/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.9356242]

i skipped Wolfenstein 3D and i played Doom and really liked it. my impression of Wolfenstein is that it's a slower game with no redeeming qualities, is that accurate? (wondering if i should play it)

[Anonymous No.9356264]

>>9356242
I think is good, there are less weapons, but you can use ammo for all of them, there is some stealth elements in that the enemies would notice you of you fire a gun, while there is no map you can use the trail of bodies as a guide, and because of the amount if hitscan you need a bit of strategy so you can't just shoot your hearts desire.

[Anonymous No.9356269]

Definitely more primitive. FPSes at that time were basically just key hunts with guns

[Anonymous No.9356301]

>>9356242
>no redeeming qualities
I mean, it's not a bad game but it doesn't exist in a vacuum and there aren't many reasons why you'd want to play this instead of Doom most of the time. Still worth playing for maybe an hour just for vidya history purposes.

[Anonymous No.9356321]

>>9356242
Wolfenstein 3D and its sequel Spear of Destiny are completely block-based, with all secrets being walls that can be pushed two blocks length away from you. Some later levels do some pretty inventive stuff with this feature.

As a whole though, it's a lot more primitive than Doom, with only 4 types of enemies, 3 different weapons and one type of ammo. It's not bad, and it's worth playing, but you need to know what you're going to and recognize that it predates Doom.

[Anonymous No.9356334]

>>9356242
It's definitely not as complex as Doom, which has many magnitudes more depth in gameplay and design, but it's not thoughtless and completely bland either. For instance, hitscan attacks determine accuracy and damage by the distance to the target, and they can actually be dodged with fast strafing, neither which is true for games like Doom.

If the game had only ever been the original three episodes (30 levels), that would have been pretty ok, even if the gameplay changes very little, but there's two expansions, Nocturnal Missions with another three episodes (30 levels), and Spear Of Destiny (single long episode of 20). The first one doesn't change the gameplay at all beyond the bosses who have rockets, and the second doesn't change much either, but at least has more novelty in boss fights. There's also the FormGen sequels to Spear Of Destiny (20+20), but those are so goddamn fucking bad that I don't think we need to regard them, regardless of if you like Wolfenstein 3D or not.

I'd say if you wanna check out Wolfenstein 3D, it's worth doing, but there's little to the official stuff beyond the original three episodes. You'd be forgiven for stopping after the first episode, because you'll get the gist of it, but they do actually change up the level design and add new enemies in the second and third episodes, and it's worth sticking to it for the climactic Mecha Hitler bossfight. I'd say a good idea is to not play more than one or two levels per day, to avoid fatiguing yourself.
If you find yourself enjoying Wolfenstein 3D and wanting more like it, there's a bunch of mod stuff out there, some which add new things to the gameplay, though I only know little about it so I couldn't give you too much input on what to seek out there (I really like Totenkopf SDL Edition). There's also Rise Of The Triad, which was originally conceived as a sequel to Wolfenstein 3D, but which was changed, and it's actually a pretty different game.

[Anonymous No.9356348]

>>9356242
>Wolfenstien 3D
I could never really get into it enough to bother playing through all the episodes. Catacombs 3d is more interesting IMO.

Wolfenstein only has hitscan weapons, only differing by rate of fire, plus the knife. Movement is slower, it takes longer to traverse the maps. The maps are much more maze like and the walls tend to look very similar so it's easy to get lost. The terrain is also very samey, you tend to have large open rooms or corridors, so the combat is very repetitive. Enemy variety is also very limited. All in all, I could enjoy accept most of the flaws, but the gameplay is just too slow.

[Anonymous No.9356353]

>>9356334
very informative comment

[Anonymous No.9356364]

>>9356334
>You'd be forgiven for stopping after the first episode, because you'll get the gist of it
I'd say the first episode is so boring it gives a very bad impression of the game, and that you absolutely should stick around for the others to see the game get more interesting and creative.

[Anonymous No.9356501]

>>9356242
Wolf was alright. I liked the games that used its engine like Blake Stone more. always laugh at the guards who say mein leben

[Anonymous No.9357039]

>>9356242
>y impression of Wolfenstein is that it's a slower game
Wolfenstein 3D is actually a much faster than Doom as the enemies don't have HP bloat. Everything can die quickly when under fire, you included.

[Anonymous No.9357045]

>>9356242
i thought it was neat
play the uncensored jaguar version
or pc version i guess

>not killing mecha-hitler
why even live anon?

[Anonymous No.9357069]

>>9356242
I wonder how different the game would have been if they'd kept all the stealth mechanics that they later removed to improve the "flow" of the game.

[Anonymous No.9357142]

>>9356242
Skip it and play the superior Wolfenstein game instead

[Anonymous No.9357147]

>>9357142
sorry wrong pic

[Anonymous No.9357161]

>>9357039
That's one thing I really like about Wolf3D. Even a simple Guard can wreck you if you're not aware of what's going on.

[Anonymous No.9357174]

>>9356242
Yes, it's probably the least interesting game on it's own engine (well, Noah Arc 3D is a strong contender).
Play Blake Stone instead.

[Anonymous No.9357331]

>>9356242
Classic Doom games are fantastic.

Wolfenstein 3D, on the other hand, is garbage. The success of Doom effectively retroactively made Wolfenstein 3D more popular, since it assumed the role of the game representing "Doom before it became Doom".

In reality, it's incredibly slow, boring and shit to control because of the lack of a strafe option. It lacks all of the dynamism and fast pacing that makes Doom great.

And let's be honest. Most people prefer shooting up demons over shooting up G*rmans, although I'm not one of those people.

[Anonymous No.9357364]

>>9356242
It did some stealth stuff before Metal Gear Solid and Thief did too. For instance tap on a door or wall and the guards will be drawn to the noise. Pretty neat for a supposed primitive fps. Although granted you don't do any real stealth strategy after you aquire the machine guns.

[Anonymous No.9357384]

>>9357364
>For instance tap on a door or wall and the guards will be drawn to the noise.
That is definitely not a feature in Wolfenstein 3D.

[Anonymous No.9357420]

>>9357331
>shit to control because of the lack of a strafe option
but it has strafing?

