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/vr/ - Retro Games

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9006849 No.9006849 [Reply] [Original]

How did devs get around this?

>> No.9006856 [DELETED] 

kys

>> No.9006876

>>9006849
The TVs support both, just like PAL50 and PAL60

>> No.9006882

>>9006849
Electronics manufacturers dealt with that, the whole country used NTSC-J.

>> No.9006885

>>9006876
Even in the 80s? What about arcade machines?

>> No.9006893
File: 100 KB, 730x512, hard ass pic.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9006893

>>9006849
someone explain this shit to me NOW. What the fuck even is a hertz.

>> No.9006898

>>9006893
https://sciencing.com/hertz-electricity-5838113.html

>> No.9006902

>>9006893
When I punch your mom in the pussy

>> No.9006909

>>9006849
All TV sets in Japan are 60hz. This image shows different electricity frequencies in power outlets. Most electronics in Japan support 50/60Hz frequencies unless they are really archaic.

>> No.9006914

>>9006893
energy distribution frequency. PAL uses 50hz which is less efficient than 60 but they also use a higher voltage than the US so it kinda balances out. Here's a basic chart

>US
120V, 60Hz
>Europe
220V, 50Hz
>Japan
100V, 60Hz

American electronics generally won't have an issue with Japanese electricity, but it's not enough for European devices without an in-between

>> No.9006923

>>9006914
>PAL uses 50hz which is less efficient than 60 but they also use a higher voltage than the US so it kinda balances out.
The 220/50 is objectively more efficient, it's just also a far greater safety hazard.

>> No.9006927

It's the AC frequency, not the TV encoding.

>> No.9006935

>>9006923
EU plugs are harder to plug utensils into though. You have to use nails to selfdestruct.

>> No.9006942

>>9006914
>>9006898
thanks guys, but why does hertz dictate fps on retro systems? Did PAL devs just not see a reason to adjust it beyond the standard?

>> No.9006959

>>9006942
Because if the electricity is only moving at 50 cycles a second then nothing else can move that faster either with the technology of the time. Here's the thing, when the electric company supplies you with eletricity, they're not actually giving you the electrons that give you power. They're giving you energy to excite and move the electrons that already exist within the cord/outlet/device.

>> No.9006962

>>9006942
Ancient vacuum tube TVs had their refresh rate tied to outlet's frequency. This was fixed by solid state TVs. Color television standards, used by consoles, were developed in 50-60s when tube TVs were still relevant and thus 50hz television stayed in Europe until the digital broadcast era.

>> No.9006980

People living in PAL-land, was it noticeable that handhelds ran at 60fps but consoles ran at 50?

>> No.9007014

>>9006962
yeah, I figured it had to do with the TVs. More interestingly, you sent me down a wierd rabbit hole of post-WWII era color TV standardization. Crazy to think that US occupation in Japan is why we can play their retro games on our systems.

>> No.9007021

>>9006942
It's not frames, it's refresh rate.

>> No.9007026

>>9006980
No one fucking noticed.

>> No.9007028

>>9006935
You serious?

I was born in Canada and moved to Germany and the plugs are just better, it's called fitting firmly, it's still easy to plug in and out.

>> No.9007032

>>9007014
No shit, this is why Hong Kong used PAL systems.

>> No.9007037

>>9006962
How could they accept broadcasts then? If they run at the line frequency, how could they sync up with broadcast frequency? There were no buffers or things.

>> No.9007042

>>9007037
Aerials...

>> No.9007043

>>9007014
>Crazy to think that US occupation in Japan is why we can play their retro games on our systems.
Doesn't matter, almost all PAL TVs made after the early 90's accept NTSC 60Hz signals. It's mostly the other way around that doesn't work, PALtards support almost everything.

>> No.9007045

>>9006980
Going back and playing PAL Tekken 2 and 3 after trying it at the proper speed is painful. Obviously we didn't really know any better at the time but the difference is fairly obvious having played both.

>> No.9007047

>>9007028
I meant kids putting forks into US sockets and killing themselves by accident.

