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928976 No.928976 [Reply] [Original] [archived.moe]

/VR/, what makes Quake more historically important than Doom?

I personally prefer Doom and Doom II to Quake, tho as an arena shooter Quake III is my favorite.

Just seems like Doom must have been more revolutionary at the time, yet I see the opposite opinion time and again without much explanation.

So what do you reckon is the reason?

>> No.928980

Quake popularized Internet multiplayer. Quake founded the standard arena FPS formula which every other game in the genre has copied with only minor refinement.

>> No.928989

Doom = iconic single player

Quake = iconic online play

>> No.928990

Quake was the first FPS with complex and fully 3D environments with arbitrary structure (Descent was fully 3D first, but the maps were made of distorted cubes only, so it couldn't have the architectural variety of Quake).

>> No.928992

How was Doom revolutionary, it was a stripped down version of Ultima Underworld?
Who considers Quake more important than Doom? Most people seem to value Doom higher.

Quake had truer 3d environment than Descent and supported 3d accelerator cards.

>> No.928995

>>928992
Doom wasn't revolutionary for its engine, but for its pacing and atmosphere.

Quake was revolutionary for its engine and for its multiplayer.

>> No.929015
File: 132 KB, 734x632, g2750_2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
929015

Doom was 2.5D and used scaling sprites. Technologically it did nothing new.

Quake used 3D graphics rendered in-game combined with advanced lighting (for the time).
Seeing those fireballs rise and fall, and the shadows they cast... Quake brought a level on ambience that was unmatched in it's era.

Quake was the "killer app" that made 3D graphics cards a necessity for PC gamers. Quake launched the 3D card revolution for 3dfx, powerVR, and later Nvidia and ATI.

More significantly this was the start of the "quake engine" era of gaming. Rivals were forced to come up with the unreal engine to compete.

This changed the entire gaming industry. The quake engine and it's rival the unreal engine have changed how games are made (and not just PC games).

>> No.929037

>>929015
>>928989
>>928990
>>928980
This * 4. You guys got to it before me.

All I will add is that the Quake modding community took things further than the Doom modding community ever did or could. id released some very essential code that was used to create cool shit like bots (yes, bots, these actually did not exist until some dude called Omicron or I forget his name, coded them), fucking amazing 3D levels and real MP mods like TEAM MOTHERFUCKING FORTRESS.

>> No.929046

>>929037
Lest I forget, there was the Reaper bot, which I think came before the Omicron bot.
They were both mindblowing for 15-year-old me though.

>> No.929074

>>928992
>How was Doom revolutionary, it was a stripped down version of Ultima Underworld?
Ultima Underworld may have had more advanced environments earlier than Doom, but Doom's advantage was the sheer speed of both the engine and the gameplay. Also worth noting is that while Ultima Underworld was more advanced, its view was restricted to a tiny box, only a little bit more than half the size of the screen. The sequel increased the size, but it still didn't compare to Doom's view, where only the bottom part of the screen is obstructed by the HUD and even that can be removed if you think you're hard enough to play without knowing your health or ammo.

>> No.929083

>>929037
Guy who made Omicron bot was also responsible for Q2 bot - Gladiator - and official Q3 bots.
He wrote very interesting paper on this subject:
http://fd.fabiensanglard.net/quake3/The-Quake-III-Arena-Bot.pdf

>> No.929309
File: 341 KB, 550x386, quake3ad.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
929309

>>929083
Super cool, thanks a lot for the paper link!

Picture very much related

>> No.929345

>>928995
>Doom wasn't revolutionary for its engine
Compared to other FPS games before it in which you were going from hallway to hallway to square room to square room?

>> No.929428

>>929083
Thanks!
I got his name wrong, it was Mr Elusive, it's been like 15 years so the brain is a little rusted.

>> No.929442

>>929345
It was evolutionary more than revolutionary. At the time, going from Doom to Quake was far more spectacular than going from Wolf 3D to Doom.
Others may disagree. I never really gave a shit about Doom, I knew from the start it was 2.5D and that just didn't appeal to me.

