Are there any games on the original Playstation with 3D graphics as good or better than Sin and Punishment or Conker's Bad Fur Day on Nintendo 64?

File: 35 KB, 460x345, sin-and-punishment.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Anonymous Mon Jul 15 10:42:41 2013 No.905918 [Reply] [Original]

Are there any games on the original Playstation with 3D graphics as good or better than Sin and Punishment or Conker's Bad Fur Day on Nintendo 64?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 10:46:41 2013 No.905929 If i remember correctly didn't every ps1 game look better than n64 games because the use of carts crippled texture use?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 10:49:41 2013 No.905938 >>905929 Not really, without FMV and CD audio N64 and PS1 games are roughly similar in size.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 10:51:41 2013 No.905943 >>905929 that bullshit.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 10:53:41 2013 No.905951 Spywo the Dwagon had pretty good 3D. The Wipeout series is pretty solid as well.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 10:57:41 2013 No.905959 >>905938 FF VII is 250MB if FMV/audio is subtracted. The maximum N64 cartridge size is only 25% of that.

Anonymous Mon Jul 15 10:58:41 2013 No.905961

>>905938
Erroneous. Psx games used their own custom textures. N64 games had to use pre generated texture banks stored in the console and manipulated through zooming and blurring. Anyone who thinks textures on N64 are even close to as good as textures on psx is an idiot. The 3D rendering on N64 was a bit better and the n64 had some built in smoothing and anti aliasing the psx lacked, which cobbler does a good job of demonstrating so if that's what OP meant, then probably not but its a matter of personal taste. Psx games could look more realistic while n64 games were
limited to a particular "cartoony" look.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 11:00:41 2013 No.905967 >>905959 It also took 3 CDs.

Anonymous Mon Jul 15 11:01:41 2013 No.905971

>>905961
This was a contemporary review of Crash 3 I found on Usenet archive:

"This game really showcases if anything the superiority of the PS1 and its disc format. Check out the shimmering water in the wave ride levels. That kind of detail just wouldn't be possible with the N64's limited space."

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 11:02:41 2013 No.905972 >>905967 Of course. You can't make games that size when you're limited to <64MB.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 11:02:41 2013 No.905973 >>905959 >FF VII is 250MB if FMV/audio is subtracted Yeah but FFVII isn't a particularly 3D game. It's basically a massive collection of 2D JPEG images with 3D lego men running around on top of them.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 11:03:41 2013 No.905976 It seems to me that PS1 games had good backgrounds but shitty character models while it was the reverse for N64

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 11:03:41 2013 No.905978 File: 79 KB, 680x497, 1315686646001.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >PS1 >good 3D graphics

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 11:04:41 2013 No.905980 >>905961 >The 3D rendering on N64 was a bit better That's an understatement if I ever heard one. The N64 performed 3D rendering. The PSX did not.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 11:04:41 2013 No.905981 >>905978 None of the 5th gen consoles have good 3D graphics. The technology matured only with the next gen.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 11:05:41 2013 No.905985 >>905961 >Anyone who thinks textures on N64 are even close to as good as textures on psx is an idiot Try playing OOT. Jesus Christ, it's like someone smeared vasoline on the TV.

Anonymous Mon Jul 15 11:05:41 2013 No.905989

>>905971
>"This game really showcases if anything the superiority of the PS1 and its disc format. Check out the shimmering water in the wave ride levels. That kind of detail just wouldn't be possible with the N64's limited space."

But Wave Race 64 had WAY better shimmering water. I heard that when developing those jet ski levels in Crash 3, Naughty Dog had to hack the shit out of the PS1 hardware in order to pull it off because the hardware just wasn't capable of it directly.

Anonymous Mon Jul 15 11:07:41 2013 No.905993

>>905989
>I heard that when developing those jet ski levels in Crash 3, Naughty Dog had to hack the shit out of the PS1 hardware in order to pull it off because the hardware just wasn't capable of it directly
Heck, they did that on the N64 all the time. In fact maybe more often. Half of Rareware's games were made possible by exploiting kewl hax.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 11:08:41 2013 No.905995 Saturn was here. You're all gay.

Anonymous Mon Jul 15 11:08:41 2013 No.905997

>>905961
>Psx games used their own custom textures. N64 games had to use pre generated texture banks stored in the console and manipulated through zooming and blurring.
What the fuck does this even mean?

Have you ever written a single line of code for either console?

Anonymous Mon Jul 15 11:09:41 2013 No.905998

>>905976
Because the n64 was built with more specialized 3D hardware that could render small clusters of polygons more tightly and with hardware smoothing but there want room on the cartridges for awesome 2D images for textures and backgrounds. A character model on the psx could have real cool textures but when the hardware shrink them down that small it all got lost in signature psx looseness and jaggies.

Anonymous Mon Jul 15 11:09:41 2013 No.906001

>>905993
I was watching that Conker director's commentary, and they said that they hacked the N64's microcode so that Conker could have up to 4 dynamic lights illuminating environments and casting shadows at the same time. That's fucking insane for such old hardware.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 11:10:41 2013 No.906002 I think we need to look at things in perspective. PS1 was the oldest of the 5th gen consoles, so of course it would have the weakest hardware.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 11:12:41 2013 No.906005 >>906002 That is the dumbest thing I have read on this board.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 11:13:41 2013 No.906006 >>906005 PS1 (1994) Saturn (1995) N64 (1996) Duh?

Anonymous Mon Jul 15 11:13:41 2013 No.906007

>>905997
Yes I wrote all of Goldeneye and Final Fantasy Tactics in longhand on college ruled notebook paper.

Seriously though, fuck you. The N64's "texture bank" is not only widely documented its also obvious to anyone who plays a lot of N64 and has any kind of an eye for details. You'll see the same "tree" and "rock" and "grass" and "metal"textures over and over again just zoomed and blurred differently. Open your fucking eyes.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 11:15:41 2013 No.906008 >>906006 Saturn has the weakest 3D hardware but it's the only one that can do proper 2D sprite gaming

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 11:15:41 2013 No.906010 >>906008 Interestingly, it has 75% more games than the N4 despite half the lifespan and sales

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 11:15:41 2013 No.906012 >>906008 Even so, it has some pretty nice 3D games. Cybertroopers is god tier.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 11:16:41 2013 No.906013 N64 has no gaems

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 11:17:41 2013 No.906015 >>906012 Saturn games are great, but 3D graphics in them still suck. On the other hand, if not for the limitations, something like Panzer Dragoon would never have been so goddamn inventive with it's effects.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 11:18:41 2013 No.906018 >>906006 errr the Saturn came out in 1994 as well. And before the PS1 did.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 11:21:41 2013 No.906025 >>906018 Yep, that was the point of the surprise E3 launch.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 11:26:41 2013 No.906035 >>905959 >FF VII is 250MB if FMV/audio is subtracted. The maximum N64 cartridge size is only 25% of that. they squeezed two discs of RE2 on a single N64 cart

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 11:28:41 2013 No.906041 File: 109 KB, 640x448, BulkSlash_Leone.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>906015 Bulk Slash is actually one of the best 3D games on the Saturn, and it looks very good (though this picture might not do it justice).