[Anonymous No.9357450]

>>9356242
Its fun just the BZZZZZZZZ sound gets annoying as you try to pushwall every single wall in the game looking for secrets.

Also the bullet sponge on enemies are inconsistent, so you end up wasting bullets making sure they die

[Anonymous No.9357453]

>>9356242
It's still great. I started playing it in VR in some Doom engine. It made it fresh again

[Anonymous No.9357456]

>>9356242
If you already played Doom, then you're guaranteed to find it to be a worse game overall, especially if you play it directly after. However, I still find enjoyment in playing it even today, because it's actually not just a primitive, obsolete version of Doom. Rather, it's its own thing, and feels distinct from Doom because it plays more like a top down 2D shooter in a first-person view.

Some differences from Doom off the top of my head:
>some enemies can remain unalerted by noise
>both you and the enemies are glasses cannons and die quickly
>all weapons use the same ammo pool
On the surface, those 3 changes are unimportant and even bad, but they make for a very intense experience that, yes, gets old quickly compared to Doom, but yet manages to maintain its own unique style of fast-paced combat that's demands the player's full attention at all times. It's precisely because of the game's non-dynamic and primitive engine that Wolfenstein 3D feels different. The lack of depth and complexity compared to Doom is made up for in other ways, and the many other design aspects that would carry over and be perfected in Doom, such as level designers leaving traps for the players, keep the game somewhat interesting and charming.

Also, it blows my mind how many people ITT are saying Wolf 3D is slow to play. I happen to think it's the fastest FPS ever made, both in the way most people think a "fast FPS" plays (100% enemy pain chance per shot, low TTK enemies, fast move speed, being able to sprint and shoot at the same time) as well as the actual game's design. Watching just 1 minute of any speedrun of the game will make that more evident. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbnpEJ11ANk

Anyway, the ideal way to play if you decide you're curious would be with the ECWolf sourceport, which is basically the GZDoom or Quakespasm equivalent for Wolf 3D (higher framerates, resolutions, and the ability to use WASD to move).
https://maniacsvault.net/ecwolf/download.php

[Anonymous No.9357468]

>>9357450
>inconsistent
It's not, it's consistent with how far away you are from the target.

[Anonymous No.9357573]

>>9357069
probably would have gained a lasting appeal?

[Anonymous No.9357594]

>>9357456
>it blows my mind how many people ITT are saying Wolf 3D is slow to play. I happen to think it's the fastest FPS ever made
i think there's a distinction in how you mean 'slow' than how they do
i don't think everyone else is talking about time to completion, i think they mean the feeling of playing the game while you are in the midst of it

[Anonymous No.9357610]

>>9357594
That's what I mean too. I'm not talking about the act of speedrunning the game or completing a level quickly, I'm talking about the actual gameplay being incredibly fast.

[Anonymous No.9357617]

>>9356242
How have you ever played Wolfenstein 3D, are you 15?

[Anonymous No.9357624]

>>9357610
you know Doom is faster right? like way way faster?

[Anonymous No.9357629]

>>9357617
*never

[Anonymous No.9357630]

>>9357617
why would i bother playing it when stuff like Half-Life came along, Halo, really good games that stand the test of time?

[Anonymous No.9357631]

>>9356242
same but with doom instead of wolf3d and quake instead of doom

[Anonymous No.9357645]

>>9357617
It's honestly easy to glance over considering the games which follow are so much better. I like Wolfenstein 3D, but Doom alone makes it look barebones in comparison.

[Anonymous No.9357648]

>>9357630
Because it’s still a good game in it’s own right and has other things to offer from the games you listed, you’re dumb fuck zoomer retard.

[Anonymous No.9357649]

>>9357630
>halo
>really good game
zoomer confirmed

[Anonymous No.9357651]

>>9356242
Wolfenstein 3d is a really good horror game if you're in the mood

[Anonymous No.9357662]

>>9356242
Love Wolf3D.

[Anonymous No.9357672]

>>9357648
LIKE WHAT
IT'S ALMOST LIKE THE POINT OF THE THREAD IS TO SPECIFY
dementia much?

[Anonymous No.9357698]

>>9357672
Why don’t you play the game and find out for yourself instead of wasting everyone else’s time you dumb fuck zoomer retard

[Anonymous No.9357797]

>>9357617
Even if this were still the '90s, PC games then were for office workers and kids whose parents didn't buy them a console.

>>9357630
>Halo
Based fellow millennial.

[Anonymous No.9357812]

>>9356348 >>9357331 >>9357624
I remember playing the Mac shareware version of Wolf3D and being able to cross the biggest rooms in one mouse movement. Is the DOS version that different?

[Anonymous No.9357829]

>>9357698
i guess i just like wasting your time, because it's so hecking valuable

[Anonymous No.9358017]

>>9357812
It's pretty much the same. You can stack your mouse movement with your WASD/arrow key movement, so you really can get fast as shit in Wolf3D.

[Anonymous No.9359083]

>>9356242
I love Wolfenstein 3D a lot, in fact it's my favorite game in the series and that's coming from someone who doesn't have nostalgia for the game.

Play from Episode 1-3, if you liked it continue with episode 4-6 because they are a prequel, Episode 1 and 3 are really good with 3 begin my favorite, Episode 2 is mediocre and not fun, Episode 6 is bullshit level of hard but not impossible.

If you want to spice things up you can play the 30th anniversary edition which adds new weapons to the game like a flamethrower and a rocket launcher.

All of that said but Wolfenstein 3D is a hard game, the hardest game in the series so don't except an easy game if you decide to play on the hardest difficulty.

[Anonymous No.9359221]

>>9356334 >>9359083
Are there also Mac exclusive episodes/levels; or did I misunderstand or misremember something I read?

[Anonymous No.9359460]

>>9359221
>Are there also Mac exclusive episodes/levels
Yes there is differences between the dos wolf3d and mac wolf3d levels.
>or did I misunderstand or misremember something I read?
yes, i was referring to the 30th anniversary edition which adds things from the wolf3d mac but still keeps the dos version "almost" the same, and it adds 3 new episodes.

