>Doom is 2D except its not

File: 49 KB, 480x270, apps.55563.14303655336501012.2beb08d9-395e-453b-b5e3-0d4ac24d9d15.f9a0e430-b546-45f8-85f1-1d2b90bb84d5.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Anonymous Fri May 20 18:53:56 2022 No.8928079 [Reply] [Original]

>Doom is 2D
except its not

>>	Anonymous Fri May 20 18:55:33 2022 No.8928084 it's 2.5d

>>	Anonymous Fri May 20 18:56:08 2022 No.8928086 >>8928079 ok good for you

>>	Anonymous Fri May 20 18:57:59 2022 No.8928094 How does Doom create the illusion of 3D, then?

>>	Anonymous Fri May 20 19:00:23 2022 No.8928103 >>8928079 This is more of a philosophical question than a video game one.

Anonymous Fri May 20 19:15:31 2022 No.8928131
File: 41 KB, 183x320, 57717c6.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>8928079
>Can move left
>Can move right
>Can move up
>Can move down
>Can move forward
>Can move backwards
Whoever says this game isn't 3D is retarded. Cope, seethe, dilate, touch grass, in that order.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 20 19:21:43 2022 No.8928141 >world has volume >player, monsters, projectiles, and other objects can all move through this world >everything has a defined height, width, and mass >all three axes are present Looks 3D to me bro.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 20 20:04:33 2022 No.8928275 Saying Doom is real 3D is like saying trannies are real women

>>	Anonymous Fri May 20 20:06:03 2022 No.8928282 >>8928275 speaking from experience tranny chaser?

>>	Anonymous Fri May 20 20:08:03 2022 No.8928289 File: 23 KB, 648x409, arcade-outrun-screenshot.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] OutRun is apparently 3D as well.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 20 20:28:45 2022 No.8928337 >>8928282 Don't assume he speaks to anyone outside of 4chan

>>	Anonymous Fri May 20 20:31:26 2022 No.8928349 >>8928094 by creating lines along a 2 plane that have a height variable that players can see

>>	Anonymous Fri May 20 20:39:16 2022 No.8928370 >>8928131 >>8928141 These. It might technically be faked and not real polygons or whatever, but it's literally 3D.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 20 20:39:38 2022 No.8928372 >>8928131 It's 2d and if you say otherwise you open yourself up to accepting everything as 3d. Quake is 3d.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 20 20:43:40 2022 No.8928382 >>8928349 So it’s like Mode 7 in a way? Neat.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 20 20:47:11 2022 No.8928396 Wolfenstein 3D literally has 3D right there in the name. It's less 3D than Doom. Therefore Doom is 3D.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 20 21:12:55 2022 No.8928450 >>8928289 no, this one is https://youtu.be/_xrPwRcL1GY

>>	Anonymous Fri May 20 21:22:04 2022 No.8928478 Great soundtrack. Still fun to play

>>	Anonymous Fri May 20 23:57:30 2022 No.8928906 File: 218 KB, 1024x951, 1605553718832.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>8928131 I won't be quarreling with you anon

>>	Anonymous Sat May 21 00:05:15 2022 No.8928918 >>8928079 It's 3d. it's just not as impressive as a more modern 3d games. >>8928094 Every 3d game leverages an illusion. Your computer monitor is a 2d sheet.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 21 00:12:01 2022 No.8928931 >>8928289 It is 3d. It's just primitive as fuck,

>>	Anonymous Sat May 21 04:34:20 2022 No.8929353 >>8928079 Its raycasting. Its 2d

>>	Anonymous Sat May 21 04:36:55 2022 No.8929359 File: 22 KB, 250x259, 250px-Raycaster_diagram.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>8928079 Its Raycasting, therefore it is 2D

>>	Anonymous Sat May 21 04:38:26 2022 No.8929360 No one thinks about this shit when they're playing.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 21 05:36:51 2022 No.8929442 >>8928918 It's not 3D, as it can't represent three dimensional spaces. No rooms on top of rooms, etc.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 21 05:37:58 2022 No.8929446 File: 45 KB, 744x488, 1629870777061.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>8928131 >Can move up

>>	Anonymous Sat May 21 05:46:46 2022 No.8929460 >>8929442 projectiles are 3D. calling it 3D with 2.5D levels is the most accurate term.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 21 05:51:56 2022 No.8929467 >>8929460 >projectiles are 3D. They're literal 2D sprites.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 21 06:15:23 2022 No.8929513 >>8929467 they move 3d and they have 3d hitboxes

>>	Anonymous Sat May 21 06:17:35 2022 No.8929516 >>8929513 Maybe in GZdoom, not in vanilla.

Anonymous Sat May 21 06:47:59 2022 No.8929567

>>8929516
In Vanilla, the rocket has a 3d hitbox and will hit a wall and explode and not kill the enemies above necesseraly like a shotgun would.
The only limit OG doom has in its 3dness is that rooms cant be stacked ontop of eachother, but that engine limitation doesnt make it 2d.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 21 07:42:22 2022 No.8929681 >>8929359 >Tech used to show a 3d space is old, therefore it's not 3d. By your measure, even new games today will be 2d as soon as there's a youtuber you can parrot uneducated bullshit from.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 21 08:34:23 2022 No.8929791 >>8929681 Its not 3d. It shows a space that appears to be 3d.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 21 08:35:04 2022 No.8929793 >>8929681 The picture literally explains how it works dude. No games today use ray casting

>>	Anonymous Sat May 21 08:42:55 2022 No.8929813 Doom is 2D and that's what makes it superior, you 3D worshipping lunatics need to accept that 2D > 3D before it's too late for your cult.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 21 09:00:47 2022 No.8929840 >>8929791 >It shows a space that appears to be 3d. That's every 3D game to ever exist. Raycasting isn't special in that regard.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 21 09:08:59 2022 No.8929856 >>8928079 Game logic is 2d, but it uses a 3d representation.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 21 09:10:32 2022 No.8929860 >>8928289 According to Yu Suzuki in an interview, it was coded with 3d coordinates in mind, since he coded everything like that. But it uses 2d presentation.

Anonymous Sat May 21 09:48:29 2022 No.8929942

>>8929442
Room over room doesn't make or break if it's 3D or not, the engine just doesn't do them and the games don't have them. If Quake featured no room over room geometry anywhere, regardless of the fact that the engine could do it or not, would that make Quake not a 3D game?

Lack of room over room is a limitation, but a plain square box of a room still has volume and still is a threedimensional space.
Is the sidewalk outside of your house not threedimensional just because there isn't a walkable space right above it?

>>	Anonymous Sat May 21 09:49:32 2022 No.8929945 >>8929856 Game logic is 3D.

Anonymous Sat May 21 09:51:11 2022 No.8929948

>>8929840
Ray casting is different in the regard that it casts rays and other methods directly texture simulated 3d spaces that move in concert with the players movements. In doom your gun is always in the same area but depending on the height or platform the enemy is on, facing them straight on will shoot them directly even if they are not directly in front of the gun. This is a limitation of raycasting. This is because in doom you cannot look up or stack rooms on top of each other, like you can in other 3d engines which directly simulate 3D space

>>	Anonymous Sat May 21 09:54:16 2022 No.8929952 >>8929681 There's a Z axis for enemy placement, so it's 3d

>>	Anonymous Sat May 21 10:05:55 2022 No.8929968 >>8929948 Ratcheting is a method directly texture simulated 3d spaces. A sandwich doesn't stop being a sandwich just because you can describe how the bread was placed around the meat.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 21 10:11:01 2022 No.8929980 >>8929968 >Ratcheting Raycasting Phone spellchecker...

Anonymous Sat May 21 10:11:03 2022 No.8929981

>>8928079
>looking up or down at all in Duke Nukem 3D, like, COMPLETELY warps your perspective, bro!!!1
These idiots hear an e-celeb opinion once and think they've discovered some esoteric knowledge they must shill to the plebeians who they somehow believe have never heard the same thing.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 21 10:18:01 2022 No.8929993 >>8929968 >simulate Glad we agree

>>	Anonymous Sat May 21 10:30:18 2022 No.8930024 >>8929993 Just like ever 3d game ever made.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 21 10:43:41 2022 No.8930052 The shitposting is too strong And no, Doom wasn’t 3D, you guys are overthinking

>>	Anonymous Sat May 21 10:45:31 2022 No.8930059 >>8930024 I'm not going to argue with you anymore. Its a 2d game engine.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 21 10:55:55 2022 No.8930081 Are the Build games also 2.5D?

>>	Anonymous Sat May 21 11:08:48 2022 No.8930102 Can I view the front, back, and interior, simultaneously? No, so it's not 2d.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 21 12:05:20 2022 No.8930241 >>8928079 How about we meet in the middle with 2.5D

>>	Anonymous Sat May 21 12:40:11 2022 No.8930315 >>8930241 No such thing.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 21 15:17:40 2022 No.8930739 >>8929442 Then how come projectiles fly over your head? How do crushers work if its 2d? How can you have a wall with a window in it?

>>	Anonymous Sat May 21 15:23:58 2022 No.8930767 File: 181 KB, 778x394, eliteguardwolfensteinmarichka.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>8928079 Aight

>>	Anonymous Sat May 21 16:28:00 2022 No.8930906 doomrl is my favorite doom

Anonymous Sat May 21 16:48:06 2022 No.8930954

The only thing that makes Doom somehow understand 3D logic are the projectiles and despite this, projectiles that generate splash damage will still forget about that logic since when they do explode way above your head they will still damage you.

Nothing else follows a 3D logic, there's no room above room, there's infinite height for every enemy, the restriction of walls is just some wizardry that can show its flaws when you enable no clip.

Doom its simply the pinnacle of 2D engines, sure later on came Doom clones that improved over it but still, everything Doom did is possibly the most you can do with such engine.

Anonymous Sat May 21 18:08:58 2022 No.8931150

>>8930954
>projectiles that generate splash damage will still forget about that logic since when they do explode way above your head they will still damage you
Explosions have infinite vertical range, but their damage is still calculated in horizontal proximity to the target.
Since Doom 1 didn't make strong use out of verticality, they presumably thought it wouldn't be necessary and could just skip doing that calculation for the sake of CPU speed.

>there's no room above room
That isn't necessary for a three dimensional space.

>infinite height for every enemy
There actually is not, this is a misconception, every actor in the game has a defined height, width, and even mass, with height and width determining what terrain they can navigate and when. If a projectile/hitscan is too far up or down, they will pass over or under.

The confusion comes from explosions, the vertical auto-aim (which requires an actual line of sight within 1024 map units), as well as how players and monsters cannot move above and below each other, as the engine just skips that step (again, probably because it was thought to not be necessary and they could save a little on performance). Monster melee attacks also don't function the same as the player's, just checking if the target is next to them regardless of height (in the first released versions, it was a really short ranged hitscan, like the player's, so it actually checked for height there).

It's not that the engine is incapable of any of this, Heretic, Hexen, and Strife all add these skipped checks (and jumping, fall damage, looking up and down, etc) with just a few short simple lines of code each.

This would be unlike Wolfenstein 3D, where if you wanted walls which weren't at perfect 90 degree angles and locked to a grid, not to talk about any height or volume, you would have to do substantial additions and even replacements.

>the restriction of walls is just some wizardry that can show its flaws when you enable no clip
What?

Anonymous Sat May 21 18:15:15 2022 No.8931162

The definition of 3D is simple.

Is there 3 axis, X, Y and Z, and are they extensively used during gameplay?

If the answer is yes, it is 3D. Doom's level design uses the third axis (Z) a lot (sectors of different heights, different floor levels, etc). Doom's gameplay uses the Z axis a lot (flying enemies, rockets can be shot upwards or downards, etc). Therefore it's 3D.

Anything else is irrelevant.

The problem is revionism. Video games marketing has ALWAYS been about shoving technical terms down the throat of people who don't understand it to make it seem like "NEW = BETTER ! SO YOU MUST BUY IT AT THE HIGH PRICE!!!". When Doom came out, everyone called it 3D. But then when games like Quake came out, they weren't sure how to market it so they went like
>okay so you see now it's REEEEAAALLL THREE-DEE. We were basically lying to you before about it being THREE-DEEEE, but you see now you can trust us, it's REEAAALLL this time! BUY IT!

Anonymous Sat May 21 18:18:46 2022 No.8931171
File: 436 KB, 1046x961, Doom_map_E4M3[1].png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>8928079
It's a 2D game with the visual illusion of 3D space. the game's internal logic is that of a top down 2D map which then does some magic to present this as a 3D space. Think of it as D&D style dungeon maps. It's why you can't do "map over map" since the game-logic is 2D.

John Carmack might be one of the most innovative and genius programmers ever in the history of gaming since he was doing things which were thought impossible with the hardware at the time. PCs were not built for smooth scrolling whereas the Famicom and it's later mappers were built for this. He figured it out. A proper 3D game on PCs couldn't be done for years, but he made one that gave the illusion of it.

>>8928141
>>everything has a defined height, width, and mass

Original engine everything has infinite height.

>>all three axes are present

Just the 4 cardinal ones and that's it. Everythin

Anonymous Sat May 21 18:25:44 2022 No.8931191

>>8931162
>If the answer is yes, it is 3D. Doom's level design uses the third axis (Z) a lot (sectors of different heights, different floor levels, etc). Doom's gameplay uses the Z axis a lot (flying enemies, rockets can be shot upwards or downards, etc). Therefore it's 3D.

But that's reading it wrong. You're focused on what you see in-game, versus what the game is thinking. Later Doom engines have proper 3D support, but I'm talking about the very first interation of the engine.

What you see on screen is an illusion.

https://doomwiki.org/wiki/3D_floor

Anonymous Sat May 21 18:47:58 2022 No.8931237

>>8931191
>>8931162
Doesn't matter what the game's internal workings are. Claiming that it has a 2d internal map is meaningless because it's just a means to produce 3d. Every 3d game is using programming tricks to produce depth that it isn't able to appreciate internally. Stand on an overpass in GTA-SA and watch how traffic below freaks out as if you were standing on the road in front of them. Look at your 2d Map in Eldin Ring. Every game performs a mathematical illusion to present 3d to you on your flat 2d video screen. That map that looks flat in doom, includes numerical dimension values to establish the height of the ground. The numerical value is literally a representation of dimension.

Anonymous Sat May 21 18:59:09 2022 No.8931263
File: 18 KB, 959x791, f22tnt-m[1].gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>8931237
>because it's just a means to produce 3d.

But it's not 3D. Doom is perfectly playable in it's 2D form on a map. If you just added dots for projectiles and monsters, it would play more like Asteroids. The in-game map is very akin to the game logic. Something like Elden Ring has a 2D map, but it's useless and can't compare to the game-logic. It instead has multiple maps that could be made, like the collision map, etc which all would be properly 3D.

You're getting too caught up with what the player sees, which is a workaround instead of proper 3D. A proper 3D engine is a physical impossibility on home computers of that era.

Anonymous Sat May 21 19:05:59 2022 No.8931280

>>8931263
>proper 3D
Do you hear yourself? Your ENTIRE argument is that the game engine is old. Your argument has nothing to do with what dimensionality is. You want to claim that it's an illusion while forgetting that every game lacks an internal space for its polygonal shapes. Even the newest of games is made of flat hollow beings with no internal anatomy. Eldin Ring is just as much of an illusion as Doom or Wolfenstein3D o 3-Demon.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 21 19:09:11 2022 No.8931290 >>8931280 Well, frankly you're just an idiot who doesn't understand these issues and is going into equivocation. "Dude, none of it is 3D!". After having this explained mutliple times and you don't get it then you might just be an idiot.

Anonymous Sat May 21 19:11:43 2022 No.8931304

>>8931290
ALL OF IT IS 3D!
Some youtuber explained what raycasting is, and you think that singles it out because you got a description of how it works. If they had explained a different system of rendering, then you would be claiming it wasn't 3d instead. It's not special just because someone explained how it works.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 21 19:12:55 2022 No.8931306 >>8928079 Its non-polygonal, but yes there is motion along all three axis. Everyone here knows this. This is just a pointless jibbering about categorization. Is wario land vitual boy 3d?

Anonymous Sat May 21 19:16:42 2022 No.8931318

>>8928079
correct op, rest assured if there is contrarianism that involves anything even remotely technical, then redditors will jump on it to make themselves feel good.
The game may be technically 2d in how it renders everything, but functionally you play the game with the belief that it is 3d, thus it is.

Anonymous Sat May 21 19:16:56 2022 No.8931319
File: 311 KB, 1920x1080, mpv-shot0665.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>8931304
Wolfenstein is Raycasting, and Doom is a more complicated system. But it's still an illusion with the game logic being entirely 3D. The illusion is so good idiots like you still go on "Its muh 3D!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb6Eo1D6VW8

>>	Anonymous Sat May 21 19:18:54 2022 No.8931320 >>8931319 All games are an illusion. You haven't made an argument.

Anonymous Sat May 21 19:42:25 2022 No.8931385

>>8930954
>the restriction of walls is just some wizardry that can show its flaws when you enable no clip.
Do you mean seeing the framebuffer? Because that has nothing to do with 3D or not, Quake and Half-Life will do the same "hall of mirrors" shimmering of frames if you noclip out of bounds or forget a texture.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 21 19:56:09 2022 No.8931416 File: 620 KB, 1600x1192, mario-kart-64-n64.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Mario Kart 64 is technically a Doom clone

>>	Anonymous Sat May 21 20:09:21 2022 No.8931465 >>8931263 Doom has a 3D space There are platforms you cannot reach if you are not at the right height There are monsters who can fly overhead your character The game has 3 dimensions You are an idiot

>>	Anonymous Sat May 21 20:11:19 2022 No.8931470 >>8931318 Every 3D game renders itself in 2D Your monitor only has 2 dimensions

>>	Anonymous Sat May 21 20:13:51 2022 No.8931481 >all video games are an illusion, because, because I Said that they are, OKAY! Read a book or 3, instead of eating up crap from Tumblr, Twitter, and plebbit. >>8931319 >THAT dumbfuck He has a few points, but I digress, fuck him.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 22 00:22:54 2022 No.8932119 File: 281 KB, 720x580, howjcmadedoom.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>8928079 >She didn't get cut in half except she did

Anonymous Sun May 22 01:15:31 2022 No.8932203
File: 84 KB, 904x823, the-legend-of-zelda-nes-screenshots-08[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Asking people if Doom is 3D is an IQ test. Those who think it's 3D fail, and those who say no pass.

You could use raycasting technology to turn any top down 2D game into something akin to Wolfenstein 3D. It doesn't mean it's actually 3D. Doom's engine is just a bit more complex.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 22 02:09:23 2022 No.8932297 >>8932203 Doom doesn't use raycasting, you retard.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 22 02:10:41 2022 No.8932303 >>8929467 didn't know mario kart 64 was a 2d game now

>>	Anonymous Sun May 22 03:08:50 2022 No.8932386 >>8932297 Yes it does, and it's why you don't have to aim on the Z axis

>>	Anonymous Sun May 22 03:10:54 2022 No.8932392 All games are 3d

>>	Anonymous Sun May 22 03:19:34 2022 No.8932407 >>8932386 I hope you get raped by a pack of wild niggers.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 22 04:37:29 2022 No.8932492 File: 220 KB, 1280x720, 1614323774706.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>8932407

Anonymous Sun May 22 05:07:14 2022 No.8932526

>>8931171
>Original engine everything has infinite height.
No, everything has a defined height, otherwise nothing would work.

>>8932386
Not aiming for the Z-Axis is because you have a vertical auto-aim, which has limited range.

Doom renders with Binary Space Partitioning, which is distinct from Raycasting.

Anonymous Sun May 22 06:38:22 2022 No.8932619

>>8932526
It automatically aims because there is no vertical axis on the game map to aim with. There is no vertical axis because maps are two dimensional, things like topography are effectively numerical contrivances and don't magically add a third axis to a 2D map. The game is indisputably 2D despite your player being represented in your POV as moving through space and that's because you can only move through space two dimensionally on the map, with any changes in height not affecting the player's position on the map. All of these characteristics tie back to the fact that the game uses raycasting to render the POV.

All that said, you do understand that BSP is used in raycasting right? You're effectively explaining how you aren't drinking coffee because it's Americano instead. It's still coffee!

>>	Anonymous Sun May 22 07:29:06 2022 No.8932681 >>8929442 Anon, walk off a cliff into a lava pit by pushing forward. Now try to walk back up by pushing backward. You cannot. Height just had an effect on the gameplay, therefore its gameplay is 3D.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 22 07:55:48 2022 No.8932696 >>8928079 > I don't understand it so it's not true Classic /pol/ mindset. You should take care of that before becoming full-schizo like them.

Anonymous Sun May 22 08:05:14 2022 No.8932707
File: 2 KB, 200x200, 1325802-200.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>8932681
The only reason it had an effect is because of topographical distinctions made on a 2D map. The gameplay may look 3D, but the only way it can look that way is by having the player's avatar read the 2D map around it. The 3D POV is no more 3D than this box, created using similar perspective illusions.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 22 08:05:28 2022 No.8932708 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYGJQqhMN1U /argument /thread fuck all of you.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 22 08:16:04 2022 No.8932727 >>8932303 It has actual 3D environments

>>	Anonymous Sun May 22 08:54:17 2022 No.8932828 >>8932619 Doom is genuinely 3D because projectiles have Z coordinates, and players and enemies have vertical hitboxes. If an imp fires a fireball at you, you can dodge it by walking off a ledge and letting it pass above you.