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 11:29:41 2013 No.906046 >>906035 Most of the content on both discs should be roughly the same though, as it's all the same locations throughout both campaigns.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 11:31:41 2013 No.906049 >>906046 Well you can visit almost all the same areas on all three discs of FF7.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 11:31:41 2013 No.906050 >>906010 When your console is functionally identical to arcade hardware that's bound to happen

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 11:31:41 2013 No.906053 >>906041 Look how the good parts are all 2D. And how horrible the 3D is. The player character is 2d, see? That's why it looks good. 3D on Saturn was invariably awful.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 11:31:41 2013 No.906054 >>906035 With two years of squeezing - although n64 re2 is pretty amazing especially with those 3D control schemes

Anonymous Mon Jul 15 11:33:41 2013 No.906059

>>906007
>Seriously though, fuck you. The N64's "texture bank" is not only widely documented its also obvious to anyone who plays a lot of N64 and has any kind of an eye for details. You'll see the same "tree" and "rock" and "grass" and "metal"textures over and over again just zoomed and blurred differently. Open your fucking eyes.
I don't know where you're getting this information, but it's completely nonsensical. Both consoles have a limited amount of VRAM which is loaded with textures from the game media and then used for rendering. The N64 hits a performance wall if you try to use too much texture data per frame.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 11:34:41 2013 No.906061 Saturn has shit 3D because they used rectangular polys instead of the normal triangles

Anonymous Mon Jul 15 11:34:41 2013 No.906064

>>906008
>it's the only one that can do proper 2D sprite gaming
PSX can render 2D sprites just fine. N64 can as well, but any scaling will be filtered and look like ass. (I'm almost certain you can turn off the N64's texture filtering, but Nintendo disallowed it.)

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 11:35:41 2013 No.906065 >>906059 There was a huge crippling limitation in the fact that the N64 had only 4k of texture RAM. 8k would have done a great deal to improve things.

Anonymous Mon Jul 15 11:36:41 2013 No.906068

>>906053
>And how horrible the 3D is.
Looks perspective-correct, unlike the Playstation.

The Saturn had a number of relatively fixed-function 3D features (a couple perspective-correct rotating background layers, etc). It was made for 2D games with 3D effects.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 11:36:41 2013 No.906070 >>906065 Quick! Go back back 20 years and tell Nintendo they're going to make a huge fucking mistake!

Anonymous Mon Jul 15 11:38:41 2013 No.906078

>>906064
>N64 can as well, but any scaling will be filtered and look like ass. (I'm almost certain you can turn off the N64's texture filtering, but Nintendo disallowed it.)

You can turn off texture filtering, and Nintendo did allow it in the later years. Developers kept it on because it actually does make those tiny 4KB textures look better.

Texture filtering is less important the bigger the textures are (because less scaling is needed). N64 textures were very small, so texture filtering was very important.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 11:40:41 2013 No.906083 File: 42 KB, 350x263, gdarius01xu7[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>905918 Yes there is. This is the first example that comes to mind.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 11:45:41 2013 No.906089 >>905995 Saturn had the worst 3-D of the three, so OK.

Anonymous Mon Jul 15 11:54:41 2013 No.906110

>>906002
Thats a dangerous assumption when nintendo exists. The wii was hardly a powerhouse of its generation despite the launch date.

The N64 is in a stange position of being technically superior in most areas and then crippled by being a cart based system. CDs are a revolution compared to carts every edge the N64 offered was only incremental by comparison.

Didn't the neo geo launch before the SNES? I think that was technically superior too?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 11:57:41 2013 No.906117 >>906110 The NEO GEO kicked the SNES's ass.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 12:01:41 2013 No.906127 >>905951 neither of those really measure up to N64 games though

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 12:01:41 2013 No.906128 >>906110 The Neo-Geo was $600. Of course it was superior.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 12:01:41 2013 No.906129 >>906110 Neo Geo couldn't do true transparency, hardware rotation, and some of the advanced "mode 7" stuff that SNES could do. But yes, it was more powerful and came first.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 12:03:41 2013 No.906132 >>906068 >Looks perspective-correct, unlike the Playstation. yeah, because all Playstation games look exactly the same

Anonymous Mon Jul 15 12:03:41 2013 No.906134

>>906078
Looking back, it's like both Sony and Nintendo had two ways of doing things and they both picked the worst ways combined. The PSX could do big textures, but the lack of perspective correct rendering meant they had to tesselate large surfaces to make the texture warp at sheer angles less horrendous; plus it could render around twice the polys as the N64 per frame but they had to render more on flat surfaces, gah. The N64 could have a single quad extend miles into the distance with no texture warping, but it was limited to a 64x64 texture so you had horrible tiling or so blurry it might as well be a solid colour. And you were so fill rate limited tesselating with a 4x4 grid of 64x64 to equal the 256x256 that was standard hurt performance badly.
Both platforms had amazing games despite the limitations, but holy fuck those devs must've been looking at the 3DFX and crying into their Green PSX dev kits.

Anonymous Mon Jul 15 12:04:41 2013 No.906135

>>906053
Again, the screenshot doesn't do the game justice. I'd recommend looking up some videos- the game is extremely fun and well-worth emulating (though keyboard control is hard for a game that needs the shoulder buttons to rotate the camera). Though you are right that the animated co-pilot thing is easily the game's hook (it's why Japan loved it, at any rate).

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 12:06:41 2013 No.906139 >>906117 >just makes a generic "IT KICKS ASS" statement that doesn't contribute to the conversation at all. Why are most Neo Geo fans like this? It's like they become raving lunatics when ever their favorite system is mentioned...

Anonymous Mon Jul 15 12:07:41 2013 No.906142

>>906129
>Neo Geo couldn't do true transparency, hardware rotation, and some of the advanced "mode 7" stuff that SNES could do. But yes, it was more powerful and came first.

It could do sprite scaling though which was probably more useful than having a single rotating and scaled background that could be manhandled into a forced perspective 3D infinite plane.

Anonymous Mon Jul 15 12:08:41 2013 No.906147

>>906132
All Playstation games lack perspective correction because this is a inherent limitation in the hardware.

>>906134
I agree with pretty much the whole of this post except:
>it could render around twice the polys as the N64 per frame

The N64 could render three times the number of polygons as the PSX if it played on even ground with perspective correction turned off, z-buffering turned off, texture filtering turned off and so on.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 12:08:41 2013 No.906148 no mention of vagrant story?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 12:09:41 2013 No.906151 >>906135 >if you use emulation you must use the keyboard why does everyone here assume this? you would think that more people here would use gamepads with emulators....

Anonymous Mon Jul 15 12:11:41 2013 No.906158

>>906151
I casually emulate, meaning I just stick with arrows and keyboard. Since i only emulate 16bit games, it's not really a problem for me. I've considered a saturn usb controller, but I have yet to justify a use for it, since all I own is a laptop and it's not' worth it to play on a laptop when my tv is 4 feet away.

