/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.9112302]

Doom 2 should belong in the garbage bin of terrible sequels along with Devil May Cry 2, Castlevania 2 and Deus Ex 2. Most of the levels are mario maker tier

[Anonymous No.9112310]

>>9112302
Sure, I agree on a map level view, but engine and gameplay wise it was an improvement.

[Anonymous No.9112312]

>>9112302
The opening stairs and the swastika was pretty cool. I wasn't expecting the pinkies and spectres to show up when I flipped the switch.

[Anonymous No.9112315]

whats wrong with Doom 2?

[Anonymous No.9112319]

I haven't played enough Doom 2 to really analyze why I don't like it, but I certainly do not. The first Doom's level design is just addictive, I can't put it down and want to immediately play the next one. Beating a single level in 2 feels like a chore.

[Anonymous No.9112347]

>>9112302
I personally prefer it over doom1, and the whole argument you trying to make is stupid, as you dont have to choose between them, you can enjoy both and be a happy person

[Anonymous No.9112354]

>>9112319
The episodic nature of Doom 1 is really cozy. Beating the final boss of each episode sends lots of dopamine to your brain. Doom 2 is one long journey, which gives you battle scars.

[Anonymous No.9112374]

finally based opinion
without romera design went to shitter. but romera is gamer and preferred multiplayer like real human, unlike that blonde codemonkey

[Anonymous No.9112410]

>>9112319
its easy to see why. The drab washed out colors and the shitty music.

[Anonymous No.9112414]

sandy should've been fired
people only defend this turd because of muh super shotty

[Anonymous No.9112490]

They really are, not only do they play like shit but also look like shit and feel like shit, compare that to doom 1 that actually sort of manages to get across its setting to stupid custom map tier shit like the spider mastermind crusher or tricks n traps or any of the God awful city levels
Fuck you Sandy fuck you

[Anonymous No.9112547]

>>9112302
>>9112414
>>9112490
>didn't play multiplayer
sad

[Anonymous No.9112559]

>>9112302
It's alright, the expanded enemy roster made it worth it

[Anonymous No.9112826]

>>9112302
>Doom 2 should belong in the garbage bin of terrible sequels
it would be, but it got the double barreled shotgun

[Anonymous No.9112913]

>>9112302
>Most of the levels are mario maker tie
Hate to break it to ya chud but this applies to the first game as well. All the great content creators that came as a result of these two games have far outdone the originals in every imaginable way. That doesn't make 1 or 2 bad games though they are my favorite FPS games.

[Anonymous No.9112941]

so many nu-Doom kiddies still getting filtered by Sandy and go to /vr/ to complain about level design. Get Good.
Pistol start UV without saves should be standard. And I bet you cucks are using GZDoom because reddit told you to. Vanilla or bust.

[Anonymous No.9112975]

>>9112941
I play the Custom Playstation Edition (Best version of Doom yet - John Romero), and there's nothing you can do about it.

[Anonymous No.9112983]

>>9112941
I use Odamex and I crank the gamma up to full. Get on my retina damaged level you fucking scrub.

[Anonymous No.9113072]

>>9112547
Doom 1 MP>Doom 2 MP

[Anonymous No.9113131]

>>9113072
none of the doom 1 levels are as good for deathmatch as Dead Simple and coop it's more fun because extra enemies so 1 loses pretty bad in that regard.

[Anonymous No.9113303]

The level design is a little worse, there's no reason to be overdramatic and call it a bad game.

[Anonymous No.9113310]

whats with this uptick in contrarians attacking sequels all regarded as better than the originals.
Its just old good new bad taken to an extreme.
fuck off with your spiralling bullshit

[Anonymous No.9113331]

>>9112302
> Not playing doom for the mods

[Anonymous No.9113401]

>>9112354
>The episodic nature of Doom 1 is really cozy.
It's funny, isn't it? Even though it's no different to saving and loading in theory, beating an episode gives you a sense of accomplishment/relief. Selecting an episode also feels much better than opening up the console or inputting a cheat code too.

[Anonymous No.9113593]

>>9113072
Probably troll post but how about you break down at least 3 reasons. Like someone else mentioned the maps in Doom 2 are far superior for coop and DM.

[Anonymous No.9113783]

>>9112490
you say "custom map tier shit" as if the community-created wads aren't miles better than most official doom ones lol

[Anonymous No.9114061]

doom 2 in its core is a metroidvania. it has more things in common with metroid prime 1 than with quake. dont bother changing my mind because I know I am right.

[Anonymous No.9114065]

doom 1 ON TOP

[Anonymous No.9114291]

>>9113593
1. SSG ruined the weapon balance
2. Don't care about coop
3. Standard maps suck either way, you should play on custom ones that were made with DM in mind
That's pretty much it.
Quake did it better anyway.

[Anonymous No.9114970]

plutonia > doom 2 > tnt > doom 1

doom 1 felt like a survival game because devs were kinda new to ammo placement and didnt put enough into maps.