[Anonymous No.9359878]

>>9356242
wolfenstein isnt bad, but its repetitive. whenever i feel like playing it, i play for about a half an hour and ive had enough.
>wondering if i should play it
you can literally play wolfenstein for free, and it would take like 20 seconds to do so. you couldve booted it up in the time it took you to make this thread

[Anonymous No.9359946]

If you think you are too young to be comfortable with the old-timey Wolfenstein 3D then you should certainly play Corridor 7 instead - literally everything that happens in the game will be 100% familiar to you, since it's set in 2012 and basically just replays things you have already lived through.

[Anonymous No.9360161]

>>9359460
Found what I read before.
https://wolfenstein.fandom.com/wiki/Mac_Family
It seems like the DOS, Mac, and 3DO versions all have unique elements; levels, graphics, story text, music. Is there still not a "definitive" version that combines them? I assume the 30th anniversary edition isn't it, if it's just the six DOS episodes plus three new ones, and has non-canon additions.

[Anonymous No.9360218]

>>9356501
ANGST!!! (or whatever they yell when killed).

[Anonymous No.9360356]

>>9360161
>Is there still not a "definitive" version that combines them?
The full Mac version (Third Encounter) has the 30 Mac-original levels and the 60 DOS levels.

[Anonymous No.9361402]

>>9360356
>The Macintosh introduced a level package with six episodes, correspondent to the 60 levels of the PC (know as the Third Encounter) alongside the Second Encounter.
That makes it sound like Third Encounter is only 60 levels; with the Mac-original levels being only in Second Encounter.

On the other hand, it looks like the First and Second Encounters aren't so much "original" as just downgraded versions of certain of the DOS levels, with inconsistent, non-canon, out-of-game story text. So maybe there's not much point in playing them. Maybe to try the added weapons?

As for the Third Encounter levels:
>they are not a precise adaptation, with high modifications in the level format, as well as adapted to its own wall and items pack. Some proposital [sic] changes such as adding the new weapons and items, or in level structure as the secret pushwall maze in E2M8.
I don't know whether that makes them more or less "definitive". The lack of story text is a strike against them, though.

Another small omission: "the third frame of the Übermutant firing is once again left unused".

Then there's the music. Apparently the Mac version has "Fully new soundtrack composed by Interplay's Brian Luzietti"; and the 3DO version has "New soundtrack composed by Todd Dennis (and a remix of the Mac theme by Brian Luzietti".

Maybe I should play the original 30 levels as the main, "classic" game, then, if I want to, play the full "series" in chronological order, optionally finishing with one of the enhanced versions of the original 30? But which version? Does the 30th Anniversary Edition incorporate all the enhancements from the Mac and 3DO versions, including all the music tracks?

[Anonymous No.9361416]

>>9356242
It's more primitive than Doom but it's still fun. I mean if you can play Doom today you can play Wolfenstein, they aren't THAT different.

[Anonymous No.9361437]

>>9361416
I do have to say the music in the game fucking sucks compared to Doom though

[Anonymous No.9361751]

>>9359946
that's a good bait but Corridor 7 is shit, if anything it will turn them away from Wolfenstien3D even more.
>>9361437
as much as i love Wolf3D i gotta agree with you, the soundtrack is ok at best, and compared to Rise of The Triad it looks bad.

[Anonymous No.9361769]

>>9361751
>that's a good bait but Corridor 7 is shit, if anything it will turn them away from Wolfenstien3D even more.
Lol, it stands around halfway between Wolf and Blake Stone + nails the atmosphere of cosmic dread.
The better point is that it's harder to get into, since it's not immediately obvious to how the stuff like force fields works, etc. But it sure shows how to get make Wolf formula actually interesting to someone not interested just in an primitive 3D shooter.

[Anonymous No.9361797]

>>9356242
Do not think of Wolf3D as DOOM's predecessor, because it's not. DOOM was a first-person shooter, a game that tries to provide creative combat situations for you to solve with whatever tools you have. Wolf3D was a 3D version of Pac-Man (it even has a Pac-Man level as an easter egg). It's an arcade game where your job is to find the exit while collecting as many points as you can without running out of lives. Unlike DOOM, it's a very one-note experience that doesn't try to surprise you, it challenges you instead. If you don't find its basic gameplay loop entertaining, you shouldn't waste your time, because it's not gonna get any better (or worse, for that matter).

[Anonymous No.9361848]

>>9361751
DOS, Mac or 3DO soundtrack?

[Anonymous No.9362000]

>>9359083
I'd say that the last quarter of Spear of Destiny is the hardest out of the stock iD Wolf3D maps. Floor 18 start is a nightmare, even if you're doing a continuous playthrough.

[Anonymous No.9362013]

>>9361848
Mac soundtrack is only 10 minutes but it's higher sound quality than Dos if that's your thing, and it also got a metal vibe to it.
3DO soundtrack is about 10+ minutes and it's also higher quality than Dos and have Epic vibe to it.
and lastly Dos soundtrack is about 30 minutes and 10+ minutes if you include Spear of Destiny soundtrack, it's the roughest sounding one but not bad at all, you can use different sound fonts if you want a better sound quality.
saying all of that i would go with the Dos soundtrack, it got triple time of the other soundtracks and Wolfenstein 3D is a long game so the variety of it would help along the way, and the one i am most familiar with.

[Anonymous No.9362060]

>>9362013
No mod that combines them, with different tracks on different levels, I guess?

[Anonymous No.9362197]

>>9361769
ehh i would say Blake Stone and Wolfenstien 3D are good games but not Corridor 7, that begin said yeah i think Corridor 7 did nail the atmosphere very well especially in Wolf3D engine but that's about as much praise as i can give it.
>>9362000
I didn't count Spear of Destiny when i wrote my comment but you know what i will replay Episode 6 today and Spear of Destiny tomorrow, if this thread is alive by tomorrow i will gladly update you, but you are right i remember the later half of Spear of Destiny begin brutal.
>>9362060
Don't think so, best i can find is this mod which makes the soundtrack HQ https://github.com/ericvids/wolfmidi

[Anonymous No.9362216]

>>9356242
It's not bad for what it is, but it can get a bit repetitive
I'd play only an episode or two at a time

[Anonymous No.9362301]

>>9361402
If you want to play the "main classic game" you should play the original 60 level DOS version or one of its ports.

[Anonymous No.9362615]

>>9361437
It's maybe not as refined in the music department either, but there's some pretty nice tunes in there.