Anonymous Mon Jul 15 12:15:41 2013 No.906164

>>906147
>All Playstation games lack perspective correction because this is a inherent limitation in the hardware.
I always wondered why more games didn't use a column-rendering approach like Doom. The PSX hardware would be very fast at doing the inner loop of the Doom renderer, especially if a little "fudge" was allowed (2-pixel-wide affine stripes, etc).

Anonymous Mon Jul 15 12:17:41 2013 No.906167

>>906158
>Since i only emulate 16bit games, it's not really a problem for me.
do you mean you only play 16bit RPGs?
because anything other than RPGs on a keyboard plays like shit... and some RPGs do as well. I bet you are the type that also goes in every thread emulators are mentioned and say all games play like shit in them just because you have used nothing buy a keyboard.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 12:18:41 2013 No.906169 File: 26 KB, 320x181, 2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Come to me Dark Warriors, battle awaits us shut up, I know it's not REALLY 3D

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 12:19:41 2013 No.906170 >>906167 No, I only play action games, platformers, and shmups, which play just fine. Games that make heavy use of the shoulder buttons though, don't work for me E.G. Assault Suits Valken (so I just bought Cybernator instead).

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 12:35:41 2013 No.906194 >>906167 >because anything other than RPGs on a keyboard plays like shit Only if your keyboard is crap.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 12:46:41 2013 No.906218 >>906054 It also has more content, go figure.

Anonymous Mon Jul 15 14:07:41 2013 No.906435

I don't think the PS1 ever reached the kind of graphics Sin and Punishment displayed, that's not to say PS1 couldn't do good 3D, some devs were really creative and did impressive stuff, but while the N64 was hard as all fuck to develop for, also some devs were skilled enough to come up with really impressive shit as well, S&P is one example, another game I also like how great it looks is Evangelion 64, the game may be shit, but god damn it looks good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6eRS9VQ8Ms
(bear in mind this video is from using an emulator and as such has some graphical errors, mostly on backgrounds and stuff, obviously it looks much better on actual hard, but you can still appreciate the 3D models and their animations)

Anonymous Mon Jul 15 15:45:41 2013 No.906671

>>906050
This is a myth. You can say it for the Dreamcast because of NAOMI hardware's success, but the Saturn's ST-V hardware counterpart had nowhere near the amount of games NAOMI had. Saturn had a lot of arcade ports that were just plain rewritten for Saturn hardware.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 15:51:41 2013 No.906693 >>905967 The only real diff in the CDs were select scenes and the FMVs. If there were no FMVs at all, it would easily fit on a single disk.

Anonymous Mon Jul 15 15:51:41 2013 No.906695
File: 376 KB, 1280x960, mupen64plus-ui-console 2013-04-10 18-09-29-82.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

It's interesting to see the results of kinda sorta reversing the roles of the PS1 and N64 when it comes to textures.

This is OoT with texture filtering forcefully turned off. You can see why it was very necessary to have it on. Fucking 4KB texture cache, man.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 15:53:41 2013 No.906704 >>906148 The character models and their animation look great, but everything else is average. All the areas are tiny in scope and graphically unimpressive.

Anonymous Mon Jul 15 16:13:41 2013 No.906770
File: 2.52 MB, 1920x1080, pcsxr 2013-07-13 04-46-04-73.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

On the other hand, here's FFIX with texture filtering. It's obviously not the most accurate thing to do, and it does expose polygon seams, but some textures do look better this way.

Anonymous Mon Jul 15 16:21:41 2013 No.906784

>>906770
Filtered high-res PSOne is much better looking than fitlered high-res N64, because N64 has bad textures etc.

Ordinary 3D often looked better on N64, but not always. Vagrant Story was in no way worse than Conker, final fantasy VIII and IX battles, Chrono Cross battles and such all had amazing 3D.

Anonymous Mon Jul 15 17:06:41 2013 No.906887

>>906784
The problem with hi-res PS1, however, is the polygon wobbling becomes much more pronounced the higher you raise the internal resolution. Even on that still shot, you can notice the symptoms of it. Zidane's head is deformed, Steiner's sword is crooked, etc.

Anonymous Mon Jul 15 17:34:41 2013 No.906986

>>906887
>the polygon wobbling becomes much more pronounced the higher you raise the internal resolution
Unless you're using that one magical early version of PCSXR with an experimental GTE hack. It breaks some games that use internal position hacks on their own (Psygnosis games come to mind) but it totally recreates the depth buffer for the games that work with it.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 17:36:41 2013 No.906993 >>906986 >Unless you're using that one magical early version of PCSXR with an experimental GTE hack Uh, that got integrated into mainline development long ago, only it was made an option in the bundled OpenGL plugin.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 18:15:41 2013 No.907074 >>906993 No, the hack that got integrated is somewhat cut down, probably for the compatibility reasons I mentioned. It uses the GTE accuracy but doesn't have the option to recreate depth info as well. I use both emulators and I can tell the difference.

Anonymous Mon Jul 15 19:03:41 2013 No.907181

Firstly, Ocarina of Time is not a valid example of the N64's texture capabilities. We always knew it looked terrible. The game was a very early N64 game - like Goldeneye.

The N64 is a LOT like the PS3. In order to code effectively for it, developers had to work out how to spread the processing load over the main MIPS processor and the RSP coprocessor. The RSP was supposed to be for graphics, but it could be used for anything the devs wanted.

Also, devs had to work out how to take advantage of the unified memory structure.

Also, the PS3 and N64 share a design mentality designed to exclude "inferior" developers - basically, if you couldn't code effectively for the N64, Nintendo didn't want you making games for it. The PS3 unfortunately backfired - devs insisted on making games for it despite poor understanding of the hardware - hence the chuggy shovelware and chuggy ports.

And another thing. Vagrant Story? Seriously?

Vagrant Story compresses down to 120MB. Remove the intro FMV, and it'd be smaller. I've no doubt Vagrant Story would have worked just fine on a 64MB cartridge. And while VS is a decent looking PS1 game, the texture quality is HORRIBLE. The only reason the game looks so good is art design.

You see how the castle is made of bricks? Those are PIXELS. BROWN PIXELS. The polygon counts on the models can't be very high considering their pants are square.

Anonymous Mon Jul 15 19:23:41 2013 No.907219
File: 524 KB, 1280x982, Project64 2013-07-15 18-19-18-40.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>907181
Yeah, I guess OoT isn't exactly the best game for that, considering the wizardry developers like Factor 5 and Rare employed late in the N64's life cycle.

Even with texture filtering turned off, Conker still looks pretty good.

Anonymous Mon Jul 15 19:27:41 2013 No.907224
File: 735 KB, 1280x982, Project64 2013-07-15 18-24-44-75.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>907219
The texture work in Conker beats the shit out of most of the stuff that came before it. Though it does need filtering, but more to enhance the texture work rather than to hide how small and low-res the textures really are, like in OoT.

Anonymous Mon Jul 15 19:45:41 2013 No.907259
File: 217 KB, 800x600, Glide64_CONKER_BFD_22.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>907224
The significant difference between OoT and Conker is that Conker takes multiple small textures and clamps them onto larger objects, instead or trying to stretch a single texture over a single object.

I took a screenshot myself. As you can see, the texture filtering makes a big difference. And here's the thing - the filtering is valid technical function. For a start, it's crucial for blending texture layers. I don't get why people are so upset by filtered textures. All modern games perform texture filtering to some extent.