[Anonymous No.9115154]

>>9114061
Yep. I agree. One reason why I like MP so much.

Doom 2 does have a lot more trolly and experimental levels. This can make them somtimes a slog to get through on higher difficulties I admit. Doom 1 felt more like a streamlined realistic game where one level continued to the next, not disjointed like 2. It's a reason I like 2, it's different. But the good levels in 2, that are more like Doom 1 levels but bigger and more complex are way better than Doom 1 levels.

[ᗕƸ̵̡۝Ʒᗒ No.9115298]

>>9114291
>SSG ruined the weapon balance
THIS! The ssg made all other weapons obsolete. Baron of hell? Ssg it. Archvile? Ssg it. Fucking cyberdemon? Unless you've got a bfg, ssg it.

[Anonymous No.9116131]

As a 36 yo who never played Doom until last may, I have to agree. There is no fun exploring the maps, a lot of boring secrets to review and the extreme darkness of some maps are really annoying.

I'm forcing myself to finish it and the fun is close to 0.

[Anonymous No.9116165]

>>9112302
>>9112310
>>9112319
>>9112490
>>9112826
the first 10 maps of Doom II are better than ANYTHING in Doom that isn't a part of Knee Deep in the Dead. I'm fucking sick of everyone acting like Doom 1 is just Episode 1 and then taking a giant shit all over Doom II for the 6 or 7 really bad levels when it has more good maps in totality than Doom 1 does.

[Anonymous No.9116706]

>>9116165
>playing past shareware stuff
NGMI

[Anonymous No.9116796]

>>9112302
Ah, it's idiot contrarianism, the thread.

[Anonymous No.9117484]

>>9116165
mt. erebus sure is worse than tricks and traps. in your retard head

[Anonymous No.9117490]

>>9112302
Super Shotgun.

[Anonymous No.9117535]

>>9117484
it truly is
none of the episode 3 levels are good

[Anonymous No.9117589]

>>9112302
it was an expansion pack in an age when expansion packs cost the same as a full priced game anyway

[Anonymous No.9117595]

>>9117490
did boomers really want this "violence" banned? lol

[Anonymous No.9117608]

>>9117595
Boomers always wants to ban things. Wait until the next generation gets in hers 40ties to see the real nightmare.

[Anonymous No.9117634]

>>9117595
Boomers thought the violence in Mortal Kombat was appalling. Yes, this completely cartoony Bugs Bunny tier shit you see before you here.

[Anonymous No.9117725]

>>9116706
well that's exactly my point
>Doom 1: 8 good maps
>Doom 2: 10 good maps
Doom 2 is better.

[Anonymous No.9117748]

>>9117725
how do you measure which one is a good map?
isn't it all subjective?
I enjoy e3m2 but many people feel it's dogshit because 'it's just a hand bro'

I guess there are games where you can objectively tell they are bad like any map in Marathon or Alien Breed 3D

[Anonymous No.9117764]

Other than Romero, nobody had an idea how to create maps. A few gems aside, everything beyond episode 1 (E2-4, most of Doom2, TNT, Master levels) is an amateurish mess. Plutonia was interesting, but annoying to play if you're not an incel.

Overall, episode 1, Sigil and NRFTL are the ones with actual design and fun gameplay. I also love the author's non commercial maps (E1M4-8b, Redemption of the slain)

[Anonymous No.9117812]

>>9117748
>but many people feel it's dogshit because 'it's just a hand bro'
Those people are retarded, E3M2 is like stalking through wild and arid badlands in hell, that it's shaped like a hand is just fun.

[Anonymous No.9117839]

>>9114061
>metroidvania
kys

[Anonymous No.9117930]

>>9117595
Millennials want saying 'mother' and 'father' banned, and you think boomers were ridiculous?

[Anonymous No.9117949]

>>9117595
it looks funny because it aged and because the weapon bounce that was added in later source ports. there are also gory decorations and twitching impaled dudes.
what makes something shocking is cultural. culture changes.
what you find shocking now will be laughed at in a few decades.
zoomers watch gore all day on 4chan but are scared of FNAF and backrooms...

[Anonymous No.9117956]

>>9117949
forgot to add, the gap between rendering and sprite resolution that's too big. something most modern imitations of retro games get wrong...

[Anonymous No.9118006]

>>9117748
>>9117812
E3M2 is the worst map in Doom 1 and worse than everything in Episode 4. Although I will admit it's not as bad as the city levels of Doom 2.

[Anonymous No.9118026]

>>9118006
I like the city levels in D2, they’re actually my favorite ones

[Anonymous No.9118065]

>>9118006
I think the worst map in Doom 1 is a tie between E1M9 and E2M9, the first is just really uninspired, the second just doesn't have all that much going for it beyond its brief gimmick.
I think Sandy did a much better job with gimmick maps in general for Doom 2 (Map 08 I think is one of the best iwad maps as a whole), and the whole focus on Monster Infighting works better as a central setpiece in Map 20, where there's a bunch of interesting map around it. E3M2 I think is just basically average, and not in a bad way.