>> No.9007048

>>9007042
And? If you synced to line frequency and got another frequency from your aerial, unless they were exactly 1:1 (which they weren't), you'd have a picture displaying between frames or showing two half's of one frame at once, etc

>> No.9007051

>>9006980
Nobody noticed. At least with good ports you got the benefit of the additional resolution on some consoles.
Even when you didn't, the problem was mostly shit ports that were slowed down instead of fixed for 50Hz.

>> No.9007053

>>9006885
Yes, see >>9006909 and >>9006962

>> No.9007123

>>9006885
Arcade machines don't obey those standards at all. Mortal Kombat's display is 55hz, Moon Patrol is 57hz, Neo Geo MVS is 59hz, Tetris: The Grand Master 2 is 61hz, Breakout is 63hz, etc. Arcades use dedicated monitors, not TVs recieving NTSC/PAL color TV signals.

>> No.9007127

>>9007123
Arcades used RGB* and not PAL/NTSC
Same reason RGB works on any RGB enabled set, doesn't matter if it's 50 or 60 Hz

>> No.9007168

>>9006849
outsourcing their electrical work to the fucking french and prussians.

>> No.9007352

>>9006856
This

>> No.9007364

>>9006893
What's the context of this pic? Did he get to meet a Sega developer after winning that contest?

>> No.9007505

>>9006914
>American electronics generally won't have an issue with Japanese electricity
True, but don't try Japanese electronics with American electricity

>> No.9007509

>>9006902
This guy understands.

>> No.9007528

>>9006914
US uses 240V, but most home outlets are wired for 120.

>> No.9007532

>>9007528
By that logic, Europe uses 440V, most home outlets are just wired for 220V.

>> No.9007538

>>9007528
Almost all non-industrial (and some -enterprise) appliances use 120V though

>> No.9007596

>>9007505
I have a Japanese Saturn and I have been using plugged directly into my Canadian wall socket for years with no issue.

>> No.9007602

>>9007596
Of course you’re from canada.

Nigger

>> No.9007606

>>9007043
This is true, Euro tvs handle NTSC, PAL, 50/60Hz, RF, composite, RGB (even the cheap ones). Good luck getting your hands on proper NTSC consoles and games though. A few years ago, you were able to import then from Japan if their value was low enough, but they decided to tax the shit out of imports because buying fun things le bad, so now you can't get them unless you want customs to fuck you in the ass with outrageously high VAT and handling fees and paperwork.

>> No.9007617

>>9007602
I'm actually quite white. But I do love black people.

>> No.9007621
File: 293 KB, 412x263, 3-phase_flow.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9007621

>>9007532
European households have 400V.
Europe uses three-phase power which splits 400V to 230V. United States uses split-phase power which splits 240V to 120V.

>> No.9007625

>>9007606
I just order from US. It's pretty cheap.
Plus I've modded the ones that are easy to convert between PAL and NTSC.

>> No.9007632

>>9007621
The house I live in and my dad build sure does, I use 400V electrical saw benches and other tools sometimes. Even once had a Minicomputer that needed, just for fun, played around with it in the garage.

>> No.9007635

>>9007505
I ran a Japanese Nintendo 64 in Europe using a Soviet-made power transformer outputing 127V/50Hz. Had no issues, but I had switched to a European PSU anyway.

>> No.9007636

>>9007606
>>9007625
This plus flash cart, no offence to collectors, I just don't see the point in paying for physical games, even if they costed the same

>> No.9007705

>>9006959
This is like magic, but more complimacated.

>> No.9007708

>>9007705
Honestly, other way around, it's not that hard to wrap your head around the basics.

>> No.9007715

>>9007602
that's not very nice, bud
ya wanna talk aboot it?

>> No.9007824

>>9007708
I'm still confused...

>> No.9007843

>>9006893
1Hz = s^-1 (where 's' is seconds). Another way to say 60Hz is to say, 60 times per second. 50Hz is 50 times per second. The framerates of old consoles were tied to this (but it was 60 fields per second, not full frames, it was interlaced and only every second scan line updates per Hz). That's why PAL was 50fps, but they just slowed down the system to output the same 60 frames over 1.2 seconds. Yes, PAL games run slower than NTSC, even the music is slower.