Anonymous Sun May 22 09:13:17 2022 No.8932901

>>8928079
>Things exist in 3D (all 3 axis), but actual calculations for some shit only uses 2D (i.e. infinitely tall monsters)
>Maps being constructed out of raising and lowering floors/ceilings fundamentally creates a 3D shape
why would people think Doom is 2D again

>>	Anonymous Sun May 22 09:17:15 2022 No.8932914 >>8932901 Because they blindly parrot any youtuber with a channel.

Anonymous Sun May 22 09:24:00 2022 No.8932939

>>8932708
I dunno if you watched that video but he kinda admits the original engine doesn't process three axes and was never intended to at the 3:15 mark
>Another instance of Z-Axis not mattering - Explosions.
>Blast damage is applied based on the distance from ground zero and victims
>but Z-coordinate isn't taken into account, so the blastwave appears to be infinitely tall
>again this simplification was made deliberately - in most combat scenarios vertical positions of explosions don't matter.
>Optimization intent is quite obvious.
>You see, having vertical distance is very easy to program, requires few extra lines of code, and the only reason not to do it is to give those weak CPUs some breathing space
Let's break that down:
>Z-coordinate isn't taken into account
>This simplification was made deliberately
>Optimization intent is quite obvious
>The only reason not to do it is to give those weak CPUs some breathing space

Yeah, thanks John.
>>8932828
>>8932901
If the Doom engine were genuine 3D it would be able to draw walls that aren't perfectly vertical and floors that aren't perfectly flat. It could have rooms on top of each other. The reason it can't is because it's using an approximation of 3D based off a 2D map. Just because you can assign height values to objects on a 2D map doesn't suddenly make that 2D map 3D. The game engine is not processing 3D data unless you're using a modern doom engine (which generally isn't the version people are talking about when they mention Doom from 1993).

>>	Anonymous Sun May 22 09:28:56 2022 No.8932957 >>8932939 You can code these in and explosions will work with height. Its 3d, it was just done to make the game, which allready ran at only 35fps mind you run a bit better

Anonymous Sun May 22 09:38:14 2022 No.8932993

>>8932957
>Z-coordinate isn't taken into account
>This simplification was made deliberately
>Optimization intent is quite obvious
>The only reason not to do it is to give those weak CPUs some breathing space
If he wanted to make a 3D rendering engine with proper z-clipping he could (and did, with Quake). The fact he didn't do that with Doom despite the fact that it would have been incredibly easy to do so indicates that design choice as intentional. That indicates that the game is processing 2D, or if you must insist on what your brain is being tricked into seeing, the illusion of 3D>>8932707

>>	Anonymous Sun May 22 11:05:40 2022 No.8933286 >>8932993 but the projectiles are as 3d as 3d can be, they have a 3d hitbox, can travel through windows etc jsut the following explosion is simplified to speed up calculation

Anonymous Sun May 22 11:44:35 2022 No.8933369

How does this thread have 91 replies?
Doom rendered a "3D-looking" environment from a 2D map.
Room over room wasn't possible, actors and switches had infinite height.
It was never a true 3D engine. It was a 2D engine that was able to create a false 3D image.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 22 12:45:58 2022 No.8933534 >>8933369 >How does this thread have 91 replies? It's an IQ test. Some people can't grasp that you can have a fake pseudo-3D looknig game entirely from a 2D map.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 22 13:34:04 2022 No.8933659 >>8933369 if it isnt 3d, then how do windows work?

Anonymous Sun May 22 13:48:19 2022 No.8933717
File: 27 KB, 280x280, pwnage.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

3D games don't exist, because anything three dimensional is in a perfect steady state with no state change possible. Games are 4D, but only pseudo 4D, because no games that have been brought to market feature physics obeying Lorentz invariance. Thus, we call games 3.5D. Furthermore, once we've simulated our movements, to actually display the image we discharging atoms from high electron energy states to low states, and these atoms must exist in 4D spacetime. Really, this is irrelevent, because the game conceptually only exists in the players brain, and the neural pathways that process the audio visual (and haptic) inputs, formulate logical outputs, and drive the players motor neurons to deliver said outputs, all must exist in 4D spacetime too. Thus, we don't call games 3.5D, but 3.999...D, which is infinitely close to 4D but never quite reaches it. QED.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 22 13:52:43 2022 No.8933727 >>8933659 The 2D map has extra little pointers that say what to fake and when/where. It's a carefully constructed illusion.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 22 13:57:10 2022 No.8933729 >>8933727 You seem to think that being an illusion matters. It doesn't.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 22 14:00:25 2022 No.8933736 >>8928079 the game is 3D, but imagine all your weapons shoot very tall bullets that can damage whatever is below/above your crosshair

Anonymous Sun May 22 14:01:05 2022 No.8933739
File: 72 KB, 369x300, dukeputer.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>8932939
>If the Doom engine were genuine 3D it would be able to draw walls that aren't perfectly vertical and floors that aren't perfectly flat
What an amusing like in the sand. Does this mean games that implement 3D rotation using euler angles aren't real 3D, because they can't perform arbitrary 3D rotations? Maybe we'll call these 2.8D, and only call games that use quaternions 3D.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 22 14:02:31 2022 No.8933743 >>8933739 No 3D game is actually 3D because they're always being rendered on a 2D TV or monitor. (i.e. it's all arbitrary).

>>	Anonymous Sun May 22 14:04:56 2022 No.8933750 >>8933739 There's no such thing as fractional dimension. Even two flat horizontal planes would be enough to be considered a 3rd dimension.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 22 14:10:31 2022 No.8933762 This is some real Plato's Cave type shit. The apparent 3D gameplay is just a projection of a 2D map. People only see the end result and then think it's real. People try to tell them it's an illlusion and hate them.

Anonymous Sun May 22 14:14:38 2022 No.8933771

>>8933762
Games are all illusions. Cartesian coordinates are numbers on a grid. A numerical value that indicates the height of a platform is no different than the numerical value that indicates its position on a level map. Your level editor gave you a simple way to look at it, but dimensional values exist for all 3 positions.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 22 14:30:44 2022 No.8933809 File: 2.40 MB, 600x336, fuckinglovedoom.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] I fucking love Doom, nothing else matters

>>	Anonymous Sun May 22 14:34:05 2022 No.8933814 >>8933809 Something bothers me about the running around while leaving things alive behind you.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 22 14:34:13 2022 No.8933815 >>8928079 It's sprite-based 3D, as opposed to polygon-based 3D, the latter of which didn't really become feasible until around the time things like the 32X, the Super FX chip, the N64, the Saturn, the PS1, etc. was coming out.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 22 14:49:49 2022 No.8933858 Hey guys are sin() and cos() 2D or 3D?

>>	Anonymous Sun May 22 14:59:18 2022 No.8933887 File: 3.00 MB, 600x336, fuckinglovedoom2.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>8933814 I missed one zombieman but he was kind enough to gather his ass at the big room at the end

>>	Anonymous Sun May 22 15:10:42 2022 No.8933917 >>8928131 You can't walk over or under actors in vanilla. And ou can't put 2 rooms on top of each other.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 22 15:14:52 2022 No.8933930 File: 11 KB, 112x112, 1651969266201.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>8928079 I wish people had the same reverence for Duke 3D that they had for Doom.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 22 15:23:34 2022 No.8933957 >>8933930 Duke 3d is a fun game, but it wasn't really doing anything very new. It probably does have a better level design, but a newer game logically should have that or it isn't trying.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 22 15:25:34 2022 No.8933961 >>8933369 >actors and switches had infinite height. They did not. Projectiles can fire over your head.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 22 15:30:05 2022 No.8933976 >>8933961 >>8933369 Just an auto-aim system because the game didn't come with the ability to freely aim. Mouse aiming was not normalized yet.

Anonymous Sun May 22 15:31:48 2022 No.8933984

>>8933369
>>8933961
The reason for this isn't because it's "2D", it's to simplify collision detection on average dos-era machines. Explosions are infinite height, again, for optimization. Projectiles will pass over both enemies and the Doom marine because they are passing through a 3D space.

Anonymous Sun May 22 16:37:21 2022 No.8934207

>>8933957
>>8933930
A big upgrade for Duke that is often overlooked is that Duke's levels actually looked like real world places. A lot of Doom's maps are very abstract vague ehll world or industrial plant, but you can't tell what it is. in Duke you're clearly in a street, a theater, etc.

Anonymous Sun May 22 16:51:57 2022 No.8934260
File: 119 KB, 1280x1232, 2Q==(7).jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>8928079
I must not take the bait.
bait is the mind-killer.
bait is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face the bait.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past, I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the bait has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 22 17:00:56 2022 No.8934293 >>8934207 The industry in a gradual transition away from an arcade mentality. Wolfensein3D was just a straight-up maze trying to kill you.

Anonymous Sun May 22 17:05:16 2022 No.8934307
File: 81 KB, 625x625, 1650514162169.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>8931171
>Original engine everything has infinite height.
Wrong. You can pass under projectiles and Cacodemons have to gain altitude to be able to enter a window that's high.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 22 17:45:57 2022 No.8934463 >>8933369 >actors have infinite height Demonstrate this with the relevant piece of code or stop saying it.

Anonymous Sun May 22 18:18:15 2022 No.8934571

>>8933286
Couldn't matter less.
You seem to be ignoring the part where that simplification proves the intention of the engine as being functionally 2D.
>>8933729
>nuh uh cos I say so
Sure it does. It's why the game can appear 3D without actually being 3D. Do you not know what illusions are?>>8933739
>Euler angles aren't real 3D rotation
They are, you need actual float values to make those fine adjustments as opposed to the simple integers that Doom uses to approximate 3D space. The fact Doom doesn't have euler rotation or really any sort of object rotation would be another indication that it isn't real 3D.
>>8933771
Just turn on Z-look in crispy doom and tilt the POV, it doesn't have the converging and diverging perspective lines required for accurately portraying 3D space. That itself proves the engine was never accurately rendering precise 3D positions of object faces, edges, and vertices, it is only approximating it with a perspective illusion.
>>8933961
>>8934307
"a player may stand on a ledge of 640 floor height, and a blocking decoration or monster standing just in front, on a floor of height 0, will completely block the player from jumping."
Yeah because that would happen with a proper 3D render right? Optimizing the invisible height of enemies and allowing them to melee strike you from the ground to a maximum height platform? So 3D.
>muh projectiles and flying enemies
Exceptions to the rule are not the rule. If they weren't given exceptions, their functionality would cease. This only further proves the game is a 2D based approximation of 3D.

The fact that infinitely tall blast columns and infinitely tall enemies exist are evidence to the engine's fundamentally 2D processing. It's running a 2D map with topographical denotations to render the illusion of a 3D POV.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 22 18:26:49 2022 No.8934606 >>8934463 >Oh, you're a fan of z-coordinates? Name every instance where the doom engine ignores it It's faster to name what it doesn't ignore, which are projectiles, flying enemies, and the player's height. So, everything besides that. Which is a lot.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 22 18:34:28 2022 No.8934627 >>8928079 if my eyes think it's 3d, it's 3d, specially if gameplay occurs on all axis retards think it's 2d because technically the rendering engine is still a raycastar, and the maps are really stored in 2d

Anonymous Sun May 22 18:53:57 2022 No.8934679
File: 2.25 MB, 400x224, sRGeEQ.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>8934627
>Retards think it's 2D because it technically is and I don't know what perspective illusions are
"The train in the distance is apparently crossing my vision at 3 feet per second, therefore this train is moving at 3 feet a second. I think I'll leisurely hop on when it casually rolls by."

>>	Anonymous Mon May 23 01:38:52 2022 No.8935782 >>8933727 >The 2D map has extra little pointers No it doesn't. These extra pointers do not exist.

Anonymous Mon May 23 02:05:36 2022 No.8935820
File: 710 KB, 906x930, 1645914944145.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>8928289
It is, but people think you can't simplify the 3D calculations to limit camera and object movement in exchange for actually being able to run the game at a viable speed. It's not 3D if you can't implement a 6dof jet fighter game on top of it apparently.
In OutRun the camera is locked into looking at the horizon so the only expensive part is translating an object's X/Y coordinates to screen coords, according to its distance to the camera. Objects farther from the camera will be drawn smaller because we're doing perspective projection, AKA what every 3D game does (which can be made as simple as x/z, y/z, screen at Z=1, try it out!). Scaling 2D sprites according to that projection would be expensive too if not for the arcade hardware having that implemented on silicon.
The only thing that's not real 3D in OutRun are hills, which is just a rough distortion effect -- you can see objects not matching the movement of the stripes on the road and movement being off in sections that have short hills.
You get a greater appreciation and respect for these games once you actually try to implement them, especially in old hardware where you can't just do multiplies and divides like it's nothing. I see where people come from with the term 2.5D but honestly the term is pretty demeaning as you NEED to know how "full 3D" works in order to simplify and optimize it for a specific game like it's done in Outrun, Wolf3D, Doom, Douk3D and others. You can really tell when the display routines were done out of guesswork instead because they'll always look off at best, garbage at worst.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 23 02:12:29 2022 No.8935832 >>8933739 based post that will fly over the head of 99.999% of /vr/

>>	Anonymous Mon May 23 03:55:25 2022 No.8936017 >>8934679 Fag. >>8935820 Thank you.

Anonymous Mon May 23 04:31:55 2022 No.8936070

>>8935820
>It's not 3D if you can't implement a 6dof jet fighter game on top of it apparently.
Indeed, for example Wing War is 3D rendered while games like Outrun, After Burner and Space Harrier use clever scaling based on 3D calculations to achieve the illusion of 3D while merely rendering and scaling 2D sprites. Kinda like Doom! Did you mean to do that?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 23 04:34:23 2022 No.8936074 >>8935832 Yeah non sequiturs tend to do that

Anonymous Mon May 23 04:44:57 2022 No.8936082
File: 371 KB, 594x542, file.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>8932681
>Anon, walk off a cliff by pushing forward. Now try to walk back up by pushing backward. You cannot. Height just had an effect on the gameplay, therefore its gameplay is 3D.

Pokémon Red confirmed for 3D gameplay.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 23 04:56:30 2022 No.8936095 File: 1.84 MB, 500x338, 6f601524c4a7a85243bed0786ba49e05.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>8936082 Link to the Past is my favourite 3D Zelda

>>	Anonymous Mon May 23 05:40:37 2022 No.8936151 >>8931481 dipshit

>>	Anonymous Mon May 23 05:41:00 2022 No.8936153 File: 146 KB, 613x465, there_are_you_happy_now.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>8928079 It's so simple you guys: x y coordinates only -> 2.5D x y z coordinates -> 3D > sauce? the literal fucking source code

>>	Anonymous Mon May 23 05:41:54 2022 No.8936154 >>8932203 >Asking people if Doom is 3D is an autism test ftfy

Anonymous Mon May 23 05:55:22 2022 No.8936176

>>8933369
>How does this thread have 91 replies?
retards on both sides who don't understand that one side is talking about the subjective truth while the other is talking about the objective truth. Both matter here but these imps are more interested in infighting than reaching actual understanding. It's fun to watch

Anonymous Mon May 23 05:57:16 2022 No.8936183

>>8928079

It's 3dimensional in some aspects. The format in which the levels are stored is more about data compression then being 2 dimensional. Albeit Quake is technically more impressive, Carmack outdid himself with Doom - many clever solutions for pretty hard problems.

Anonymous Mon May 23 06:43:17 2022 No.8936268

>>8936153
What do you think those z-coordinates are used for? Those have to be written on the map so they can be physically represented when the player looks at them. Like yes, the POV gives the impression of a third dimension, but there physically isn't a z-axis there on the 2D map in the way that a Quake map or GoldSrc map has a physical z-axis in their maps. You know, since those engines are actually rendering 3D space from 3D coordinates and all. Much more system intensive.

Anonymous Mon May 23 07:00:51 2022 No.8936302
File: 1013 KB, 967x1054, map06.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>8936268
what are you even talking about, just the simplest examples:
- you can fall down (z axis considered)
- bullets can pass below or above you (z axis
considered once again)
it's a 3D game with a limited map format that may be but there is a z axis on the map:
the sector floor height and ceiling height is literally the bottom z and top z of a sector
(pic related)

Anonymous Mon May 23 08:03:41 2022 No.8936385

>>8936302
If you don't know then it's because you didn't read closely enough.
>Like yes, the POV gives the impression of a third dimension, but there physically isn't a z-axis there on the 2D map in the way that a Quake map or GoldSrc map has a physical z-axis in their maps.
What confuses people is the modern engine ports of Doom which actually do use proper 3D rendering and full z-clipping, that's how you got that photo there.
The original Doom engine was programmed to utilize perspective tricks to represent 3D space by drawing scaled 2D images. That's all Doom maps are: Two dimensional maps of corridors and arenas with various heights denoted rather than physically represented on the flat, two dimensional map. It has to be denoted, because you can't visually communicate depth from a flat, two dimensional, overhead representation of physical space. That's what the POV is for, to take the 2D representation of physical space and show it in a way that better identifies with people. That said, just because the POV appears 3D to your easily decieved eyes does not magically make the map data or the rendering engine 3D. It's a perspective trick, remember?

Also,
>a player may stand on a ledge of 640 floor height, and a blocking decoration or monster standing just in front, on a floor of height 0, will completely block the player from jumping. In the case of monsters, and for a different reason, they are additionally able to perform their melee attack on the player successfully
This doesn't work in modern Doom ports like ZDoom.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 23 08:22:25 2022 No.8936406 >>8934627 my eyes don't think it's 3d however when i see a monster from "above" and it's a sheet of paper pointless autistic thread

>>	Anonymous Mon May 23 08:26:47 2022 No.8936417 File: 678 KB, 1214x933, alttp2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>8928131 behold: a 3D game

>>	Anonymous Mon May 23 08:35:40 2022 No.8936435 There is no Doom

>>	Anonymous Mon May 23 08:41:46 2022 No.8936452 >>8936082 Kek. Btfo

>>	Anonymous Mon May 23 08:43:28 2022 No.8936457 >>8933930 All the Build games are overshadowed by Doom.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 23 08:58:59 2022 No.8936480 >>8928079 "the gameplay is strictly on a 2D plane, but the rendering is done with 3D coordinates." John Carmack.

Anonymous Mon May 23 09:20:55 2022 No.8936514

>>8936385
you have a fundamental misunderstanding about what 3D rendering is, that I know
just because Doom doesn't use triangles for rendering it doesn't make it 2D
yes the collision between monsters is done cheaply, that doesn't makes things 2D either (and once again this doesn't apply for bullets)
have you even played the original Doom?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 23 10:13:33 2022 No.8936608 File: 283 KB, 1000x744, rock-age.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>8933717

>>	Anonymous Mon May 23 10:37:14 2022 No.8936660 File: 9 KB, 251x228, Thatkoffingcat.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>8933815 Just to throw a spanner in the works of having a simple dichotomy, what do you call Descent, which has 3d enemy models and 2d powerup billboarded sprites?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 23 10:41:43 2022 No.8936669 File: 52 KB, 600x431, d59_haha.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>8934679 Lads, wait till this guy discovers his halo game uses a projection matrix.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 23 11:30:02 2022 No.8936760 >>8936417 Yeah, isometric projection is essentially 3d. More than one plane of height is there. The ground below Link is obscured by his presence above it.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 23 11:56:07 2022 No.8936813 >>8930739 By simulating a 3D environment in a 2D engine. Everything in Doom is 2D, especially the crushers and the projectiles.

Anonymous Mon May 23 12:00:20 2022 No.8936823

>>8931237
>Doesn't matter what the game's internal workings are.
That's the only thing that matters while defining a 3D engine, your perception, personal feelings, sexual deviancy are completely irrelevant.
https://twitter.com/id_aa_carmack/status/617694922825596928?lang=en

>>	Anonymous Mon May 23 12:01:55 2022 No.8936829 >>8931416 Mario Kart 64 has fully three dimensional environments, it just uses flat models to represent the characters.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 23 12:04:11 2022 No.8936834 There are no 3D games, all screens are 2D

>>	Anonymous Mon May 23 12:05:06 2022 No.8936835 >>8936760 >Yeah, isometric projection is essentially 3d Isometric projection is intrinsically 2D, hence the "projection" part. Go back to school, son.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 23 12:06:28 2022 No.8936840 >>8936660 That doesn't throw a spanner in anything, you're just so fucking retarded you can't discern between descent's fully 3D engine and Doom's 2D engine.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 23 12:57:27 2022 No.8936968 File: 82 KB, 446x400, laughs.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>8936840 You may not realize it, but this is what peak dunning-kruger looks like.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 23 13:00:32 2022 No.8936973 >>8936070 (You)

>>	Anonymous Mon May 23 18:15:54 2022 No.8937913 >>8936968 And this is what an hominem looks like. You sound lost and confused.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 23 19:24:20 2022 No.8938105 >>8930954 All these deficiencies can be fixed by adding a few additional z checks. Does that mean a game is 2d or 3d based on a few lines of code?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 23 19:27:30 2022 No.8938112 >>8936302 That doesn't make it 3d moron, if we counted that as 3d q-bert would be 3d.

