able to analyse the game in its entirety. Just as the game feels fresh nowadays, it will feel fresh again in 5, 10 or 15 years.

It's a very deep reflection about modern life, nobody can deny that

>> No.9464816

>>9464109
>EVERY BOARD
>in 2001
10 people being angry about MGS2 means absolutely nothing.

>> No.9464819

>>9464801
>>9464810
>You seem to think that our plan is one of censorship. [...]

The untested truths spun by different interests to chum and accumulate in the sandbox of political correctness and value systems. Everyone withdraws in their own small gated community, afraid of a larger forum. They stay inside their little ponds leaking whatever "truth" suits them into the growing cesspool of society at large. The different cardinal truths neither clash, nor mesh. No one is invalidated, but nobody is right. Not even natural selection can take place here. The world is being engulfed in "truth". And that is how the world ends. Not with a bang, but a whimper.

"NO ONE IS INVALIDATED, BUT NOBODY IS RIGHT" The fundamental flaw of political correctness. You can't say this or that because you are a bigot, a racist or whatever. Different "points of view" should be tolerated, even though they are completely contradictory.

Also "the world ends with a whimper" like all the crybabies in the Internet right now lmao

It's a deep game, can't deny that, there was no way people would understand it back in 2001

>> No.9464861
File: 73 KB, 796x825, 1662701589170630.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9464861

>>9464109
>Zzzzzoooooooom
MGS2, Zelda 2, and FFVIII were almost universally loved upon release. It was disappointing that you have to play as faggot Raiden for most of the story, but it was still a great game.

What leads zoomers like this anon to believe that these games were hated you ask? I will share with you a universal truth: Contrarian sperglord internet faggots will rail on and on, year after year about the games that filtered them. Look at any thread in /vr/. The buttmad autists always shriek loudest and longest, and not having been there at the time the zoomer mistakes this for timeless consensus.

>> No.9465507 [DELETED] 

>>9463978
I don't think its reception has changed all that much. my brothers back in the day were disgusted by raiden's effiminiteness and vamp being a bi prostitute but the game was cool and weird enough in a good way that they tolerated the cringe sex humor. the colonel AI was an alltime classic moment of playing games together in our basement.

>> No.9465528

>>9463978
I don't think its reception has changed all that much. my brothers and most players were turned off by the cringe japanese sex humor, raiden being a femboy and vamp a blatant male prostitute, but there was an understanding that the game was cool enough and weird in a good way that it justified the gay japanese elements. everything having to do with the colonel AI and the patriots was seen as awesome, I really don't think many people had a problem with that part of it.

>> No.9465531

>>9463978
MGS2 was a piece of shit when it came out and it's a piece of shit now. It's got a cool speech about memes though.

>> No.9465535

never got the hate for big shell, except for the fact you really get to go through half of it.

>> No.9465542

>>9465535
it just has a different vibe than shadow moses, intentionally sterile and drab.

>> No.9465628
File: 455 KB, 900x481, e e.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9465628

>>9464232
She was so goddamn cute

>> No.9465774

>>9463978
Snake returning with the follow-up games so fans stop fearing he will get replaced for good, the follow-up games being even more over-the-top so they got used to it, Raiden becoming le badass ninja. Also just the facts it's the one that aged the best of all MGS games while 3 with its organic jungle zones, lack of radar and weird experimental shit like the healinc system just isn't as much fun to rush through once in a while

>> No.9465782

>>9464807
It's almost like everyone moved on and only the autists obsessed with it still talk about it let alone play this trash

>> No.9465793

>>9464086
>Essentially, you feel alienated by people smarter than you.
Anon, pseuds by definition are not smart. They just say things that sound smart.

>> No.9465798

>>9464116
>People were like "this is pretty good, I guess? I mean, it followed FF7, how could it be bad?" Over time its reputation never stopped getting worse, and deservedly so.
Nah, FF8's reputation flip-flops every couple of years. It's the Gundam X of Final Fantasy games in that regard.