Anonymous Mon Jul 15 19:49:41 2013 No.907263
File: 226 KB, 800x600, Glide64_CONKER_BFD_23.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>907259
And here, of course, is one of Conker's many idle animations, fetched rapidly thanks to cartridge streaming. Whether he's drinking something, playing Killer Instinct, or reading magazines, he's always got his squirrelish charm.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 19:50:41 2013 No.907264 >>906035 Nigga that is what I call Good porting.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 19:52:41 2013 No.907265 >>907263 Yeah Rare always did squeeze the N64 to its limits.

Anonymous Mon Jul 15 19:52:41 2013 No.907267
File: 660 KB, 1280x982, Project64 2013-06-26 17-44-58-31.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>907259
Texture filtering on the N64 is only given a bad rap because it supposedly makes textures look smudged to fuck, but as has been demonstrated in this thread, it's not texture filtering that's to blame, but rather the abysmally low resolution of textures on most N64 games, and the fact that a lot of textures are, as you said, just a single texture being blown up tenfold or more.

I have one personal gripe with texture filtering, but it's exclusively an issue with N64 emulation, namely that it looks terrible on UI elements and text, sprites, etc. Just look at this shit. The text is absolutely ruined. But you gotta live with it, because the alternative is no texture filtering at all.

Anonymous Mon Jul 15 19:53:41 2013 No.907268

>>907264
The key behind the N64 port was more efficent texture compression for backgrounds (even if they did come out a bit blurry) and sequenced music which used higher quality samples than the PS1 original. The FMV quality took a hit, but in my opinion that doesn't detract hugely from the game. Most of the game's storytelling is ingame.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 19:56:41 2013 No.907272 >>907265 Not surprising since they probably made more good games for it than even Nintendo did.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 19:57:41 2013 No.907273 >>907267 Press Backspace dummy. That's not how it's supposed to look.

Anonymous Mon Jul 15 20:03:41 2013 No.907276
File: 73 KB, 640x480, Glide64_CONKER_BFD_24.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>907267
>>907273
Na, dude. He's probably running automatic filtering, which obeys what the devs wanted. Here's how it looks with point sample filtering.

To be honest, using textures for text is a really shitty idea. I can't imagine why they did it, beyond convenience.

Anonymous Mon Jul 15 20:04:41 2013 No.907279
File: 242 KB, 1280x600, CAN'T LET YOU FILTER THAT.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

One other thing people don't realize about the N64 that also contributes to the whole "blurry and smudged" reputation it has is that the real hardware, on top of texture filtering, also employed full-screen anti-aliasing, blending, and combining, which removes a lot of visible dithering and jaggies, but also makes the image look more blurry.

Using a certain plugin, you can enable or disable this filtering, resulting in more PS1-esque graphics, as shown on the left. The right is very close to how the real thing actually looks like. Note that conventional N64 plugins do not accurately capture how the real hardware looks.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 20:04:41 2013 No.907280 >>907276 That's close to how it looks on my tv. Needs to be a bit blurrier though..

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 20:09:41 2013 No.907285 File: 182 KB, 1024x768, conker text.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>907280 Here you go.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 20:10:41 2013 No.907289 >>907285 Wow, did you do that with an emulator or did you take a screencap from a real N64? =)

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 20:11:41 2013 No.907290 >>907279 A real N64 has much lower contrast than an emulator.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 20:12:41 2013 No.907291 >>907290 Go compare it to the real hardware. Trust me, the right pic is the more accurate one. For whatever reason, disabling the "filtering" makes it look darker.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 20:13:41 2013 No.907293 >>906695 god damn the grass is really just a steps away of looking like a minecraft block

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 20:14:41 2013 No.907296 >>907289 Emulator, using a highly accurate plugin that properly reproduces the N64's graphical output. It requires damn near a NASA computer to run it at full speed, though.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 20:15:41 2013 No.907297 >>907291 That's what I mean - a real N64 is brighter, and has a more washed out look. I wasn't contradicting you.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 20:15:41 2013 No.907303 >>907296 To be honest, I think a lot of the issues with glitchy text in emulators. lowers voice ARE BECAUSE THE EMULATORS ARE KINDA SHITTY.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 20:18:41 2013 No.907309 >>907303 Well that's what happens when coders begin to think they are entitled to some form of reimbursement for their emulators. They decide that they're going to get lazy unless people donate or something.

Anonymous Mon Jul 15 20:19:41 2013 No.907312

>>907303
They are, but in regards to the text, it's because almost all the plugins use high-level methods to approximate the N64's graphics, using features built into PC hardware rather than simulating what the N64 actually used. So when a game used filtering on text, it's done using techniques familiar to your graphics hardware, which doesn't always translate well to the game's graphics. The N64's texture filtering is a bit different to that used in conventional PC games.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 20:19:41 2013 No.907313 >>907309 It's not entitlement, it's greed.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 20:25:41 2013 No.907320 >>907313 >>907312 >complaining about something that took thousands of man-hours to make having optional donations Stay classy 4chan.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 20:25:41 2013 No.907321 >>906695 >OoT with texture filtering forcefully turned off do you have anymore screenshots on this, or how to do this? I findmyself enthrealled

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 20:27:41 2013 No.907324 >>907320 >optional Fuck no. Zilmar ran his closed Project64 1.7 beta donation scam from 2004 until a few months ago.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 20:28:41 2013 No.907326 >>907321 Install Glide64. Press Backspace twice. Witness as all the blending effects stop working.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 20:30:41 2013 No.907328 >>907320 >>907324 Not to mention the fact Jabo quit PJ64 for undisclosed reasons, then released Project 64 1.6.1 on his own, being sure to remind everyone that PJ64 1.6.1 was better than the 1.7 beta.

Anonymous Mon Jul 15 20:31:41 2013 No.907334

>>907320
What? I wasn't complaining. I was pointing out that filtering on conventional N64 plugins kinda sucks because it's using PC filtering techniques on console games, which doesn't translate well on some cases. And I understand this was the road people chose to follow because even today in 2013, very few computers are capable of running a truly accurate implementation of the N64's RDP at a good speed. The HLE approach basically was THE approach to take back in the early days of N64 emulation, and to a good extent that remains the case even now.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 20:33:41 2013 No.907337 >>907324 What Zilmar forgot is that most of Project 64's problems are related to Microcodes and AV plugins. And he's not able to fix either of these things himself.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 20:35:41 2013 No.907338 >>907326 thank you

Anonymous Mon Jul 15 20:35:41 2013 No.907340

>>907334
It's interesting that in the early days, it turned out that the Voodoo cards were really, really good at N64 emulation because things like framebuffering were handled in an almost identical manner to real n64 hardware. That's where Glide64 originated - now it's run via wrappers. And frankly, modern video hardware simply isn't that great at emulating the N64 framebuffer.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 21:16:41 2013 No.907408 >>907181 The N64's lifespan was roughly 1996-2001. Ocarina was released in 1998. It's right in the middle of the N64's lifespan. And speak for yourself because I thought the game looked great.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 21:27:41 2013 No.907440 what's the best emulator for sin and punishment? and is there any good way to play it with a keyboard?