[Anonymous No.9118436]

>>9112302
Deus Ex 2 was AWESOME, what are you on about?

[Anonymous No.9118465]

>>9117634
>Yes, this completely cartoony Bugs Bunny tier shit you see before you here.
MK1 and 2 weren't that cartoony for the most part. Spot on description for Robot Kombat though

[Anonymous No.9118548]

The only good level designer Doom ever had was Romero

>so you're saying that only E1 and a handful of D2 levels are good?

Yes

[Anonymous No.9118563]

>>9112490
Crusher is not only a masterpiece, but it's also a McGee map.

[Anonymous No.9118569]

You can't deny the impact doom 2 had on the gaming industry.

[Anonymous No.9118650]

>>9118065
I dunno man, E3M9 is pretty lame too. It’s just a copy of E3M1 with some additions halfway through

[Anonymous No.9118741]

The only interesting Sandy maps are Halls of the Damned, The Chasm, Monster Condo and Spirit World. The only good Hall maps are Containment Area and Deimod Lab. The only decent McGee maps are Underhalls and the Crusher.

Everything else is just Romero. But even he was much better after his return in 2016. Stuff like Gotcha or Perfect Hatred are terrible.

[Anonymous No.9118749]

>>9118741
>Underhalls and the Crusher.
Inmost Dens was better than both, IMO

[Anonymous No.9118852]

>>9118006
but what is the measure?
is it the worst as plays worst or looks worst?
what is so bad about the city levels?

[Anonymous No.9119098]

>>9112374
Romero you stupid faggot, also he was still with the company, he didnt leave until after quake 1

[Anonymous No.9119107]

>>9112374
romera is gamer and he train from child

[Anonymous No.9119116]

>>9112302
It wasn't a bad game per se, but let's not pretend it also wasn't an extremely lazy sequel that was really more like an expansion.

[Anonymous No.9119136]

The fucking worst of Doom II is still hundreds of thousands of times better than the "best" of fucking shit like Half-Life and Halo, and you fucking kids seem to love that shit.

[Anonymous No.9119216]

>>9118548
>E2M2, E2M6, and E2M7 are bad
>Map 06, Map 07, Map 10, and Map 23 are also bad
Opinion discarded.

>>9112374
That codemonkey made no levels and had fairly little input on the game's development in terms of gameplay, so I don't even know why you bring him up, Mr. ESL

>>9119116
Besides the level quality being somewhat uneven, I think it's good. It's somewhat of a cash-in project, but I really appreciate that they finished unused monsters and stuff meant for the first game to add much more depth to the gameplay.
Final Doom and then the endless fount of usermade content I think more than proves that the added monsters and the super shotgun alone were incredible additions, even if they weren't always used in the most inspiring ways in Doom 2 itself.

[Anonymous No.9119256]

>>9119216
E2M2 is really bad. The worst maze in the entire series.

[Anonymous No.9119268]

>>9119256

[Anonymous No.9119271]

And yet, these same people will say majora's mask is a classic

[Anonymous No.9119445]

>>9119256
it's not even a maze .. wtf

[Anonymous No.9119491]

>>9119268
Doom 2 Map 10 is the best map in the series
E2M2 belongs in the gutter

[Anonymous No.9119495]

9119136
Trying so hard to fit in, auster.
Back to amiga and speccy.

[Anonymous No.9121514]

>>9117930
>Millennials want saying 'mother' and 'father' banned
conservatives getting angry about things they made up themselves

[Anonymous No.9121524]

Doom 2 is just a brown expansion
i know it's an IWAD deal with it.

[Anonymous No.9121535]

>>9116131
play custom wads like btsx or going down. There are thousands of custom wads that shit all over the original levels.

[Anonymous No.9121729]

>>9121535
eviternity is the cream of the crop

[Anonymous No.9122703]

>>9112374
>>9119107
good morning sirs
remember to do the needful

[Anonymous No.9122708]

>>9116165
>10 good levels vs 37 good levels
ok

[Anonymous No.9122721]

>>9112302
Standard /vr/oom retard opinion. God this place is so fucking shit.

[Anonymous No.9123042]

>>9122708
>37 good levels
*36
Episode 3 sucks

[Anonymous No.9123434]

>>9112302
objectively wrong, play them on NM for the full Doom experience and no save scumming either

[Anonymous No.9123456]

>>9122703

Please donate a loo for me so I could do the needful. I do not have one yet!

[Anonymous No.9124464]

>>9112983
here's a name i haven't read in a long time

[Anonymous No.9124471]

>>9124464
Did it take you this long for your vision to recover too?

[Anonymous No.9124560]

>>9114291
>>9115298
SSG is a no risk rocket launcher and it's goofy.