Anonymous Mon May 23 19:33:03 2022 No.8938131

>>8932619
The doom engine is 3d, auto-aim only exists because the player has no way to aim manually. But if you were to add manual aiming it would work with no additional alterations to the engine. Do I have to download the original source code and add manual aiming in 5 minutes to shut you people up?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 23 19:57:13 2022 No.8938186 >>8938131 >The doom engine is 3d, How many times do we have to explain this is wrong?

>>	Anonymous Mon May 23 20:03:58 2022 No.8938205 >>8938186 > all objects have xyz coordinates > all objects have xyz speed, momentum > object/level collision takes into account z-axis > hit scans have a z component and collide with walls and ceilings Seems pretty 3d to me.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 23 20:11:53 2022 No.8938230 >>8938186 He's been effectively demonstrating that you're wrong, but you just seem too thick to get it.

Anonymous Mon May 23 20:22:33 2022 No.8938261

>>8938205
>>8938230
Ehh.. The Z axis is a little more limited than you're making out. It isn't always taken into account.

For instance, while yes, you can walk under a projectile, you can't walk under (or over, for that matter) an enemy.

There's no Z axis check on melee or switch/door use either - you can punch a demon, or throw a switch, on a ledge 50 feet above you.

In vanilla Doom actors are infinitely tall. See the DoomWiki page on Z-clipping.
https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Z-clipping

It's also impossible for the vanilla engine to have one room above another, so when you show that cube and ask what the difference between it is and the polygonal one is, the answer is, the polygonal one has a bottom side. The one in doom can't. It can't float above the ground. Unless it's hollow, it can only have a max of 5 sides. The sixth has to be connected the floor or ceiling of neighboring sector.

Anonymous Mon May 23 21:05:04 2022 No.8938372

>>8936480
Well there you go, the game isn't entirely 3D.
>>8936514
In case you didn't catch it, I said the POV allows for the perception of the third dimension. My point was that it technically isn't there on the map, it is only represented by numerical data rather than being physically shown with the dimensions of the map. It physically can't be, it's 2D.
>>8936669
Can't say I've played that.
>>8938131
The doom engine renders the illusion of 3D from a 2D map. The map is being processed in two dimensions, and raycasting allows that 2D map to have the appearance of being a 3D space. But it's still a 2D map. The gameplay is 2D because the Map is 2D. It just looks 3D because that's how the POV works. Looking a certain way doesn't make it 3D gameplay, it just creates the illusion of it.

As you said, you wouldn't need to alter the engine to allow for vertical aiming to work, because it aims automatically. It aims automatically because the gameplay is 2D.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 23 21:38:58 2022 No.8938494 >>8938372 but it still has vertical checks. People call it 2.5D since it's cheating a lot and isn't 3D.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 23 21:47:36 2022 No.8938516 >>8938494 So do many 2D games, LttP is my first thought. >it's cheating a lot and isn't 3D Why is it so wrong to say that it's a 3D illusion? It's a lot more accurate.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 24 00:59:25 2022 No.8939007 >>8930315 Wrong

Anonymous Tue May 24 01:06:04 2022 No.8939021

Doom has 3D environments, they are just restricted in a number of ways.
You can't say that doom is 2D, because it has constructs that don't even make sense in 2D, they are simply incomprehensible to someone who can only understand two dimensions.

Explain crushers to someone who can only understand two dimensions.
Explain a cacodemon shooting a fireball down at you from a higher level and how to dodge underneath it.
Explain to someone in 2 dimensions that they need to climb "stairs" to reach a level where you can activate a switch that would have been too "high" to reach otherwise.
Etc etc
>>8931263
>But it's not 3D. Doom is perfectly playable in it's 2D form on a map

>gets crushed by a crusher that cannot be shown in 2D form
>meanwhile, a true 3D chad dodging underneath cacodemon blasts and cyberdemon rockets in 3D space

>>	Anonymous Tue May 24 01:12:45 2022 No.8939038 >>8939021 Variable topography. Is that adequate?

>>	Anonymous Tue May 24 01:20:06 2022 No.8939063 People here need to read some Flatland.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 24 02:03:27 2022 No.8939167 File: 149 KB, 910x828, Phildoll.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>8928079 Polygons are 2D shapes

>>	Anonymous Tue May 24 02:27:06 2022 No.8939230 >>8939038 variable topography which contains data describing three dimensions, sure

>>	Anonymous Tue May 24 02:28:06 2022 No.8939231 >>8939038 That's just a synonym for an additional dimension.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 24 02:34:21 2022 No.8939238 >>8939230 >>8939231 Congratulations, you now know how to communicate three dimensions in 2D! Ta-Da!

>>	Anonymous Tue May 24 02:36:09 2022 No.8939247 >>8939238 That would make it a 3D game.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 24 02:38:24 2022 No.8939251 >>8939238 so what you're saying is, doom is 3D communicated to 2D.... well so is every other pre-VR 3D game ya dummy

>>	Anonymous Tue May 24 03:34:24 2022 No.8939365 >>8939247 >>8939251 2D map which becomes 3D through a perspective illusion. Read >>8932707

>>	Anonymous Tue May 24 03:36:39 2022 No.8939370 >>8939365 >>8932707 1. How can you rise up or down? How does a crusher work? 2. how can you fire above or below things?

>>	Anonymous Tue May 24 03:37:25 2022 No.8939373 >>8939365 That would make it 3D.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 24 03:42:43 2022 No.8939385 >>8939365 A bungalow can be described by a single page 2d blueprint, therefore bungalows are 2d.

Anonymous Tue May 24 03:48:39 2022 No.8939402

>>8939370
The height variable changes, it's not represented on the map itself.
You're firing on the entire z axis
>>8939373
It makes it look 3D. The problem is the semantics of the OP's statement. The engine runs on 2D map data, but it renders it in a way that appears 3D.

You're clearly not interested in the nature of how that image is created and how that would affect the definition. Don't worry about it.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 24 03:50:05 2022 No.8939406 >>8939385 You don't live in a blueprint kek. Cool blues song idea though. "I live in a blueprint bungalow".

>>	Anonymous Tue May 24 03:53:49 2022 No.8939419 >>8936153 the wolf3d variables should rather be name x,z because y is always implicitly 0. It just shows you how the levels were designed

>>	Anonymous Tue May 24 04:05:08 2022 No.8939439 >>8939402 >The height variable changes, it's not represented on the map itself. >You're firing on the entire z axis ie it's 3D.

Anonymous Tue May 24 04:40:15 2022 No.8939495

>>8939439
>ie I don't get it
The map remains 2D during the whole render process. The render is not the map.

Because the map is 2D, shots fired are drawn using the entire z axis by sheer coincidence of the render process. A segment drawn between an x,y coordinate when viewed on it's side, in the first dimension, would be infinitely tall. That segment is the line drawn when firing upon an enemy on the 2D map. It doesn't matter what z coordinates an enemy has, it will automatically fire upon its z coordinate due to the map data the engine runs on. Which is 2D.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 24 04:41:38 2022 No.8939498 >>8939495 You can fire above and below enemies you stupid nigger. ie not 2D.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 24 04:54:13 2022 No.8939520 >>8939498 I explained why you can't. Feel free to refute that when you're done projecting

Anonymous Tue May 24 04:54:38 2022 No.8939521
File: 1.54 MB, 632x526, 3d_engine_c.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>8939402

"it's not represented on the map itself"

>when a sectors height changes it's not represented on the map itself

do you mean represented on the top down 2D view of the map? well newsflash, the map data contains 3d information that isn't displayed in the top down view. it's called the y coordinates. those y coordinates are used in rendering, collision detection logic, and gameplay logic.

stop posting until you open a text editor and make your own 3d engine
webm related, my 3d engine running on a 7MHz 68000

>>8939495
>The map remains 2D during the whole render process

bullshit, you don't know what you're talking about.

This is how doom's rendering works (omitting a lot of details), you take the world-space x and z coordinates of a wall, transform according to player position, rotate according to player rotation, and then you project to screen space by dividing by depth.

Essentially all 3D games do something like this.

roughly it looks like this

translated_x = map_x - player_x;
translated_y = map_y - player_y;

rotated_x = translated_x * sin(player_angle) - translated_y * cos(player_angle);
rotated_y = translated_x * cosplayer_angle) + translated_y * sin(player_angle)

proj_screen_x = rotated_x * SCALE_X / z;
proj_screen_y = (rotate_y-player_z) * SCALE_Y / z;

SCALE_X and SCALE_Y are constants mostly defined by the camera field of view.

the rendering takes into account coordinates in all three coordinates.

In case anybody else who actually knows what they're talking about is in this thread, don't autism at me about how doom uses polar coordinates. Yes, doom does some parts a little different, but it achieves the same result.

Anonymous Tue May 24 04:56:57 2022 No.8939526

>>8939495
The game has vertical auto-aim. If you were to disable that then you would no longer be able to hit enemies at different heights. The maps may be 2d, but they encode floor and ceiling height information, and from that the rest of the game operates in 3d coordinate space. If you look at the source code you will see that the game operates in 3d.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 24 04:58:08 2022 No.8939527 In fact Doom would be MORE 3D than what people in these threads claim "real 3D" because Doom draws walls as rectangles when "real 3D" is only capable of doing triangles. It uses more complex polygons so it would actually be closer to 3.5D

>>	Anonymous Tue May 24 04:58:57 2022 No.8939528 >>8939521 Based Sega homebrewer chad.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 24 05:04:30 2022 No.8939538 File: 2.18 MB, 640x476, eyerub.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>8939527

>>	Anonymous Tue May 24 05:21:04 2022 No.8939567 File: 19 KB, 413x395, lolclassy.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>8939527 Based truthposter

Anonymous Tue May 24 05:29:02 2022 No.8939582

>>8939498
Enemies below you can melee attack you from any depth, even if you can't see them. That's a quirk of the player and enemy being on a 2D map.
>>8939521
That's sweet and all but I did with game maker like ten years ago. Wouldn't hurt to give it a spin on a micro, though.
>the map data contains 3d information that isn't displayed in the top down view.
Yeah exactly. The whole reason 3D projections can be taken from 2D maps is by attributing values to sections of the 2D map. You can call the projection 3D, but the engine is interpreting that from information represented in 2D.
Also
>cosplayer_angle)
Lol
>>8939526
With the premise granted, anything's possible.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 24 05:32:44 2022 No.8939585 >>8939527 The word you were looking for is quadrilaterals

>>	Anonymous Tue May 24 05:40:31 2022 No.8939595 >>8939582 > That's a quirk of the player and enemy being on a 2D map No its not, its just because the z-check is missing, I could just as easily remove the z-check from quake or any other "real" 3d game and it would have the same issue.

Anonymous Tue May 24 05:53:15 2022 No.8939608
File: 12 KB, 250x250, 1618534252095.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>8939595
It's almost like z-checking is an addition to the engine rather than being fundamentally linked. You know, because the engine creates 3D projections by reading 2D maps.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 24 06:46:13 2022 No.8939692 >>8928079 Is there even a meaningful difference between reading a pre-generated 3D level vs constructing the same 3D level out of shifting some 2D elements up + down on a third axis? It's the same shit in a different format

>>	Anonymous Tue May 24 07:06:07 2022 No.8939713 >>8939692 The 2D map is light on processing while the 3D map allows for more complex movement and geometry.

Anonymous Tue May 24 07:19:13 2022 No.8939727

>>8939608
melee attack range has nothing whatsoever to do with the map, the check does query the map at all. Its purely based on the distance between the two game objects. Doom only checks the distance in the xy plane, but one could easily also include the z direction. A "true" 3d game could just as easily ignore z direction in melee code.

Anonymous Tue May 24 10:49:33 2022 No.8940170

>>8939582
Yeah I missed a parem

You're basically contradicting yourself, is it a 2D map or not? Certain parts of the map layout are 2D, for a certain meaning of 2D, but others are 3D.

A purely 2D map cannot have information about topology, which means doom is in a category that isn't quite fully 3D in the sense of no restrictions, but definitely isn't 2D.

Anonymous Tue May 24 13:45:32 2022 No.8940772

>>8939582
>That's a quirk of the player and enemy being on a 2D map.
Wrong, you fucking spastic retard, in the first released versions of Doom, Pinkies DID check for height for melee attacks, because back then, Pinky melee attacks were a short range hitscan attack, just like the player's, so not only would they have to actually be able to physically reach you in all instances, they could actually miss and even hit each other.

This behavior caused some issues with infighting, and was soon replaced with a simple check to see if the target is next to them, ignoring checking for height.
So it's a matter of, the engine can do it, it was even implemented at one point, but that it just skips it.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 24 13:48:33 2022 No.8940780 >>8935820 yeah

Anonymous Tue May 24 17:43:37 2022 No.8941609

>>8939727
>one could easily also include the z direction
If it's so easy, why didn't they?
>>8940170
The projections look 3D, and are being created by a 2D map. Since there is apparently no room for nuance here, I suppose I'm forced to say it's both 3D AND 2D, even though I personally disagree on calling a game that doesn't define 3D geometry via explicit x,y,z coordinates as being "true" 3D. It defines 3D geometry as a combination of vertexes (x,y coordinates), sectors (z-coordinate floors and ceilings) and linedefs (connecting the previous two). The fact they're all tied together through seperate processes is my reasoning for not defining the game strictly as being 3D, because all of those functions are a result of the 2D engine and how it renders space.
>Topology
Topology is a branch of mathematics concerned with the distortion of shapes. Topography is a branch of geography concerned with the natural and constructed features on the surface of land, such as mountains, lakes, roads, and buildings. I was referring to topography, which is a manner of representing 3D space on a 2D plane.
>>8940772
If it's skipping height checking because it's causing infighting, it sounds like the short range height checking for enemies was broken. I'm sure you can imagine what I would blame for that.

Anonymous Tue May 24 17:53:03 2022 No.8941664

>>8941609
>it sounds like the short range height checking for enemies was broken
It worked fine, they just didn't want pinkies to be able to start infighting with each other (as it probably made them less threatening), which they could do with the first method for melee attacks.

You can also simply just add the missing axis to the check with a short line of code and the engine will then check for height when the Pinkie tries to take a bite. You'd probably also want to add a check so that the Pinkie won't bother trying to bite at the target if they're too high or low.
To round out this functionality you could also add that one line of code to let enemies and players move above and below each other (as projectiles and hitscan attacks already do), that way, the Pinkie could bite you if you're standing right on top of him, but not the Caco he's pissed at which are a few too many map units above.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 24 18:07:46 2022 No.8941715 >>8941609 It's clearly not a 3D engine, but it's also a little more than a 2D one. Some people call it 2.5D.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 24 18:10:11 2022 No.8941719 >>8941715 It's clearly a 3d engine. It contains data about all 3 dimensions.

Anonymous Tue May 24 18:19:25 2022 No.8941741

>>8941715
Yeah I think that's the best we can get.
>>8941664
So what you're saying is, the fact that the map is 2D can mess with how the enemies interact with each other unless the z-coordinate is strictly defined. And... They removed it?
>>8941719
>I personally disagree on calling a game that doesn't define 3D geometry via explicit x,y,z coordinates as being "true" 3D. It defines 3D geometry as a combination of vertexes (x,y coordinates), sectors (z-coordinate floors and ceilings) and linedefs (connecting the previous two). The fact they're all tied together through seperate processes is my reasoning for not defining the game strictly as being 3D, because all of those functions are a result of the 2D engine and how it renders space.

Anonymous Tue May 24 18:19:34 2022 No.8941742

>>8941719
It absolutely is not the same kind of 3D engine as we would later see on PCs or later consoles. Hell, even PS and SS were missing bits and pieces of "true" 3D engines but even those were lightyears ahead of what Doom was doing. It's a 2D engine with some extra stuff grafted on to make a quasi-3D experience.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 24 18:25:28 2022 No.8941764 >>8941741 The Z-Coordinate IS defined (otherwise nothing would work), it's just not accounted for with a few checks.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 24 18:39:11 2022 No.8941790 2.5D is a little too generous, Doom is more of a 2.25D game.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 24 21:05:47 2022 No.8942195 >>8941609 >doesn't define 3D geometry via explicit x,y,z coordinates as being "true" 3D It does, it just omits redundant data as a form of compression. It wouldn't suddenly be "more 3d" if it redundantly stored x,y and z for every vertex.

Anonymous Tue May 24 22:44:47 2022 No.8942410

>>8941764
I was talking about how they removed height checking for enemy melee attacks because it was breaking the game, which only seems to confirm my suspicions that the enemies could somehow see into the sectors they weren't on due to the inherent nature of the map being 2D. My guess is that having an enemy performing height checks on the sector the player is in would mean being able to temporarily see into that sector and possibly seeing the player, that slight instance of sight repeatedly happening could randomly cause an an enemy to attack, striking other nearby enemies and inciting NPC fighting. Just a guess.

That aside, height checking wouldn't break things if that height was defined in the geometry's vertices rather than broadly applying to entire rooms.
>>8942195
It's not a 3D map compressed into a 2D map, it's the other way around. It starts as a 2D map, then various sectors and linedefs determine the characteristics of height and lighting etc. The map data remains 2D the whole process
>It wouldn't suddenly be "more 3d" if it redundantly stored x,y and z for every vertex.
Sure it would, then you could have sloping planes and rooms above each other without any fancy tricks. Not to mention that accurate object rotation becomes trivial. Are you saying that Quake is not "more 3D" than Doom?

Anonymous Tue May 24 23:07:26 2022 No.8942460

>>8942410
>because it was breaking the game
But it wasn't "breaking the game", Doom v1.0 is perfectly playable, most people probably didn't even notice the change, it just occasionally leads to Pinkies accidentally biting other monsters, basically like the normal kind of infighting the game already has between other monsters, but they decided that the game would play better if Pinkies couldn't cause infighting.

A Pinkie accidentally biting another Pinkie and them proceeding to chew each other to death wasn't common, and if it happened, it didn't softlock the player or make something not work, a combat encounter just resolved itself in a quaint, but not even bizarre manner, because monster infighting is a well established concept.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 24 23:13:05 2022 No.8942468 Easy, the map is 2D, the game is 3D.

Anonymous Tue May 24 23:17:00 2022 No.8942472

>>8942460
>it wasn't "breaking the game",
>but they decided that the game would play better if Pinkies couldn't cause infighting.
Okay, so they changed it because it was causing an unintended outcome aka "breaking the game". This isn't even about the monsters, I'm asking why they would feel the need to add and then remove a feature utilizing z-coordinates if the engine reading those z-coordinates in addition to the 2D map data isn't affecting things negatively.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 24 23:18:43 2022 No.8942476 >>8933917 >rockets and projectiles can fly over you >b-but there's no height!

>>	Anonymous Tue May 24 23:19:19 2022 No.8942478 >>8942472 When a game performs larger/extra calculations, it runs slower and requires newer hardware to be played, so then fewer people can play it.

Anonymous Tue May 24 23:20:09 2022 No.8942482

>>8942468
Yeah. The map is flat, but you add height values to sectors to give them volume. You can't do room over room, but that's irrelevant, because that's not a defining feature of a three dimensional space, just A feature.

Even Wolfenstein 3D has a three dimensional world, it's limited, height is a non-factor because everything has the same height, but they're still three dimensional box shaped rooms you can move freely in.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 24 23:26:19 2022 No.8942490 >>8942482 If someone is looking for a defining feature of a 3d space, it would be that objects can hide behind other objects from the perspective of a 3d viewer.

Anonymous Tue May 24 23:27:03 2022 No.8942492

>>8932619
>>8931171
automatic aiming doesn't actually ensure a hit, ledges can still block shots and if you're too high shots will pass over enemies, vice versa is true as well.

>>8932939
The rendering has nothing to do with it. Doom is a 3d world with a rendering system that can only present everything relative to one horizon line, that doesn't stop it from being 3d

You're just wrong

>>	Anonymous Tue May 24 23:28:16 2022 No.8942494 >>8931319 >literally dimensional value for height >it's not 3d what did he mean by this?

Anonymous Tue May 24 23:36:59 2022 No.8942512

>>8942472
Because Doom was EXTREMELY expensive in terms of CPU power by the standards of December of 1993, the only reason the game was possible at all at this time period was the use of a novel optimization technique such as Binary Space Partitioning, which helps a ton, but memory and CPU power isn't infinite. A 486 was recommended for playing the game, but even then you would probably want to shrink the screen size by one or two points if you wanted more than 20 frames per second on average (consider that game logic and animations are timed to 35 refreshes per second, so even recommended hardware didn't give you that with full screen size). Low Detail Mode was basically mandatory for a 386.

They were looking to shave things all over to save on CPU time. Considering that the levels use verticality so very little, things like moving over a monster, or underneath a flying one, occurs so very seldom in the original levels that they figured it wasn't necessary to account for it, and they could trade it for performance. Simplified melee attack checks is another little thing which adds up, and make a number of small sacrifices like these and it'll add up to increased performance overall.