>> No.9007847

>>9007602
cry about it :)

>> No.9007873

>>9007505
It depends. As always, look at the device itself/the powerbrick, but a lot of non polarized electronics (especially with an external power brick, and past 2000) that released in multiple regions will run just fine because it's easier to just design one power source that can handle both voltages than having two production lines and part numbers when the voltages are so close.

>> No.9007957

>>9007047
That is a feature, survival of the fittest.

>> No.9007998

>>9007705
It's literally Physics 110 material, entry-level stuff.

>> No.9008010

>>9007843
>Yes, PAL games run slower than NTSC, even the music is slower.
Yeah. For reference, here's Tim Follin's Solstice opening in the NTSC version at 60hz
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_gObHt1uZA
And here it is in the PAL version at 50hz
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNpJ12alVRg

Though as someone says in the comments of the PAL video, Follin intentionally made his songs a little slower than normal at 50 so that they wouldn't be too fast at 60 and if a 55hz version existed, that would be the closest thing to what he was actually going for.

>> No.9008025

>>9007028
In current year they have mechanisms to make NEMA 5-15 both safer, reliable and longer lasting. However, the price difference is 70¢ and $7. So guess which is more popular? Yep, the ones that should to be replaced after a thousand or so contact cycles. Also never use those safety plastic caps, they just destroy your outlets wether they are cheap or high quality. It gets old explaining this but it will never end.

>t. electrician

>> No.9008029

>>9007705
the american education system at work folks

>> No.9008031

>>9008025
>Also never use those safety plastic caps, they just destroy your outlets wether they are cheap or high quality.
Plus they're a pain in the ass to take off.

>> No.9008054

>>9006849
They were educated adults so understood they could "get around" it by simply doing nothing as it was irrelevant.

>> No.9008058

>>9006849
Get around what? The same TVs work in East and West Japan

>> No.9008091

>have a Dendy as a kid
>TV is SECAM or some shit
What abominations did I play? If I recall correctly it was some weird mixture of 50 hz and 60 hz

>> No.9008095

>>9006893
Essentially it's the frequency of the electricity used on the power grid

>> No.9008107

>>9006849
get around what?
Consoles use DC power, not AC

>> No.9008112

>>9008107
It's TVs that were the problem CRT. NTSC and PAL used 60Hz and 50Hz refresh rates respectively.

>> No.9008114

>>9008112
That doesn't have to do with the power

>> No.9008182

>>9008114
Yes, it does. PAL was developed for use in countries with 50Hz AC. NTSC was used in countries with 60Hz AC. It's not a coincidence. The AC frequency is used to control the sweep timing of the Cathode Ray inside the Cathode Ray Tube. NTSC was developed in the 1940s, they didn't do fancy stuff like use voltage transformers, the TV sets just ran off the AC mains.

>> No.9008212

>>9006959
>nothing else can move that faster either with the technology of the time
Game consoles used DC power. The framerate was chosen to match the TVs. Also modern TVs use DC and manage higher refresh rates than the AC frequency.

>> No.9008258

>>9008212
>Game consoles used DC power. The framerate was chosen to match the TVs.
Yes but I was talking about the tv.
>Also modern TVs use DC and manage higher refresh rates than the AC frequency.
Well yeah, because modern tvs also don't use tubes that are tied to the outlet's frequency.

>> No.9008330
File: 105 KB, 1000x692, s-l1000.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9008330

>>9008182
By the time of game consoles this shouldn't have been an issue

>> No.9008375

>>9006893
When you get wounded you say that hertz

>> No.9008383

>>9008330
It wasn't. Hence why Japanese sets don't have a problem, with 50 or 60 Hz.
European PAL sets don't have a problem with displaying 60Hz NTSC either.

Somehow it's just US sets that got the short stick.

>> No.9008427

>>9008182
This bait is extremely low quality

>> No.9008461

>>9008383
Most TVs in Australia couldn't do 60Hz until the mid to late 90s.