[Anonymous No.9362645]

The biggest thing I don't like about Wolf3D is the one ammo-type thing. It basically removes weapon choice for the vast majority of the experience.

[Anonymous No.9363551]

The thing I don't like is the violence. You should be able to talk things out

[Anonymous No.9363676]

>>9362301
And just write off the added weapons, music and other assets from the altered ports?

[Anonymous No.9364126]

>>9363676
Well yeah, they're not part of the "main classic game".

[Anonymous No.9364286]

>>9364126
I feel like there's a communication issue here. Wasn't the game originally released with only 30 levels? Is playing the Nocturnal Missions in their original released form really critical to appreciating the game/series and its place in history, rather than their just being more of the same, released after the original game had already made its impact?

[Anonymous No.9364296]

>I skipped this game and here are my impressions of it.
Why don't you skip the part where you made a thread and go fuck yourself?

[Anonymous No.9364360]

>>9364296
who are you quoting

[Anonymous No.9364635]

>>9362000
>>9362197
Update: you are absolutely right that the last quarter of Spear of Destiny is the hardest, i almost got a game over in Floor 15 but i got a game over in Floor 16, Floor 17 is also hard and tedious, I noticed that the boss levels are no joke here, that said Floor 1, 6 and 7 in Episode 6 are hard, mazy and tedious, my run was standard not 100% run with no saving but i broke the rule with the last quarter of SoD, only saved at the start of the level and or pistol started it.

[Anonymous No.9364795]

>>9363551
Why are you a cuck?

[Anonymous No.9364883]

>>9357456
>some enemies can remain unalerted by noise
Doom does this with the Ambush flag, sometimes referred to as the "Deaf" flag in some older editors, which isn't correct.

When a monster in Doom is tagged for Ambush, it won't immediately react to noise, but it will actually detect it and then wait to make a move until you see it, as an Ambush tagged monster will get a 360 degree field of view if it has heard you.
However if you haven't made a noise which it could hear, then the Ambush tagged monster isn't 'ready', and you can actually sneak up behind him.

The way sound propagates in Doom is slightly awkward, in that if sound has propagated into a sector, then that sector is 'live' and if any monster finds itself in that sector in any way (even if you used some port tricks to create an all new one), the sector will always alert a monster.
Sound can be blocked if there are two linedefs in the way (such as any typical door or wall), or if a linedef is specifically tagged as blocking sound, then sound cannot 'traverse' past it.
Because of how sound works in Doom, a typical setup in older kinds of .wads for having monsters teleport into the level is to hide a little open tunnel somewhere which leads to a remote 'storage' outside the level, where the monster will hear your gunfire and then try to walk towards you, crossing a teleport linedef and then being teleported to a designated point. There are other ways to achieve this however.

[Anonymous No.9364940]

>>9364883
neat, thanks for explaining because I knew from the couple of Doom mods that I have played that it was possible for sound to not wake up some enemies in Doom, but I just couldn't recall any situation like that in vanilla Doom's campaign

[Anonymous No.9364942]

>>9364940
I'm glad my tism fit could actually be of value to someone.

[Anonymous No.9364952]

>>9356501
>>9357174
>>9361769
interesting posts. are there any other good games that use the wolf engine besides blake stone?

[Anonymous No.9365007]

>>9357594
He's definitely right, Wolf3D is fast in ways which Doom isn't, in part because it lacks a lot of Doom's complexity.

First there's the faster player movement, which lacks any actual acceleration or deceleration, you can immediately move at top speed at your whim and stop on a dime, then immediately go Sanic again, you cannot do this in Doom because speed must be built up on and it takes time to stop (which makes mouse movement fidgety and janky), the much more varied and complex terrain means you also aren't as free to safely move, because you'll get stuck on shit or fall down something.
The second reason is that as the other guy said, you and the enemies are glass cannons, the enemies generally can't tolerate a lot of hits, but neither can you, so whenever there's a fight it's essentially a race between who can open fire first, with the player having the means to fall back behind cover or quickly strafe out of the way from gunfire (but not indefinitely, as there's no circle strafing).

Doom's hitscanners are a bit different, they can be pretty lethal, and they're fragile, but you can have have way more health and even armor in Doom, and Doom has infighting, Chaingunners in particular are very prone to starting infighting, and it's often viable to trick them into it, but that often takes a little time pulling off, and you need to mind the other monsters which are still focused on you. Wolf has no infighting. Most monsters besides the zombie hitscanners take a bigger beating, so they're often slower to kill, and their slower projectiles can be dodged, so it's safer to take your time with them.

Unlike Wolf, hitscan attacks don't really drop off in power (and again, can't be dodged), spread patterns are larger at a distance, but it'll be the same damage rolls, so being shot at from a thousand map units away in Doom is a much bigger problem than in Wolf. There's also no weapon 'cooldowns' nor managing more than one type of ammo, which most foes drop.

[Anonymous No.9365039]

>>9356242
Wolfenstein 3D is decent, but it gets tired after the first 3 episodes IMO. Theres no reason to play the expansion episodes or spear of destiny unless you absolutely want more Wolfenstein 3D.

[Anonymous No.9365365]

>>9364952
Rise of The Triad, which is one of all my time favorite fps games if not my favorite fps.

[Anonymous No.9365372]

>>9365365
ROTT is pretty sweet, though it's so different from Wolf3D that it's actually hard to compare them IMO. I guess it's almost like an inbetween of Wolf and Doom.

[Anonymous No.9365384]

>>9362197

That looks like a Dwarf Fortress screenshot

[Anonymous No.9365390]

>>9365372
Yeah but that is the crazy part, all of that made using the wolf3d engine, it surpassed doom in some regards.

[Anonymous No.9365407]

>>9365390
A souped up Wolf3D engine, mind.

[Anonymous No.9365814]

>>9365007
see all this typing is a little over the top, in Doom you move way faster. talking about acceleration and deceleration is autistic, and seems like cope

*everyone* *knows* you *move faster in Doom*

[Anonymous No.9366157]

>>9364952
I'd say, try all of them, including the supposed "stinkers". Not telling you to play them to the end, but they aren't as bad as some people love to meme.
It's just you really shouldn't approach any of them (except for ROTT, I guess) as you would a post-Doom FPS. Like, for example, you might want to look more at a map rather than the first person view in Wolf engine games that have it.