Come Heretic, using the same engine, Raven decides they want to have those things (along with things like flight and looking up and down), so they just add those couple of lines of code, figuring that 386 users can just cope and seethe.
Heretic works perfectly fine, the engine isn't struggling or falling apart at the seams or teeming with lots and lots of unintended behavior because of these things, so the only conclusion possible is that Doom's engine can do all of these things if you tell it to, and if you provide it with the hardware power it'll do it at 35 frames per second.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 24 23:37:54 2022 No.8942513 >>8931319 It's good that he kys'd himself.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 24 23:38:50 2022 No.8942515 >>8942490 Certainly possible in Wolfenstein 3D, Doom, Rise Of The Triad, Heretic, Hexen, Strife, etc, etc.

>>	Anonymous Tue May 24 23:43:35 2022 No.8942531 >>8942515 All 3d games.

Anonymous Tue May 24 23:45:41 2022 No.8942537

>>8942492
>automatic aiming doesn't actually ensure a hit,
Correct, it doesn't automatically make your shots hit the target, all that Doom's vertical auto-aim does is angle your attacks upwards or downwards towards the target, whether or not it'll hit is another matter.

This can be demonstrated extremely easily, if a Caco comes flying towards you 256 map units above, your shots will be directed upwards to him, but ONLY if he's within 1024 map units of distance, as the player's vertical auto-aim only reaches that far.
If you are 2048 map units away, your bullets and rockets will instead go straight forward, sailing underneath the Cacodemon like he isn't there, and that's because he actually isn't, as he's above their path.

If a Lost Soul is charging towards a Zombie that upset him, he's going real fast, and if you shoot at the right (wrong) moment as he passes in front of you, your rocket will fly towards that height, but the Lost Soul has already long since left that spot, so the rocket continues on its merry way, up into the sky or ceiling. Auto-aim directed it, but you have the time to score the hit.

Anonymous Tue May 24 23:59:13 2022 No.8942572
File: 46 KB, 540x405, tumblr_inline_p3tkbwWij01r043rx_540.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>8942531
Exactly. Random picture from my folder depicting a three dimensional space which Doom, and even Wolfenstein 3D, could functionally recreate, and without any kind of changes to the code.

Anonymous Wed May 25 00:22:01 2022 No.8942621

>>8942478
Which is why they made Doom when they did, rather than making Quake so to speak.
>>8942482
>>8942492
>>8942515
>Adding depth to a 2D map makes the map 3D
The render is not the map, it is your view of it. The map is still processing 2D information, with the z-coordinate effectively being placed on top. I'm aware rendering 3D space in a 2D engine is possible by applying that third parameter, and yet it's still a 2D engine. Why do you think they digitized their character models into 2D sprites instead of rendering 3D character models? They could have had characters show up like Alone in the Dark. That totally wouldn't have sucked.

Anonymous Wed May 25 00:28:55 2022 No.8942628

>>8942621
>Adding depth to a 2D map makes the map 3D
>Literally adding an additional dimension to something that already has 2 dimensions.

>z-coordinate placed on top
>Literally adding an additional dimension to something that already has 2 dimensions.

Anonymous Wed May 25 00:34:00 2022 No.8942646

>>8941609

pl = actor->target;
dist = P_AproxDistance (pl->x-actor->x, pl->y-actor->y);

if (dist >= MELEERANGE-20*FRACUNIT+pl->info->radius)
return false;

This is the code which handles melee range. z is not used when calculating distance between the objects, the point is, the distance check has exactly nothing to do with the map being 2d as it never even queries the map, each object has a z coordinate so you could write additional code to include z.

Anonymous Wed May 25 00:34:04 2022 No.8942647

>>8942410
If I was trying to be as precise as possible, I'd say that doom can simulate a subset of the 3d spaces that quake can simulate.

Quake can render doom maps, but it wouldn't make them any more 3d if you did so.

What I'm arguing is that the particular representation of data doesn't change what the data fundamentally means.

Anyway, this is kinda getting pointless and there are better uses for my time, so I hope you have a nice day.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 00:35:25 2022 No.8942649 >>8942647 The data already includes information for height, width, and depth.

Anonymous Wed May 25 00:35:33 2022 No.8942650

>>8942628
>The render is not the map, it is your view of it.
>The map is still processing 2D information
>the z-coordinate effectively being placed on top.
>I'm aware rendering 3D space in a 2D engine is possible by applying that third parameter
>it's still a 2D engine.
Does that format make it easier for you?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 00:38:15 2022 No.8942654 >>8942650 z-coordinate is literally the 3rd dimension. A 2-dimensional map would not have included information about platform height.

Anonymous Wed May 25 00:44:33 2022 No.8942662

>>8942646
It clearly checks relative x,y position, which is attributed to the map. Maps have x,y positions
>Adding depth gives it depth
I know, in the render. The map itself retains its dimensions.
>>8942647
Doom can't render Quake maps because Quake has a proper 3D engine.
>>8942654
Topography

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 00:50:04 2022 No.8942673 > 3 dimensions of data in the level maps. > 3 dimensions of positioning for objects in-game. > Characters moving in 3 dimensions. Such a 2d game.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 01:13:28 2022 No.8942723 >>8942673 >engine running 2D map data with z-coordinates taped on >also no jumping The engine

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 01:14:00 2022 No.8942726 >>8942662 >Doom can't render Quake maps because Quake has a proper 3D engine. I did not say that it could, however, you could easily create quake maps that could be losslessly converted into doom maps. Obvious, only a subset of quake maps.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 01:15:10 2022 No.8942728 >>8942723 >2D map data with z-coordinates That would literally be 3d. You blatantly describe 3d, and then act like you can't see it. x-coordinates + y-coordinates + z-coordinates

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 01:16:17 2022 No.8942732 >>8942723 There's no jumping because it isn't added, Heretic, Hexen, and Strife have jumping, and the Arch-Vile in Doom 2 sending you flying up into the air can be used as a jump.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 01:16:54 2022 No.8942735 >>8942723 Gravity pulls you down.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 01:17:54 2022 No.8942741 >>8942723 You walk up stairs and ride elevators.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 01:20:38 2022 No.8942752 >>8942723 The Cyberdemon doesn't fit through a door opening that's only 96 map units tall.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 01:22:53 2022 No.8942760 >>8942723 > also no jumping Artistic choice, could be added with a few lines of code, has nothing to do with the engine.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 01:29:42 2022 No.8942780 >>8942726 obviously*

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 01:30:01 2022 No.8942782 File: 138 KB, 1280x720, 96585E04-D38C-4DC6-9BAD-4D9E53B2ED02.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >NOOOOOO 3D GAMES DON’T HAVE 2D GRAPHICS How about opening a 3D engine sometime?

Anonymous Wed May 25 01:54:38 2022 No.8942832

>>8942726
The point is how Doom is less complex, this lack of complexity is due to reading 2D map data. Speaking of which
>>8942728
(x,y) and (z), not (x,y,z). The engine isn't processing 3D geometry, it's slicing off sections of a 2D map with the render (and you) not knowing the difference
>>8942732
>>8942735
>>8942741
>>8942752
These are all effects of the z-coordinates, very observant you guys. The engine and its maps are still 2D
>>8942760
You're right, the fact it was left out communicates how 2D the engine is.

>projectiles-
Are sprites and not 3D objects because the engine is 2D. The engine.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 01:57:11 2022 No.8942843 >>8942832 >The engine and its maps are still 2D >Map includes z dimension... >Engine accounts for z dimension movement and interactions... So what you're saying is, that you have no idea what 2d actually is.

Anonymous Wed May 25 02:05:32 2022 No.8942857
File: 68 KB, 600x600, 1613943568043.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>8942843
>it's slicing off sections of a 2D map with the render (and you) not knowing the difference
You really aren't trying to pay attention because you're certain you're right, and all you're doing is conceding by failing to actually oppose what I'm saying. Yes, the map has z-coordinates drawn on it. That doesn't make the map 3D. It's still a 2D map, it's still 2D data, the engine is still 2D.

Anonymous Wed May 25 02:17:57 2022 No.8942884

>>8942857
>Yes, the map has z-coordinates drawn on it.
That is the literal definition of a dimension of height. It's made of the same zeroes and ones of the other dimensions. Stored on the same map. Every single millimeter of horizontal space on the map also has a position of height. Your claim of the map being 2d is simply demonstrably false.

>the engine is still 2D
Over and over you've been shown how the various mechanics of the game account for all 3 dimensions. Yet again, your claim as been demonstrated as false.

None of your claims have held any water.

The ONLY way you could prove that the map was 2d is to prove that it held no values whatsoever about the 3rd dimension. You are not able to do that, because the data is right there. It has the value. It has the dimension.

The ONLY way that you could prove the engine was 2d, is to prove that it was completely impossible for the value of height could be used in any way. So far the opposite has been shown. You are not able to do that, because it has been demonstrated that objects, characters, projectiles, and the environment do in fact use the value of height.

There is nothing left of your claim. Nothing.

Anonymous Wed May 25 03:10:31 2022 No.8942998
File: 45 KB, 900x431, 3-d_view_v3.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>8942884
Says you. Topographic maps are representations of 3D data, I'm not denying the engine's ability to render 3D images from those 2D maps.

The map is still 2D. Which is what the engine is processing. I have yet to see a convincing argument Doom is processing 3D geometry beyond the approximation that the game's raycasting allows.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 04:23:39 2022 No.8943076 File: 38 KB, 499x338, this guy is a fucking idiot.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >Topographic maps are representations of 3D data >I'm not denying the engine's ability to render 3D images from those 2D maps. >The map is still 2D.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 04:30:12 2022 No.8943089 File: 71 KB, 500x430, artworks-000363223767-ti385d-t500x500~2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>8943076 You have conceded by failure of opposition, project harder

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 04:32:03 2022 No.8943093 >>8943089 you fail to even make a coherent point u fucking loser.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 04:36:26 2022 No.8943101 File: 53 KB, 640x480, F1Y9QqEXbpq5y9s_RlEn7UiKF7aBc29dg-4GifEDzUo.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>8943093 Comprehend this

Anonymous Wed May 25 04:39:32 2022 No.8943103

>>8943089
Why the fuck would the FORMAT of the map data itself be relevant at all if you admit that it's rendered as three dimensional? The map data could be a bigass crate of old fucking waxed punch cards for what it matters if the resulting rendered world is three dimensional.
Kill yourself with your dad's second hand dragon dildo, you useless retard.

Anonymous Wed May 25 05:01:14 2022 No.8943150
File: 46 KB, 397x520, 1619762791904.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>8943103
Because if the map data isn't formatted properly, the engine can't read it! Those wax cards would contain... 2D map data! Because that's what the original Doom engine runs on.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 05:05:17 2022 No.8943158 File: 557 KB, 857x516, theguys.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>8933717 that pic takes me back to the good old days.

Anonymous Wed May 25 07:16:32 2022 No.8943382

>>8941741
>I personally disagree on calling a game that doesn't define 3D geometry via explicit x,y,z coordinates
This rules out a whole boatload of non-retro 3D games that use heighmaps for terrain data, or displacement maps for non-collidable surfaces.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 07:21:06 2022 No.8943393 >>8941741 >>8943382 Further to this, what about bump-maps and other texture-space tricks? Do they make a game not "real" 3D, since 3D data has been simplified and encoded as a 2D texture?

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 07:49:40 2022 No.8943439 >>8943393 Yes.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 08:08:24 2022 No.8943464 >>8928079 Is it rendering 3D models in real time as they player moves? If yes: 3D If no: 3D effect. Simple.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 11:07:24 2022 No.8943810 >>8943464 It is.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 11:10:36 2022 No.8943821 File: 4 KB, 639x480, canon_warning.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>8943439 Okay this I can get behind. Doom 3 is not 3D, it's just 2D with tricks.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 11:13:37 2022 No.8943840 File: 56 KB, 385x385, tangentspace.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] (DO NOT RESEARCH)

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 11:14:22 2022 No.8943846 >>8942998 >Raycasting Doom is not a raycaster, you’ve been told this already. It’s a sector based renderer optimized with BSP.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 12:52:31 2022 No.8944205 >>8942621 The tech wasn't there to support models yet without boosting the min requirements Doom is definitely 3d, it doesn't matter if it's initially 2d, the rendering is a projection from 2 to 3 dimensions.

Anonymous Wed May 25 13:22:46 2022 No.8944307

>>8944205
>The render is not the map, it is your view of it. The map is still processing 2D information
Doom does two kinds of projection. There's a "2D" projection where a ray is fired out until it hits a linedef and then the height data is used to determine the colour of the pixel through some clever interpolation. This is a clever optimisation for rendering. The render is not the map and it's not reality by your own logic.
There's another 3D cast used for object collision and movement that takes into account a 3D box of height, width and breadth and its x,y,z position. This uses an extrapolated 3D representation of the map because the 2D cast is not good enough to determine if a 3D box collided with the edge or just missed it.

Similarly just because a Quake map appears in 3D in your editor doesn't mean it's 3D by the engine's viewpoint. Many operations in Quake are optimised to 2D and then fine tuned in 3D if needs be. The line of sight code is very 2D most of the time.

You can bullshit an explanation when you argue from the conclusion, this doesn't make you right.

Anonymous Wed May 25 13:25:59 2022 No.8944319

Wolfenstein 3D is ironically a fully 2D game. Doom is a bit more than that but not fully 3D. It's part of the transition period. People go back and forth because it can't be simplified either way. It's more of a sliding scale from 2D to 3D. Even PlayStation is a 3D console but it's missing some calculations for preceise 3D, thus it's like 98% of the way to 3D. N64 and Quake is full 3D.

Anonymous Wed May 25 13:29:10 2022 No.8944332

Duke3D also does 3D tracking of objects in 3D space however people get confused by the motion of 3D objects and believe it's because it's a "hack" on a 2D game. It's not. It's because the rendering technique used is only mostly correct for the camera looking directly ahead. When you look up and down in Duke it's not a yaw movement, it's a "dolly" up and down a very tall screen. This makes the projection more and more wrong the more up or down you look. This causes you to miss your shots because the tracking and expected path a shot takes becomes warped and appears to curve around an object because it's tracking in 3D space but you cannot see in straight lines due to the warping of the incorrect perspective. Modern build ports have perspective correct yaw movement of the camera and it's much more natural to aim without changing ANYTHING else about the engine.

Anonymous Wed May 25 13:45:58 2022 No.8944383

>>8942832
I know the difference, I have made my own engines from scratch and posted one in this thread. My argument is that you are conflating representation with meaning.

If quake stored the 3d coordinate of every vertex in a separate array, it wouldn't suddenly be 2D, but that is effectively what you see arguing.

Anonymous Wed May 25 13:54:17 2022 No.8944412

>>8944307
To be very pedantic, doom does not use raycasting in its rendering.

It does a front to back traversal of a bsp tree (with frustum-to-bsp-node-bounding-box checks to avoid processing the entire map each frame). It transforms each wall in each node (aka a convex subsector) into camera space, and then projects it into screen space, similar to, yet simpler than a modern renderer. With each wall coordinate in screen space, it linearly interpolates the top and bottom of the walls left to right, and then draws vertical columns between the top and bottom lines.
Vertical lines are used because the walls are perfectly vertical, which means they are constant depth, and perfectly linear in texture space, which means no perspective division, and no complicated texture address calculation needs to be done per pixel.

Floors/ceilings are different and a little complicated, they are a sort of vertical flood fill from the bottom and top of each wall, converted into horizontal lines for more constant depth optimizations, quite like 3d mode 7 effects in snes games. Because there is an intermediate data structure here, horizontal "visplanes", an optimization is used to merge visplanes to reduce memory costs. This used linear searches through arrays, and hence Carmack limited the number of visplanes to cap the cost of this algorithm, leading to visplane overflows if you weren't careful.

Anonymous Wed May 25 14:17:23 2022 No.8944489
File: 75 KB, 621x621, 1650904824427.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>8942572
And any actors in that space would be able to pass above and below each other, which they can't in Doom. Hell, that room exists above and below tings in our fully 3D world. You're also shooting your own argument in the foot by pointing out that Wolfenstein 3D simulates the same thing, nobody who knows anything tries to argue that game is 3D, but all the sudden Doom can simulate height for geography and line of fire, but not depth, and people think it's magic. Elements of 3D are in Doom, but it is not 3D, similar to how a painter can simulate light on canvas.
Just because something looks 3D doesn't mean it is. You have been FOOLED.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 14:25:15 2022 No.8944521 >>8944489 Doom does take into account depth for various effects, for example sound, as well as depth based lighting.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 14:36:18 2022 No.8944564 >>8944521 I mean hell, even texture mapping takes into account depth of the wall columns and floor/ceiling rows.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 14:51:58 2022 No.8944638 >>8944489 Moving behind an object is physically the same act as moving over or under it. In a 2d space, the front, back, sides, and interior, would all be visible at all times to the 3d observer.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 17:33:56 2022 No.8945194 >you have infinite height but cannot jump

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 17:36:54 2022 No.8945208 >>8944489 Illustrators get semi trucks wrong almost as often and almost as badly as bicycles. It's kinda funny.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 17:44:14 2022 No.8945236 >>8945194 You don't have infinite height; Shots go over your head. Even without a jump button, you still move up and down with stairs and lifts.

Anonymous Wed May 25 18:03:54 2022 No.8945294

>>8943382
>>8943393
That I would call 2.5D
>>8943846
It uses both. It uses BSP to determine the order of what sectors get raycasted. BSP isn't a form of rendering. Neither is the incredibly vague "sector based renderer". That renderer uses raycasting, being sorted by BSP. You have yet to refute this
>>8944205
That means it's a 3D illusion buddy
>>8944383
What I'm effectively arguing is how the x,y map is of much greater consequence to the gameplay then the z-coordinates are, even without z-coordinates you would still have the appearance of 3D a la Wolf3D, and by adding them you aren't changing how the engine is processing a 2D map.
>If quake stored the 3d coordinate of every vertex in a separate array, it wouldn't suddenly be 2D, but that is effectively what you see arguing.
You'd be running it in Quake, which has a proper 3D engine. Despite that, the Quake engine is rendering 3D characters and level objects, but the map itself is actually formatted like Doom>>8944307
Speaking of which, *are. You're a programmer dude, do one cursory spellcheck before posting. C'mon man.
>>8944412
Adding BSP sorting to a raycasting process would make it BSP raycasting. Furthermore I have trouble calling it raytracing because you're not reflecting light off the environment from a single source, each sector is given its own light data which is communicated to your POV.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 18:52:47 2022 No.8945381 Looking at this thread top to bottom, there seems to be overwhelming evidence and examples of how Doom is 3d, but nobody providing any evidence to refute it.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 18:58:09 2022 No.8945394 Ignoring the evidence to the contrary is effectively conceding

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 19:23:26 2022 No.8945449 >>8933369 >Doom rendered a "3D-looking" environment from a 2D map. what does the 2d map have to do with anything are all games that use heightmaps 2d now

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 19:28:22 2022 No.8945463 >>8945449 It's pretty much a no sequitur.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 19:35:46 2022 No.8945487 >>8945449 If it uses 3D mesh data, no

Anonymous Wed May 25 20:03:10 2022 No.8945543

>>8945294
>It uses both. It uses BSP to determine the order of what sectors get raycasted. BSP isn't a form of rendering. Neither is the incredibly vague "sector based renderer". That renderer uses raycasting, being sorted by BSP. You have yet to refute this

No, it does not use raycasting. Raycasting is an image-order process, where you start from typically either screen columns/scanlines or pixels, and convert them into world-space rays to intersect with geometry.

Doom uses an object-based algorithm which is fundamentally different because it works in the opposite direction.
I'm pretty sure I've spoken to you on this before at some point, and I am getting tired of it, so I will walk through the relevant code with you, because you have not read it yourself.

The main render function in doom is R_RenderPlayerView, at line 870 in d_main.c
On line 884, it calls "R_RenderBSPNode", with the argument -1, meaning render from the root bsp node.

On lines 889 and 894, it calls R_DrawPlanes (for drawing floors and ceilings), and R_DrawMasked (for drawing enemies, objects, and certain special types of walls). Thhey are secondary for the purposes of rendering world geometry, so I won't go into the details of those functions.

We will focus on R_RenderBSPNode. This is defined in r_bsp.c at line 552.
This function checks if the current node passed is a subsector, in which case it calls R_Subsector with it.
If it is not a subsector, it determines which side of the bsp splitting plane the camera is on, and with that information, recursively calls R_RenderBSPNode with the near node, and then the far node, in that order.

It also does a bounding box check for the far node against the viewing frustum, to see if it is entirely off-screen and can be skipped.

Note that, so far, we have no rays being calculated, casted, or checked for collision against world geometry.

Continuing in a second post.

Anonymous Wed May 25 20:04:17 2022 No.8945547

>>8945543
Continuing on, we have R_Subsector defined at line 497, also in r_bsp.c
R_Subsector stores information about the sector in some global variables for use in other functions, and searches for or allocates visplanes, if necessary, for the floor and ceiling in R_FindPlane. This is a simple search based on the floor/ceiling texture, height, and light level. If those match another visplane, it may be possible to reuse it. If not, it tries to allocate a visplane.

On line 535, R_Subsector calls R_AddSprites to add the sprites in this subsector to a list for processing later, and then calls R_AddLine on each wall in the subsector to a separate list for processing later.