>> No.9465821

>>9464801
>Now, we can see that Kojima was kinda warning what the future would become
He wasn't predicting the future, information control in order to direct society has been a thing since the dawn of history. The only difference is the internet makes it easier now, but the reality is 99% of people have always just believed what they're told by someone who SOUNDS convincing anyway.

>> No.9465830

>>9464816
Nta but even in 2001 gamefaqs was fucking huge. You can say that gamefaqs is and always has been full of retards, and you'd be right, but that doesn't change that they have opinions, and that was the biggest gaming forums to espouse them. It probably still is the biggest gaming forum to do so.

>> No.9465839

>>9465774
>Raiden becoming le badass ninja.
That came much later, in 4 he exists to look cool in one scene, then job to Vamp and lay in the helicopter crying and begging to die.

>> No.9465954

ate usenet
ate bbs
ate forums
ate chat
ate social media
love imageboards, simple as

>> No.9465958

>>9465774
You’re in the minority on this one I think. I’m pretty confident that the vast majority of MGS fans would still list Snake Eater as their favorite.

>> No.9465965

>>9463978
People being unable to admit that Kojima is a hack who's never made a good game and that the MGS series is fucking garbage filled with bad, nonsense writing and horrid gameplay because it's presented like a movie which means video games are art to the type of smoothebrained Neanderthal that's obsessed with their hobby being seen as a legitimate artform and not toys for children.

>> No.9465972

>>9465830
thankfully it's dying just like most forum shit
it's only anonymous posting was more common

>> No.9465989

>>9463978
well it's no longer 2001 and nobody is triggered that you have to play as the androgynous looking Raiden instead of tough guy snake. average dudebros were homophobic back then ("Who the fuck is THIS faggot?")

>> No.9466018

>>9465972
I'm not glad it's dying, I don't want anything from the oldschool internet to die, even if it was shit. Because it's still a relic of the old days that is trying to cling on and act like times haven't changed. Every criticism of gamefaqs that can be made today, could've been made in 2000, very little there has actually changed in the long run primarily because if you look at the age polls from then and now, it's basically been the same people using it the last 20 years.
And I'll take the shittiness of the old internet over the best of the current internet any day.

>> No.9466071

>>9463978
so i played the shit out of MGS1 when it was new. in fact, i played the shit out of the demo and was really excited to play it when it came out. back then, that was rare for me. because the internet wasn't as ubiquitous or whatever.

i played this game well after its release but i didn't know anything about it. i anticipated a lot of kojima weirdness, so the thing about ocelot's hand/liquid didn't upset me, nor did playing as a completely different character. however, i was mildly disappointed we didn't switch back to snake at some point.

mostly my takeaway from MGS2 was it was setting a lot of stuff up. that is, that was my takeaway at the time. i expected future MGS games to explain things like ocelot's hand/liquid in a way that would make me go "oh, that makes sense". instead, we eventually got an explanation for it that ended up being pretty dumb, if you ask me. and not grounded in the way mgs1 was. mgs1 got into some weird ideas like shamanism, but it was a very small part of the picture. from mgs2 and beyond it's a fever dream, and not in a good way. for a story about soldiers and conspiracies and shit like that, anyway.

so, i dunno. i enjoyed playing it but i was expecting for the story to make sense at some point, which it didn't.

i will say though that all the shit about memes in the end is a message that needed to get out there. kojima was ahead of his time about that, whether he did it accidentally or deliberately.

>> No.9466213

>>9465793
All the proof of their lack of intelligence is laid herein of course.

>> No.9466629

>>9465965
Why would you say something so controversial yet so brave?