[Anonymous No.9124564]

>>9124560
You either need the SSG or more rockets because the Doom 2 enemies are simply too tanky for anything less than weapon slot 5.

[Anonymous No.9124568]

I wasn't really big into Doom.
I was more of an rpg and strategy guy. I guess the two Johns would have called me a faggot

[Anonymous No.9124602]

I played it way toolong ago to remember the names of ech of them, but I do remember the erly level were generally gret, and the lter levels were great, but that the middle levels were walking bck and forth wondering where the fuck you're supposed to go next.

Oh, and the gimmick level were fun. Dead Simple and Barrel Boom Boom. Just fuck that one with the needle thin platform maze.

Finally it was usually pretty lame that the Doom 1 bosses keep on turning up as regular enemies. The exception was that one time a level opened with them blasting at each other. That was cool as hell. The Doom Guy wasn't the demon that all demons are afraid of yet, so the two mofos just ignored him to settle their personal grudges.

[Anonymous No.9125114]

adding to all that's been said the "music" is just garbage elevator music that is so grating to listen to

[John Romero No.9125505]

>>9124568
faggot.

[Anonymous No.9125525]

as much as I love Doom II, it essentially is just an expansion pack for the first Doom. I think the real highlight of D2 was the multiplayer, and being able to use the SSG against your buddies and niggas online.
The campaign was alright, and I'd say that the final boss was better than the Spider Mastermind in this one, since it has SLIGHTLY more strategy than "blast it with the big a few times until it dies :P". Oh, and the new enemies were fun to fight too.
I don't know, I'm reading through the thread and looking at all the criticisms, but I still love it for what it is. Hell, even Quake had it's two expansion packs and they're still better sequels than Doom 2 (or even Quake 2) were.

[ᗕƸ̵̡۝Ʒᗒ No.9125629]

>>9123434
That's a joke difficulty. Not the real Doom experience.

[John Carmack No.9125724]

>>9124568
faggot

[Anonymous No.9125765]

>>9122708
>>9123042
There are 8 good levels in Doom 1 and all of them are in Knee Deep in the Dead. E2 has the best soundtrack but the levels themselves are ass. E3 and E4 are just straight up bad like the second half of Doom II. But even Doom II has a couple of gems in the later portion of the game.

OK after writing this i remembered that E3M3 is good. So 9 good Doom levels and more than 10 good Doom II levels. Doom II. Therefore Doom II is superior.

[Anonymous No.9125851]

>>9114061
>doom 2 in its core is a metroidvania. it has more things in common with metroid prime 1 than with quake

Best definition.

[Anonymous No.9126048]

it's interesting how bits of cut doom 1 content made it into 2. i wonder how much of the game is recycled?

[Anonymous No.9126125]

>>9125765
what makes a good level in your opinion?

[Anonymous No.9126229]

>>9126125
not being shit

[Anonymous No.9126232]

>>9126229
what makes a level shit in your opinion?

[Anonymous No.9126271]

>>9114061
>doom 2 in its core is a metroidvania
Doom 2 is not a Castlevania game and it doesn't have anything in common with Metroid.

[Anonymous No.9126435]

>>9126232
not being good

[Anonymous No.9126448]

>>9126125
not him but IMO a good level:
>playable from pistol start, but isn't overtly easy even when go in strapped
>interesting visual design with diverse layout
>no gay annoying shit like pitch black areas or flickering lights
>tons of trash enemies to mow down alongside carefully-selected encounters with stronger ones in meaningful locations to guard secrets and powerups
>no excessive key hunting
>some degree of non-linearity
>sparing uae of health and armor, what's there is well-hidden and typically meaningful stuff like a megasphere or blue armor instead of 100 small medkits
>mixture of tight corridors with some large, open spaces

[Anonymous No.9126536]

>>9126448
I feel like most doom levels (1 & 2) have all this

[Anonymous No.9126618]

>slightly worse levels than a 10/10 game make a 0/10 game
What the fuck happened to /vr/

[Anonymous No.9126689]

i just beat the game on ultra violence recently and had a great time. i know there is no episode select but the game technically does have episodes and the maps do get kind of poopy near the end of episode 1 but the city levels and the end of the game were both solid enough to make it worth slogging through the shitty levels. i really enjoyed my time with doom 2 actually and its a good sequel. it does have some shitty aspects too like a few inescapable traps that force you to die or reload pretty gay.

[Anonymous No.9126885]

imagine paying full price 90 usd for this piece of shit like boomers did back in the 90s.
fuck anyone who says it's good enough, imagine getting meatballs at a restaurant and one of the three meatballs be soggy, the carrots be rotten and the mashed potatoes have big potato pieces in them, while your grandmother (the modding community) could cook it perfectly for free.