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 21:34:41 2013 No.907457 >>905961 That's completely false about the "texture banks". Though, there may have been default textures available within a dev kit maybe.

Anonymous Mon Jul 15 21:39:41 2013 No.907468

>>907408
Its development began much earlier than the release date - same as Goldeneye. Goldeneye was developed before real N64 hardware became available. OoT was designed for the N64 Double Drive, before being scaled down for the N64. The drastic jump in quality with Majora's Mask is a clear indicator of this.

Anonymous Mon Jul 15 21:44:41 2013 No.907474

>>907440
PJ64 1.6.1 + Glide64 plugin.

There is also a HQ Texture Pack with translated subtitles floating around somewhere.

I recommend playing with Mouse + KB.

Bind the stick to the mouse, A and B to E and R, Z to LMB, and C-buttons to WASD. Maybe bind R shoulder button to Q.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 21:59:41 2013 No.907512 >>907474 Is 1.6.1 really better than the actual latest Project64? I doubt that, 2.1 runs a ton of things better for me than 1.6 and 1.7 did.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 22:01:41 2013 No.907517 >>907512 2.1 fixed a few games and broke others. If you use it, do NOT use the bundled plugins. http://www.mediafire.com/download/61dvb4n9xk25oo6/Project64.rar This has both 1.6 and 2.1, along with a bunch of plugins.

>>	Anonymous Mon Jul 15 22:18:41 2013 No.907557 File: 202 KB, 500x337, crash.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] this game

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 06:35:41 2013 No.908403 File: 1.04 MB, 1095x1415, real_n64.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] I took some REAL N64 captures from GameShark Pro connected to PC through parallel cable.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 08:02:41 2013 No.908519 >>908403 stares You know, those look bloody good. Goldeneye especially. Be nice to see how Perfect Dark, Majora's Mask, Turok 3, Bad Fur Day, and Indiana Jones and the Infernal Machine look.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 08:03:41 2013 No.908523 >>907557 Crash 1,2,3 are bloody good looking games. Yes, the games have low polygon counts and a lot of technical trickery, but the games look beautiful - Crash 3 is visually better than anything any other developer created for the PS1.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 12:38:41 2013 No.908931 >>908403 Interesting. It seems this device bypasses the N64's anti-aliasing and blending for those shots.

Anonymous Tue Jul 16 12:55:41 2013 No.908975

>>905918
>Are there any games on the original Playstation with 3D graphics as good or better than Sin and Punishment or Conker's Bad Fur Day on Nintendo 64?

Overall PS1 graphics were so much better. N64 had blurry ugly textures and graphics.

However, Sin and Punishment and Conker's Fur Day are better looking than anything in the PS1 library.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 12:56:41 2013 No.908978 File: 37 KB, 640x480, vagrantstory0103.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 12:56:41 2013 No.908980 >>908519 They look pretty much exactly like the SoftGraphic plugin on N64 emulators looks, with filtering disabled.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 12:59:41 2013 No.908997 File: 76 KB, 900x675, gfs_50218_2_226.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Chrono Cross

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 12:59:41 2013 No.908998 Ridge Racer Type 4 and Vanark.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 13:08:41 2013 No.909029 >>908403 >I took some REAL N64 captures from GameShark Pro connected to PC through parallel cable. This looks really good. Do you think this could be used as some kind of hack to the n64 systems to produce higher image quality?

Anonymous Tue Jul 16 13:08:41 2013 No.909032

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Driver_Championship

"One of the last racing simulations to be released for Nintendo 64, this graphically intensive title used custom microcode optimization and high polygon count modelling. The development team was able to optimize the usage of the various processors within the N64 to allow far draw distance (reducing the need for fog or pop-up), high detail texturing and models, Doppler effect MP3 audio, and advanced lighting and fog effects for realistic weather conditions. Impressively the game has a high resolution 640x480 mode that does not require the add-on N64 RAM Expansion Pak. Additionally, unlike many other games of its type on the platform, the game runs high resolution at a sufficiently playable pace, undoubtedly due to the use of a reduced screen area letterbox mode that lessens the number of pixels needing to be displayed."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dACWGnfKKw

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 13:20:41 2013 No.909083 >>909032 >>908998 So the answer is that the N64 could produce more graphically impressive games than the Ps1 or Saturn, but only did in a few examples because of how difficult the N64 was to design for. On the average the ps1 had better visuals.

Anonymous Tue Jul 16 13:27:41 2013 No.909108

The Nintendo 64 was difficult to program for, but powerful in the right hands (i.e. Rareware, Factor 5, Boss Studios, etc).

The 4KB texture memory meant that no individual texture could be larger than 4KB. Also it meant you could only stream in 4KB of textures at any one time. If they were all that big they had to load in one at a time. If not texture loading was not managed properly, it would bog down the GPU's fill rate (which was VERY easy to do without careful programming).

Texture filtering is there to LITERALLY cover up the very small texture size. It works somewhat - filtering can aesthetically improve how detailed textures appear through computational prediction, but it's not a magic bullet (looks blurry close up). Additionally, texture filtering also hits the GPU fill rate.

TLDR: N64 programming was a careful balancing act to ensure the GPU's fill rate wasn't overwhelmed. Only the best programmers could get it just right.

Yamauchi, the old Nintendo CEO, admitted around the time of the Gamecube launch that he purposefully made the N64 hard to develop for in order to weed out the bad developers.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 13:30:41 2013 No.909119 I'd say the best-looking N64 games look better than the best-looking PS1 games.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 13:36:41 2013 No.909127 >>909108 >Yamauchi, the old Nintendo CEO, admitted around the time of the Gamecube launch that he purposefully made the N64 hard to develop for in order to weed out the bad developers. He should have been fired for that.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 13:37:41 2013 No.909129 >>909127 He stepped down shortly afterwards.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 13:38:41 2013 No.909132 File: 89 KB, 1024x819, 1373995316471[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>909119 >I'd say the best-looking N64 games look better than the best-looking PS1 games. Cheating because of emulation I know.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 13:41:41 2013 No.909138 >>909132 Not to mention CC battles run at like 10fps on the real hardware.

Anonymous Tue Jul 16 13:44:41 2013 No.909146

>>909127
He was a little bit too high up for that. Also like somebody said he stepped down not long after.

What really happened was probably something like this:

Silicon Graphics Engineer: If we reduce the amount of video memory we embed on the GPU, we can save a lot of money, but it will make the machine very difficult to develop for. Developers will be sweating hard in order to carefully mange the RAM!

Yamauchi: Perfect.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 13:44:41 2013 No.909150 File: 48 KB, 620x400, hokutonops1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Never got a US release but Fist of the North Star on PS1 was one of the best-looking games from that gen.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 13:45:41 2013 No.909152 >>909138 That simply isn't true. Nothing like CC's battles is possible on the N64. The textures are simply too good.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 13:46:41 2013 No.909158 >>909150 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BF_IvMpMAt8

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 14:06:41 2013 No.909209 >>909152 >Nothing like CC's battles is possible on the N64. The textures are simply too good. Errr....not quite. You can make up detailed textures on N64 by clumping lots of little textures together (see: Conker).