Note, still no raycasting.

Defined on line 259, R_AddLine is a bit more complicated, but what it is doing is transforming walls into polar coordinates via R_PointToAngle on line 271, and further transforming those angles into screen-space x coordinates via the viewangletox lookup table on line 313, clipping them according to walls that are already in the draw list via R_ClipPassWallSegment (for portals) and R_ClipSolidWallSegment (for solid walls) on line 351.

R_ClipSolidWallSegment and R_ClipPassWallSegment are not exactly the same, but are similar, they handle clipping walls against walls that were previously drawn, and calling R_StoreWallRange to store the clipped segments and draw them.

Continuing in a third post.

Anonymous Wed May 25 20:05:26 2022 No.8945550

>>8945547

R_StoreWallRange is defined in r_segs.c on line 370.
This is another complicated function, calculating the distance to vertexes, the scale of both sides of the wall, the amount to increase the scale and distance for each screen column, as well as how much to step the top and bottom up the wall up or down, for each screen column. There is a bunch of logic here to for y clipping for portals as well.

Eventually R_StoreWallRange calls R_RenderSegLoop, defined on line 206, which is the actual wall drawing function.
For each screen column covered by a wall, is determines
- the texture column (note that this takes into account distance, on line 266
- the lighting colormap, which takes into account wall scale, which is inverse of the distance.
Then it calls "colfunc", which is a function pointer pointing to one of a couple possible functions which scale and clip a texture column to the framebuffer.
Then it increments top and bottom y coords, as well as the scale of the wall, to continue to the next screen column.

Continued in a fourth post.

Anonymous Wed May 25 20:06:31 2022 No.8945556 [DELETED]

>>8945550

The way a raycaster works is by taking a screen-space element, such as a screen column, a pixel, or perhaps a horizontal scanline, converting it to a vector in world-space according to the camera fov, then following the ray through the world until it collides with geometry. At that point, it needs to convert the collision point into texture space to determine texture UV coords.

Doom does not iterate over screen pixels, columns or lines before rendering, it iterates over walls first.
Doom does not convert rays in world-space to collide with geometry, it does the reverse, transforming walls into screen-space via perspective projection.

I would greatly appreciate if you could point out where, with actual lines of code, any rays are calculated for the purpose of rendering in doom. No more vague, oh it it "raycasts through a bsp tree", even though that would be literally retarded and and cause tons of redundant bsp traversals, throwing away most of the benefit the bsp was supposed to provide in the first place . I would be very surprised that I have not seen it, since I have read through the entire rendering pipeline of doom on several occasions.

>Speaking of which, *are. You're a programmer dude, do one cursory spellcheck before posting. C'mon man.

I typed that out on my phone which autocorrected, and I didn't get a ton of sleep last night. It's irrelevant.

Anonymous Wed May 25 20:08:49 2022 No.8945563

>>8945550

The way a raycaster works is by taking a screen-space element, such as a screen column, a pixel, or perhaps a horizontal scanline, converting it to a vector in world-space according to the camera fov, then following the ray through the world until it collides with geometry. At that point, it needs to convert the collision point into texture space to determine texture UV coords.

Doom does not iterate over screen pixels, columns or lines before rendering, it iterates over walls.
Doom does not convert rays to vectors in world-space to collide with geometry, it does the reverse, transforming walls into screen-space via perspective projection.

I would greatly appreciate if you could point out where, with actual lines of code, any rays are calculated for the purpose of rendering in doom. No more vague, oh it "raycasts through a bsp tree", even though that would be literally retarded and and cause tons of redundant bsp traversals, throwing away most of the benefit the bsp was supposed to provide in the first place . I would be very surprised that I have not seen, since I have read through the entire rendering pipeline of doom on several occasions.

>Speaking of which, *are. You're a programmer dude, do one cursory spellcheck before posting. C'mon man.

I typed that out on my phone which autocorrected, and I didn't get a ton of sleep last night. It's irrelevant.

I probably made some spelling errors here as well, I just got a new keyboard and I'm still getting used to it.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 20:43:57 2022 No.8945668 >>8936082 Not the anon you’re arguing with, but height isn’t a programmed factor there, it’s just a one way movement.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 20:47:26 2022 No.8945678 >>8929359 That's just one of many raster methods, still 3D.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 20:50:30 2022 No.8945686 >>8945563 John, stop browsing 4chan and get id back into order. please and thank you.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 20:53:30 2022 No.8945701 >>8945678 Truth

Anonymous Wed May 25 20:55:49 2022 No.8945703

>>8943846
BSP is space partitioning. Other methods include portals. Raycasting is a raster method. It's not the same.
Doom does not do raycasting, but it is perfectly possible to do raycasting + BSP. In such a scheme, you would only query for objects in the BSP tiles that match the view. This, of course, is not what Doom does, though.

>>	Anonymous Wed May 25 20:59:16 2022 No.8945710 >>8945678 Even with 3d graphics, there is probably a legitimate argument that the physics in wolf3d doesn't take advantage of more than 2 dimensions. Unlike Doom, which uses all 3 dimensions.

Anonymous Wed May 25 21:02:32 2022 No.8945718

>>8945710
This is the 3rd dimension (haha) of the issue: there is the representation, the logic, and the data. Data and logic can be 3D while being represented in 1D, such as in a MUD. Or likewise but with 2D logic.
You argue that wolf3d (in this case) has 2d logic, and we know the data is 2d, but that doesn't mean the representation isn't 3d.

Anonymous Wed May 25 21:12:28 2022 No.8945742

>>8945718
In the representation of Wolf3d, there exists a calculation that allows the ceilings and floors to meet up with the walls in a way that let's the player infer distance. That's enough to give the player the use of a 3d perspective, even if travel will never extend more than 2 ways.

Anonymous Wed May 25 22:39:56 2022 No.8945925

>>8944412
>leading to visplane overflows if you weren't careful.
It should be noted just for posterity that no map in Doom or Doom 2 comes even close to hitting the visplane limit. Visplanes were kept down simply for speed, you'd get horrible slowdown on machines of the day before you'd get anywhere close to hitting those limits, and levels made in 1994 which were right at it would not be playable on most machines of the day.

TNT and Plutonia exceeded the original visplane limit in places, which is why they used a modified port which allowed for more of them, and hardware was generally a lot beefier by 1996 allowing for more 'extreme' level design.
Source ports (beginning their lives in 1997 after John Carmack published the source code), all typically raise the visplane limit and the other static limits to the sky, so that you can effectively go as nuts as you want, with only your hardware being the limit.

Anonymous Wed May 25 23:09:51 2022 No.8945979

>>8945925
Yep, for sure. And no doubt carmack told the map designers the limitations of the engine.
The visplane limit was raised in source ports, but a key point is that the linear-time array search was replaced with a hashtable, which scales much better.

Anonymous Wed May 25 23:14:17 2022 No.8945983

>>8945543
>It's not raycasting because it works in the opposite direction
The game uses BSP to determine the order of faces to draw, calculates the faces' dimensions and then draws them. The only way for this to happen is by scanning, or "searching", or "querying", the ordered nodes around the player. This is why I colloquially call this process "BSP raycasting". It renders each node in sequence with raycasting.
>>8945563
>point out where
You already did; It's in the render which I've been saying this whole time
>R_StoreWallRange is defined in r_segs.c on line 370.
>This is another complicated function, calculating the distance to vertexes, the scale of both sides of the wall, the amount to increase the scale and distance for each screen column, as well as how much to step the top and bottom up the wall up or down, for each screen column. There is a bunch of logic here to for y clipping for portals as well.
>Eventually R_StoreWallRange calls R_RenderSegLoop, defined on line 206, which is the actual wall drawing function.
>For each screen column covered by a wall, it* determines
> - the texture column (note that this takes into account distance, on line 266)*
> - the lighting colormap, which takes into account wall scale, which is inverse of the distance.
>Then it calls "colfunc", which is a function pointer pointing to one of a couple possible functions which scale and clip a texture column to the framebuffer.
>Then it increments top and bottom y coords, as well as the scale of the wall, to continue to the next screen column.

All you did was describe how a raycasting engine would render a wall, and then declare victory by saying
>Doom does not iterate over screen pixels, columns or lines before rendering, it iterates over walls.
Those walls are being rendered in columns, anon!
That was a part of your definition of raycasting at the start!
By saying things like
>redundant bsp traversals
You're clearly treating BSP raycasting as regular raycasting. Maybe sleep more?

Anonymous Wed May 25 23:49:47 2022 No.8946043

>>8945983
I think you just have a fundamental disagreement with me (and everybody else who has written a raycaster or really any kind of renderer at all) on what raycasting is, and what image-order vs object-order rendering is.

An image-order renderer, such as raycasting, starts with image-space elements, such as columns, and ends with geometry in world-space.

And object-order renderer, such as in doom, starts with world geometry, and ends with screen space.

I really don't understand how anyone can have such difficulty in understanding this.
Do you have a low iq?
If it is bait, I suppose it has worked.

If you want to call X Y, I don't really care, but just know that everybody else calls X X, and Y Y.

>Those walls are being rendered in columns, anon!
>That was a part of your definition of raycasting at the start!
No, you are illiterate.
It is not about the way in which a wall is rasterized. A modern gpu renders polygons with horizontal scanlines, but it could render with vertical columns and it wouldn't suddenly become a raycaster.

// image order

for(int x = 0; x < screen_width; x++) {
ray r = calculate_ray_for_column(x);
for(int j = 0; j < num_objects; j++) {
if(ray_intersects(r, objects[j]) {
// pretend objects are sorted in near-to-far z order
render_column(x, object[j]);
}
}
}

// object order

for(int i = 0; i < num_walls; i++) {
wall w = world_walls[i];
screen_space_wall sw = transform_to_screen_space(w);
for(int x = sw.left_x; x < sw.right_x; x++) {
render_column(x, sw);
}
}

There is a fundamental difference between these two. If you cannot understand this, you really ought to kill yourself.
I suppose posting bait on 4chan for the rest of your life about how doom is a raycaster is about the same.

Anonymous Thu May 26 00:50:33 2022 No.8946118

>>8946043
Because you think I'm only talking about raycasting, because you're projecting about being an illiterate retard. You can write endless amounts of code but simple semantics escape you.

Raycasting by itself is image-order as you said. Sequential, linear, whatever. It scans across the map and onto the POV.

BSP raycasting is object-order, where the nodes are ordered by relevance first and then they're scanned and rendered in that order. It's effectively shuffling the linear rendering into non linear rendering for sake of efficiency. That said, the process of scanning and rendering the nodes after they're ordered is akin to regular raycasting (as denoted by R_StoreWallRange and R_RenderSegLoop). No amount of denial and foot stomping will change that
>It is not about the way in which a wall is rasterized
Sure it is. Are you going to explain how R_StoreWallRange and R_RenderSegLoop aren't rasterizing the wall rather than citing more code and saying "it's BSP". It's both my man. BSP to sort and raycasting to render. Not hard to understand

Anonymous Thu May 26 01:00:42 2022 No.8946134

>>8946118

>BSP raycasting is object-order, where the nodes are ordered by relevance first and then they're scanned and rendered in that order.

You are correct that what is happening in doom is object order. But there is no raycasting.
There are no rays.
There is no calculation of what objects in the world collide with what rays.

Every source I have ever read in my entire life has stated that raycasting is an image-order algorithm.
However, I do not need source to know such a thing, because it is obvious by the definition of image-order rendering.

In your next post, please affix the names of the source files and lines on which rays are calculated and collisions with the environment are determined.

Anonymous Thu May 26 01:08:48 2022 No.8946148

>>8946134
>>8946118
To clarify, you clearly know what you are talking about in practical terms, but you have a stange idea that raycasting means rendering with columns.
You are simply conflating an optimization (constant-depth vertical columns) with the fundamentals of the algorithm.

I suggest reading more of the 80s and 90s rendering literature to educate yourself.

Alternatively, write some graphics engines, because there is no way you can maintain such an understanding with practical work in graphics.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 01:16:42 2022 No.8946157 >>8932203 Pretty much everyone playing it uses a source port these days, most of those actually make the game 3d, so it basically is at this point.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 01:17:16 2022 No.8946160 >>8946157 It always was 3d.

Anonymous Thu May 26 01:21:57 2022 No.8946168

>>8932203
doom does not use raycasting..
it is fundamentally different from raycasting engines, and anybody who thinks otherwise is either completely ignorant (most normies), or some sort of schizo who disagrees on the definition of basic 3d rendering terminology.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 01:28:48 2022 No.8946174 >>8946168 Wouldn't make a difference if it did. Raycasting is the 3D part of Wolfenstein 3D. By itself, it would not cause anything to not be 3d. It would not force nor prevent a game from behaving in a 3D manner.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 01:37:00 2022 No.8946184 >>8946174 I agree, certain people here are fascinated with how a certain rendering technology makes a game 2D or 3D but it'ss most irrelevant

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 01:43:27 2022 No.8946197 >>8946174 I agree, certain people here are fascinated with how a certain rendering technology makes a game 2D or 3D but it's mostly irrelevant

Anonymous Thu May 26 02:25:24 2022 No.8946262
File: 23 KB, 381x261, Doom_64_box.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Why do people complain about Doom 3 being a horror game out of nowhere when Doom 64 is so dark you can't see through half the levels? And it's not just emulator settings, you get light amplifier goggles in the 2nd map so clearly the game was meant to be dark as shit

Anonymous Thu May 26 03:35:40 2022 No.8946374

>>8946134
>There is no calculation of what objects in the world collide with what rays.

>R_StoreWallRange is defined in r_segs.c on line 370.
>This is another complicated function, calculating
>the distance to vertexes, (!!)
>the scale of both sides of the wall, the amount to increase the scale and distance for each screen column, as well as how much to step the top and bottom up the wall up or down, for each screen column.
R_StoreWallRange is calculating distance to specific vertices relative to the player, which is akin to how raycasting will measure the distance to a wall before drawing it. Speaking of which,
>R_RenderSegLoop, defined on line 206, which is the actual wall drawing function.
This renders the information from that calculation, and in a manner strikingly similar to raycasting. Which is why I called it BSP raycasting, it's effectively a series of smaller raycasting processes sorted by BSP.
>Every source I have ever read in my entire life has stated that raycasting is an image-order algorithm.
Probably because they were strictly referring to raycasting. This is why I've been saying BSP raycasting, it's a modification of the original term of raycasting to be affected by BSP.

If you are THAT offended at the premise of the term, feel free to just say BSP rendering. Just don't get sore when someone mentions how it was created from raycasting and that the name should reflect that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_casting#Ray_casting_in_early_computer_games
>Later DOS games like id Software's DOOM kept many of the raycasting 2.5D restrictions for speed but went on to switch to alternative rendering techniques (like BSP), making them no longer raycasting engines.

So all you did really by explaining the BSP and render process is show how Doom processes 2D map data into a 3D effect. I never cared if it was called raycasting, or BSP rendering, or BSP raycasting. I just wanted to show the engine uses 2D data. Thanks

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 03:45:11 2022 No.8946401 >>8943840 How are you able to post 3D images, anon??

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 05:43:47 2022 No.8946560 File: 119 KB, 630x630, 1526347299323.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] This is a very entertaining and informative thread, A+.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 06:45:01 2022 No.8946640 >>8946262 never had this problem. correct TV settings and turning brightness all the way up in the game menu and I can see just fine. please shut the fuck up and stop spreading this lie you retarded assbaby

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 07:04:39 2022 No.8946665 >>8928079 >>8928079 >>8928079 Doom (93) has no verticality.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 07:21:14 2022 No.8946692 >>8946640 ..you literally get nvgs in the 2nd level because it's so dark. Maybe you shouldn't post anymore ; )

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 10:22:51 2022 No.8947031 >>8944489 >And any actors in that space would be able to pass above and below each other, which they can't in Doom. Actors such as projectiles pass above and below players and monsters all the time in Doom, don't be a fucking retard.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 10:44:14 2022 No.8947087 >>8947031 Projectiles aren't actors. Don't be clinically retarded.

Anonymous Thu May 26 10:51:51 2022 No.8947116 [DELETED]

>>8932696
>injecting politics in a thread that has 0 politics in it
You leftists are beyond broken.

And since I just came to the thread and I've coded CG software during my life I'll solve the thread for everybody.
A mathematical object is 3D when the 3rd dimension is defined. Doom has it's objects defined in 2D.
I hope this ends the thread.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 10:54:21 2022 No.8947118 >>8947116 more like throwing a classic bait that generates guaranteed (you)s, just don't respond

Anonymous Thu May 26 11:36:45 2022 No.8947223

>>8946374
>R_StoreWallRange is calculating distance to specific vertices relative to the player, which is akin to how raycasting will measure the distance to a wall before drawing it

Calculating distance to a point is not the fundamental part of raycasting, its casting rays into an environment, it's literally where the term comes from.

>This renders the information from that calculation, and in a manner strikingly similar to raycasting.

Yes, this is the confusion you have. Raycasting is not about how polygons are rasterized. You can raycast individual pixels instead of screen columns, in which case there is no rasterization whatsoever.
Vertical rasterization is literally the same thing as scanline rasterization, just with columns. All 3d renderers at the time used the same kind of loop.

>Just don't get sore when someone mentions how it was created from raycasting and that the name should reflect that.

I get annoyed when people use terminology wrong (^:

Anonymous Thu May 26 17:36:02 2022 No.8948164

>>8947223
I believe the confusion lies in the ambiguity of the word "ray", referring to both optical and geometric terminology. I always interpreted "ray casting" in old game engines to mean casting a one dimensional ray along a two dimensional game map and rendering the scan. The act of measuring any given distance would use what I thought was referred to as a ray, which was placed from a source towards a target with the intersection being measured. Those measurements would create the dimensions to be rendered, which were rendered in sequence until the frame completed.
>Raycasting is not about how polygons are rasterized
That polygon cannot be rasterized by any method without a measurement. I honestly thought raycasting referred to the measurement of space and the communication of its contents, and you have yet to convince me otherwise. Either the terminology has to become more accurate or you will have to accept that these misunderstandings will happen.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 17:57:07 2022 No.8948231 >>8947223 rasterization just means taking something 3d and figuring out its 2d position in the flat projection. If you raycast a pixel, you are still rasterizing.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 18:33:37 2022 No.8948337 The sheer amount of sophistry on display from the "Doom is 2D" camp in this thread is astonishing. It has a 3D perspective, it plays like a 3D game, for all intents and purposes it is 3D.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 18:38:19 2022 No.8948359 >>8948337 t. stuck in plato's cave.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 19:05:19 2022 No.8948437 https://youtu.be/YelM8MdzzpI >flat sprites >”wow you guys!!! so 3d!!!!” It’s not 3D

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 20:03:36 2022 No.8948617 >>8935820 THIS, ENTIRELY THIS BASED CAT POSTER

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 21:17:28 2022 No.8948751 File: 2.94 MB, 720x406, Doom.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] The engine is very limited but there's just too many things that use the Z-axis to call it 2D. I personally consider it 3D.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 21:24:37 2022 No.8948764 >>8944638 so you can replicate 3d elements in 2d you are saying, because of perspective, but you can't move over things which means it's not 3d.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 21:25:59 2022 No.8948770 >>8947031 No you donut monsters can't pass over each other, if you're playing a sourceport that allows that you've fundamentally changed the engine and its not doom anymore right nigger?

Anonymous Thu May 26 21:28:44 2022 No.8948780

>>8947031
HELL, a projectile and a hitscan is drawing a ray and accounting for height, projectiles are an exception, and exist differently than the map or the mobs. Which cannot be, and can never be, 3d, unless you are playing a sourceport which makes edits to the engine and then it's not the original anymore.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 22:04:56 2022 No.8948856 >>8948780 Doom maps all include height data. Everywhere on the map has all 3 dimensions being accounted for. You can't even make a map and exclude the data for any of the dimensions, or it simply won't function. It is 3d in its most fundamental form.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 22:17:32 2022 No.8948907 >>8948856 See >>8942998

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 22:18:27 2022 No.8948909 >>8948764 Nothing of the sort is being said. In a physical space, all dimensions are fungible. The direction of gravity is arbitrarily.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 22:22:03 2022 No.8948924 >>8948907 That post has been proven false. You shouldn't revenue something so poorly conceived. The map is 3d. All data for all three dimensions, which is the definition of 3d. To pretend the data isn't there is simply a lie.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 22:26:37 2022 No.8948937 >>8948924 >Topographical markings have been proven false The landmark is 3D, and yet it can be represented on a 2D map. Like magic.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 22:33:34 2022 No.8948965 >>8948937 3d data, stored for use in the 3d game engine. Whatever hypothetical you're imagining, doesn't resemble the 3d game that Doom is.

>>	Anonymous Thu May 26 23:37:59 2022 No.8949112 >>8942621 Why yes Adding another dimension to two dimensions makes it three dimensional. That's how dimensions work. And unlike, in say, Zelda ALTTP, the 3rd dimension isn't a one-off for certain enemy types but rather core to the gameplay..

Anonymous Fri May 27 00:40:55 2022 No.8949264

>>8948937
It seems like you're primarily hung up on the idea that you can't do room-over-room in vanilla Doom, which they arguably would have restricted themselves to not doing anyway, because its easier to work on maps from the top-down perspective their editor had, and not allowing rooms above other rooms is a sensible technical restriction to have for back then.