>> No.9466639
File: 126 KB, 480x480, 1650780289737.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9466639

https://i.4cdn.org/wsg/1669924243971697.webm

>> No.9467248

>>9465958
Just sat with a friend going through the first three games for their first time, 2 still has that gee-whiz TECHNOLOGY factor, arguably even moreso now for the exact opposite reason, it's amazing they got even half of that goofy bullshit to work on the PS2 instead of HOLY SHIT THE PS2 CAN DO ANYTHING, but 3 is absolutely the better overall game. If he had somehow managed to stop at 3 the series would be fucking unimpeachable, the ending is still one of the best in videogames period, and gives you just enough to see how Big Boss could start down a path that would one day lead him to forming Outer Heaven

>> No.9467989

>>9464642
>Notice how they are both represented by basedjacks
>but only one is having fun
>concept of the basedjack template is too complex for an MGS2-fag to understand

Not surprised, honestly.

>>9466639
>brainlets think this is deep

Kojima was very avid in the online communities of Japan, and probably browsed 2chan fervently. The entire game of MGS2 is him coping after he got BTFO by some random anon on 2chan, and decided to dedicate an entire shitpost-game as a reply because of how butthurt he was.

Your favorite game is the literal equivalent of a fucking zoomer vs boomer webm meme. Here's a gun, you can feel free to put it in your mouth and pull the trigger when you fall out of your coma-like stupor due to me awakening you to the truth.

>> No.9468274

>>9463978
the same reason why deus ex is considered so groundbreaking storywise. alot of the crazy shit kojima wrote ended up becoming more and more relevant as the years went on which lead to alot of pseudo-philosophy majors coming out of the woodwork to praise it as a misunderstood masterpiece.

the only difference is that deus ex's devs researched a crap ton of conspiracy theories in order to make it all work while kojima was basically looking at bunch of anime & movies then picked what he thought was cool from each of them to make MGS2 work.

>> No.9468284

>>9466018
>t. LUEser

>> No.9468287

>>9468274
>ended up becoming more and more relevant as the years went on
I really hate this idea because it didn't "become more relevant", you just finally noticed it and thus became more relevant to YOU personally. It was always there, see >>9465821

>> No.9468324

>>9468287
it absolutely did become more relevant. this thread wouldn't exist to have this discussion otherwise.

>> No.9468440

>>9468324
You're missing the whole point of what I'm saying. It was always relevant, the things it talked about have always been happening since we first started the idea of civilization. It's just that now people other than the elites actually talk about it. But it's always been there and it's never going away, everyone believes in some level of information control because even the most diehard free speech absolutist will draw the line at libel or threats.

>> No.9468525 [DELETED] 

i still can't get over how much inferior raiden and the tanker are to snake and the ship

>> No.9468543

i still can't get over how much inferior raiden and the shell are to snake and the tanker

>> No.9470430

>>9465958
Most people are also retarded
2 > 1 >>> 3

>> No.9470485

>>9470430
Yawn.

>> No.9470529

As someone that has loved this game since the day it released, I feel like the modern fans of this game aren't really fans of the game itself, they're youtube essayist fans, they watched videos that spoke highly of it and now they love the game because of the final hour of the game, they have no real love for the game itself.
Of course MGS2 was a massive game that was absolutely beloved at the time, but also incredibly divisive on message boards and always has been, it wasn't until a few years after the HD collection released that you started seeing a real shift in discourse around the game on message boards, it got a newfound appreciation for being a very artistic game in the more mainstream conversations around it.

There's reasons to love MGS2 that go beyond the final codec call, that go beyond the post-modern story. The gameplay is just a ton of fun and the simplicity of the gameplay means it has aged significantly better than MGS3 has, MGS3 is more open, it has more to do in it, at a glance it seems like it is clearly the game that gives you more options for fun, but actually playing it you realize you just wish you had the MGS4 mechanics or MGSV mechanics, the close quarter sneaking in 3 is broken, it isn't designed around it, which is why the game gives you disguises every time you have to sneak around in interiors, stealth is made less exciting on a moment to moment basis because you're always far away from your enemies, you're always circling them, you can always take someone out long before they're even in range of seeing you. 2 doesn't have these issues, its just straight forward arcade stealth that is designed around being close to the enemies, it is far more exciting to play even it if is more limiting and more basic.