>> No.929452

i love doom as well, but i think quake holds up a little better. also, i personally spent more time playing quake because i grew up with it. i was a little bit too young to play a lot of doom, although i did play a fair amount.

>> No.929871

>>929452
I just got into DOOM recently and I'm a HUGE fan (several of my friends call me Doomguy IRL), but I could not finish Quake. Not even sure why to be honest.

Captcha: nearly Eequal

>> No.930174
File: 26 KB, 510x546, 1365465240485.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
930174

Do you guys know of any good quality documentary about id? I might have seen them all but I'd like to see if there's a great one I've missed.

>> No.930589

>>929083
It's a shame that the Q3 bots kind of suck. Their AI is rudimentary as fuck, but to be fair there are practically no other bots/AI that are worthwhile anyway. The only time I've seen a bot that didn't suck dick was on a hldmc server that had bot learning and actually emulated player movement and tactics.

>> No.932109
File: 68 KB, 495x200, economy.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
932109

"half self-damage" in quake 1 rewarded mindless aggression with explosives and gave birth to the absurd rocket jump

but at the same time slow movement encouraged more tactical thinking. You couldn't just outrun everything and needed to control item respawns, and face enemies. its still a net negative, because slower movement = less skill

the romero designed quake 1 levels (the 4 intro military bases) were incredible, just as the sandy designed levels were fucking awful (episode 4)

Someone mentioned that quake modding did a lot compared to doom modding? eh? Id say they were both about the same. Quake modders did a few amazing things, and certainly some truly talented level designers made some beautiful maps, which are unfortunately a bitch to find. But Doom1 modders made thousands? Hundreds of thousands? of levels, some of which are as good as any retail product. Quake modders did more only because Id gave the player more tools.

And, this was ultimately a mistake. Look at all this super-profitable shit like TF2 and LOL/DOTA2 that are in reality just rote rip-offs of existing games. Id and Blizzard got absolutely none of that money. You may say 'so what?' but what if that happened to you?

others have already made important points above

Doom is still the better game. Half life is still complete shit that is responsible for everything that is wrong with the modern shooter: realism, stupid plot, corridors, fights involving only one enemy, no weapon imagination, no multiplayer that matters.

>> No.932479

>>932109

When it come to the single player campaign of Half Life, yes, I agree with you, it's long and boring, but when it comes to the multiplayer, it's a different story, as the pace is suddenly faster and the gameplay become brutal and fun, thanks to things like the Gauss Gun, the explosive crowbow jump and the bunny hop.

>> No.932907

>>932109
>Gave birth to the absurd rocket jump

Sorry to burst your bubble, buddy, but you could rocket jump a few years earlier in Marathon with the grenade launcher attachment on your rifle.

>> No.933248

>>932907
Not even in the same league. Neither was the flamethrower bug.

>> No.933295

That's a beautiful bride... do you think she ever played Quake?

>> No.935170

>>932109
What should we care about Blizzard or id earning money? The genre that spawned off their games and tools to their games are worth way more than money on the wallets of some devs.

>> No.935597

>>932109
>the romero designed quake 1 levels (the 4 intro military bases) were incredible
Those weren't Romero's maps, they were Tim Willits'. Didn't you read Masters of Doom?

>> No.936757

>>928976
bamp

>> No.938032

>>932109

>Doom is still the better game

You can't even aim or jump in that piece of shit. Any FPS without a Y axis can't be better than "good" and Quake was great

>> No.938054

>>928976
>what makes Quake more historically important than Doom?
Nothing. The very idea is ridiculous.

>> No.938059

>>938032
Doom wasn't an FPS, which already makes it better tham all FPS games.

>> No.938063

>>938059

Why was it not an FPS?

>> No.938069

>>938063
Because it wasn't first person. You could see the face of the marine.

>> No.938073

>>938032

>Any [insert genre] without [my own personal arbitrary limitation] can't be better than [my subjective interpretation of quality] and [my favorite game] was [very good].