Anonymous Tue Jul 16 14:10:41 2013 No.909220
File: 183 KB, 960x540, slightly less corrupted.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>909209

I extracted Joanna's model from Perfect Dark using an emulator, the textures are fucking tiny but there's a lot of them. You should try it some time, it's really interesting to see how the models were constructed. It makes it a fucking pain in the ass to reconstruct the UVs though, since extracting the models basically destroys the texture mapping data.

Anonymous Tue Jul 16 14:13:41 2013 No.909228
File: 78 KB, 1024x768, 1373934175635[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>909220

Can you do the same with character models from RE3, Dino Crisis and other later era PS1 games? I think these character models look so much better than most N64 games.

This one is from google image search.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 14:15:41 2013 No.909232 >>909228 No reason why not, but I didn't do anything fancy. I just downloaded a tool that somebody else made.

Anonymous Tue Jul 16 14:28:41 2013 No.909251

>>909228
> I think these character models look so much better than most N64 games.

Yes, because these are games where the GPU doesn't need to do anything except render the character models - everything else is a 2D background.

In N64 games the entire world is 3D and requires real-time rendering.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 14:32:41 2013 No.909254 File: 618 KB, 1440x1080, PSOGL2_009.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] I like how clean Mega Man Legends can look.

Anonymous Tue Jul 16 14:36:41 2013 No.909259
File: 574 KB, 2560x960, SHAROL.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>909254
That's emulated, though. I can't recall if this is the case on that particular game, but many 3D PS1 games have dithering out the ass, making them look nowhere near that clean. Boot up Silent Hill with a software renderer or with an emulator like Xebra, and compare it to Pete's plugins. You'll see what I mean.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 14:37:41 2013 No.909261 >>909254 >Those misaligned textures on the white building I'm nitpicking, but it really stands out since the characters look so good.

Anonymous Tue Jul 16 14:39:41 2013 No.909269

>>909251
>Yes, because these are games where the GPU doesn't need to do anything except render the character models - everything else is a 2D background.
>In N64 games the entire world is 3D and requires real-time rendering.

Dino Crisis is fully 3D tard. I think there's a couple of rooms that are an exception.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 14:41:41 2013 No.909271 >>909269 >fully >exception That's like saying something is completely flawless, except in this one area, which is completely broken.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 14:44:41 2013 No.909280 >>909259 Thank you. I actually needed a Cheryl screenshot for the Emulation Wiki. It's used to demonstrate some of the problems of PS1 emulation. http://emulation-general.wikia.com/wiki/PlayStation#Emulation_issues:

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 14:45:41 2013 No.909281 >>909259 And on a real system with composite cables and a CRT TV, the dithering would be highly blended. In SH most of it is used for shading.The game looks so much brighter and paler without the dithering.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 14:46:41 2013 No.909282 >>907321 >i find myself enthralled You're remind me of that asshole that is "enlightened by his own intelligence".

Anonymous Tue Jul 16 15:05:41 2013 No.909312

>>909259
I can't really take posts like this seriously because the smoothing you get running the game at PS1's native res on actual hardware on a normal TV cleans up a lot of those issues. I remember when I first bought a VGA adapter for my Dreamcast so I could play Dreamcast games on my computer monitor, I was in shock when I first loaded a game up and could see every imperfection.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 15:22:41 2013 No.909324 >>909312 I'd take imperfection over distortion in most cases, honestly. Especially cable distortion. The only real use of that was to turn dithering into translucency or shading through blurring. And that can be done so much better through shaders.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 15:22:41 2013 No.909325 >>909312 >smoothing You mean blurring due to shitty cables. Regardless, that is what the console's output actually looks like. The high res shot looks absolutely nothing like the PS1's real output.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 15:55:41 2013 No.909358 >>909271 He's saying most areas of the game are fully 3D. Some specific rooms use CG, just like Ocarina of Time has some CG environments even though it's mostly fully 3D.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 15:57:41 2013 No.909361 >>909358 Mostly fully is a contradiction of itself, which was being pointed out. If there's an exception to something, it's not fully that.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 16:07:41 2013 No.909376 File: 51 KB, 480x359, dinocrisis_1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>909361 If a scene is fully 3D it's fully 3D.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 16:17:41 2013 No.909387 >>909376 >X game is fully 3D >Most scenes are fully 3D There's a distinct difference. Either way, the game is not fully 3D.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 16:43:41 2013 No.909426 >>905918 No.

Anonymous Tue Jul 16 16:55:41 2013 No.909449
File: 7 KB, 689x462, n64utilities.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>909029
I don't think so, it can only be used for screen shots. It halts the system and takes a few seconds to transfer one frame. You can also make your own ROM dumps for archival, but kind of pointless since every game is already on the internet.

Anonymous Tue Jul 16 17:24:41 2013 No.909517

>>908931
Do N64 games really use anti-aliasing or does it only appear to on a TV because of something on the blurry output? AA is traditionally very computationally expensive and I doubt the 93Mhz/62Mhz CPU/GPU on an N64 could handle AA, since it wasn't even out in PC's until 2000 on the Voodoo5.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 17:28:41 2013 No.909531 >>909517 The output was simply blurred, which gives an effect similar to AA. I'm pretty sure it was an FXAA of sorts. Definitely post processing regardless.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 17:55:41 2013 No.909623 >>909531 Well, I guess I can see it working ok on TVs with shitty composite cables, since it was gonna look blurred anyway, but on emulation? Fuck that shit. Gimme the dithering all day erryday.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 18:06:41 2013 No.909668 File: 44 KB, 800x520, Composite_rca_cables.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>909029 You mean hacking the hardware to use VGA as video output instead of RCA?

Anonymous Tue Jul 16 18:07:41 2013 No.909673

>>909108
>Texture filtering is there to LITERALLY cover up the very small texture size. It works somewhat - filtering can aesthetically improve how detailed textures appear through computational prediction, but it's not a magic bullet (looks blurry close up). Additionally, texture filtering also hits the GPU fill rate.
You are still confusing filtering of 2D spritework in NES and SNES era with modern filtering of textures to create effects.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 18:11:41 2013 No.909686 >>909517 What if you assume you can do some very simple edge AA when you render? And its a fast fixed hardware function? Its not that hard.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 18:19:41 2013 No.909705 >>907219 >>907224 >>906695 all these unfiltered N64 shots are giving me a boner

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 18:28:41 2013 No.909721 >>909668 I think he was referring to bypassing the N64's post-processing effects that blur the shit out of the image in favor of the raw output.

