/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.8967809]

was it even necessary to include prompts telling you to hold Reset in? my understanding is only some early NES cartridge PCBs with the battery save from 1987 had issues with the save game getting corrupted and it was quickly fixed by adding resistors to the PCB to prevent spurious signals from reaching the save RAM. it wouldn't have been an issue anymore by the time the Dragon Quest games were localized in the West.

[Anonymous No.8967845]

I don't know, but I'd like to know as well

[Anonymous No.8967849]

Though either way, telling the player to do something rather than adding something extra on the cart is definitely the cheaper solution

[Anonymous No.8967865]

>>8967809
better safe than sorry.

[Anonymous No.8967886]

>>8967809
>it wouldn't have been an issue anymore by the time the Dragon Quest games were localized in the West
Would it have been an issue on the original Famicom releases? If so, do you really think they would change the game code to remove this bit? It says REST button ffs, what makes you think they're going the extra mile for the localization? This is all regardless of whether the US versions would have a problem.

[Anonymous No.8967898]

>>8967886
DQ1 and DQ2 didn't have battery saving on their original Famicom releases, only passwords

[Anonymous No.8967908]

Kirby's Adventure saves automatically and doesn't even prompt you. I've never lost a save game on that by not holding in Reset.

[Anonymous No.8968051]

>>8967898
>DQ1 and DQ2 didn't have battery saving on their original Famicom releases
Oh really? I dunno then, maybe the carts weren't secure, or maybe they weren't totally sure.
>only passwords
Oh wow, looking at it now. Writing and re-entering a 20-character password must have sucked dick.

[Anonymous No.8968058]

>>8967908
It was one of the last NES games. Games undoubtedly didn't have this issue by then.

[Anonymous No.8968061]

>>8967809
its to keep children from hammering the power button like mongoloids and causing fuckups

[Anonymous No.8968068]

You could also play it safe but doing back ups of your save on the other slots (there were almost always at least two save slots) as it's usually only the first slot that would get screwed

[Anonymous No.8968101]

this was an issue originally because the NES didn't have a way to disable the write lines on the cartridge slot and there was a risk that the CPU could send garbage when powered off and overwrite the save RAM. adding resistors to cartridge PCBs prevented this from happening. it was only early Revision 1 MMC1 carts from '87 that had this issue before they fixed it. on later consoles the write lines can just be disabled so it wasn't a problem anymore.

[Anonymous No.8968358]

>>8968101
>adding resistors to cartridge PCBs prevented this from happening.
>it was only early Revision 1 MMC1 carts from '87 that had this issue before they fixed it.
The Bard's Tale from 1991 is an MMC1 cart that has the exact same PCB and components as 1987's Legend of Zelda.
SNROM-04 to 06 are the initial 1987 design with 5 resistors, 2 caps, and 2 diodes.(Three of the resistors are required if using battery backed SRAM, otherwise they are unpopulated)
SAROM-02 from 1989 still has the same amount of components.
SKROM-02, 04, and 06 are all marked 1987 and are the same except 02, which only has one cap.
The SOROM-01 and 02(1989) used in Romance of the Three Kingdoms and Genghis Khan had more resistors on-board, but they also had three RAM chips to deal with too.
The 1991 marked SUROM-01 was used in Dragon Warrior 3, only to be replaced with identical 1989 marked SUROM-02 boards for Dragon Warrior 4, had the same 5 resistors, 2 caps, and 2 diodes most of the MMC1 carts had.
I dunno where the hell this rumor came from, or what e-celeb is spewing this shit, but resistors on the cart was not the fix. The MMC3 was the fix. You could tell it to block all writes to the PRG RAM whenever you weren't trying to specifically write to the PRG RAM. All MMC1 games are still vulnerable.

[Anonymous No.8968387]

>>8968358
what is curious is the back of the Kirby's Adventure cart still has the warning to hold Reset down although it's MMC3 and should not need it

[Anonymous No.8968403]

>>8968387
Nintendo probably had one standard shell for battery save games and couldn't be bothered to print a different label especially because there weren't very many MMC3 games with a battery save, the vast majority of those were MMC1.

[Anonymous No.8968410]

>>8968387
Just because the feature was there didn't mean a dev was actually going to use it. They included that info on every battery backed game to cover themselves. Games were tested to be playable to completion and "bug-free", not if they used the MMC3's RAM protection feature. If they did, great. If not, tough luck buddy, we told you to hold down Reset.
Plus devs were still using the MMC1 after the MMC3 was released, so it was cheaper to just print one back label rather than two just to remove a warning that wouldn't harm the cart or console if followed.

[Anonymous No.8968412]

I have an Everdrive but I still prefer to use my actual DW1 cart because the ROM on the Everdrive has graphics glitches. Yes of course I hold Reset down when I turn it off.