Fuck off. It's this kind of shitposting that'll eventually turn this into /V/

>> No.938080

>>938073

>[my own personal arbitrary limitation]

It's an entire fucking dimension of gameplay, which in the case of a first-person shooter is really damn important and restricts you massively in the way of controls and general game design

>> No.938109

>>938080

*sigh* Next thing you know, you'll be telling me Pong is shit because it only has 1 colour and Arkanoid is so much better, all the while ignoring the gaming history from before and after each of them came out.

Put it this way: If you think Doom is a
>piece of shit
then you need some fucking perspective.

Ironically enough, given the subject.

>> No.938127
File: 169 KB, 1080x946, Shambler2.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]
938127

Are there any great single player quake mods I should be playing? I love the elaborate Doom .wads, but it just occurred to me that I've never played a badass quake mod.

>> No.938129

>>938109

What was a good game when nothing else was available isn't necessarily a good game now. Sometimes newer games abandon the good aspects of a genre and decline in quality despite improving in technology, but sometimes genres just get better over time. Pong's not a game people pick up and play now because it's not the 70s anymore and we have other things available. Doom, while having great atmosphere and aesthetic, is easily outclassed in every way by later FPS games. It has history behind it, but that matters not in the tiniest of a fuck, because I don't play games for their history, I play games to have fun. The entire appeal of a first-person shooter is being able to play a shooter with a wider range of control and perspective, and Doom doesn't do that. It might as well be a topdown shooter, the perspective change adds nothing to do the gameplay unlike in Quake

>> No.938143

>>938129
>>What was a good game when nothing else was available isn't necessarily a good game now.

This is /vr/. If you honestly think that, you don't belong here.

>> No.938149

>>938143

No, if you think "it's older so it's automatically the best," you belong on /hipster/. Plenty of old games offer things even new games don't, those are games I play. DOOM is a pile of shit that was interesting in its day but means nothing now.

>> No.938157

>>928992
>stripped down version of Ultima Underworld

Ultima Underworld is a clunky sluggish piece of neck scruff. If Doom can be called a stripped down version of it, then it's in the same sense we'd call Michelangelo's David a stripped down version of a boulder.

>> No.938161

>>938149
I never said it was the best, kiddo. You called it shit, and I said you probably don't belong here. Then you called me a hipster and continued to call it shit. the game is not shit. You are. You said you played "innovative games" but failed to mention even one. I don't think you've ever even played more than a couple levels of doom. The shareware version even.

>> No.938164

>>928976
Wasn't it the first full 3d 256 color game?

And wasn't quake 2 the first one using 3d acceleration?

Quake 3 along with UT99 practically created the tournament games.

I may be wrong , but I think that's why they are so relevant.

However I think doom is a better game overall, being quake 2 the second place.

>> No.938165

>>938161

I called it shit because it is shit. The Build Engine trilogy are the best FPS of the 90s, taking everything DOOM did and doing them 10x better while adding many more gameplay elements and actually taking advantage of the freedom that the first-person perspective allows

>> No.938167

>>928992
it was quake 2. Original Quake didn't use acceleration until GLquake came out and I don't know if quake 2 came first than the GL mod.

>> No.938168

>>929015
>Technologically it did nothing new.

More like nothing revolutionary

It was as revolutionary as Rise of the triad with wolfenstein. A lot for it's time, but little compared with either build engine (that thing was made of magic) and quake engine.

>> No.938170

>>929015
Quake didn't really need acceleration until quake 3. Quake 1 didn't have acceleration until GLquake and it looked pretty bad with it. Quake 2 looked awesome with acceleration. Quake 3 said "fuck it" and required obligatory acceleration GL compatible.

>> No.938174

>>930589
Didn't you play UT99? These bots with auto difficulty learned every of your movements.