>> No.9008462

>>9008461
yes they could, you just didn't know it

>> No.9008512

>>9008461
I have a consumer black Trinitron set from 1994 and it does NTSC 60Hz and PAL60 fine, even though it's PAL.

>> No.9008514

>>9008383
>European PAL sets don't have a problem with displaying 60Hz NTSC either.

*Most

It's never a given that a random TV set will take a foreign input. Old or cheap models often don't have the extra circuitry to convert the signal, and you'll get a black and white image.

>> No.9008549

>>9008514
If I'm not mistaken most 90s PAL TVs already supported NTSC AV so you could use consoles, VCR and all that other stuff with them. And even nowadays some Euro TVs still have component and SCART sockets for you to use retro stuff

>> No.9008575

>>9008549
Yeah, most do and have since the 90's. It's not a guarantee tho, but those 5€ Sony sets from 25 years ago you see floating around on your sales sites probably will work fine for it.

>And even nowadays some Euro TVs still have component and SCART sockets for you to use retro stuff
It's crazy, you can still buy a modern 60 inch OLED panel and it has SCART on the back.
Everything from composite, s-video, component to RGB.

>> No.9008587

>>9008575
>It's crazy, you can still buy a modern 60 inch OLED panel and it has SCART on the back.
Yeah shit's insane, I honestly don't understand why they still do this but I want it to stay this way forever

>> No.9008594

>>9007364
Chris and Bob used to attend the roof koreans church for a while

>> No.9008651

>>9006980
Not really. Both the gameboy and the game gear had such blurry screens that it was rather difficult to discern the framerate. There was just an unspecific amount of motion.
For consoles, most people only ever saw and played the 50Hz version, we didn't know it was "wrong." And owing to the SNES being the most popular and the most jrpg heavy console, between all the non-action games and actual PAL optimised games we had fun regardless.
And for things like SF2 where you could at the time easily drop into an arcade and see the real deal, yes, it was obvious the SNES version was slower, but back then there was no such thing as "arcade perfect." You compromised heavily to play a game at home and it having lower quality graphics, different music and slower gameplay was just what you had to put up with.
When the PS2/DC/Xbox/GC came about, PAL60 was established and games were designed for variable framerates so even if you couldn't do 60Hz, the game at least wasn't "slow."
tl;dr, we didn't know any better and it wasn't as bad as all that, really.

>> No.9008659

>>9007037
Early TVs had a vertical hold knob which would let you adjust for the skew. More modern TVs would do it automatically.
The early TVs didn't technically have to sync to the line frequency, it was done to minimise rolling interference and make the electronics simpler. But costs came down and down and down until the point that none of the old reasons mattered anymore, but 50Hz was still THE STANDARD and no one had the balls to change.

>> No.9008668

>>9008587
It was required by law until a few years ago, now it just stuck around.

>> No.9008670

>>9008659
How did the adjust work? I'm just confused, if you refresh the screen 50 or 60 times a second from the line frequency but you get a signal with interlaced pictures that comes 50 or 60 times a second from the broadcaster and those aren't in sync, what makes them sync up? It's not like there's a buffer to save the frame to delay it being displayed?

>> No.9008673

>>9008575
>>9008587

Those old connectors don't add much to the manufacturing cost, and there are literally milllions upon millions of people who have old things they they might want to connect - DVD sales are still bigger than Bluray, because Bluray never took off with boomers, and everyone under 40 streams their movies instead of owning them on discs, so there's literally millions of old DVD players still in use everywhere.

Then you've got security cameras that could be 10, 20, 30 years old. Tons of people have probably still got old family recordings on VCR that they haven't ever bothered to convert to digital. Lots of old lab equipment is still in use all over the world, things like that.

Scart is a comically bulky connector, but it's... actually really good. I pity those outside europe who have jump through hoops for clean rgb output, whilst we can just plug straight into Scart like we have done since the 80's.

>> No.9008676

>>9008673
You also hear a lot of bad about SCART since the connector is flimsy, but that's not even true if you have proper cables with proper connectors, people just bought the cheapest shit.