Anonymous Tue Jul 16 19:32:41 2013 No.909840
File: 1.80 MB, 1352x977, n64capture.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Here's some screen shots running on a real N64 using S-Video connected to a capture card. It looks like it has anti-aliasing on some edges but not others? It's hard to tell with the blurriness.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 19:34:41 2013 No.909842 File: 1.60 MB, 1306x973, n64capture2.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Goldeneye. Cradle is blurry as shit.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 19:39:41 2013 No.909857 File: 2.54 MB, 1024x1984, n64.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] heres animal crossing on the n64 and gamecube dont know if it means much since i used an emulator for the screenshots

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 22:57:41 2013 No.910321 >>909840 >>909842 Now THAT is what an N64 really looks like. First accurate screen shots in this whole Nintendofest of a thread.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 23:04:41 2013 No.910339 >>910321 see >>907279 Compare the right screenshot to the Star Fox 64 shots in >>909840. They're almost identical.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 23:13:41 2013 No.910362 >>909840 Keep in mind those screenshots look like they've been upscaled from their native 320x240 to around 640x480 or so, which makes them look more jaggy.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 23:15:41 2013 No.910367 >>909840 >>909842 Psh, I can tell you're not even playing them properly. There's a complete lack of scanlines and no filters. Do you even know what the developers intended?

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 23:18:41 2013 No.910378 File: 195 KB, 640x479, world driver championship.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>910367 Oh boy, here we go!

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 23:44:41 2013 No.910439 >>910378 Here's a fun fact. LCD TVS DON'T HAVE SCANLINES. And only elitists play N64 games on a CRT. Okay, so I'm exaggerating, but my point stands. 3D graphics aren't reliant on "what the devs intended" the way 2D graphics are.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 23:47:41 2013 No.910451 >>909842 I'd like to see Turok 3 and Perfect Dark captured properly, as well as some high quality captures of Indiana Jones.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 23:50:41 2013 No.910457 >>910439 It was a joke.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 23:53:41 2013 No.910470 >>905981 Saturn's Panzer Dragoon games had pretty sweet 3D. I would put it up against the best N64 titles.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 23:55:41 2013 No.910476 >>910439 >>910457 I know, dude. I was joking, too. Those scanlines are laughably thick. But some people are probably salivating over them. Honestly, my PAL TV never had noticable scanlines with N64 games.

>>	Anonymous Tue Jul 16 23:55:41 2013 No.910479 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foZUcPQAMvg The best 5th gen grafix Nintendon't

Anonymous Tue Jul 16 23:58:41 2013 No.910492

>>910470
The 3D on Panzer Dragoon was decent enough. However, it didn't have a lot of 3D. The draw distance was short, and the game used a lot of sprites. Also, the game doesn't actually have any sort of realtime lighting that I can see - I was just watching YT videos of the game.

Anonymous Wed Jul 17 00:00:41 2013 No.910497

>>910362
Well I tried capturing at 320x240 and but 640x480 showed slightly more detail, even though the source inside the N64 is only 320x240. My guess is, when the N64 encodes the 480i S-Video signal, going BACK to 320x240 in the capture card loses some detail.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 17 00:04:41 2013 No.910515 File: 184 KB, 656x560, purrfect dork.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>910451 I don't have a capture card, so here's a shot using that super accurate plugin. This is with hi-res mode enabled.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 17 00:09:41 2013 No.910527 >>910515 z64, I assume? I seem to recall z64 not emulating the framebuffer. Doesn't matter, though, since the framebuffer isn't used that much in multiplayer. Except for, you know, the motion\poison\punch\n-bomb blurring.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 17 00:10:41 2013 No.910534 >>910439 >3D graphics aren't reliant on "what the devs intended" the way 2D graphics are. Neither are and if you really believe that shit you're a faggot.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 17 00:11:41 2013 No.910536 >>910527 >z64, I assume? Nope, SoftGraphic. Much more accurate than z64. Also much slower. Note the VI/s at the bottom. And I'm on an i7.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 17 00:12:41 2013 No.910538 >>910534 2D graphics were often build AROUND scanline\CRT issues, is what I meant.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 17 00:12:41 2013 No.910539 >>910538 >often Try "rarely".

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 17 00:14:41 2013 No.910545 >>910536 Ah, I see. I'll keep that in mind.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 17 00:15:41 2013 No.910547 >>910515 Can you link to that plugin?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 17 00:15:41 2013 No.910549 >>910536 Wait. Nevermind, I found it.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 17 00:16:41 2013 No.910552 >>910547 http://forum.pj64-emu.com/showthread.php?t=3739 I used version 1.3 for that shot, though, since 1.4 doesn't have the N64's accurate fullscreen anti-aliasing and filtering, opting instead for generic Direct3D fullscreen bilinear filtering.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 17 00:17:41 2013 No.910554 >>910552 Also, you guys better be running OC'd Haswells or something. This plugin is seriously demanding.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 17 00:18:41 2013 No.910558 >>910515 >>910536 I was reading this thread, and some people were reporting that the plugin is blurrier than its supposed to be sometimes. http://forum.pj64-emu.com/showthread.php?t=3739 Worth bearing in mind.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 17 00:20:41 2013 No.910563 >>910558 It's only blurry if you enable the "filtering". If you disable it, you get more pixelated, PS1-esque graphics. But the "blurry" look is the accurate one, in so much as that's what's sent to the TV.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 17 00:21:41 2013 No.910565 >>910563 Ah, fair enough.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 17 00:27:41 2013 No.910580 File: 252 KB, 656x555, STAY ON TARGET.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Here's Rogue Squadron, though I'm thinking it's not handling the hi-res quite right.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 17 00:31:41 2013 No.910586 >>910580 >t Hrm... No, that doesn't look quite right. 640x480 should look MUCH crisper than this. Does Indiana Jones boot past the intro sequence on this new plugin?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 17 00:31:41 2013 No.910590 >>910451 >>908519 I would but the only games I have out of those is Majora's Mask.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 17 00:33:41 2013 No.910593 >>910586 Yes, but it's absolutely broken once you get in-game. Might be a core emulation issue, actually, as only on Mupen64Plus have I been able to get the game to look somewhat correct, but there's still issues with level geometry warping all over.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 17 00:35:41 2013 No.910602 >>910593 Indiana Jones had the most extensive microcode rewrite of any N64 game in existence, I believe. That's why emulating it has proven so difficult. Hopefully this new plugin will see progress of some sort.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 17 03:08:41 2013 No.910868 >>910539 Try always or do you think those pixel artist drew everything with rectangular pixels?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 17 03:18:41 2013 No.910884 >>909127 Similar to Sony who made the PS1-3 hard to program for so over time developers would learn to use it better and create more impressive games.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 17 03:32:41 2013 No.910915 >>910884 >made the PS1-3 hard to program for I love the PS2 and all but it has a fuckton of shovelware

Anonymous Wed Jul 17 03:49:41 2013 No.910937

>>910915
>this

>>910884
You're pretty dumb unless you're comparing PS2&3 to Xbox. PS1 was the easiest of the three big 5th gen systems to develop for, which was Sony's intention from the start.

In Generation 8 everything is going to be so easy to develop for that most of developers' energies will be put into tying up the licenses. I don't think it'll work.

Anonymous Wed Jul 17 04:28:41 2013 No.910985
File: 196 KB, 1064x800, dosbox 2013-07-17 03-25-29-31.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>910868
Well, sometimes they did, actually. A lot of old DOS games that ran at 320x200, despite the fact that they were supposed to be shown in 4:3, still have objects that look rectangular or ovaled when you correct their aspect ratio.