[Anonymous No.8968415]

>>8968412
That's weird, DW1 shouldn't have anything non compatible with the Everdrive. Try another ROM

You still need to press reset with an everdrive anyway to back up the save before turning the console off though

[Anonymous No.8968418]

>>8967886
Famicom releases had passwords no?

[Anonymous No.8968437]

>>8968387
That's a weird looking label, pretty sure they all looked like picrel?

[Anonymous No.8968438]

>>8968415
No it's a problem with corrupted sprites that got fixed on more recent N8s by adding resistors to the PCB. These ensure the signal lines to the PPU are at 0V when not being written to and prevents the OAM table from getting corrupted. Most games don't have corrupted sprites but I'm aware at least that DW1 and Chubby Cherub do. This was also an issue on at least one FDS revision and a modification to the PCB in the RAM adaptor fixed it. Normal cartridges don't have corrupted sprites due to the shorter circuit path in them, but Everdrives and the FDS RAM cart have a longer circuit path and develop signal attenuation.

[Anonymous No.8968449]

>>8968437
late labels have more text.

[Anonymous No.8968459]

>>8968415
I don't think you ever needed to reset a real Everdrive to save, only some shitty Chinese flash carts.

[Anonymous No.8968464]

>>8968459
I have a Famicom Everdrive N8, by KRI-KZ, and saves need to be manually dumped into a seperate file after playing; and also manually loaded before playing

[Anonymous No.8968473]

I think it depends on how the OAM copy routine in the game is written. If it uses an odd way of copying the sprites then it could cause glitches. The ROM disassembly for DW1 is online so you can see exactly what it's doing.

[Anonymous No.8968475]

>>8968464
I've never really tried out anything with a save game feature on mine except Kirby's Adventure and that doesn't lose the save if I just turn it off without resetting.

[Anonymous No.8968501]

http://highscore.com/scores/NESFamicom/ChubbyCherub/69511

(not mine, just some photos I found online)

The glitches in this game specifically involve the sprites on the Game Over/Intermission screen--the guy's face next to PART is glitched. I've tried both CC and Q-Taro and the glitch is in both but in a slightly different location.

[Anonymous No.8968508]

>>8968403
>especially because there weren't very many MMC3 games with a battery save, the vast majority of those were MMC1
There were more of them in Japan but I can't name any US ones but Kirby and Crystalis.

[Anonymous No.8968519]

Also I'm surprised at how toasty that DW1 cart gets after about an hour of use. The Everdrive runs a lot cooler.

[Anonymous No.8968521]

>>8968519
If it's hot it's just a proof the game is soulful, it's alive.

[Anonymous No.8968530]

>>8968519
the chips in there are probably oldskool NMOS ones which do run warm. the Everdrive has modern chips that don't get warm at all; any heat dissipation from the cart is more likely caused by the voltage translator used to down-step the 5V from the console to the 2.5V the PCB uses. I believe some NES carts did have CMOS parts in them and ran cooler, but it mostly depended on what was available.

[Anonymous No.8968537]

>>8968530
Yes but it is well known that Everdrives suck more power than a normal NES cart which is why third party PSUs often can't handle them. the original Nintendo PSU has enough juice but some of those Chinese replacement ones only have like 850ma.

[Anonymous No.8968551]

I know SMB3 carts get toasty after a while of use. Some carts don't generate much heat though.

[Anonymous No.8968570]

>>8968537
*laughs in model 1 genesis wall wart*

[Anonymous No.8968583]

>>8968570
yes Mega Drive PSUs are quite handy. they can power a NES or a Famicom or a ZX Spectrum; basically anything that uses 9V center negative.

[Anonymous No.8968602]

>>8968583
I do need to look into the aftermarket power supply I've heard about that runs the Genesis, CD, and 32X out of one brick instead of 3

[Anonymous No.8968623]

>>8968508
It's mostly RPGs that use MMC3 and in Japan a lot of games had third party mappers which may or may not have the ability to disable save RAM but the info for them should be online. I've also never played Crystalis so I don't know if that asks you to hold down Reset or if it autosaves like Kirby.

[Anonymous No.8968749]

>>8968459
>>8968464
>>8968475
I don't know how Everdrives handle MMC3 emulation, whether it does have the register to turn off the write lines or not. There's no such feature in the console itself so it has to be on the cartridge side.

[Anonymous No.8968762]

>>8968749
supposedly you have to reset to save your game but I've never tried a ROM that supports save games other than Kirby's Adventure and that saves fine without requiring a reset. I don't know if it's different for MMC1 games or not.

[Anonymous No.8968896]

As OP said the CPU could spit garbage when powered down. This is a normal thing most ICs do at power off--as the voltage level drops, the chip becomes unstable and can send out garbage signals. Holding the CPU in a reset state would prevent that from happening.

[Anonymous No.8969061]

I've heard you had to reset on N64 flash carts and that had built-in write line disable.

[Anonymous No.8969137]

also fwiw on Famicoms the Reset button only affects the CPU while on NES it also resets the PPU. i think they did this to prevent undesired graphics glitches because on Famicom if you hit Reset you'll see momentary garbage on screen until the init sequence in the game code starts and clears it.