[Anonymous No.9366229]

>>9365390 >>9365407
Wouldn't it be just as accurate to say that Doom was made using "a souped up Wolf3D engine"?

>>9365384
Too young for your first association to be Kroz or ZZT?

[Anonymous No.9367220]

>>9366229
>Wouldn't it be just as accurate to say that Doom was made using "a souped up Wolf3D engine"?
No, it's completely different, just like Doom and Quake engines.

[Anonymous No.9367291]

>>9364286
>Wasn't the game originally released with only 30 levels?
No, it was originally released as shareware with 10 levels, plus ordering info for both the 30 level version and full 60 level version. The retail version always came with all 60 levels.

[Anonymous No.9367332]

>>9367291
According to Wikipedia:
>The first episode was released as shareware for free distribution by Apogee and the whole original trilogy of episodes made available for purchase on May 5 as Wolfenstein 3D, though the purchased episodes were not actually shipped to customers until a few weeks later. The second trilogy that Miller had convinced id to create was released soon after as an add-on pack titled The Nocturnal Missions.
The source they site is Masters of Doom.

[Anonymous No.9367739]

>>9367291 >>9367332
*cite; sorry.

[Anonymous No.9367754]

>>9367332
"soon after" isn't very exact. The point is that the game was originally released as a 10 level shareware game that said "hey, like this shit? Here's how to order more of it, either 20 new levels, 30 new levels or all 50 new levels". It was never "originally released with only 30 levels".

[Anonymous No.9368287]

>>9367754
>These were produced after the original first three episodes of Wolfenstein 3D, when Scott Miller, after learning the time it took to make one level (a single day), convinced the id team to produce another trilogy. Tom Hall considered the possible plot options and hit on the idea of Giftkrieg or chemical warfare. This led to producing the Nocturnal Missions.
>The Nocturnal Missions were initially originally sold separately from the original three episodes (or together at a discount), but all new releases of Wolfenstein 3D sold ever since include all six episodes. The HTML version of the game on the Wolfenstein website, however only includes the first three episodes.
Episode 4-6 also have different approach to level design than Episodes 1-3, i think it's fair to treat them both as separate trilogies.

[Anonymous No.9368297]

>>9368287
But they were still equal parts of "the original release". The shareware game that came with episode 1 only had order information for both episode 2-3 and episode 4-6 (or all 5 together), it wasn't a later add-on or anything.

[Anonymous No.9368373]

Post em the ones in folders are doom mods so they might not count,the others run on a wolfenstein port

[Anonymous No.9368436]

>>9368373
does Brutal Wolfenstein make the game worth playing?

[Anonymous No.9368441]

>>9368436
I would say it gives a new spin to the game at least,the author just recently finished converting all 6 original episodes,its one of the total conversions i keep replaying but your opinion may vary i get cathartic hearing the enemies bleed to death

[Anonymous No.9368443]

[Anonymous No.9368465]

>>9368373
Only one I've played is Coffee Break. It's good, but gets a bit repetitive when you notice all the same tricks being used level after level.

[Anonymous No.9368818]

>>9365814
That's ignoring the point, Wolfenstein 3D's combat is faster because the combat is much simpler, and the environments are much simpler, there's very little that takes any time. You definitely also move faster in Wolfenstein 3D, Doom doesn't let you stack mouse movement with keyboard movement, something which makes you faster than SR40 and SR50, and in practice even wallrunning (which only works under very specific circumstances, and is only actually useful in a couple of them).
Acceleration and deceleration is also significant, you don't have to stop even close to as often, and the times you do, you don't lose any momentum because you can immediately resume the crazy speed you had with absolutely zero delay, the speed can also be maintained for all kinds of very quick maneuvering.

[Anonymous No.9368828]

>>9367220
Doom has more in common with Quake given that both use Binary Space Partitioning.
I guess the SNES port of Wolfenstein 3D also did that, but the original game was never designed around it, nor did it originally need it, that was just hurriedly copied over from Doom's development because the SNES was struggling bad to run Doom even with the SuperFX chip.

[Anonymous No.9368892]

>>9368818
>You definitely also move faster in Wolfenstein 3D,
>Doom doesn't let you stack mouse movement with keyboard movement,
this is what i mean, that doesn't matter no one cares if you can input moves twice over, in Doom you are always running really fast

[Anonymous No.9368957]

>>9368892
But you're not, you frequently slow down for combat because combat is more complex and usually takes more time.
Stacking movement, again, actually matters, because it lets you cover comparable distance in half the time, and you never have to slow down. Doom has you get comparable to non-stacked movement when you have long straight lines to move in.

[Anonymous No.9371096]

>>9368373
Totenkopf is lit as fuck.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZtkK8mJnkI

Fast, challenging and arcade-like, but very moody and immersive too. I like how the music and enemy voice acting helps create the feel of an oldschool WW2 action movie, but the game isn't dredged down in cinematics and theatrics, the gameplay has more depth than the original, but retains its high speed.

[Anonymous No.9371143]

>>9371096
i really like the detail that the enemies keep chattering while looking for you,not just speak during discover/death sounds,wish more mods did this

[Anonymous No.9372724]

>>9371096
damn how can a mod like this surpass the 7th and 8th gen reboots of Wolfenstein?
this is Wolfenstein 2 for me, i will play it in the future.

[Anonymous No.9372731]

Wtf is this zoomer ass thread
even if you're a zoomer who never played it it takes a minute to just download and try it instead of making a thread and waiting for people to tell you what to do

[Anonymous No.9372940]

>>9372724
It's a very high class fan game. I won't really spoil anything for you, it's fun to be surprised at what it does, but be mindful that it's quite hard, expect savage rape even on skill 3, let alone skill 4. I find that Wolfenstein 3D's mouse movement really shines in Totenkopf due to how it lets you "thread the needle" at high speed when it comes to diving in and out of an open door or gap to deliver lead and falling back to avoid it coming back, as well as strafing gunfire.

Well I could actually hint towards one thing; there's a variety of different weapons which do different things (you saw the first boss ignore pistol bullets there), some can only be found in secret areas, and one can only be found in secret levels.