>> No.938176

>>932479
I would say... thanks to sven coop. The multi is nice in HL but very limited. Sven coop added coop maps and really helped the multiplayer. HL was fun in coop thank to the additions that mod gave to the game like new enemies for the SP campaign

>> No.938178

>>938069
That also means quake and quake 3 weren't fps?

>> No.938576

>>935597

you're mistaken, and no I didnt watch some fag documentary. I read the fucking documentation files when the game came out rtfm stfu etc

the military bases where made by romero. please fucking looking it up so I can laugh at you. oh but no one will ever know who you are

>>938129

Sorry but you're just wrong, and you didn't provide any reasons why I should change my mind

-soccer mom compatible slower movement speed
-reloading which literally does nothing except inject randomness, especially in a FFA.
-retard concepts like juice cycles that add nothing but providing more opportunities for a frag lead to be increased into an unbeatable lead
-half self-damage HURR I SHOOT ROCKETS AT MY OWN FEET AND YOU DIE INSTEAD
-every weapon being a variation on a machine gun
-regeneration or shields
-grenade button! holy fucking shit who uses a single grenade in deathmatch? That would only work if your player moved so fucking slow that you couldn't dodge it. Oh....wait.....

Did you read those?

Those are reasons why modern deathmatch is shit, and doom is still the best.

Maybe if you could provide some reasons why even (arguable still good) games like quake 3 had good deathmatch, then we could just discuss it. But until then, you're an idiot.

>> No.938579

>>938576

oh I almost forgot

ITS REALLY FUCKING HARD TO ADD MOUSELOOK AND DIFFERENT PROJECTILE BEHAVIOR TO THE DOOM ENGINE

oh no wait, that isn't hard at all. doom stayed current, everything else slipped into mediocrity.

>> No.938590

>>938576

Nevermind I looked it up since I wanted to rub your face in it.

http://quake.wikia.com/wiki/Quake

e1m1 The Slipgate Complex John Romero
e2m1 The Installation John Romero
e3m1 Termination Central John Romero
e4m1 The Sewage System Tim Willits

oh look willits did the terrible one

my memory from 20 fucking years ago is still better than your documentary

>> No.938615

>>932109
>Half-Life
>Realism
>Stupid plot
>Fights involving only one enemy
>No weapon imagination
>No multiplayer that matters
Did we play the same fucking game? I feel you are bashing half life a la /v/ tier.

>> No.938695

>>938615
Not >>932109, but I have the same opinion about Half Life. It was painful to play that game, really dissapointing. Didn't play HL2, but I REALLY hope it's better than it's retarded father.

>> No.939053

>>938576

>my 2-dimensional game is slightly faster on foot than your 3-dimensional game, so it takes more skill. I'll just ignore any other factors!

No, don't give me that shit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cALELmIo8zk#t=1m30s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHo4l-qmGHI#t=23s

Show me why DOOM is more skillful and better than this despite its massive lack of even basic features like being able to aim your gun or jump

>> No.939067

>>938615

I'm not him either, but like it or not (and I did, I always was a sucker for better storytelling at that time), it's the single biggest reason many of us are in /vr and ignoring the constant output of doughy grey mediocre LCD shit that is the AAA game marketplace in its entirety.

>>938695

Holy crap, it's the other gamer who never played HL2! We finally meet after all this time!

>> No.939069

>>928976
>more historically important than Doom?
I dont think it is as influent as doom, but I do think it is the superior game.

>> No.939070

Doom was basically a graphically advanced maze shooter game.
Quake was the first real 3d FPS.

Also HL1 engine is basically a modified Quake engine.

>> No.939081

>>929015
>Quake launched the 3D card revolution for 3dfx, powerVR, and later Nvidia and ATI.
Well, pretty much not, at first Carmack didn't want to support 3dfx accelerated graphics.
Eidos with Tomb Raider was first to do it and TR1 looked awesome with it.
After seeing TR1 GL success Carmack made GLQuake but it didnt look that good, the standard quake textures got too blurry with it. What really did matter was the speed up in rendering allowing for higher resolutions in GL mode for Quake.

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