I worked on a 3D game for a little while in GameMaker Studio, and the solution to room-above-room, although we were still working in top-down in the editor, was to simply create the floors and walls overlapping one another and assigning them different heights, then a player or other object would just check to see what the next plane was below it in the "stack", and the object's desired Z would get set to that. GMS is at a fundamental level designed for 2D, and yet we were able to quite easily achieve moving within 3D spaces, even though our editor only displayed things in 2D. They could have very easily done this with an overlapping sector system in Doom, I think, and I'm very sure they thought about the possibility and chose not to pursue it.

In any case, the other anons are right; encoding the 3 dimensions in Doom walls, floors, and objects makes it a 3D game, albeit with some very specific restrictions. Do you consider Warcraft 3 to be a fully 3D engine? Everything except UI elements and particle effects is a polygonal model and heightmaps are present, yet as far as I know you can't do terrain beneath other terrain, such that units can pathfind through a cave beneath grass or something. For a converse example, also an RTS, what about Tiberian Sun? Is it 3D? It does have tunnels and bridges that let units go above and below within the same tile, yet its an isometric voxel engine and doesn't use 3D models or texture-mapped heightmaps.

My point is that game tech especially in the 90s is more nuanced than you are giving it credit for,.

Anonymous Fri May 27 00:56:39 2022 No.8949303

>>8948937
>>8949264
As an aside, your core argument in this thread has been the idea that because Doom's architecture can be represented on a 2D map, it is therefore not 3D, implying that the game is actually playable in 2D. I would argue that it is not actually playable in that state, because during play you can't tell for example whether a wall's upper portion is actually blocking a path because its too low, until you smash yourself against it, something I think all of us have done while navigating with the map in Doom. The very fact the game demands you play within its first person perspective for cases like that and more makes any sentiment that its "not actually 3D lol" sound pretty silly.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 27 01:05:39 2022 No.8949320 >>8948751 This is a really cool video

>>	Anonymous Fri May 27 02:44:18 2022 No.8949542 >>8948359 kek

>>	Anonymous Fri May 27 02:57:00 2022 No.8949565 File: 837 KB, 800x800, unnamed.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Doom 2 Arcade. The rarest arcade cabinet of all time. Only one was made by ID ever.

Anonymous Fri May 27 03:11:28 2022 No.8949583

>>8948231
Its sort of an inverse rasterization, because it starts with a pixel position, and determines what should be drawn there.

>>8948164
Not my problem. Calculating depth to a vertex doesn't make something raycasting, every 3d engine has to do that. Just go read some 3d rendering code and write your own engines.

Anonymous Fri May 27 03:39:45 2022 No.8949628

Doom is 3D by all actual definitions since all gameplay entities move in 3 dimensions, have 3 dimensional properties, and visually every point has 3 dimensional coordinates.
The argument that map format is presented as a 2D schema means absolutely nothing, and makes no sense, because the format still has data on Z-dimension.

2D: Game shows 2 dimensions.Gameplay uses 2 dimensions.
3D: Both visuals and gameplay use 3 dimensions.
2.5D. Meaningless term on its own, does not really exists outside of videogames. Used to describe a game where one element of it uses 3 dimensions while another uses 2. Isometric or top down games that have height like >>8936417
Wolfenstein 3D - the gameplay is actually 2D, while visuals present height, even if it is limited.
Fighting games that use 3D models, but the gameplay is on 2D plane like Street Fighter 4, 5 and such.

Those who argue about Doom not being 3D try to invent their own definitions and move the goalposts to the point where it suits them.
Well let me move the goalpost further: no game is "trooly ackchuallee" 3D until it's a game on a Holodeck that can project 3D simulated space into a real 3D space. Until then it's all 2D.

Anonymous Fri May 27 06:27:57 2022 No.8949939

>>8949628
>no game is "trooly ackchuallee" 3D until it's a game on a Holodeck that can project 3D simulated space into a real 3D space.

Even then, this is a platonic or euclidean ideal rather than grounded in concrete reality, if such a thing can be said to exist at all.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 27 07:16:24 2022 No.8950028 >>8945236 what about the enemy sprites? you can fire rockets at the ceiling above them and they'd still get harmed by explosions

Anonymous Fri May 27 07:35:24 2022 No.8950061

>>8950028
The code is sloppy and omits a number of z-checks. The reason why I do not consider these skipped checks to make the game 2d, is because all the architecture is there but they stopped right at the finish line. All these missing z checks can be fixed with a handful of lines.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 27 07:48:32 2022 No.8950093 >>8950028 >>8950061 That's a very minor optimisation for the weakest of PCs. Next game on Doom engine - Heretic, does all the checks, and allows walking on monster heads and decorations as well.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 27 11:39:18 2022 No.8950576 >>8950028 Little programming cheats don't mean it lacks a dimension. Every game has them, even if you don't notice it.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 27 12:46:02 2022 No.8950792 >>8929442 This is the most retarded copypasta argument ever.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 27 14:33:35 2022 No.8951087 >>8929442 you can make a room with a cube in it. a cube is a three dimensional object

Anonymous Fri May 27 14:53:41 2022 No.8951131

>>8950792
This discussion makes the retards come out of the woodwork.

Yes if you have a 2d game where you had enough vertical possibilities it would be functionally equivalent to a 3d game - WE GET IT. The point is that Doom and similar games are not 3d as for example Quake is morons.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 27 15:00:44 2022 No.8951152 >>8951131 its cool that carmack made such an amazing hack that people are still discussing what the fuck it actually is i mean, most of the people who are discussing it do not actually understand how doom works internally, but it is interesting

>>	Anonymous Fri May 27 15:11:48 2022 No.8951171 All games are 2D. Your monitor can't display in three dimensions.

Anonymous Fri May 27 17:00:50 2022 No.8951439

>>8949583
No, it's still rasterization. Rasterization doesn't care how you do things, in the end you just want to the pixels given the objects. That you figure out the pixel pixel-by-pixel unto objects matters not. It's like classic raytracing, it's still a raster method.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 27 17:06:50 2022 No.8951453 >>8951439 I mean sure, but you've swapped the for loops around, so while you get the same result, it works out differently in practice and scales differencly.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 27 17:59:52 2022 No.8951658 >>8949320 Its made by decino. Also, it's using GZDoom's GL mode so it's sorta cheating. We're talking about Doom's renderer.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 27 18:11:44 2022 No.8951690 >>8951658 Pay attention to what actually happens. They are events that function in vanilla Doom. Events that only function in a 3d environment.

Anonymous Fri May 27 19:05:57 2022 No.8951838

>>8949112
So what you're saying is, either aLttP is processing 3D data or Doom isn't. Tacitly.
>>8949264
Thanks for bringing up GMS.
>GMS is at a fundamental level designed for 2D, and yet we were able to quite easily achieve moving within 3D spaces, even though our editor only displayed things in 2D.
And all you had to do was interpret 2D data into 3D renders. I believe texture-mapped polygons were implemented into Game Maker around 2004, so despite being fundamentally built on 2D processing which itself allowed for raycasting like Wolf3D, and technically allowing for BSP raycasting like in Doom, the ability to display rendered and textured meshes like Quake came later. So in a sense, it wouldn't be wrong to say that GMS used to be a 2D engine just like Doom, back when it was just called Game Maker. Thing is, that isn't a grand revelation and if anything illustrates my point further.
>>8949303
Ctrl-F "engine" and internalize that a game is not solely comprised of its gameplay, and that the apparence of 3D in the render is not being disputed.
The fact you even mention
>navigating with the map in Doom
While not realising that is what the Doom engine is using to process and render the POV is fucking hilarious to me. You were SO CLOSE to getting it.
>>8949583
If that casting is happening along the first dimension across a 2D map, yes it is. If you've resigned to the conversation by refusing to engage the point, you have conceded. No big deal either way.

Anonymous Fri May 27 19:07:18 2022 No.8951842

>>8948965
>>8950576
>>8951087
>>8951131
Tell me you don't know what linedefs are without telling me you don't know what linedefs are
>>8949264
>heightmaps [in Warcraft 3] are present, yet as far as I know you can't do terrain beneath other terrain
Yeah that's literally why, because heightmaps are also 2D information interpreted into 3D space by a rendering process. So no, I don't consider Warcraft 3 to be "fully" 3D, but considering how many textured meshes it's processing for characters and the like, I'm more inclined to say it's a 3D engine. Doom can't render 3D meshes, that came with Quake. It's a pretty exclusionary process.
>[Tiberian Sun] does have tunnels and bridges that let units go above and below within the same tile
You mean like Roller Coaster Tycoon? Is RCT 3D now?
>isometric voxel engine
I'm seriously doubting the engine runs on voxels. It looks like prerendered CG objects and characters on bitmapped land. Please elaborate.
>>8950061
>>8950093
Adding functionality to an engine means you have created a new iteration of that engine. Which is why you can't play Hexen maps in Doom without introducing the limitations of the Doom engine.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 27 19:08:02 2022 No.8951843 So what does the autist who made the Doom engine consider it?

>>	Anonymous Fri May 27 19:11:06 2022 No.8951859 >>8951843 He says it's both. https://mobile.twitter.com/id_aa_carmack/status/617694922825596928?lang=en

>>	Anonymous Fri May 27 19:15:59 2022 No.8951879 >>8951842 >3D game data used to produce 3D landscapes in a 3D game, is 2D because I disapprove of how it was written.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 27 19:20:07 2022 No.8951891 File: 23 KB, 288x391, 119368116-288-k567261~2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>8951879 "I insist that linedefs aren't occupying 2D space in the map" Delusional

>>	Anonymous Fri May 27 19:24:36 2022 No.8951903 >>8951842 Weird how obsessed you are with meshes. Surely nobody is stupid enough to imagine for a moment that is was a defining feature of 3d. Especially with so many 3d games like Doom that don't need meshes and produce their shapes in realtime.

Anonymous Fri May 27 19:59:09 2022 No.8951976
File: 12 KB, 640x1200, alphawaves_2.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>8951903
It's almost like the ability to render objects with vertices containing three spacial coordinates which can be freely placed above and below each other is fundamental to my argument, but I suppose you would have difficulty understanding that if you can't understand that linedefs are effectively one dimensional lines arranged into a 2D map and that making those one dimensional lines say "there is a wall here and the texture looks like this" does not make those one dimensional lines any less one dimensional.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 27 20:03:49 2022 No.8951987 >>8951976 Doom has no problem with doors and windows and ceilings a floors without having to worry about whether you approve of how it produces its fully 3d space.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 27 20:38:01 2022 No.8952047 >>8951987 But I do approve of it. It's using linedefs and sectors in a 2D map to determine the heights and textures of walls, floors and ceilings (and windows).

>>	Anonymous Fri May 27 20:44:51 2022 No.8952063 >>8952047 The map includes height as well as the other dimensions, so by definition it's a 3d map. Doom won't even work without having all three dimensions on its map. By design it won't function with a 2d map.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 27 20:59:30 2022 No.8952104 >>8951658 >Its made by decino It's not but I can understand why people could make that mistake since they're very similar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYGJQqhMN1U

>>	Anonymous Fri May 27 21:01:21 2022 No.8952109 File: 57 KB, 1200x900, D_TKUdgX4AItQUN.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>8952063 >What are linedefs and sectors

>>	Anonymous Fri May 27 21:05:17 2022 No.8952121 >>8948770 Learn to read, you abject retard. >>8952109 They are linedefs and sectors. Again, it's just a method for storing level geometry and other data, Duke Nukem 3D does the same thing, just using a portal setup instead of BSP.

>>	Anonymous Fri May 27 21:07:18 2022 No.8952127 >>8928289 always have been.

Anonymous Fri May 27 22:05:53 2022 No.8952275
File: 35 KB, 300x209, thumb_when-you-translate-a-shape-or-line-across-a-certain-66705860.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>8952121
Which is why I say Doom uses BSP Raycasting, as BSP is ultimately a method of partitioning data and not the scanning and rendering process itself. The nodes of BSP are ordered to create the fastest render for each POV ingame, and the raycasting checks and renders specific locations in those sequences of nodes to draw them more efficiently than traditional, linear raycasting.

Think of it like a "panoramic puzzle". This puzzle is split up into partitions determined by where you'll be looking while solving at any given time. Like the perspective inside a room, being partitioned by BSP. As you look at one stack of pieces from this huge puzzle you can see that they're numbered to match a diagram against the wall, a diagram to directly place the pieces in those coordinates in that order.

Not humanly possible in any reasonable amount of time, but a computer can place those pieces. It could complete an entire partition, and any partition attached if being viewed.

Here's the confusing part: That computer is scanning those puzzle pieces in that specific order and by the diagram's coordinates at the same time through the first dimension, or to be more accurate, through the POV of a 2D plane laid on its side, or to be even more accurate, the 2D map data which is comprised of linedefs and sectors. That is how the game uses BSP to raytrace, it is still effectively using raytracing just in a non-linear direction and order as determined by the BSP. The actual placement of those polygons in space after being rendered is a built in part of the one dimensional 2D map scanning process, it is not a representation of the map itself. The map dimensions are a 2D collection of linedefs and sectors. This means the map data is 2D, geometrically. I'm sorry if I've blown any fuses.

Anonymous Fri May 27 23:23:22 2022 No.8952547

>>8952275
The map remains 3d. Just as a mesh is made of many 2d cells, so is the Doom landscape made of its smaller units, each with a 3d definition in 3d space that works together to assemble the larger structure. To claim that the Doom map is 2d due to its constituent parts being simple, is the same as claiming that a modern 3d mesh structure is 2d simply because it's made of many smaller 2d cells. Large structures are always made of smaller constituent parts.

Anonymous Fri May 27 23:57:04 2022 No.8952616

>>8952547
Exactly. When you look at the top-down in map in Doom it appears as a flat drawing but in fact each line includes other variables including the Z position, in other words three dimensions. 3D models are just a giant array full of vertices that are assembled when the game is running, it's the same thing. People seem to think that the in-game map that shows up when you press tab is somehow the "real map of Doom" instead of just another way of visualizing the data.

Anonymous Sat May 28 00:11:38 2022 No.8952645
File: 90 KB, 601x676, gpru9o5nquy51.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>8952547
One dimensional lines make two dimensional shapes, that is fundamental geometry and not up for debate. The "3D definition" of linedefs and sectors exist on a 2D plane, you are confusing the game engine for the render. Plato's Cave and all that.
>>8952616
>just another way of visualizing the data
You mean like the render? Because that is the "other way" of visualizing the data. The map is what the engine is originally processing to create the render, you are conveniently ignoring how the game even has that map to begin with. Are you suggesting that the map is processed from the render? Because that would be actually retarded and I suggest you try your hardest to substantiate that, because you can't and I'd love to see you try.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 28 00:17:37 2022 No.8952660 >>8952275 Raycasting is still 3D, primitive, sure, but three dimensional nonetheless.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 28 00:18:51 2022 No.8952663 >>8952660 Use your words. God all these idiots just stating their opinion like that's going to affect anyone's opinion is fucking retarded

>>	Anonymous Sat May 28 00:20:57 2022 No.8952670 >>8952660 I suggest you explain what you mean.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 28 00:23:15 2022 No.8952681 >>8952663 >>8952670 >>8942482

Anonymous Sat May 28 00:23:17 2022 No.8952683
File: 142 KB, 640x360, duck.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

All software renderers are 2D.
All hardware accelerated renderers, whether fixed-function or programmable, are 3D. Eg, if you use opengl, vulkan, or directx, it's 3D, even if you are using an orthogonal projection matrix.
If it's a software renderer, even if you store everything with 3-space coords, have three dimensional gameplay, and render it with a 3D projection, it's still a 2D game.
Sorry, but it just is!

Anonymous Sat May 28 00:25:27 2022 No.8952692

>>8952645
A 3d object resting on a flat surface remains a 3d object. Every structure in a game has a positioning origin. It doesn't matter that you imagine it to be a level plane.

The game engine still operates in 3d space. The map is made up of points that define a 3d space. Objects move in 3d space. The terrain is defined with the data to produce 3d space. it only took 4 points to define a 3d space, and the collection of linedefs and sectors contain far more than just 4.

Anonymous Sat May 28 00:49:53 2022 No.8952751

>>8952681
>Adding a value to a sector gives it volume
The map doesn't look any different if the ground and floor are one unit apart or thirty two thousand units apart. You're thinking of the render. Again.
>>8952692
The engine is processing 2D data the entire time, regardless of how certain you are that writing z-coordinates on the x,y of a 2D map magically adds a third dimension to the map itself. Tell me, if I'm playing DnD and the DM is describing the dimensions of a space that's written on his map, does that make the DM's map 3D by describing it as such? Obviously not. Well, that's how height information is communicated on the map, by attribute description. But hey just like DnD, that 2D map can have depth in your imagination!

Anonymous Sat May 28 01:01:19 2022 No.8952791

>>8952751
You seem to think that the height coordinates come from outside the game. They don't. The game won't operate without them. They aren't added to a flat map, they are an existing part of the map that is always there. Furthermore, the Doom map is made to be used expressly by Doom. There is no 2d form because there is no game capable of using the Doom map in a 2d space. Even if such a game existed, it would not be Doom.

EVEN IF someone were adding an additional height coordinate to something that was 2D, it would of course make it a 3D system. That is literally how dimensions work. Adding a 4th point outside of a plane, defines a 3d space. It is established math.

If your Dungeon Master is describing a 3d space, you are playing the game that exists in his description. The cardboard prop is irrelevant.

Anonymous Sat May 28 01:56:38 2022 No.8952912
File: 20 KB, 638x406, Doom_map_e1m1.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>8952791
>The cardboard prop is irrelevant.
Written like someone that has never DMed.

It's as if you're trying to not understand.
>You seem to think that the height coordinates come from outside the game
They come from descriptions of linedefs and sectors, which is what rooms are comprised of. Which is in the game?
>They aren't added to a flat map, they are an existing part of the map that is always there.
It's like you cannot conceive of a Doom map being represented in 2D and retaining its ability to render 3D images. You're basically insisting the map data is 3D because that's how you perceive it.
>EVEN IF someone were adding an additional height coordinate to something that was 2D, it would of course make it a 3D system.
You basically just reiterated your reiteration. The answer is still no, and the explanation is above. Many times.
>That is literally how dimensions work. Adding a 4th point outside of a plane, defines a 3d space. It is established math.
There is no "fourth point" on the map. The map continues to be comprised of linedefs and sectors which are 2D constructs wherein containing the information to render 3D space. The map itself is not the 3D space, it is the map. If you wish to insist the 3D space is the true representation of the map data rather than the map data itself, you're a delusional ignoramus and I don't pity you. Here's the map for e1m1, it's distinctly not 3D. Idiot.

Anonymous Sat May 28 02:01:42 2022 No.8952929

>>8951842
>>isometric voxel engine
Tiberian Sun uses voxel vehicles (based on Westwood's Blade Runner tech I believe) so that they could tilt on slopes or when hit by projectiles, as well as to be affected by the game's light sourcing effects. Infantry are still hand drawn sprites, and the mechs and buildings were prerendered from 3D models. Terrain tiles are just hand drawn tiles I think.

My point was that Tiberian Sun still has 3D elements like the tile-above-tile aspect, so what I was trying to illustrate is that it can be hard to peg many games from the 90s as either straight up 2D or straight up 3D, the tech was often a mix of the two.

>>8951838
>navigating with the map in Doom
>You were SO CLOSE to getting it.
You don't have to be an asshole, you know. I'm keenly aware that the map in Doom is partially reflective of the first person view. It is not a full representation of it though, and Doom doesn't process the ingame map at all for rendering - its the other way around. And in any case its still not fully playable from the map view.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 28 02:05:25 2022 No.8952950 >>8952912 See >>8952547

>>	Anonymous Sat May 28 02:08:40 2022 No.8952954 >>8952912 >not 3D >immediatly climb up stairs to get gear >walk down the ramp to the pond >walk across the elevated path above pit >creature on a platform that changes level

>>	Anonymous Sat May 28 02:10:23 2022 No.8952959 >>8952954 Maybe he's a flat-earther too

>>	Anonymous Sat May 28 02:11:35 2022 No.8952964 >>8952912 The map data includes the height. The map view is an overhead simplification. You're confusing the map for the game engine for the map render.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 28 02:13:25 2022 No.8952968 File: 3.96 MB, 3000x3000, SanAndreasMap.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>8952912 This map can be viewed from above. By your logic, this game is 2d.

Anonymous Sat May 28 02:23:47 2022 No.8952983

>>8952964
This. The map provided does not show us the floor and ceiling height of sectors, whether there is a ceiling on a sector at all or if its just sky, the relative height of walls, and whether we would be able to climb them, go below them, fall off of them from one direction, or none of the above.