[Anonymous No.9126926]

>>9126618
it's /vr/
people will bitch about anything

[Anonymous No.9126940]

>>9124471
kek
i'm a zero gamma individual.
dark doom is best doom

[Anonymous No.9126950]

>>9112302

It's an excellent sequel and overall the better Doom. There should have been very aggressive quality control on the maps since Sandy's work, while good, was not up to "par". It never fails to amaze me that id did not take such simple measure to guarantee that their gem would shine more brightly.

Having said all that I still love DoomII and even more so than back in 1994 / 95.

[Anonymous No.9126951]

>>9126689

Could you name the maps you did not like?

[Anonymous No.9127016]

>>9126951
tricks and traps
the pit
the factory
downtown
suburbs
tenements
the courtyard
the citadel
gotcha
nirvana
catacombs
barrels of fun
the chasm
bloodfalls
the abandoned mines
monster condo
the spirit world
the living end
icon of shit

[Anonymous No.9127156]

>>9126536
not really

[Anonymous No.9127161]

>>9126885
>food analogy
you could have just said ">paying for doom"

[Anonymous No.9127269]

>>9126271
>Doom 2 is not a Castlevania game and it doesn't have anything in common with Metroid.
What are the “Metroidvania” requirements? I was always under the impression that it’s how the levels are connected throughout and how utility upgrades/unlocks can influence that.
I ask because of how frequently people label certain shooters as having “Metroidvania” elements and then being absolutely disappointed when they don’t. I haven’t played the Prime games but plenty of Castlevanias and Metroids.

[Anonymous No.9127579]

>>9126448
sounds like NEIS

[Anonymous No.9127734]

>>9126618
/v/eddit trying to ruin a good board again

[Anonymous No.9128001]

>>9126951
just circle of death really i found it pretty annoying although there were a few others later that had pain in the ass parts like the citadel with a secret within a secret thats necessary to beat the level. I didnt want to go into the secret cause i already had blue armor at 89% which is still better than green so i ran around forever trying to find how to get to that damn blue key until i had to suck it up and pick up the green armor. the map itself was great fun though its just sandy does some really gay shit like that. also the level where you have to run across the sinking platforms to get to the exit and you only have one chance or death was pretty gay because i jumped right into the pit to check for more secrets not realizing I fucked myself until it was too late.
>>9127016
he wasnt asking you and most of those are bangers actually

[Anonymous No.9128025]

>>9128001

Ok, thanks!
I would say "O' of Destruction" is maybe the 2nd best map in the entire game.
The deathtraps were still en vogue in the early 90ies. Kinda stupid but on the other hand it gave the map something to be afraid of.

[Anonymous No.9128029]

>>9127016

That's a bit stupid - if you do not like DoomII then don't play it.

[Anonymous No.9128031]

>>9128001

"The Citadel" is a good example of a map that should have been checked by another mapper and improved upon to live up to its potential.

[Anonymous No.9128132]

>>9128031
Agreed, but I still love its open ended key progression.

[Anonymous No.9128205]

>>9116165

McGee's maps were pretty amazing - cool style too.

[Anonymous No.9128210]

>>9117764

Romero was the mapper but American McGee had the more interesting entries in Doom II.
Romero was lucky to be that talented and have the opportunity to make Episode 1 where nearly everything fell into place. Besides preferring Doom2 I have to admit that episode 1 is in many ways untouchable.

[Anonymous No.9128252]

everyone raves about episode 1 but i kind of like episode 2 better. i thought the tech bases were awesome although it did have some gay petersen shit in it like having to walk over damaging floors, i found it just as enjoyable as the first overall. Then again my favorite episode of duke 3d is also episode 2. i just like the techbase theme a lot.

[Anonymous No.9128302]

>>9127269
>What are the “Metroidvania” requirements?
Castlevania game with (mostly Super) Metroid-like level design and powerups, hence why SotN was also sometimes called "castleroid".
It was never supposed to be a genre moniker, just a joke nickname for that type of Castlevania games.

[Anonymous No.9128993]

>>9128031
I thought the maps were pretty good in terms of layout. The game just needed more art assets.

[Anonymous No.9129145]

>>9128993
definitely agree the city levels could have really used some better textures. specific for those levels

[Anonymous No.9129148]

>>9112302
DOOM 2 has some of the shittiest singleplayer FPS levels ever made.

[Anonymous No.9129164]

>>9116165
shores of hell is great fuck all of you midwit hivemind faggots

[Anonymous No.9129595]

Doom 2 fans really worship and replay over and over levels that were rushed together as a quick cashgrab as the second coming of Christ. I think Doom 2 is the only commercially released video game ever to feature a factory level that has absolutely no visual elements indicative of a factory

[Anonymous No.9129603]

>>9112302
Deus Ex 2 is a good game

[Anonymous No.9129630]

>>9129595
Meanwhile Knee-Deep in the Dead fans are NPCs who get mad when someone likes a map not made by Romero (BASED GOD who can do no wrong) and if there's a map they don't like they automatically assume it was made by someone else.