Anonymous Wed Jul 17 04:46:41 2013 No.910996

>>910884
The "intentionally hard to program for" argument is BS. It's just a side effect of massive cost cutting. When they intend to sell millions of units, they buy chips and technologies from the lowest cost source. When they're up against a competing console, intentionally stressing the developers would be stupid.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 17 05:33:41 2013 No.911028 >>910996 But it is totally the kind of thing Nintendo would actually claim to have been their intent.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 17 05:34:41 2013 No.911031 >>911028 It's one thing to claim that was the intention years after the fact. It's quite another to actually make that part of your business model.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 17 05:46:41 2013 No.911043 >>911031 Yeah that would be dumb as hell but look at how dumb Sega's business model was in the 90s.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 17 05:58:41 2013 No.911059 >>911043 One could swear their business model was based around fucking over Sega of America as much as humanly possible due to jealousy over the baka gaijins being more adept.

Anonymous Wed Jul 17 06:21:41 2013 No.911079

>>910476
>my PAL TV never had noticable scanlines with N64 games.

this, I never noticed scanlines of any kind.

Although last time I tried to play N64 on an LCD I stopped in disgust because the tv scaling was beyond awful, I'd play on an old TV but just because it looks good, not certainly for scanlines which don't exist anyway

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 17 06:22:41 2013 No.911082 >>910580 how did you get the game to play? Did you use some weird plugin?

Anonymous Wed Jul 17 06:24:41 2013 No.911087

>>910476
>Those scanlines are laughably thick
My CRT monitor's scalines are that thick too. Exact 1:1 with the pixels at 240p resolutions.
The difference is the sheer brightness output on the visible lines. It's enough to cover twice the space.

But of course, they wre "designed" for shitty low end TVs, CRT or otherwise.

Anonymous Wed Jul 17 06:30:41 2013 No.911098
File: 899 KB, 3264x2448, DSC05270.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>911079
There are several factors that go into whether scanlines are noticeable or not:

1. CRT mask type. Shadow masks were used in the vast majority of TVs, with Sony using aperture grilles instead, which tended to be sharper and more defined up until the late 90's/early 2000's, thus showing more noticeable lines.

2. TV size. The bigger the TV, the more likely you are to see scanlines.

3. TV calibration. Poor convergence or focus could often cause scanlines to blend together, thus obscuring the gaps in between.

4. Region. PAL TVs could display more lines per total TV area than NTSC TVs could, so obviously scanlines were closer together on PAL TVs, thus making them less prominent.

So if you had a 14" shadow mask PAL TV that was poorly calibrated, chances are you saw no lines at all. Meanwhile, my 27" Sony NTSC TV displays them quite prominently.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 17 06:33:41 2013 No.911103 >>911098 and why would "poor" calibration be an issue really looks like it actually helps?

Anonymous Wed Jul 17 06:36:41 2013 No.911112

>>911103
It's simple. A properly calibrated display will be sharper and have less issues with convergence. The side effect will be that phospohors will actually stay within their scanlines instead of bleeding towards others. Of course, this means more prominent black lines. That's just how it is. I guess for you, a blurrier, more imperfect picture is more desirable.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 17 06:39:41 2013 No.911123 >>911082 If you really want to play it emulated, I recommend Mupen64Plus with the z64 plugin. It plays it faster and better than Project64 does.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 17 06:42:41 2013 No.911132 >>911123 How does it compare to the PC version? A few years ago I booted up my old win98 voodoo2 PC just to play it

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 17 06:44:41 2013 No.911139 >>911132 Never played the PC version. I've heard it's mostly the same. Honestly, you might be better off playing it that way. Being able to emulate it is more of a novelty than anything. Now, if only we could emulate Rogue Leader.

Anonymous Wed Jul 17 06:48:41 2013 No.911151
File: 47 KB, 320x240, NEC PC-9801FA2（1993年）.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>910985
>they were supposed to be shown in 4:3
Not true. They were often letterboxed instead. I remember that from when I was a kid.
It's also the same with a lot of Japanese computers from around the time. 320x200 and 640x400 were popular.

It really is extremely game dependent though. Games like Popful Mail seems designed to be letterboxed, while games like Lolita Syndrome were clearly designed to be stretched.
http://www.mobygames.com/game/pc88/lolita-syndrome

I'd say developer perspective doesn't matter there, since end users often used both.

Anonymous Wed Jul 17 06:52:41 2013 No.911162
File: 19 KB, 288x192, mischief-13.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>910497
>the source inside the N64 is only 320x240
Hate to break that bubble, but they used just about everything under the sun. There was no standard whatsoever for internal resolution on the N64.
That's probably why Nintendo themselves decided to go with higher resolution for the VC. Because at least 480p makes sense.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 17 06:54:41 2013 No.911168 >>911151 Forgot Popful Mail link. Ah well. http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/popfulmail/popfulmail.htm

Anonymous Wed Jul 17 08:26:41 2013 No.911294

>>910996
At the very least, Nintendo made life difficult for developers they didn't consider worthy of being members of the "Dream Team". In a nutshell, they didn't give them much documentation.

Acclaim was a Dream Team dev. That's why they were allowed to do stuff like run Turok 2 at 640x480. They asked Nintendo to allow high resolution N64 games, showed Nintendo the output, and Nintendo said okay.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 17 08:30:41 2013 No.911301 >>905918 That game really looks like shit. I could swear it comes from a Ps1 if you hadn't said otherwise. N64 graphics were much better imo. Personal preferences I guess

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 17 08:39:41 2013 No.911306 >>911301 Sin & Punishment sacrifices polygon counts so it can have massive numbers of enemies onscreen. Some of the battles are insane. When the game's running, it's pretty clear it's not a PS1 game.

Anonymous Wed Jul 17 08:45:41 2013 No.911315
File: 276 KB, 800x600, Glide64_TSUMI_TO_BATSU_11.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Sin and Punishment is an odd game, visually. It's not amazing, but the game is smooth. Unlike most PS1 rail shooters I've seen, it has far more lighting effects and such.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 17 09:13:41 2013 No.911338 I remember quake 2 looked pretty good back the on ps1

Anonymous Wed Jul 17 09:55:41 2013 No.911375

>>909387
>Implying OP ever specified fully 3D games.
The mention of Dino Crisis was about extracting the character model as well. You sound so desperate trying to get this game removed from the conversation. Dino Crisis' 3D graphics looked pretty good otherwise.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 17 10:04:41 2013 No.911398 >>911375 >Dino Crisis is fully 3D tard It's not "fully" 3D. That's all the point was. Simple as is. The game does look fine and I've nothing against it.

Anonymous Wed Jul 17 10:08:41 2013 No.911407

Dino Crisis 1 is over 90% 3D, and is a worthy contestant, if you ignore the fact the character models jiggle all over the place.

Dino Crisis 2 is 3D characters against 2D backgrounds. This means the models can be far more detailed than normal.

No need to get worked up, guys. The cold fact is that the N64 is far more powerful than the PS1. But there were some bloody fine looking PS1 games - Crash Bandicoot 3 being a prime example.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 17 11:02:41 2013 No.911472 >>911315 >Unlike most PS1 rail shooters Good thing S&P is not a rail shooter then.

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