>> No.9008686

>>9008670
The short answer is: the tube is NOT synchronised the the line frequency, it's only "in theory."
The long answer is back when it mattered the national grid in the UK was all a perfect 50Hz. It was so perfect clock radios could count the cycles to maintain spectacularly accurate time. So when you were picking up broadcasts from the BBC and ITV transmission towers the programs were being recorded with 50Hz clocks, encoded with the same clock, broadcast with the same clock and received with the same clock. When you turned the vertical hold you were not "delaying" the signal, you were changing WHEN the TV would start its top-of-scan interval. You synchronised the TV to the broadcast and it was only ever microseconds out.
When the modern grid did away with 50Hz sync, by this point TVs were all full of modern electronics that would process the incoming signal and figure out what to do about it in various fancy ways.

>> No.9008798

>>9008461
Australia is a tech desert and people were still regularly using the term "colour TV" well into the 90's

>> No.9008871

>>9008798
No they fucking didn’t

>> No.9008882

>>9008670
Broadcasts are 24fps on 50hz and 29fps on 60hz I’m pretty sure

>> No.9008893

>>9008686
I mean it’s more to do with everything being digital instead of analog now

>> No.9008910

>>9008686
>When you turned the vertical hold you were not "delaying" the signal, you were changing WHEN the TV would start its top-of-scan interval. You synchronised the TV to the broadcast and it was only ever microseconds out.
That makes sense now, like a simple capacitive buffer or something to adjust the line frequency a little so it syncs up with the broadcast one

>> No.9008994

>>9008882
When broadcasts were still analog it was all 50 PAL and 59.94 NTSC, but interlaced. This caused and causes much confusion to this day from people who got hung up on the fact that it took a two sets of fields to display a 525/480 line image. But lots of programs, especially live broadcasts, soap operas, etc. were recorded and played back at full frame rate with 50/59.94 unique frames, even if the "half" of the frame you were receiving alternated by 1 vertical line each frame. It was less jank in practice than it sounds. There were other standards if you go back further, but let's not.
When things moved to digital it was a total clusterfuck where people would erroneously "de-interlace" content down to 25p/29.97p causing lots of nasty combing, doubling or blur artefacts. Worse, people would handbrake shit all the time with pulldown detection on and so you'd get 24p avi files that weren't from 24p sources leading to nasty frame pacing.
Thank fuck it's been years since interlaced was common so we just have 1080p/4K in exact progressive frames with actual framerates encoded instead of pulldown or speed hacks.

>> No.9009032

So you guys admit that PAL TVs are just better? NTSC TVs almost always support NTSC only but the PAL ones can do everything

>> No.9009037

>>9009032
Don't forget RGB input on pretty much every consumer set that has SCART.

>> No.9009042

>>9008871
They did. Sucks you were still in your dads ball sack at the time so weren't aware. As a corollary, sucks you're a zoomer so can't just google and fact check shit in 30 seconds like a human.

>> No.9009127

>>9009037
I don't read posts that clearly contain no spoilers yet contain a spoiler tag anyway.

>> No.9009315

>>9006980
Knowledge has soured retro gaming for me in the PAL land. You just knew something was off.
https://youtu.be/DW-XsGN8oKc

>> No.9009320

>>9009127
But you did.

>> No.9009464

It's great how the information on how something works can be readily available and you'll still get people acting like "but how did it work?".

>> No.9009530

>>9009464
>people
Not a lot of those around these parts

>> No.9009545

>>9006942
Because retro consoles don't have framebuffers.

>> No.9009552

How does timing in general work on retro consoles? What do games use to determine the passage of time?

>> No.9009580

>>9007505
>True, but don't try Japanese electronics with American electricity

nah, any power supply can handle +/- 10%, at worst they just emit more heat. Also, they don't want to manufacture another completely different power supply just for a 10V difference, so they make the existing supplies capable of handling both japanese and american voltages.

japanese power supplies are usually rated like 70-130V for that reason.