[Anonymous No.8969142]

>>8969137
That's like on C64 where if you had one of those cartridge port reset buttons you'd get garbage characters for about a second or so until it initializes BASIC and clears the screen.

[Anonymous No.8969706]

>>8967809
From memory over discussion on the matter, it was the idea that when you turned the console off, there was a rare but non-zero chance that the processor might attempt to preform an action that would write to a cartridge's memory in such a way to erase a save game. Hold reset puts the CPU in a loop such that any chance of this occurring would basically have no chance of happening.

This video sort of explains it (It's also got other interesting things in it, too): https://youtu.be/TPbroUDHG0s?t=1805

[Anonymous No.8969724]

>>8968403
To be fair, even if it's not required for those games, there's something to be said about getting the player in the habit of doing it every time so they don't forget for games that need it.

[Anonymous No.8969745]

>>8969706
When powered off, the CPU could write garbage over the save RAM. Most ICs need a certain minimum voltage level to maintain stable operation so when you turn the power off, the chip starts behaving erratically as the voltage level drops and it may send out spurious signals. While these signals will most likely go somewhere harmless such as the cartridge ROM, they could potentially go to the save RAM. By keeping the CPU in a reset state as it's powered off, this behavior is prevented.

[Anonymous No.8969768]

>>8968508
FF3 and Doublemoon Densetsu are MMC3 but even in Japan it seemed most carts with a battery save were MMC1.

[Anonymous No.8970181]

>>8969768
Doublemoon Densetsu doesn't have any warning message but for some reasons FF3 does

[Anonymous No.8970193]

>>8970181
Both Fire Emblem games as well and they're MMC3 too

is it just >>8969724 ??

[Anonymous No.8970368]

>>8967809
>my understanding is wrong
Well there's yer problem

[Anonymous No.8970782]

>>8970181
It may disable the write lines while FF3 doesn't (why wouldn't you though? it's like 2 lines of code). But you'd have to disassemble the code to check.

[Anonymous No.8971107]

>>8970782
>disassembling MMC3 games
Nah you don't want to mess with that spaghetti.

[Anonymous No.8971246]

>>8970782
>he can't understand machine code
Might as well emulate

[Anonymous No.8971302]

>>8968051
>Oh wow, looking at it now. Writing and re-entering a 20-character password must have sucked dick.

I never played any Famicom games as a kid but I can nonetheless attest to this. Here for example is NES Godzilla.

[Anonymous No.8971306]

>>8971302
But I'm sure there are many even greater examples.

[Anonymous No.8973015]

>>8971302
But that's the most interesting part of the game

[Anonymous No.8973036]

I never did that but I didn't let go of the power button properly once and it wiped my zelda 2 save

[Anonymous No.8973048]

>>8968051
>Writing and re-entering a 20-character password must have sucked dick.

>be Japanese kid from the early 90's
>school's out, time to rush home to play some DQ2
>throw my school bag in a corner, turn on the Famicom, sit 2 on the floor only a few steps from the TV
>start grinding while eating some Choki Choki
>hear mom coming home from work
>shit arleady wtf where did the time go
>turn off the TV but leave the console on
>take out my homework and start doing it lying on the floor, pretending I've been studying all along
>she doesn't notice, smiles and makes me some tea
>while she's busy doing chores I turn the TV back on at low volume to finish my homework while listening to the overworld theme
>finally I'm done, back to grindan
>1h later, time to enter the next dungeon
>I struggle but make good progress
>Mom makes some okonomiyaki for dinner that I eat while playing in front of the TV
>10pm, dad comes home from work, doesn't notice me, eats some quick dinner and go directly to bed so he can wake up at 4am tomorrow to go to work
>Mom tells me it's time to go bed
>gotta backtrack to the previous save point to get a password, I could kill myself but I'd lose half of my money and I need it to buy a Full Plate Armor
>after 15 mins mom starts to get pissed
>almost there
>make it to the priest 10 mins later, start writing down the password
>only 32 characters to go out of 148
>mom's had enough, she yells and unplugs the Famicom

Sucks to be Japanese

[Anonymous No.8973107]

nothing could suck as much as being so desperate for attention you larp all that shit

[Anonymous No.8973867]

>>8973107
baka

[Anonymous No.8975252]

I never hold the reset button while turning the power off.

[Anonymous No.8975262]

>>8971302
>>8971306
The Magic of Scheherazade's passwords were so brutal that the developers encoded the world/chapter you were on as the first two characters, if you got your password wrong 5 times, it would throw you a bone and just read those bytes and let you into that world anyway with some basic equipment fitting for that stage of the game.

[Anonymous No.8975752]

>>8973867
ywnb

[Anonymous No.8976717]

>>8975752
Th-this unfounded negativity is something I can't forgive. If I work hard together with my friends then I someday will be