[Anonymous No.9129678]

>>9119136

Kinda agree.
The whole genre took a dive.

[Anonymous No.9130176]

>>9128210
it's strange how the most liked levels are the boring techbase

[Anonymous No.9130238]

>>9130176

These maps are good because they gradually get more sophisticated and introduce new content. Their layouts are interesting, fresh(from the perspective of 1993), similar in style but also different as in gradually building upon each other... getting more abstract.
They also resemble some kind of very vague installations humans could have been in.

Add to that the unique chance of being the first kind of geometry that the players got to experience with the awesome engine... all these little facts turned the first episode into an eternal classic.

I personally prefer the McGee maps in DoomII but it's also understandable that some people swear by episode 1 - I remember entering the secret areas in E1M6 and E1M7 was mind blowing... words can't describe the utter fascination that I experienced.

[Anonymous No.9130240]

>>9129595

that's exactly why they're good - it's all very vague. The more specific you get the less it ages well.

[Anonymous No.9130242]

E1 and E4 are fantastic. Inferno is fucking terrible and D2 shouldnt exist outside of like 2 levels in the beginning

[Anonymous No.9130541]

I completely lost all faith in the 'doom community' after I learned they had to remove these bars because people couldn't figure out it's a door
just how hard it is to try and press space?

[Anonymous No.9130761]

>>9130541
>red bars require red key to open
>blank bars require nothing to open
So simple a kid could figure it out instantly, at least I did.

[Anonymous No.9131679]

>>9130541
Didn't they remove them because they were causing a map compile / engine bug which caused crashes? There's far more confusing stuff in D2

[Anonymous No.9131686]

>>9130541
Why would you ever even consider trying to open prison bars?

[Anonymous No.9132508]

>>9131686
Why wouldn't you? There's nowhere else to go and the game is basically taunting you with that switch and free shotgun + ammo.

[Anonymous No.9132550]

>>9117634
I remember thinking the gore splatters looked like those tiny canned sausages

[Anonymous No.9132569]

>>9117634
Meanwhile MK11 had their designers looking up real gore and murders and other shit, so much so that the people that worked on it needed psychological counsel after they where done.
Its the only game that's ever put me off due to how ridiculous graphic the violence is.

[Anonymous No.9132690]

>>9131686
Wolfenstein 3d had already conditioned you to spam on everything.

[Anonymous No.9132775]

>>9132690
>secrets within secrets within secrets
god damn it tom

[Anonymous No.9133372]

>>9131679
ironically they kept introducing fixes to the maps that actually caused bugs (from v1.7 patch at least)
https://youtu.be/5XO1n7Knh4s?t=178

[Anonymous No.9133471]

>>9118741
I liked tricks and traps

[Anonymous No.9133752]

>>9112302
What an exaggerated take. Just about everyone dislikes the city levels, but taking a shit on the whole game is just childish.

[Anonymous No.9133791]

>>9124568
Probably not, Romero is on record saying GOAT is Chrono Trigger. Carmack on the other hand laughs at all us puny mortals.

[Anonymous No.9133815]

>>9126232
For me, it's when the pacing of the level is either too loose, or interrupted often. For example, I dislike Industrial Zone because there isn't any real setpeice encounter, half of the map is aggro'd the moment you step out of the starting elevator. By contrast, one of my favorite Doom levels is Computer Station, E1M7, because each new room is a separate encounter, and clearing your path feels like tangible progress. It also opens up hidden monster closets in hallways you've cleared to disrupt your sense of security when you're required to backtrack, so you're constantly on your toes.

[Anonymous No.9133886]

>>9126885
Your dollar was worth more back then, so $40 for a full videogame was agreeable, especially considering the mapping and modding scene available, which still trucks on.

>>9129595
I think Doom 2 is flawed but pretty decent, not a perfect masterpiece. Yeah, Factory is a pretty awful level, but Tricks & Traps, Circle Of Death, Crusher, Chasm, Living End, Refueling Base, etc. There's lots of good levels in there.

[Anonymous No.9134601]

One real complaint that isn't a level being 1% worse than a Doom 1 level is that it used Cyberdemons and Spider Masterminds as minibosses, cheapening their impact, and didn't even make new alternatives in their class to use as bigger bosses. They even got used in gimmick formations. Things like a mancubus arena fight aren't the same to me as a proper boss, so all I got for serious boss fights was Icon of Sin at the very end.

Still a very high up game for me but this was a baffling aspect they neglected.

[Anonymous No.9134727]

>>9134601
id seems to have neglected proper boss fights mostly. even quake was lacking and only the expansions had real proper boss fights. Dissolution if Eternity had some decent boss fights. The one at the end of scourge of armagon was a pushover but still nice to see a proper boss fight.