>> No.9009598

>>9009580
Just like most European shit will work from 210 - 250 V

>> No.9009807

>>9009545
You've got to be a special kind of stupid to pack so much wrong and stupid into only six words.

>> No.9009860

>>9009807
Post proof of the opposite, show me NES framebuffer

>> No.9009923

>>9009042
Mate I guarantee I’m older than you, either you were talking to your grandparents or you were living with idiots

>> No.9010110

>>9009860
>i made a ridiculous sweeping claim about retro consoles so you are required to prove me wrong using the single system of my choice.
lmao. You need to fuck right of back to tiktok little zoomer.

>> No.9010152
File: 45 KB, 440x318, 3454581387_a677f0b64f.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9010152

>>9006959
>Because if the electricity is only moving at 50 cycles a second then nothing else can move that faster either with the technology of the time.

>> No.9010164

>>9008512
>Most TVs in Australia couldn't do 60Hz until the mid to late 90s.
>I have a consumer black Trinitron set from 1994
>...it does NTSC 60Hz and PAL60 fine
You're amazing.

>> No.9010186

>>9010110
You're wrong too, it has nothing to do with having a framebuffer or not. Adding one would be a way to move between 50 and 60Hz, but that's not the same thing.

>> No.9010193

>>9007621
Is that why electric stoves don't work in America?

>> No.9010432

>>9010193
Pretty much. If you’re willing to do some hacking and don’t give a fuck about likely starting a fire you can hack 240v in America if you’ve got two outlets on two different phase circuits nearby and run a kettle or whatever off of that. It’s an unbelievably bad idea but you can.

>> No.9010489

>>9008512
I think 1994 was in the mid 90s, not sure though.

>> No.9010503

>>9006893
frequency. n/second. it's not limited to any particular thing, anything that has a frequency can be measured with hertz. for displays it means how many times the display is refreshed per second.

>> No.9011091

>>9010186
>You're wrong too
About what?

>> No.9011297

What is the reason why many PAL games didn't have a 60Hz mode in the naughts, when most TV's supported both 50 and 60Hz? Game Size?
I'm still pissed about FF10 looking like shit.

>> No.9011941
File: 6 KB, 225x225, Too_Legit.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9011941

>>9009923
>Mate I guarantee I’m older than you
But of course you do. You can larp as whatever age you want here. I could tell you I'm 100 and you'd be 101. You're so old your arthritis prevents you from hopping on google to find some old advertisements where they're regularly called colour TVs. It's totally not because you're a zoomie and zoomies can't into google.

>> No.9012207

>>9009580
In my home, I would not run any 30-year-old electronics that are only labeled for 100v, because I typically get 122v from the wall.

>> No.9012225
File: 1001 KB, 1179x744, Untitled.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9012225

>>9011297
Same reason you could order a 75-to-300 ohm balun from the back of a Super Nintendo manual.

>> No.9012309

>>9011297
On later consoles you had the option to run at 50Hz or 60Hz for lots of games, like PS2, Xbox, etc.
This didn't make sense on consoles that were hard-wired to be either 50Hz or 60Hz.

Nothing to do with game size.

>> No.9012835

>>9012309
Playstation wasn't hard-wired to be 50hz in Europe, NTSC imports and burned games play at proper speed.

>> No.9012840

>>9012835
Yep but you'd need a modded console to get rid of region locking.

>> No.9013028

>>9012835
I’m not sure it’s 100% the proper speed
You need a DFO to get 100% accurate speed

>> No.9013059

>>9012840
Not really, there are many guides on Youtube that show you how you can play games from other regions just by swapping the disc a couple of times during start up, thought it will wear out the motor in the long run. I recommend just doing it once so you can run a disc that has FreePSXBoot installation on it and installing it on a memory card, then you never need to bother with disc swapping again.
>>9013028
I don't see why it wouldn't be, the software is the deciding factor, not the hardware. I have played PAL and NTSC versions of the same game on my console and the NTSC version plays faster like it should. If you mean that it's not 100% the same speed as NTSC, I can't tell you, but it seems right to me.