Anonymous Sat May 28 02:36:41 2022 No.8953024

>>8952929
Neat. Definitely some sort of rasterization process happening there, so I wouldn't call it 2D exclusively like RCT. But yeah the fact it's there would mean it is technically 2.5D, but only barely. I'll commend you on finding one of the most marginal cases I've seen.
>it can be hard to peg many games from the 90s as either straight up 2D or straight up 3D, the tech was often a mix of the two.
I agree, but that doesn't make discussing it any less interesting.
>I'm keenly aware that the map in Doom is partially reflective of the first person view.
That would be the other way around. The first person view is partially reflective of the map. Since ya don't got eyes in the back of your head and all.
>Doom doesn't process the ingame map at all for rendering
I know that, it's a simplified representation of what the engine is processing. Engine reads map, map renders game scenes, press map button and simplified map is drawn over top the render. Where did the map come from? The engine running it.
>in any case its still not fully playable from the map view
Never claimed it was, that's a mischaracterization from someone else.
>>8952950
See>>8952645
>>8952954
>in the render
>>8952959
If that makes you feel better about being wrong, which is ironic because the assertion itself is fallacious
>>8952964
Map view =! The map
>>8952968
You can get prostitutes in-game and that means you got laid.
>see you later, virgins
Also
>>8952964
>>8952983
A bitmapped screenshot isn't the same thing as the 2D vector map data itself, geniuses. Can't believe I have to explain that...

Anonymous Sat May 28 02:44:49 2022 No.8953041

>>8952912
>Here's the map for e1m1, it's distinctly not 3D
It's a map. What's wrong with you? For this whole fucking thread, you're basing your bullshit on being able to see the map as if it were from above. You have no explanation for why anyone should ignore the 3d space that is defined, but this map is your world. The game's overhead map is not the level. I'm sorry you failed geometry.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 28 02:47:00 2022 No.8953049 >>8953024 There is no 2d version of the game. Where is your example? Where is your proof? Why should everyone ignore all the 3d?

>>	Anonymous Sat May 28 02:47:20 2022 No.8953051 >>8953041 >being able to see the map from above No you fucking idiot, I'm saying THE ENGINE is viewing the map from above. Holy shit you people are illiterate

>>	Anonymous Sat May 28 02:49:23 2022 No.8953054 >>8953051 You tried to pretend that your map view was proof that the game was 2d. You're backpedaling really hard now. Pretty clear you're embarrassed to be called out on it.

Anonymous Sat May 28 02:53:25 2022 No.8953069

>>8953049
I didn't say ignore the render, I'm saying stop ignoring how the engine works. You're stuck in Plato's Cave and you think I'm the fool.
>>8953054
So you DO think I was referring to bitmaps when I say "2D maps", even though everyone that has ever opened a doom map editor knows it uses vectors. Way to tacitly admit your reading comprehension is so incredibly shit

Anonymous Sat May 28 02:53:28 2022 No.8953071

>>8953051
The engine doesn't view the map from above. The engine doesn't view anything at all. The engine functions on collision detection. The engine is the reason why enemies can't walk through walls, and can't shoot through windows that are above their personal plain of sight.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 28 02:54:29 2022 No.8953075 >>8953069 Read >>8952547

>>	Anonymous Sat May 28 02:56:28 2022 No.8953083 >>8953069 The engine works in 3d. Stop ignoring it.

Anonymous Sat May 28 03:05:41 2022 No.8953105

>>8953071
How do you think the engine knows where to draw those ledges or enemies? Or what attributes sectors have? It has to read that data somehow. I'm telling you, all of that information can be saved in the vector data because the vectors have attributes that can describe information to the rendering process. This includes height data. You can describe lighting, height, textures, everything, by attributing them to lines on a map.
>>8953075
I refuted that here >>8952645
I get you're really proud of your refuted non sequitur, and by repeatedly citing it rather than clarifying why the refutation was incorrect you're tacitly conceding. I'm sure you feel really cool doing that, because it's all you have left. Feel free to try when you start caring again, unless you really need that emotional coddling in which case please continue, I'll help u feel better about urself bro
>>8953083
Care to explain how 2D vector data is 3D or are you just going to continue asserting your point like a defiant toddler

Anonymous Sat May 28 03:06:06 2022 No.8953106

>>8953069
You've been trying to make everyone ignore the render for the whole thread. That's why you insist on calling it "the render". You try to paint the idea of an invisible 2D game that nobody can see because somehow the 3D visuals are distracting. All the while, you ignore that the game can't actually function without its 3D data, because guess what, it's a 3D game.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 28 03:11:26 2022 No.8953115 >>8929359 doom is not a raycaster

Anonymous Sat May 28 03:15:09 2022 No.8953129

>>8953106
Cite where I said the render wasn't a part of the game. I did no such thing, and your assertion I have is mischaracterization on your part. I am well aware the gameplay appears 3D, but that visual representation of the data isn't how the vector map data actually exists, and it isn't how the engine itself interprets that data. It's all explained above, you clearly just don't understand it.

Let's say I'm driving a car. Because I'm retarded, I don't understand how the engine works. I believe that the engine is full of bees buzzing really hard and that makes the wheels turn when I push the pedal. Does my retarded understanding of the engine override the physical processes of the engine?
>>8953115
It's a BSP raycaster. Go ahead, get me started. I'll explain.

Anonymous Sat May 28 03:26:51 2022 No.8953150

>>8953105
A 4th point outside of a plane defines a 3D space. It's geometry and not up for debate. Get it through your head.

An example for you. A 3D mesh contains cells. A cell made of 3 points is flat, defining a plane segment. Add another point to create another cell. As long as the two cells are not parallel, the shape is now 3D. This is also not up for debate.

The levels in Doom are made of linedefs. As with cells, they are made of points in space. Multiple linedefs make shapes. They are functionally interchangeable with a mesh. Shapes that are not parallel, define a 3D structure. You clearly don't like this, but it is fact and not up for debate.

These 3D shapes are now the structure that the levels are made of. They function as walls, stairs, windows, doorways, platforms, etc... This is also not up for debate.

The player. The monsters. The powerups. All use the levels 3D structures as their environment. Collision prevents them from walking through walls and falling through floors. This is also not up for debate.

Slow-moving fireballs can move over your head, as they take full advantage of calculating their position in the 3D space. Not up for debate.

Baring errors or aggressive code optimizations, creatures that cannot see you are not able to shoot you. This not only includes horizontal obstructions but vertical obstructions. This is also not up for debate.

The player is able to travel up stairs and fall off cliffs. Debate it if you want.

Everything you've tried to drone on about has been addressed and refuted now.
Why should anyone ignore all the 3D and believe in your flat earth?

Anonymous Sat May 28 03:44:03 2022 No.8953181

>>8953150
>outside the plane
You are linguistically granting your own premise because you don't understand how the vector map data is sorted. You are under the impression that linedefs are drawing lines vertically and connecting sectors on the 2D vector map data, it isn't. That's only happening in the render. The linedefs and sectors are all comprised of one dimensional lines attached to each other along a single axis, forming a 2D map, and they all have attributes attached to these vectors that communicates rendering data to the engine. The 2D vector map data itself is not and can not represent 3D geometry. Fundamentally. Also
>The player. The monsters. The powerups.
All bitmapped and scaled sprites. Omnidirectional billboards. 2D data. 3D game. You're illiterate.

Anonymous Sat May 28 03:57:10 2022 No.8953209

>>8953181
Two points define a line. Did you not know that?
Two non-parallel lines define a plane. Did you not know that?
A single new point outside of that plane defines a space? Did you not know that?

In order for everything to be in 2D, every single point that existed would have to be flat on the same plane. They aren't. If they were, there would be no height to anything. You want to pretend that height data doesn't exist, but it does exist. You want to pretend that height data doesn't produce any points, but that's exactly what it does. That's all it does. That's what the data is expressly there to do. It's not just "the render", it's a procedurally generated 3D mesh. Data doesn't have to be stored in the format you like, it just has to conform to geometry, which Doom does whether you like it or not.

Now try actually reading the post.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 28 04:01:03 2022 No.8953213 >>8953181 >tryint to move the goalposts to the sprites the levels of cope

>>	Anonymous Sat May 28 04:04:33 2022 No.8953220 >>8953209 >it's a procedurally generated 3D mesh Pffffhahah How do you think it generates that "mesh"? From where does that information come from >>8953213 >Also doesn't mean additionally A thing we also disagree on

>>	Anonymous Sat May 28 04:06:05 2022 No.8953221 >>8953220 You were just told how. Read it.

Anonymous Sat May 28 04:15:36 2022 No.8953235

>>8953220
When the render is deciding what to draw, it measures between the points. This includes the top points and the bottom points. If the top points didn't exist, the game would only be a floor with no walls. If it wasn't part of the game engine, then the collision wouldn't work against it. Not 2D in the least.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 28 04:24:07 2022 No.8953252 This is the only console with actual 3d games

>>	Anonymous Sat May 28 04:25:07 2022 No.8953254 File: 7 KB, 236x213, n3ds.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>8953252

Anonymous Sat May 28 04:46:31 2022 No.8953291

>>8953221
Imagine if that's how I responded to you and try again. I took your core point and dissected it, and all you have to say is "well you must not have read it correctly". On the contrary, you just don't know what you're talking about. I'm not saying Doom is fucking mode 7, that would be fucking idiotic and the fact you thought that was what I meant would indicate your inability to activate your comprehensive reading ability. Take your own advice.
>>8953235
Wrong. There is no measurement procedure for height, height is a predetermined variable preassigned to the linedefs and sectors which themselves exist as a 2D vector map. The linedefs are what DEFines the LINEs between the sectors. Geddit

>>	Anonymous Sat May 28 07:44:33 2022 No.8953591 >>8953291 Position (1,2,0) + height 4 = Position (1,2,4) As he said, it's procedural. Any easier and someone will have to draw you a picture.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 28 08:46:36 2022 No.8953678 >>8953591 >Position (1,2,0) That's gonna be a no from me. Is it zero or is it null? Important distinction.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 28 09:02:20 2022 No.8953698 i can't believe they lied to us in 1994

>>	Anonymous Sat May 28 09:08:06 2022 No.8953712 >>8929968 but what if i put a piece of bread in between two pieces of bread

Anonymous Sat May 28 09:36:46 2022 No.8953790

>>8951838
>So what you're saying is, either aLttP is processing 3D data or Doom isn't. Tacitly.
Resorting to autistic reductivism is meaningless. ALttP neither presents as a 3D world nor does 99% of the gameplay involve height-certainly not droppable walls or else we'd consider chutes and ladders 3D.
Doom presents as a 3D world, looks like a 3D world, and Three-Dimensions are consistently core to its gameplay. Verticality plays into where you can go, where you can shoot, and how far you can "jump" (running off a surface) to another ledge. It's intrinsic.

Anonymous Sat May 28 10:01:24 2022 No.8953854

>>8953790
I suppose it's meaningless if you don't fundamentally understand the dichotomy you presented. You understand damn well that Zelda is comprised of 2D data because that is how you primarily interact with the gameplay. Note how the gameplay is not the data itself, and how unconcerned you are with the presence of height coordinates in that data.

You are absolutely sold on the idea that Doom is comprised of 3D data because that is how you primarily interact with the gameplay. Note how the gameplay still is not the data itself, yet the presence of height data now convinces you the gameplay is 3D. How could you possibly render height if the game isn't 3D? The thought of that information being procedurally generated from a 2D vector map never even approaches your mind.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 28 10:11:15 2022 No.8953889 Even though I knew from the start this was a troll thread, reading this nonsense is still massively pissing me off. Well played OP.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 28 10:22:09 2022 No.8953924 >>8953129 doom is not a raycaster

>>	Anonymous Sat May 28 10:26:18 2022 No.8953935 >>8953924 Or don't. If you've resigned to the conversation before starting we can just write you off as having conceded straight away. That was efficient

Anonymous Sat May 28 10:37:49 2022 No.8953956

>>8953854
Pitfall for the Atari 2600 famously doesn't have enough memory to hold its levels. The game utilizes a formula to procedurally generate them a page at a time. The formula is not playable, it's just compressed data storage. Dooms levels are no different. The actual level only exists when the game is played. You are confusing compressed data storage for the actual game. The game is 3D, and the stored data is not played directly.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 28 10:54:51 2022 No.8953993 >>8953956 >The actual level only exists when the game is played Object permanence is learned during infancy. The 2D vector maps do not cease to exist when the game isn't scanning them for rendering, they remain installed to the computer safe and sound.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 28 13:54:10 2022 No.8954409 >>8953854 It's meaningless to create a false dichotomy and then expect everyone to follow it. Nobody cares about what fucking data format it's stored in, you're going to have to reach up your ass further to find another stupid metric

>>	Anonymous Sat May 28 14:42:40 2022 No.8954531 >>8951859 /thread

>>	Anonymous Sat May 28 15:19:37 2022 No.8954652 >>8953993 If you're going to be pedantic, the 2D map is really a very long string of 0s and 1s that is interpreted when the "game is scanning them for rendering" so Doom is in fact a 1D game just like any other computer software ever created.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 28 15:28:51 2022 No.8954670 >>8953993 The 3D data stored within those vector maps don’t cease to exist either you knob.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 28 15:39:00 2022 No.8954701 Doom is a very clever 3D representation of a 2D game.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 28 16:28:05 2022 No.8954818 >>8954670 >>8954652 >>8954409 >>8953956 It's clear he doesn't understand anything that any of you are telling him.

Anonymous Sat May 28 21:05:37 2022 No.8955550
File: 178 KB, 2100x1400, narcissus poisoning.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>8954409
>Yeah well that's a false dichotomy because, because... because I say so
Good for you. Maybe substantiate your assertions when you make them
>Nobody cares about what fucking data format it's stored in
Saying "nobody cares" in the middle of a debate can only indicate "I have no counter argument so I've instead convinced myself that everyone already agrees with me so I can emotionally recover from being wrong". Well guess what, objectivity doesn't care how many people do or don't believe in it. It's objective. The game is objectively processing 2D vector map data to render 3D perspective illusions, you refused to offer a rebuttal because the very assertion is somehow personally insulting to you, failure to rebut means you have tacitly conceded.
>you're going to have to reach up your ass further to find another stupid metric
If you can't refute how the engine runs on 2D vector map data, what's the point? You've already tacitly conceded
>>8954652
I know you're being facetious, and yet raycasting really does scan on the first dimension along the plane of the 2D vector map data for rendering information. Really all you did was draw attention to the engine using 2D vector map data again.
>>8954818
Project harder ignorami

Anonymous Sat May 28 21:29:55 2022 No.8955616

>>8954670
That was indeed the point. 2D vector map data cannot display "3D data" geometrically inside a 2D vector map, it's a bunch of attribute descriptions applied to the vector map data interpreted by the game engine and then rendered. Acting like the 2D vector map data doesn't contain 3D data just because it isn't geometrically represented is like acting the 2D vector map data doesn't exist just because you can't see it during regular gameplay.

Oh right, that is how you're acting. I'm sure that won't be confusing for you.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 28 21:36:22 2022 No.8955632 >>8929942 >Quake featured no room over room geometry anywhere But it did, and even if it didn’t, it could.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 28 21:37:38 2022 No.8955637 >>8930081 They are. Source ports aren’t.

>>	Anonymous Sat May 28 22:08:55 2022 No.8955720 File: 5 KB, 148x125, .png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >Starcraft is 3D except its not

>>	Anonymous Sat May 28 22:23:26 2022 No.8955753 Marathon was 3D

>>	Anonymous Sat May 28 23:18:13 2022 No.8955871 >>8955550 >Noooooo you can't do that you can't just no accept my arbitrary metrics!!! fuck off, cope and reach harder. >it's an illusion tell me you don't know how 3D graphics work without telling me you don't know how 3d graphics work

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 00:06:41 2022 No.8955989 >>8928079 sector heights exist and effect things at the gameplay level /thread

Anonymous Sun May 29 00:22:58 2022 No.8956019

>>8955871
>the game engine objectively reading 2D raster map data is an arbitrary metric
If you're a delusional ignoramus. You can keep attempting to shut down the conversation all you like, it doesn't change that you've already conceded.

il·lu·sion
/iˈlo͞oZHən/
noun
a thing that is or is likely to be wrongly perceived or interpreted by the senses.

It *appears* to be 3D because the game is scanning a 2D vector map. Project harder.
>>8955989
Those sectors and linedefs exist in the map data as vectors along an x,y axis which affect gameplay, the game is 2.5D

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 00:29:01 2022 No.8956034 File: 161 KB, 732x1090, YoullNeverGetIt.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>8956019

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 01:15:42 2022 No.8956228 >>8956034 So are you going to make the "house of cards" fall or what? Mere indignant observation isn't going to do that.

Anonymous Sun May 29 02:28:27 2022 No.8956485

>>8956228
Doom uses 3D data for the purposes of rendering 3D scenes and conducting 3D gameplay, because that data encodes not one or two but three (3) dimensions - x, y, and the coveted z. It doesn't matter that it doesn't do room-above-room, it doesn't matter how it even renders it. It's still 3D. Full stop.

You being a petulant child that has realized their troll attempt has failed will never, ever change that. You being unable to see that a top-down partial representation of the data does not mean that the game is not 3D will never, ever change that.

Doom is 3D. Live it with it or don't.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 02:32:29 2022 No.8956496 >>8953712 Then you'd be British

Anonymous Sun May 29 02:46:21 2022 No.8956526

>>8955616
I don't think you really understand how data loading works with regard to games, to be honest. The data isn't really a 2D "vector map" in this case, or really any case. The data is basically just a set of instructions, like a sector enclosed by n number of linedefs, and that sector having a floor and ceiling z value. It's just text ultimately, which Doom's executable is reading. Literally every game ever is going to be encoding data in a form that is a text file, a list of shit to process by the executable.

The attributes you're talking about with regard to the map *is* the data, but you're acting like its somehow not as essential as the rest of the data, which is clearly retarded. The data isn't the "vector map" as you call it, its just the data. The data is 3D, because it accounts for the three dimensions Doom was written to use. How many more times are you going to deflect the argument (and fact) that the data encodes 3 dimensions with
>you're just an ignoramus, and really you're just confirming what I've already said with what you said (somehow!)

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 02:56:01 2022 No.8956539 >>8956019 The only 3D to 2D illusion going on is the blit to your monitor. Mathematically, it's 3 dimensions at the source.

Anonymous Sun May 29 03:07:58 2022 No.8956562
File: 51 KB, 1714x1656, dotted point five line not real 3D.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>8951891
>2D space in the map
>a 1D map of 2D points where the index is itself a point of another axis
>not 3 dimensions being stored, interpreted, and rendered

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 03:44:08 2022 No.8956609 Visual aids aren't going to help him get it. He won't understand you. You can't fix him.

Anonymous Sun May 29 04:21:45 2022 No.8956669 [DELETED]

File: 69 KB, 493x598, Grade F.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>8952912
>>8953024
>>8953024
>>8953051
>>8953069
>>8953071
>>8953105
>>8953129
>>8953181
>>8953220
>>8953291
>>8953678
>>8953854
>>8953854
>>8953993
>>8955550
>>8956019
>>8956228
>>8956526

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 04:31:03 2022 No.8956686 >>8956669 Hey, >>8956526 was in rebuttal to the flat earthing autistic asshole. But thank you for the F I guess

Anonymous Sun May 29 04:48:26 2022 No.8956715
File: 8 KB, 236x142, 9SQAEwq(1).png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>8956485
>>8956539
>>8956562
>The third dimension is encoded into the 2D vector map so the 2D vector map is 3D
No, objectively. Actually try.
>>8956526
>The data isn't a 2D vector map because it's really just a text file, ignore that I obfuscated how the text is denoting x,y coordinates which the engine interprets
The vertices for a map are stored in the VERTEXES lump, which consists of a raw sequence of x, y coordinates as pairs of 16-bit signed integers. The bytes are in little-endian order (least significant byte first). That "text file"?
>>8956686
>maps are flat therefore the earth is flat
Yeah no

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 05:00:17 2022 No.8956748 >>8956715 You just won’t ever understand I guess, and ultimately that’s fine. Doom is still 3D.

Anonymous Sun May 29 06:13:47 2022 No.8956873
File: 60 KB, 769x733, 1613184888229.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>8956748
If it were actually processing 3D vector map data, that map data would be stored as a sequence of x,y,z coordinates. Instead, the z-coordinate data is assigned to the sector rather than the vertices because the vertices only occupy a 2D plane.
>The vertices for a map are stored in the VERTEXES lump, which consists of a raw sequence of x, y coordinates as pairs of 16-bit signed integers.
Your insistence that the map data isn't 2D despite the actual evidence I've provided would indicate that you're as bad at reading as you are at geometry.
>But but but if you're adding another dimension then it isn't 2D
The coordinate data is attributed to the linedefs and sectors. The vertices those linedefs and sectors are comprised of are stored in x,y space. That means the map isn't gaining another dimension geometrically. Read a book. Preferably without pictures.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 06:47:51 2022 No.8956918 >>8956873 SRB2 supports room over room, but it still uses the doom "2d" map system. Does that mean SRB2 is 2d as well?

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 07:07:17 2022 No.8956938 >>8956918 >Hey guys this source port game you weren't talking about can do those things can I be included Doom Legacy engine =! id Tech 1 engine

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 07:18:43 2022 No.8956951 >>8956938 Yes, but they both use the exact same 2d mapping system. So your argument that a 2d map can't be 3d is nonsense.

Anonymous Sun May 29 07:22:01 2022 No.8956956

>>8956873
>don't give me 4
But this is what you're doing. You're completely ignoring >>8953150
You aren't accepting that the map data itself bears zero relevance to the argument.