[Anonymous No.9134735]

Hexen was the best doom engine game

[Anonymous No.9134761]

>>9134601
Cyber and Spider were not used particularly well in the first game so I'm all fine with further experimentation in Doom 2. As with much of Doom 2's new stuff, Final Doom really shows what you can do with them.

[Anonymous No.9134774]

>>9134735
>the game I knew people quit after the introduction level.
I'm sorry I tried to get past the first level but couldn't fucking take it even with the guide.
Other than that it was a marvel on how well they really showed what could be done with the engine itself.

[Anonymous No.9134785]

>>9134774
filtered

[Anonymous No.9134795]

>>9134785
Sorry that my brain is hardwired to kill shit I see not run around pressing fucking switches then trying to find out what the fuck did I just do every 10 minutes.

[Anonymous No.9134858]

here's the truth you don't want to hear but need to:
DOOM had no new tricks up its sleeve after the first episode
If you've played Knee Deep in the Dead, you've played DOOM and DOOM II

[Anonymous No.9134867]

>>9134858
isn't even true comparing episode 1 to 2 with the tower of babel and cyberdemon fight

[Anonymous No.9134882]

>>9134858
i want to call you retarded but i dont totally disagree. the actual mechanics themselves dont change, the whole experience comes down to shoot, scavange, keyhunt, etc., no matter what way you slice it, but it's how the mechanics are leveraged in different ways that make the episodes distinct and keep the experience fun. im not even a huge doom guy compared to some people but i could easily play it all day compared to much more "complex" shooters because of the relentless action, pacing, interesting visual design and secrets. that's what makes DOOM fun, not gameplay variety.

[Anonymous No.9134892]

>>9134858
The content in Tricks & Traps and The Living End alone is better than all of Knee Deep In The Dead.

[Anonymous No.9135168]

>>9134735
Heretic was better than your switch flipping simulator.

[Anonymous No.9135178]

>>9134601
I think the BFG and especially doomguy's speed trivializes any boss that they could've conceivably thought of given the engine, which is why they just gave up and made the Icon of Sin just a wall texture with a tiny head behind it and instead focused on enemy hordes.

[Anonymous No.9136696]

>>9135178
Spider Mastermind with massively higher health and high BFG resistance could have delivered a proper fight, something that takes a little strategizing. As soon as you're unable to win the damage race, it becomes an exercise in finding and using cover and potentially medpacks, which is more activity and input than holding forward and pressing fire. Cyberdemon taking dodging to beat is already fine and would be better with BFG resistance, he's at least a fight. That's in line with the campaigns' difficulty, it's not supposed to be ultra-hard for a Doom expert.

[Anonymous No.9136982]

>>9135168
Hexen switch hunts are easier to figure out compared to some of the Heretic mazes.

[Anonymous No.9137197]

>>9112302
Doom 2 has terrible maps but everything else about it was perfect from the new weapon and monsters and their impact on the gameplay. Its wierd how a game can be a technical masterpiece while completely falling flat from a "fun" perspective. (I suspect Sandy Petersen had a role in this outcome, taking Carmacks great code and doing absolutely nothing interesting with it.)

Doom 2 is a legend not because its a great game but because it is the perfect modification platform, its well made on a technical level. That is its legacy.

[Anonymous No.9137204]

imo doom 2 walked so plutonia could run

despite being really brown, plutonia's maps are FAR prettier.

[Anonymous No.9137335]

I really liked sigil and doom 64 more than D2

[Anonymous No.9137386]

>>9137204
>imo doom 2 walked so plutonia could run
Pretty much.

>despite being really brown, plutonia's maps are FAR prettier
Both Doom 2 and Plutonia are pretty brown, but I think Plutonia just uses textures in a more interesting way, both original Doom 2 ones and their new ones. It also changes the visuals a lot with the new sky textures, and there's lots of earth tone brown/greys with a bunch of green foliage/moss stuff which there's no equivalent to with Doom or Doom 2.

Plutonia is full of homages to iD's original Doom and Doom 2 levels, all over, but you don't necessarily notice most of it on a first playthrough because of how transformative it is with gameplay and visuals. A few are really obvious, but there's many places where you'll just ponder a location or visual for a while, until it hits you just what part it's based on. It's a neat kind of 'remix' that way.

[Anonymous No.9137779]

>>9118741
Dude underballs is a terrible fucking map. I actually get to it and I'm like wow this sucks ass to play. And super early into the run too.
I liked the chasm, I actually found a speed run start there long before people ever used it in runs.

I'm not sure what my favorite map is but I do like the living end a lot. Not because it's particularly the best but the design of it if you have a port that supports mouse look, you can rocket jump to the exit fucking immediately from the beginning.

[Anonymous No.9138382]

>>9137197
what are you even talking about:
Carmack had to be forced by Tom to add flying enemies in the first place
they had to force him to modify the engine when Sandy started making open area maps (e.g. Mt. Erebus)
Carmack didn't even play Wolfenstein until they started on the SNES version: he never gave a fuck about gameplay

[Anonymous No.9138952]

>>9129148
You haven't played lot of first person shooters then.