[Anonymous No.9373283]

>>9372940
I love that and everything about it, forgive me for bringing this up again but the new Wolfenstein games have left a bad taste in mouth and seeing this is like discovering a whole new world i was imagining but didn't know that it exist until now.
I love the arcadey level design here and i like that you can use upper walls and skyboxes, the details here is insane, like seeing the bullets fly past you, every room is different in textures and walls, this feels like the sequel to Wolfenstein 2 that we all got robbed from.
Love me finding secrets and collecting treasures, always has.

[Anonymous No.9373519]

Just finished E2, Schabb is a fucking joke, even compared to Hans.

[Anonymous No.9373634]

>>9372940
Does that mean that if you dont find the secret weapons the bosses are invincible?

My only gripe with wolfenstein is the secrets,sure i still press every painting and symbol but secrets on unmarked walls are stupid as fuck,i check every wall and corner that looks out of place due to habits

[Anonymous No.9373638]

>>9356242
What control scheme did you use for Doom?

[Anonymous No.9373683]

>>9373638
Arrow keys for movement
ALT to strafe
SHIFT to run
CTRL to shoot
Number keys to change weapons
Space bar to press buttons

[Anonymous No.9374012]

>>9368957
you don't slowdown in Doom combat, you keep moving so you dont get hit.
it's wolfenstein where you slowdown and exchange fire.

[Anonymous No.9374540]

I have the same gripe as >>9373634; along with the fact that I have to leave the game and find a map online to learn where they are, instead of having a cheat code for it like in Doom and other games. And the automap is so needlessly big that I can't even view the whole thing at once to look for open spaces.

(I also don't like killing dogs; but that's been avoidable so far.)

[Anonymous No.9374642]

I never played Doom before. I dont want to play with a keyboard, is it playable with a mouse? Is there any decent console ports?

[Anonymous No.9374776]

>>9374642
Not sure if serious, but you'd need a lot of buttons and axes to play with mouse *only*. The 8th-gen console versions run fine, but why would you want a console port if you want to play with a mouse?

There's also a Doom thread in the catalog right now.

[Anonymous No.9374860]

>>9374776
I mean just keyboard, when I say mouse I obviously mean keyboard and mouse.
I went in the doom thread a couple times and I could not comprehend anything

[Anonymous No.9374864]

>>9374860
Yes you can aim with mouse

[Anonymous No.9374978]

>>9374860
Not even the infographics linked from the OP?
https://imgur.com/a/wWS8zXz

[Anonymous No.9374980]

>>9374642
>>9374860
how do people like this even find /vr/ kek

[Anonymous No.9374981]

>>9374012
I think the point is that combat takes more time in Doom. You have to stop advancing through the level to deal with enemies, even if you're "moving" in the course of doing that.

[Anonymous No.9375545]

>>9374978
That is exactly what I was talking about. such a incomprehensible clusterfuck
>>9374980
I've been posting on this website longer than 99% of this board has been alive

[Anonymous No.9375746]

>>9374642
Doom for DOS has native gamepad support but you will still need the keyboard to switch weapons.

[Anonymous No.9375751]

>>9375545
What part are you having trouble with? Like,do you just want a port setup to click and play doom or wolfenstein? I could do that for you

[Anonymous No.9375778]

>>9375751
I just want to play with a keyboard and mouse. Everyone recommends multiple different versions, I don't really care for the latest and greatest enhancements aside from maybe 21:9 aspect ratio

[Anonymous No.9375839]

>>9375778
Alright try any of these two options
>this one just download,run the exe and configure options to your taste
https://wl6.fandom.com/wiki/WL9
>for the second one you need two files,both linked on the page,after extracting both put wolfenstein wad inside the gzdoom folder and run gzdoom
https://forum.zdoom.org/viewtopic.php?t=4608&sid=4d33c7477c810119d9d8059ac909b44d

IF you somehow cant make it work i will just make a mediafire file for you later

[Anonymous No.9376689]

>>9368441
Fantastic mod it keeps the spirit of wolfenstein intact (killing nazis in gorey ways) while improving upon the original.

The original was fine for its time but its showed its aged. This just improves it.

[Anonymous No.9376725]

How are the Jaguar and 3DO ports?

[Anonymous No.9377110]

>>9376725
Both are actually good hell fun fact for the jaguar version of Wolf 3d. For that version if you 100% a level BJ will give you a thumbs up.

[Anonymous No.9377246]

>>9375545
What's incomprehensible about it? It's not the infographic author's fault that there are so many source ports. Crispy Doom works fine for me personally; reportedly accurate and has all the modern features I care about.

The link to get the wads is broken, but you can find them at https://archive.org/download/2020_03_22_DOOM/DOOM%20WADs/.. Just make sure to go for "Ultimate Doom" over plain "Doom".

That'll leave you with plain Windows MIDI playback, unless you already have a MIDI manager and sound font installed; but that's tolerable.

[Anonymous No.9378234]

>>9377246
How does GZdoom differ from crispy doom, chocolate doom, ultimate doom, etc?

[Anonymous No.9378352]

>>9374012
You're seldom actually outright slow in a Doom fight, but the combat being more complex makes it take more time outside of strays and incidental combat. Not a lot, but noticeably.

Doom:
>slightly slower maximum and practical speeds
>wide enemy and weapon variety
>wide variety in environments
>prioritizing targets is absolutely vital
>which of the wide variety of resources you have available to you will shape combat a lot
You often have to think quickly, and employ a variety of different tactics, monsters often take longer to kill, only the weakest foes goes down to just a couple of bullets.

Wolfenstein 3D:
>stupidly fast, and there's no cooldowns to any movement
>very limited variety in enemies, most of them function very similar
>enemies hit hard and tolerate little, most drop ammo
>there's only a single ammo type, there's no cooldown to any weapons, once you have the chaingun you can use it indefinitely
>environments are very simple
There's virtually no point to prioritizing one target over another short of the bosses, all the mooks go down quickly to your weapon, they won't hurt or interact with each other, you just try to avoid fire and then spray them, one of the key strategies in the game is falling back and using an open door as a chokepoint to line up your enemies in. Frequently this isn't viable or even an option at all in a game like Doom

[Anonymous No.9378376]

>>9378234
GZ Doom is the one that has all kinds of modding potential, to get you into Brutal Doom, or having 3D models, or voxels for graphics, Crispy is mostly vanilla, how you might remember the game, but will modern support, higher resolutions, such. Zandronum is multiplayer and is bundled with DoomSeeker, for multiplayer goodness, it's like Crispy but multiplayer really, must have. and the last one i like is ReMood i think, it has splitscreen multiplayer, so no brainer, must have.