>> No.9471619

>>9470529
You actually brought a smile to my face by making me remember stuff like fucking around with the guards and getting kicked in the gnads for being stupid about it. MGS2's gameplay is a godsent, and it's so nice how much fun the game has with itself and you can have with it.

>> No.9471646

>>9470529
In my first playthrough of MGS3 I wanted to crouch move. I know its not needed, but seemed weird even at 2004. It had room for improvement, when it got released.

>> No.9471954

>>9464816
zoomer alert. video game forums were extremely active in ye olden days.

>> No.9472302

>>9463978
It wasn't what anyone was expecting, which was entirely on purpose. If you subvert peoples' expectations that hard, you will get a lot of backlash until enough time has passed that they can appreciate what they got instead of what they wanted. To add to this, the Tanker chapter sets up what is essentially the "perfect sequel" to MGS1, which is then immediately moved away from, again entirely on purpose. This leaves the player feeling robbed of what they actually wanted, and creates a grudge against Raiden for seemingly standing in their way of a REAL sequel.

Once the initial kneejerk reaction had finally passed for everyone, reception naturally improved. New players also came into the game already knowing about Raiden and a general idea of what to expect, which makes an enormous impact on how one experiences a piece of media for the first time. On top of this primary reason, MGS1 had a fairly basic story that could be understood easily by anyone, but MGS2 is intricate and approaches a lot of ideas and themes that were unfamiliar to most players at the time. Not to say that they were not relevant to the state of the world, as they actually were, but many of those aspects simply were not known about or relevant to the average person playing. Fast forward to years later when much of what the game centers around is something the average person finally knows about and has been looking into in some fashion, and it becomes way more interesting to them.

Not to say that I was a miracle intellectual who understood it at the time of release -- I did not.

>> No.9472380

>>9463978
I don't even understand how it was poorly received. I mean it was great. Nobody I knew gave a shit that you played as Raiden. Only thing we cared about was gameplay. Years later I hear people saying that everybody was disappointed. I have a hard time believing it. I think it's just like now where you have vocal minorities that are in control of public narrative. You only hear what the whiny toddlers are screaming. You ignore the quiet people playing the game.

>> No.9474179

>>9463978
mgs2 unironically has gotten better with age. the re-release ads a ton of gameplay, the rants by the AI campbell hit home for a lot more people now that everyone is on the internet, the idea of playing a game as someone besides snake isn't strange anymore now that it turns out you only play as solid snake in 1 out of the 5-6 "main" mgs games and people have learned that the japanese version makes more sense because it doesn't have fucked up casting/translation choices - raiden being voiced by someone with a deep masculine voice so he can actually pull off pretending to be snake before he takes his mask off, or solidus having solids voice actor so the idea that he's an older snake gone rogue is actually belivable

>> No.9474184

>>9464065
>Mgs1 was basically a playable Tom Clancy novel
more than splinter cell?

>> No.9474219

>>9464065
all of the anime shit in mgs1 can be removed from the plot and almost nothing changes, it all existed because kojima was influenced by anime films as much as he was western ones & to give cool bosses and setpieces for his video game

mgs2 the magic shit is the actual plot, and this continues in every game going forward except for 3 which again makes it mostly just an excuse for cool video game moments and not something the actual story needs to function.

>> No.9474241

>>9472302
>To add to this, the Tanker chapter sets up what is essentially the "perfect sequel" to MGS1, which is then immediately moved away from, again entirely on purpose. This leaves the player feeling robbed of what they actually wanted, and creates a grudge against Raiden for seemingly standing in their way of a REAL sequel.
Even then, the Snake Tales in Substance fill that niche (especially Snake Tales C). Shame they didn't have proper cutscenes or new voice acting, but then I'm not sure how you could properly recreate whatever the fuck External Gazer was about

>> No.9474251

>>9474219
'cept for the bit in 3 where you find out that Ocelots dad is a fucking ghost, which is supposed to explain his psychic connection with Liquids arm. That, of course, was retconned in MGS4: Nanomachines of the Patriots.

>> No.9474273

>>9471646
The 3DS remake added crouch-walking, not that I would suggest playing that version.