>>8956938
It's still the same. You just add a few things to have room over room.

Anonymous Sun May 29 07:53:57 2022 No.8957021

>>8956951
If it were exactly the same, it would be the id Tech 1 engine.
>your argument that a 2d map can't be 3d is nonsense.
That's what I'm arguing for, not against. The 2D map has attributes which communicate height information to the rendering procedure, these attributes don't add any actual depth to the map data itself geometrically.
>>8956956
You're right. I totally ignored the impossibility of placing vertices outside the map plane, just like I ignored how map data is needed for map rendering. Oh wait that's you
>The vertices for a map are stored in the VERTEXES lump, which consists of a raw sequence of x, y coordinates as pairs of 16-bit signed integers.

>It's still the same.
>You just add a few things
Pick one

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 07:59:20 2022 No.8957034 If it was 2D, I wouldn't be able to walk under a fireball.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 08:06:46 2022 No.8957051 >>8957034 "it" isn't everything

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 08:19:36 2022 No.8957085 >>8957051 The gameplay is objectively 3D, sorry.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 08:23:15 2022 No.8957092 File: 60 KB, 514x643, happy.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>8955550 Your shitposting is 2D but doom is 3D... i know i know... but it just is... okay?

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 08:32:22 2022 No.8957112 >>8957085 That's not what Carmack said>>8951859 >>8957092 >I reject your reality and substitute my own. Very objective

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 09:25:28 2022 No.8957225 >>8957112 >appeal to authority Don't care. You can walk over pickups, you can walk under projectiles, autoaim has a hard cap on its range, and Archviles can cause the player to jump. It's 3D.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 09:32:31 2022 No.8957245 >>8957021 >just like I ignored how map data is needed for map rendering Nobody did.

Anonymous Sun May 29 09:55:01 2022 No.8957296
File: 166 KB, 680x693, 1_Kmd2j_y80B45B2wv4buzKA.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>8957225
Fallacy fallacy. You're effectively claiming the guy that made the engine doesn't know how it works.
>Using 3D images and gameplay rendered from a 2D vector map to refute the 2D vector map
>"Oh dear," says the vector map, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly disappears in a puff of logic.
>>8957245
>Nobody did, except for me when I said
>You aren't accepting that the map data itself bears zero relevance to the argument.

You want to completely ignore the processes involved that create the image that you are using to determine whether or not the "game" is 3D.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 10:04:42 2022 No.8957313 >>8957296 Why should the map data bear any relevance at all?

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 10:04:46 2022 No.8957315 >>8957296 >You're effectively claiming the guy that made the engine doesn't know how it works. When he's stating incorrect information, it doesn't matter who he is. The gameplay is literally not on a 2D plane..

Anonymous Sun May 29 10:13:46 2022 No.8957328
File: 11 KB, 768x717, 1588365750528.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>8957313
If there were no map data there would be no render.
>>8957315
>Incorrect information
Ha ha, you have burden of proof now. You have to prove the map vertices aren't stored exclusively in x,y space even though that's objectively what the engine is doing.
>The vertices for a map are stored in the VERTEXES lump, which consists of a raw sequence of x, y coordinates as pairs of 16-bit signed integers.
Fucking lol

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 10:17:04 2022 No.8957337 >>8957328 >If there were no map data there would be no render. You're dodging the question. The map data is there, why should its form bear any relevance?

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 10:26:16 2022 No.8957364 File: 377 KB, 417x607, etfunman.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>8957296 That's a lot of words to admit your a fag and doom is 3D.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 10:26:54 2022 No.8957365 >>8957328 >You have to prove the map vertices aren't stored exclusively in x,y space Why? I said the gameplay is not in 2D.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 10:37:55 2022 No.8957394 >>8957337 It's generally good practice to understand how your engine works if you claim to know how your car works.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 10:42:40 2022 No.8957413 >>8957394 That's not answering the question.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 10:46:05 2022 No.8957421 >>8957413 Answering the question would prove his eceleb-fueled bullshit wrong.

Anonymous Sun May 29 10:48:18 2022 No.8957429

>>8957364
>One paragraph is a lot of words
I remember thinking that in third grade. I was clearly being optimistic when I said you guys were illiterate. Case in point:
>>8957365
"prove the map vertices aren't stored exclusively in x,y space"
>Why? I said the gameplay is not in 2D.
That's exactly why. Perform an autolobotomy
>>8957413
Yes it is. People are claiming they know how their car works (the "Doom" engine aka id Tech 1) without understanding the engine (the map interpreter and renderer).

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 10:50:12 2022 No.8957437 >>8957429 >That's exactly why. Objects are stored in 3D space, and it's possible to even move on all 3 axis. It's 3D.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 10:50:20 2022 No.8957438 >>8957429 You have not explained why the map data makes it 2D.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 10:51:58 2022 No.8957440 >Almost 500 replies

Anonymous Sun May 29 11:24:09 2022 No.8957516

>controversy is controversial
>>8957437
>Objects are stored in 3D space
Objects (part of the grouping "things") lack an attribute for z-coordinates. So, no. They're placed along a 2D vector map, and the game references the sector the thing is in to determine its placement on your screen's y axis.
>>8957438
I did explain how the vector map data is 2D, but clearly nuance is lost on the illiterate

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 11:35:17 2022 No.8957530 >>8957516 >lack an attribute for z-coordinates Not at all, see: Cacodemons. They need to fly upward in order to reach a ledge above them. Or projectiles that do not have infinitely-tall hitboxes.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 11:37:55 2022 No.8957531 >>8957516 >I did explain how the vector map data is 2D You didn't explain why that is relevant.

Anonymous Sun May 29 11:48:54 2022 No.8957565

>>8957530
Yes at all. The "things" group, which includes players, enemies, pickups, projectiles, obstacles, etc, don't have z-coordinates attributed to them.
Level thing data is stored in the THINGS lump. Each entry is 10 bytes long.

Offset Size (bytes) Description
0 2 x position
2 2 y position
4 2 Angle facing
6 2 DoomEd thing type
8 2 Flags

Note the lack of z-coordinates.
>>8957531
I said it a hundred times, which is why I said the nuance was lost on the illiterate. The engine is rendering 3D images from 2D data. No 2D data, no 3D images. The engine cannot be "3D" without also being "2D". It's both. If you're having trouble understanding, you should really just ask for clarification.

Anonymous Sun May 29 11:50:03 2022 No.8957570

>>8957565
>The "things" group, which includes players, enemies, pickups, projectiles, obstacles, etc, don't have z-coordinates attributed to them.
Except they do, which is why the player is able to fall down a ledge or flying enemies are able to move vertically.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 11:55:12 2022 No.8957578 >>8957570 Then you should have no problem telling me where that's denoted in the "things" lump.

Anonymous Sun May 29 12:03:49 2022 No.8957601
File: 58 KB, 989x655, file.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>8957578
Don't worry, I won't.
Each thing has a "no gravity" flag that causes it to either spawn on the ceiling or floor. Keens and hanging corpses use this flag. The sector's floor or ceiling height is what's used to place the thing. There doesn't need to be one defined in the editor.
Things still use 3D space to determine legal movement. If a floor is too low or high, a walking monster can't move to it. A flying monster would have to ascend or descend until it is able to clear it.

Anonymous Sun May 29 12:05:14 2022 No.8957606

>>8957578
>>8957601
And because most things do not fly, it would be pointless to give them a height value independent of their sector floor.
Explain why Doom is still 2D despite the player being able to walk over pickups or under projectiles. That's one thing you've been conveniently avoiding. Any reason why?

Anonymous Sun May 29 12:19:23 2022 No.8957629

>>8957565
if (mobjinfo[i].flags & MF_SPAWNCEILING)
z = ONCEILINGZ;
else
z = ONFLOORZ;

mobj = P_SpawnMobj (x,y,z, i);

Technically the things lump has 1 bit of z information, the initial z position can be specified as floor or ceiling. Once the object has been spawned it does have a z coordinate though.

Anonymous Sun May 29 12:20:48 2022 No.8957632

>>8956715
>>The third dimension is encoded into the 2D vector map so the 2D vector map is 3D
>No, objectively.
You're saying it's 3 dimensions yourself so I don't know what you mean by this. What's subjective about 3 dimensions being 3 dimensions?

>Actually try
Ehh, I'm not really interested but if you leave your contact info I'll consider it.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 12:27:26 2022 No.8957646 >>8931237 >Every game performs a mathematical illusion to present 3d to you on your flat 2d video screen. This. Even polygons are "fake" 3D. Real 3D would be actual holograms projecting or something, like the holodeck

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 13:24:28 2022 No.8957770 >>8956019 >It's an illusion It's pixels on a screen you fucking moron, it's always an illusion

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 13:31:21 2022 No.8957785 >playing Duke Nukem 3D with Raze >auto-aim makes chaingun and shotgun spread tighter It wasn't like this on DOS, was it? I'm assuming it's a bug.

Anonymous Sun May 29 13:46:01 2022 No.8957830

>>8957601
>The sector's floor or ceiling height is what's used to place the thing. There doesn't need to be one defined in the editor.
That was indeed the point I was making. The "thing" lump doesn't indicate z-coordinates because it's referencing the sectors inside the 2D vector map data.
>Explain why Doom is still 2D despite the player being able to walk over pickups or under projectiles.
I'm not saying Doom "is 2D" or "is 3D". I'm saying that Doom renders 3D scenes from a 2D vector map. It's both. And I have explained why, many times. You keep using examples that are only meaningful in the render, ultimately refusing to acknowledge how the game is creating that render from a 2D vector map. The ability to go over or under things is indicated by attributes placed upon a 2D vector map.
>>8957629
Assigning attributes to allow for a 3D render would indicate that it's on a 2D vector map. Just like sectors.
>>8957632
Wow you say you're not interested man you sure fooled me
>The third dimension is encoded into the
>2D vector map
>so the
>2D vector map
>is 3D
Just guess what I meant by that.
>>8957646
>>8957770
We're not talking about physical real world spacetime when we say 3D rendering. The act of 3D rendering is rasterization, which is inherently designed for displays. The Issue is that people are under the impression Doom maps have 3D vector data which they rasterize, they don't. It's 2D vector data with attributed 3D information for things, linedefs and sectors. Those attributes are not geometrically shown on the game map, it becomes represented inside the render and nowhere else. This doesn't mean I'm claiming Doom "is 2D" or "is 3D", I'm claiming it's both through the usage of an illusion. It appears 3D, but is actually 2D. Like magic. Or your ex.

Anonymous Sun May 29 13:48:51 2022 No.8957836

>>8957830
You're the one who brought up 3D "rendering"
Your claim is wrong, the gameplay, world, and visuals of Doom are 3D. The rendering engine is only capable of displaying that world from a viewpoint parallel to the ground plain, that's it.

You're literally just wrong

Anonymous Sun May 29 14:01:14 2022 No.8957865

>>8957836
>the gameplay, world, and visuals of Doom are 3D.
Appear* 3D. Because of the 2D vector map.
>The rendering engine is only capable of displaying that world from a viewpoint parallel to the ground
Because the engine isn't processing 3D vector maps. If it were the camera could have roll and pitch movements with no visual distortion. It can only scan across a viewpoint parallel to the ground because it is scanning the "ground". And the walls, and the roof or lack of one. At the same time. With a 2D vector map.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 14:14:22 2022 No.8957892 >>8957865 If it were a 2d map, it would appear 2d. Think for once.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 14:22:00 2022 No.8957916 >>8957892 The render procedure isn't mode 7, take your own advice

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 14:24:49 2022 No.8957923 >>8957916 I take your non sequitur as you conceding that it's not 2d.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 14:27:26 2022 No.8957930 >>8957923 The only way that would be a non sequitur is if the render process is mode 7, which it isn't. Do you know what a non sequitur is?

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 14:29:13 2022 No.8957934 >>8957930 If you think you need mode 7 for something to be 3d, you're a very special level of retarded.

Anonymous Sun May 29 14:47:12 2022 No.8957976

>>8957934
Why are so many Doom fans completely illiterate? I said it isn't mode 7 because it's not flat, not because it isn't 3D. I know the render is 3D. That render is being drawn from 2D vector map information. If you don't understand how that works, read the thread lazy.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 14:49:40 2022 No.8957982 >>8957976 3D vector map information. Hence why the results are in 3D. 2D information could only produce 2D results.

Anonymous Sun May 29 15:02:35 2022 No.8958018

>>8957982
The vertices for a map are stored in the VERTEXES lump, which consists of a raw sequence of x, y coordinates as pairs of 16-bit signed integers.

Physically cannot be 3D vector map information. Since you obviously didn't read the thread:

>2D vector map data cannot display "3D data" geometrically inside a 2D vector map, it's a bunch of attribute descriptions applied to the vector map data interpreted by the game engine and then rendered. Acting like the 2D vector map data doesn't contain 3D data just because it isn't geometrically represented is like acting the 2D vector map data doesn't exist just because you can't see it during regular gameplay.

>Oh right, that is how you're acting. I'm sure that won't be confusing for you.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 15:06:26 2022 No.8958029 >>8958018 The map contains height information. The third dimension. No matter how hard you try to pretend it isn't there.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 15:14:08 2022 No.8958054 >>8958029 Not geometrically. No matter how hard you try to pretend the vertices for a map are stored in the VERTEXES lump, which consists of a raw sequence of x, y, and z coordinates as pairs of 16-bit signed integers.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 15:18:38 2022 No.8958070 >>8958054 It is there geometrically. Literally geometric information for all three dimensions. Your pet file format was never a requirement. The information doesn't stop existing just because it isn't stored in the way you wanted it to be stored.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 15:32:45 2022 No.8958113 If you can't place a room over another one it is not 3D.

Anonymous Sun May 29 15:33:19 2022 No.8958116

>>8958070
>The third dimension is encoded into the 2D vector map so the 2D vector map is 3D
No, objectively. Actually try.
>Your pet file format was never a requirement
A lump is a portion of a .wad file. I didn't invent lump files. Woulda been a five second search to learn that.
>The information doesn't stop existing just because it isn't stored in the way you wanted it to be stored.
Ironic, considering your refusal to accept the objective fact that the vertices for a map are stored in the VERTEXES lump, which consists of a raw sequence of x, y coordinates as pairs of 16-bit signed integers.

Anonymous Sun May 29 15:41:30 2022 No.8958135

>>8958116
You admit it contains information for the 3rd dimension. That's the same as admitting the map is 3d. The only requirement for it to be 3d was to contain information necessary to get 3 dimensions. There is no requirement that the data be formatted in any specific way. Jump up and down all you want.

Anonymous Sun May 29 15:54:11 2022 No.8958174 [DELETED]

File: 79 KB, 338x370, 7TBcSDx.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>8958135
>You admit it contains information for the 3rd dimension
That information is encoded into the 2D vector map.
>That's the same as admitting the map is 3d.
It's still a 2D vector map. The 3D info is only useful to the render procedure.
>There is no requirement that the data be formatted in any specific way.
That's kind of how game engines work. And computer systems in general.

Draw four points on a sheet of paper in the form of a square and connect them. Now in your head (or if that's too hard you can write it inside the box), attribute the top of that box's height equal to the box's length. Congratulations, you have created a 2D vector map of a 3D box. And all it took was half your mental bandwidth.

Anonymous Sun May 29 16:01:07 2022 No.8958206

>>8958174
Computer files aren't stored in your imaginary drawings, they are stores of information. It contains 3 dimensions of information. It doesn't matter what flat shape you are imagining it in, because all 3 dimensions are accounted for in the computer data. Your flat imagination doesn't exist in the game and doesn't represent what the data contains.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 16:03:53 2022 No.8958219 >>8958174 >The 3D info is only useful to the render procedure Are you retarded. Level collision uses the 3d info, its core to the gameplay.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 16:06:57 2022 No.8958235 >>8958219 He's been told all this a million times. He doesn't understand.

Anonymous Sun May 29 16:32:26 2022 No.8958325 [DELETED]

>>8958206
Paper is also a store of information. For our purposes, we chose a sheet of paper because we were drawing a 2D vector map. I asked you to use your brain for the height because I didn't want you thinking there was actual writing indicating z-coordinates on Doom's 2D vector map. I genuinely thought if I only said "write on the box" you would say "well the game map doesn't have writing so hah" because that's how little I respect your intelligence.
>It contains 3 dimensions of information
No matter how assured you are in your denial, the id Tech 1 engine objectively stores its map vertices as a list of x,y coordinates. That's why I chose paper as an example, because paper can be used to represent 2D vectors on its face. You can make a 2D vector map of a box by drawing four points in a box shape and connecting the edges. You can make that box have 3D data by attributing a height to it, whether that's in a program, on the paper itself, up your ass to reach your head, etc. Doesn't matter. Adding that 3D data doesn't make the vector drawing any less 2D. If you apply a render procedure to that sheet of paper, the sheet of paper doesn't suddenly stop existing.
>>8958219
Level collision happens on a 2D plane, because that 3D data is encoded onto a 2D vector map.
>>8958235
Project harder.

Anonymous Sun May 29 16:47:36 2022 No.8958381

>>8958325
If you were imagining it the same way the game was using it, then you would come out with the same 3d results. You don't, so you're clearly doing it wrong.

>stores its map vertices as a list of x,y coordinates
It also stores the height in the game files. It doesn't have to put it in the same location. That's just your imaginary requirement that isn't real. It contains all three dimensions. The fact that you keep going back to the file format, is your way of admitting that you want to pretend the data isn't there because you have no actual argument that would allow you to actually ignore the 3rd dimension of data.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 16:50:19 2022 No.8958390 >>8958325 >3D data is encoded admits its 3d >a 2D vector map pretends it means something else

Anonymous Sun May 29 17:17:07 2022 No.8958484

>>8958381
I am getting the same results, but my explanations are clearly too technical for you to grasp. You can get 3D data from a 2D map by scanning it along the edge, across the first dimension. That's how raycasting works.
>But Doom isn't a raycaster
It's a BSP raycaster. It's still using raycasting, just in a nonlinear order across the screen. It's explained above.
>It doesn't have to put it in the same location. That's just your imaginary requirement that isn't real.
I know what imaginary means, but thanks. A 2D plane having two dimensions is indeed a requirement of geometry. Same goes for a 3D space requiring three dimensions. Either the map vertices are stored as 2D or 3D data and no matter how badly you don't want to believe it,
>the vertices for a map are stored in the VERTEXES lump, which consists of a raw sequence of x, y coordinates as pairs of 16-bit signed integers.
This doesn't mean there is no height data, it means the height data is effectively laid on top of the x,y plane. Because the height data travels vertically, it doesn't affect the shape of the 2D vector data. This is how you can represent 3D data on a 2D vector map.
You have yet to disprove this because you still don't realise a lump is just a part of a .wad aka Doom map data

>Ignore the 3rd dimension of data
If the data is encoded it's still there, you just can't see it in the 2D vector map. The one ignoring it would be you.
>>8958390
Way to admit you don't understand how 3D data can be encoded into a 2D vector map.

Anonymous Sun May 29 17:25:50 2022 No.8958527

>>8958484
There is nothing technical about your "explanations". You're simply wrong.
Raycasting is just a render method. You have not made an argument by bringing it up.
BSP raycasting is just a render method. You have not made an argument by bringing it up.

Height data is on top of the other 2 dimensions because that is literally what 3d is. That is what 3d is. All three dimensions are there. A fucking cube is just a square with another dimension added to it. You cannot have 3 dimensions of data and not be 3d. You are confusing your bias about the file format for something else. Learn some geometry.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 18:55:43 2022 No.8958758 >>8958527 this https://google.com/search?q=cube+is+just+a+square+with+another+dimension+added+to+it

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 19:15:48 2022 No.8958810 >>8928289 it doesn't matter if it technically is, what matter is the illusion of 3D which is all that's necessary.

>>	Anonymous Sun May 29 19:27:01 2022 No.8958830 >>8958810 >>8928289 It's 3d. A person could nitpick about the inability to control the game upwards, but a jump button would be pretty absurd in a driving game like Outrun. Its 3d mostly comes from its ability to provide dept perception to the player.

Anonymous Sun May 29 22:58:40 2022 No.8959442

>>8957865
I get that you've austically attached to modern 3D rendering methods as your basis for what a 3D game is, but you're way off base. In action nothing about Doom is 2D.
>appear 3D
same as literally any other 3D game
This is your ignorance showing. You think modern 3D games are somehow showing true-3D worlds, they're not . They're not at all. It's all illusions. You're nothing more than a kid with a modicum of knowledge thinking you understand how this shit works while making it hilariously clear you don't.

>>	Anonymous Mon May 30 00:57:57 2022 No.8959763 >>8931416 mk64 isn't but gran turismo is

Anonymous Mon May 30 02:15:46 2022 No.8959924

If an object has visual height, width and length, it's 3D. That's the difinition.
"illusion" of 3D is 3D. The means by which it is achieved, or the limitations of the presentation are completely irrelevant for the definition.
If you can move in 3 directions that's 3D.
You should have fucking learned it in 6th or 7th grade geometry class.
If both elements of game is 3D, then game is 3D.
Arguing against it with "akchualy" is inventing your own definition.

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