[Anonymous No.9378397]

>>9374642
Doom supported keyboard + mouse out of the box, the popular setup being to play with WASD keys for moving, something like the spacebar for the use key, and then using the mouse to quickly turn horizontally with precision.
There's no looking up or down, there's an aim assist which directs your shots up or down (and very subtly left or right at times), but it won't magically score hits for you if your timing is bad.

The original .exe had this mouse movement thing carried over from Wolfenstein 3D, but it doesn't really work very well for Doom given the far more complex terrain and the fact that there's now actual momentum to movement, so it feels very slippery and imprecise. It was quite common back in the day to use tricks to disable the mouse movement so you could have clean mouse turning, either with utilities such as NoVert, or outright removing the vertical roller on a ball mouse.
These days, basically every sourceport lets you just toggle it off (often being off by default), even the new official ports.

That said, Doom can also be played with a gamepad if you're inclined to do that, and it actually plays pretty well on a reasonably configured gamepad, especially with an analog stick for movement. If you're so inclined, sourceports like GzDoom and Woof lets you play with a gamepad and mouse at the same time, combining a smooth analog stick for moving with a fast and smooth mouse for aiming.

[Anonymous No.9378404]

>>9363551
Ex-fucking-cuse me? Then wolfenstein franchise is not for you because that franchise is fucking popular because of its gore hell gore is literally Wolfenstein's core identity. Removing gore from Wolfenstein is like taking the meat out of a burger and still try to call it a burger

[Anonymous No.9378412]

>>9378376
>>9378397
should a first time player be playing Crispy doom or gzdoom or ultimate doom or prboom

[Anonymous No.9378439]

>>9378234
>Ultimate Doom
Doom was originally distributed as free shareware with just the first episode, and then you could get the full game via mail order for $40.

When Doom 2 was put in the works, it was going to be sold retail, and they figured they oughta sell a version of the first game retail too, so that you could grab both boxes from a shelf in a store and get the full experience. To make a better incentive for this, the retail version of the first Doom got an added episode 4, with some extra hard levels, and this was called Ultimate Doom. If you already bought the original game via mail order you could get a free patch to upgrade your version to Ultimate Doom, so you didn't need to buy the game twice.

>Chocolate Doom
A faithful port of the original .exe to modern systems, complete with basically all the limitations and bugs. If you don't want any changed features or anything, don't want to bother with DosBox, and just want the original, pure experience, then Chocolate Doom gives you exactly that.

>Crispy Doom
Base Doom, but with a variety of nice optional features, like high resolutions and widescreen support, as well as a few small novelty things such as making it so the monsters which bleed green or blue actually make an appropriately colored blood splatter, as well as faux brightmaps (pic related).

>GzDoom
Balls to the walls modding, full perspective correct OpenGL rendering with no palette restrictions, dynamic lights, advanced scripting languages. If you wanted to transform Doom in any way, GzDoom lets you do that from the tiniest little tweaks to the most complex and full fledged conversions.
There's a lot of fun to be had with a lot of the cool shit people have done with GzDoom, but if you're just looking for the original gameplay, you're better off looking elsewhere. Maybe save checking out GzDoom for after you've played through the original games.

>>9375778
Crispy Doom or Woof! would do that.

[Anonymous No.9378445]

>>9378412
Crispy Doom is probably the most userfriendly and quickest to just jump into.

[Anonymous No.9378446]

>>9378412
either, if a newcomer doesn't have a specific desire from the game.
you could launch the game in Zandronum without serving multiplayer if you wanted to. you could also co-op the game with others if you wanted to experience that.

[Anonymous No.9378460]

>>9378397
>That said, Doom can also be played with a gamepad if you're inclined to do that, and it actually plays pretty well
seconded, it's almost as if that's how it's meant to be played, because as you stated there's no aiming up or down, you CAN but it's redundant since Doom is pseudo 3D, i.e. everything is actually flat but presented as if it's not, so your shots have a massive pillar of hit box up and down.

[Anonymous No.9378494]

>>9373634
Nah.
The first boss is armored up so that the 9mm pistol bullets from your handguns and subguns will basically just bounce off/flatten out and do nothing to him, however, his armor isn't unstoppable, the 7.92mm Mauser rifle (and the later Sturmgewehr and machineguns) will eat through that kind of armor, which is why the guy in the video starts shooting at him with the sniper rifle. You can later also get an 88mm Panzerschreck, which aside from totally obliterating even the gasmasked stormtroopers with heavy weapons in a single hit, will hit even the armored bosses pretty hard.

Further spoiler:
The first weapon you see in that video is dual wielded Schnellfeuer pistols. You can't find these lying around normally, they are only found in secret areas. They differ from the MP40 subguns and P38 pistols in that they have a distinct horizontal spread. Once you find a second Schnellfeuer pistol like in the video, you can have a rapid horizontal spray of bullets like that. You don't need the Schnellfeuer pistols though, they're more like a bonus than anything else, dual MP40s are very rapid and don't have that repeated cooldown.
There's yet one more secret weapon which you can find in one of the secret levels, another which you don't need, but which is pretty cool to have just for the fun of it. I won't spoil that though.


Speaking of things you don't need:
In each secret level, you can find the parts for a big and bad gun, when you get all of them, you assemble them into a complete weapon. This weapon makes the final boss, who's actually quite mean and nasty even on easy, a fair bit easier, however, you don't actually need this secret weapon to defeat him, he's still vulnerable to the 88mm rocket launcher.

[Anonymous No.9378504]

>>9378460
Not quite. Explosions don't account for height, they reach vertically to infinity, but beyond that (and monster melee attacks), monsters and players have a defined height, and hitscans and projectiles can actually travel above or below them.

The vertical auto-aim is just easy to use most of the time, so shots get angled up or down as needed. You can still miss though, a rocket you fire over the head of a monster you don't have a line of sight to will pass over him, hitboxes must intersect.