>> No.9474280

>>9474251
>That, of course, was retconned in MGS4: Nanomachines of the Patriots.
I was about to say "no it didn't" but then I remembered the triple layer of retcons and decptions that game had.
The Sorrow being a ghost is still real tho

>> No.9474286

the fanbase was divided. Some were butthurt about the whole thing, but it was definitely a vocal minority.

>> No.9474298

>>9474251
>'cept for the bit in 3 where you find out that Ocelots dad is a fucking ghost, which is supposed to explain his psychic connection with Liquids arm.
they never explicitly say this in the game

>> No.9474319

>>9474273
I know TPS aiming as well, but as you said that's a bad version. Hopefully there will be a decompilation project. There is one for MGS1.
>>9474251
Unfortunately, fourth game had A LOT of retcons.

>> No.9474339

>>9463978
Mostly the talk about predictions of the internet's future, I would guess

>> No.9474348

>>9464000
Snake told him to save the world and make Revengeace. Based

>> No.9474351

>>9467989
Jumping up and down and screaming about how different you are does not make you cool, Anon.

>> No.9474356

>>9474179
>solidus having solids voice actor so the idea that he's an older snake gone rogue is actually belivable
I like John Cygan but I really don't understand why Kojima didn't do this for the English voice as well. Not like Hayter can't make his voice a bit more raspy

>> No.9474375

>>9474356
kojima has never given a shit about the english versions of his games. he kept the jp snake va in mgs5 while using the english to hobnose with American Celebrities. he cast big boss in mgs4 as the literal father of the jp snake voice

the only thing he's done is that starting with twin snakes/mgs3 he's forced a more direct translation of the japanese leading to shit like the russian cold war colonel chanting a japanese phrase to ward off lightning strikes

>> No.9474383
File: 489 KB, 657x1866, tolkien localization.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9474383

>>9474375
Why would he make changes about other region localizations? The idea itself stupid.

>> No.9474406

>>9474375
Funny. I had always heard it as the other way around, since he didn't bother to recast the JP voice actor for Big Boss, despite doing that in eng and trying to recast Hayter in 3. Maybe he just hates Hayter lol

>> No.9474413

>>9474406
Hayter is a shitty actor. He only did a good job in the first game.

>> No.9475030

>>9474413
I like him enough. He does fine for what he needs to, and his voice is iconic. I'm not someone who pissed and shit themselves over him being replaced in V, though.

>> No.9475183

>>9474383
He really didn't like the changes made to MGS's script. For what it's worth Jeremy Blaustein is kind of a cunt who has an incredibly high opinion of himself, like he thinks his SOTN script was ruined by the voice acting when the acting is specifically what made the sorta-flowery writing so goddamned memorable in he first place. Like the "better" PSP translation isn't all that different if more direct but the "good" voice actors are totally forgettable, and MGS is basically in the same boat. That said I'm one of the people who actually like Twin Snakes

>> No.9475195

>>9474406
>>9474413
I don't actually think Sutherland did all that bad a job but holy shit literally everyone else is acting circles around him, Downes absolutely, but Randolph too. Hell even with Troy Baker you can actually hear him trying to channel Zimmerman's tone and inflection even if his Ocelot isn't that old yet

>> No.9476065

>>9463978
it's the only good mgs game lol

>> No.9476081

>>9475195
This is exactly how I felt about the performances in the game too. It felt like everybody but Sutherland brought their A-game, and all of the cassette tapes were actually good listens. Christopher Randolph really had me grinning like a fool just about every time he got to speak.
I wasn't devastated that Hayter didn't show up for MGSV, but I sure missed him when I started the game. At least with how quiet Venom is for the majority of the game and the twist at the end the recasting accidentally ends up making sense.

>> No.9476090
File: 10 KB, 474x266, th-1087866866.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9476090

>>9463978
Everyone in this doesn't want to admit 4 is the best one

>> No.9476287

>>9475195
>>9476081
Just because Hayter was terrible, I don't think a Hollywood actor made much sense, but it was more likely exciting for Kojima. Voice acting and acting is different.
I do agree Hayter is voice was sorta iconic for Snake.
I played 5 with Japanese voice acting so can't comment on Sutherland.