[Anonymous No.9139052]

>>9138952
I've played a lot more than you and I can safely say theybare among the eorst in anything from Duke and Marathon to Goldeneye and Postal 2. a good 2/3 of the levels are ridiculously ugly, simplistic and meandering meandering to a shocking degree.

[Anonymous No.9139089]

>>9139052
Those are still good games. Then there's the bad build games like Nam and Tekwar, bad expansions of Duke and Quakes (not the official mission packs), and lot of forgotten, even worse games. DOOM 2 might be ugly by now and have mediocre gameplay, but at least they working gameplay with finely tuned amount of challenge and good amount of nonlinearity.

[Anonymous No.9139093]

>>9138382
Carmack engines are so overrated

[Anonymous No.9139098]

>>9139093
they don't have any features but what's there is solid.

compare that to build which feels like it's held together by duct tape.

[Anonymous No.9139112]

Say it /vr/
Doom was never good

[Anonymous No.9139268]

>>9139112
doom is fun as fuck and the core mechanics are better than basically any other shooter

[Anonymous No.9139282]

>>9139268
kek

[Anonymous No.9139302]

>>9112302
Simon's Quest is superior to the first game in pretty much every way. Why don't you get good?

[Anonymous No.9139946]

>>9139282
glad you agree

[Anonymous No.9139981]

>>9138382
>Carmack had to be forced by Tom to add flying enemies in the first place
Tom didn't force Carmack to do shit, he had exactly zero leverage on him, and it's in fact Carmack who decides to have Tom fired later. Tom (and most likely also Romero) nagged Carmack about adding stuff like teleporters and flying enemies, just like they had done in the past with pushwall secrets for Wolfenstein 3D.
Carmack had refused pushwalls at first because the first approach he considered would look too crude and shitty, but they kept nagging at him and he gave in, realizing that they probably wouldn't bitch so much about it if it wasn't a really good addition to make.

>they had to force him to modify the engine when Sandy started making open area maps (e.g. Mt. Erebus)
I suspect that what you're thinking of is when Romero made this geometry in an alpha level, and the renderer completely shat its pants. Carmack was kind of pissed at this, because he was hoping that the initial portal approach he cooked up would cut it, but it would not.
Development halts for a while as Carmack goes and does research, and the solution he settles on is Binary Space Partitioning, which ended up being a vast improvement to the engine and gets carried on into future games such as Quake, and also Half-Life and others stemming from it.

If Sandy was pushing the limits anywhere, then they just had him cut levels down, and you can see this in beta versions of Doom 2 levels. For instance the backalleys in Map 14 were originally meant to be a set of docks/wharfs, but that shit cuts into your framerate hard on a 386 machine (even a 486) so it gets trimmed and simplified.

>Carmack didn't even play Wolfenstein until they started on the SNES version:
He definitely played it before then.

>he never gave a fuck about gameplay
To some extent, he absolutely did. Monsters such as the Spectre and the Arch-Vile being able to raise monsters from the dead was from his suggestions.

[Anonymous No.9139987]

>>9139112
I made your mom play Doom after I fucked her and she loved it.

[Anonymous No.9140032]

>>9139093
The entire industry sucks right now because none of the Carmack derived engines (idtech, IW, Source 2) are up for licensing, so people have to make do with shite that is Unreal or, god forsake, Unity.
That said his pre-Quake 3D stuff is jank and shouldn't be used.

[Anonymous No.9140043]

>>9139098
Doom engine is super duct tape-y itself.
Build is just on the another level of black magic.

[Anonymous No.9140852]

>>9139981
>For instance the backalleys in Map 14 were originally meant to be a set of docks/wharfs
I actually really like what it was going for with the animated wall of flames against the city skybox when you're standing on the docks and it's a shame they had to cut it.

[Anonymous No.9141380]

>>9139981
no, i'm not talking about the BSP, that was an optimisation before Sandy got on board

Carmack never cared about gameplay or understood the value of a game designer and only cared about his rendering engine - otherwise Romero, Tom, Sandy and American would be still at ID to this day

[Anonymous No.9141384]

>>9139098
strangely enough the Doom map format is absolute jank but has solid well organized code for rendering
and Build has a super organized easy to use map format but an absolute mental coding style when it comes to rendering

[Anonymous No.9141430]

>>9141384
i think everything related to maps was programmed by romero

iirc if he needed a new feature for his levels he would implement them

[Anonymous No.9141459]

>>9141430
afaik he added the light effects, scrolling and switches on top of an existing format
the main problem is that they didn't rethink the map format after coming up with sectors (e.g. it doesn't matter if wall facing is not consistent or a wall is nowhere near the sector etc)

[Anonymous No.9141606]

>>9141384
>an absolute mental coding style when it comes to rendering
You gotta admit, it's unhuman, but really beautiful in a way.