[Anonymous No.9378505]

>>9378352
>There's virtually no point to prioritizing one target over another
simply not true

[Anonymous No.9378608]

>>9378460
>you CAN
Only if you're playing an inaccurate source port.

[Anonymous No.9378631]

>>9378608
>inaccurate source port.
Just like Carmack intended.

[Anonymous No.9379662]

Can I play, daddy?

[Anonymous No.9380389]

>>9356242
Wolf 3D is inferior to Doom on every technical level, so I never really gave it a shot... until I did and played through all 6 episodes in one go. It's really fun arcade-y action, proof you don't need all the latest high tech graphics to have a fun blast.

[Anonymous No.9380794]

>>9378460
>Doom is pseudo 3D
Stop spreading this absolute bullshit. Projectiles in doom are hitscan just like every other 3d game. Since there is no vertical aiming, the game has vertical auto-aim. Vertical auto-aim controls the exact same parameter as manual aiming does, the angle at which the projectile is fired. Manual aiming could have been added to doom in just a few lines of code.

[Anonymous No.9380813]

>>9380794
it's true, the world is flat geometry, like a cardboard cut out

[Anonymous No.9380825]

>>9380813
Maps before rendering are a flat geometry.
The game world itself is 3D.

[Anonymous No.9380846]

>>9380813
A single story building can be described by a doom map, therefore single story buildings are 2d.

[Anonymous No.9381261]

I heard the Mac port was in improvement with better sound and graphics, and it even has a sourceport too.

[Anonymous No.9381354]

>>9381261
Sorta, they kinda halfassed it on the sprites.

[Anonymous No.9381395]

>>9381261
didn't it have different/extra episode?

[Anonymous No.9381669]

>>9380794
>>9380813
>>9380825
the imp fireball and revenant missile can go over the player's head, calling projectiles a hitscan just tells me you know very little about the game and keep spreading misinformation, also Wolfenstein 3D and Doom are both 3D games not 2D.
If anything i can believe Wolfenstein 3D is 2D if you make an argument for it but not Doom.

[Anonymous No.9381712]

>>9381669
>>9380794 (You)
I was referring to the bullets, not the missiles.

[Anonymous No.9382043]

>>9381395
Wasn't that just the downgraded levels from the SNES port?

[Anonymous No.9382357]

>>9356242
How about play it and tell us if it’s good.

[Anonymous No.9382554]

>>9381261
Yes, it's better and you can play it on ECWolf dev builds. Or with Wolf4SDL conversion, if that's what you prefer.
>>9381395
>>9382043
It had both.

[Anonymous No.9383068]

>>9382554
Both original levels and levels that were downgraded versions of the DOS levels?

[Anonymous No.9383118]

>>9381712
Bullets are hitscan. Missiles are projectiles. "Projectiles are hitscan" is a contradiction. It helps to use standard terminology if you want to be understood.

[Anonymous No.9383163]

>>9383068
Yes. First Encounter is the demo, Second Encounter is SNES maps and Third Encounter is PC maps.

[Anonymous No.9383169]

>>9356242
I forget if /vr/ is cool with zdoom or throws a shitfit about it, but if you use it you can find a free .wad of wolfenstein and play it in the the doom engine. Can't go wrong with free but other than the ww2 aesthetic theres no reason to play it over doom

[Anonymous No.9383219]

>>9383169
>not playing Doom on the Wolf3D engine instead
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OI75aissjEY

[Anonymous No.9383234]

>>9383163
https://wolfenstein.fandom.com/wiki/First_Encounter
>Wolfenstein 3D: First Encounter is a shareware mini-campaign episode version of Wolfenstein 3D for the Macintosh, and comprises three levels from the first main game for that platform, Wolfenstein 3D: Second Encounter.
Doesn't sound like original levels.

[Anonymous No.9383338]

>>9383169
>you can find a free .wad of wolfenstein and play it in the doom engine
The problem is that the behavior of the enemies are different in the total conversion, and it actually breaks some of the levels from what I've played of it. In Wolfenstein 3D, there's some guards that stay unalerted until you enter their line of sight. You could fire pistol shot after pistol shot in the same room as them, but they will remain on guard until they see you. In the total conversion, *ALL* of the enemies get awakened by sound or by entering their line of sight (like in Doom's campaign), which will cause many levels to play differently, and even break some secret areas by having enemies become alerted by shooting and wind up blocking where the pushwall would normally go, when they should never have been alerted in the first place.
To be clear, I'm talking about the total conversion by afadoomer. If there's another one that's more faithful, I'd be for that.

[Anonymous No.9383362]

>>9383338
That is an error in the conversion, see >>9364883

This could be fixed if you put in enough effort.

[Anonymous No.9383376]

>>9383362
Yeah, true.

[Anonymous No.9383549]

>>9383234
>Wolfenstein 3D: Third Encounter is a Macintosh port of the 60 levels from the original MS-DOS, Wolfenstein 3D, published in 1994 by MacPlay. It acts as a follow-up campaign to the Second Encounter game from the same publisher. Third Encounter was originally only available as mail-order, after having purchased Second Encounter. It is part of the Mac Family line of Wolfenstein 3D ports.
>In 1995, both Second and Third Encounters were published together in a retail box for the Macintosh and simply called Wolfenstein 3D (this release is sometimes known as the "Commercial Version"). This 90-level version presented the user with 7 missions: Second Encounter, followed by each of the 6 original MS-DOS missions. When this retail release was ported to the 3DO and Apple IIGS, the Second Encounter mission was renamed to Original Encounter.

[Anonymous No.9383695]

>>9383549
>90 levels
I remember playing a bunch of doom as a kid and becoming accustomed to having a really long campaign as a standard. Then, I got Rainbow Six for my birthday in 98 or whatever and assumed it would also have 30 or 40 levels or whatever and felt ripped off when it only ended up having 16.

[Anonymous No.9384280]

>>9356242
lots of backtracking to find every enemy to shoot. takes forever.

[Anonymous No.9384456]

>>9384280
Why do you have to shoot every enemy?

[Anonymous No.9385575]

>>9384456
For score of course!

[Anonymous No.9387424]

>>9385575
based, please tell me that you also love collecting treasures and secrets?