>> No.9476458

>>9476287
>Voice acting and acting is different.
Yeah, exactly. Sutherland's delivery was good, but it felt a little more wooden than the rest of the cast for this reason. It sounded like he was acting in the booth like he would for film and not necessarily acting along with the character's body language.
I don't really think Hayter was terrible though, honestly. Otsuka does a better job but I really can't bring myself to hate Hayter's goofy Snake voice.

>> No.9476552

>>9476458
>Sutherland's delivery was good, but it felt a little more wooden than the rest of the cast for this reason.
Except the "Kaz I'm having deja vu here", that line was perfect.

>> No.9476734

>>9464579
Splinter Cell faggots are angry no one cares about them, more News at 11

>> No.9476758

>>9476458
>I really can't bring myself to hate Hayter's goofy Snake voice.
I'm not saying I'm hating it. I do agree his voice was iconic, and despite Hayter being a retard, I don't think Kojima should have changed him. Ditching him for a Hollywood actor, left a bad taste in everyone's mount.

>> No.9476774
File: 40 KB, 500x313, 903.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9476774

>>9476090
lying is a sin

>> No.9476786

>>9475195
Kaz is Jay to Venom's Silent Bob
I wonder what comedy movies Kojombo likes...

>> No.9477291

>>9463978
people stopped being 10 years old to finally understand the plotline

>> No.9477296

>>9477291
I've been kinda surprised to see so many posts on here saying they didn't get the plot when they first played it because I played this when I was 13 and got it

>> No.9477303

>>9477296
you have to understand the hype behind mgs2 when it came out. every one was playing it which meant you had more midwits who probably never even played the first one.
think people like dsp who probably went in expecting an action game because the graphics at the time were really good

>> No.9477491

>>9464058
I'll be honest, when I was in my 20s, Raiden was a big turn-off for me compared to MGS1 as Snake. I don't think he was a good fit for a series at the time was taken as a spy/james bond type game primarily played by guys who liked that sort of thing. It was especially a bait to play as Snake for an hour before being thrown into Raiden's shoes without warning for the rest of the game.

I also didn't like the characters as much as MGS1 except for Solidus, the Liquid living on through an arm transplant to Ocelot was beyond stupid and just got even worse through MGS4, your support staff was overall more bland and less interesting than MGS1 (I get that Colonel was to be an AI recreation and thus his advice and personality are supposed to be flat, but still), Fortune and Vamp were completely over the top, and Fatman was good but silly didn't fit the theme. MGS3 had its fair share of camp, but still felt more grounded overall than MGS2.

>> No.9477571

>>9464109
I think it also has to do with just age. There's a lot of games that wouldn't get the time of day on release because there were better ones that you'd spend your limited time on. Fast forward fifteen years and now when games release at a glacial pace and are unappealing to older audiences who grew up with video games, now suddenly games that weren't regarded well on release get more attention because the landscape is starved for fresh entertainment.

I recently started playing through the PSX library and started quite a few games that I saw but passed on during its lifetime because I couldn't play everything at once and found myself enjoying them. There's nothing modern I'd rather play, so I'm perfectly content playing something that decent but not great because it's still a type of game I'd want to play over the latest PS5 releases.

>> No.9478341
File: 10 KB, 325x231, 1586893349765.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9478341

>>9463978
stupid teenagers that didn't understood it at the time and hated Raiden grew up and most of them got wiser and more mature, therefore understanding the game better and finally learning It's just fucking good

>> No.9478550

Anyone upset over Raiden came around by the end of the game

>> No.9478563
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9478563

>>9477303
Yeah, that's fair.
I wish I could have gotten the same experience that people who played the demo before the game came out had with regards to Raiden being a surprise, but the cat was already out of the bag by the time I played the game. I doubt I would have been upset by it, but I'll never know for sure.