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/vr/ - Retro Games

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8831929 No.8831929 [Reply] [Original]

a moment of silence for all the retro consoles that laid down their lives for some retard's botched composite/RGB mod

>> No.8831941

>>8831929
PPU can be replaced with a clone chip, you should tell him so he doesn’t fry any more. Be proactive anon.

>> No.8831947
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8831947

>>8831929
It was in 2007. He could just buy another one for $20

>> No.8831954

That's nothing. You could make an entire mountain out of SIDs that died from people doing dumb shit like plugging their C64 directly into a stereo amp.

>> No.8831968

>>8831941
if you mean Dendy PPU sometimes they can be found online. they are actually better than the real thing in some ways (eg. no OAM decay from not keeping the sprite table refreshed every frame)

>> No.8831972
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8831972

>>8831947
You can still buy them for $20 or less. Famicom is life.
>>8831954
Why would plugging the RCA audio out of your computer into a stereo amp (what RCA audio cables were designed to be plugged into) be bad thing? And why would anyone assume that?

>> No.8831973

>>8831968
I was referring to the cheap Chinese ones (might be the same I suppose). This is good knowledge though if I ever want to repair one. Thank you!

>> No.8831983

>>8831972
I don't remember exactly why but you could ask on Lemon64. I know they were adamant that C64s should not be plugged directly into an amp and it will blow up the SID.

>> No.8831984

>>8831973
Do they make clones of the RICOH, with the sound generator and everything? I'm only aware of NOACs and more general 6502s.

>> No.8831989

>>8831983
Bizarre, everything Commodore made was such shit quality.

>> No.8831996

>>8831984
Older Famiclones from the 80s-90s used a complete reversed engineered chipset. These are usually pin compatible with the real thing and can be used as drop-in replacements.

>> No.8832004

And on top of that, hot plugging audio cables or accidentally plugging the audio into the video is not good for an SID. It does seem that most of the time bad SIDs are caused by the analog filters getting damaged (by ESD and whatnot) rather than the core chip circuitry.

>> No.8832006

>>8831989
Seems like it, monitors being the exception.

>> No.8832008

they have SwinSID now as a modern SID replacement

>> No.8832016

>>8831996
This I know, I guess I thought you were implying you could go buy new ones somewhere. Thanks anon.
>>8832006
True

>> No.8832031

Famicoms are normally pretty reliable. Sometimes capacitors or traces have to be repaired or replaced, but the CPU/PPU don't usually fail unless you do stuff like ill-advised mods or zapping the cartridge slot with static electricity.

>> No.8832043

https://www.famicomworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=12196.0

>The Famicom worked totally fine after I did a AV mod and
...

>> No.8832094

I ain't doing any RGB mods on my toaster NES. I don't care if it looks like Lego blocks on my HDTV (though I do have a CRT on hand) it's not worth the risk of producing magic smoke.

>> No.8832116

>>8831989
Commodore gear is "special" in that way. A lot of it's because they used some barbaric 1970s chip fabrication processes that were already obsolete by the early 80s that resulted in chips that become little ovens when running.

>> No.8832131

>>8832031
A good thing about Everdrives is unlike real cartridges you don't have to power cycle the thing to switch games which reduces stress on the components.

>> No.8832254

>>8832116
Indeed, that's what I've come to understand. I'm an Atari / Apple fag in terms of my retro computing preferences and knowledge, so I only know what I've read about the C64 and its ilk.
>>8832131
There's really not that much stress happening to anything on a Famicom, but I love that feature on my EverDrive at any rate.

>> No.8832374

>>8832254
>There's really not that much stress happening to anything on a Famicom
This was an issue on VIC-20s and C64s because the ICs do get hot and are subjected to greater heating and cooling, and this was due to the caveman-tier process used--the VIC-II gets especially toasty and putting heat sinks on them is recommended and many of the guys on Lemon64 have done so with theirs. The process Commodore used was obsolete before the 70s were out; Intel and Motorola had adopted the newer HMOS process by 1978-79. When they did try to introduce HMOS it took three years to get it right and that resulted in all those PLA and TED failures.

The Famicom chipset used HMOS like every sane manufacturer did by 1983 so the ICs just get a little warm.

>> No.8832402

>>8832254
>Indeed, that's what I've come to understand. I'm an Atari / Apple fag in terms of my retro computing preferences and
Vintage Macs can have quite a few "interesting" problems including shitty caps, batteries that destroy motherboards, and plastic that crumbles to dust in your hands. And you better know how to discharge a CRT before working in there.

>> No.8832408

>>8832402
Apple were trash relative to what they charged you for their shit. What you were really paying for was the brand name and "mystique."

>> No.8832467

>>8831954
Wtf? I once did exactly this but it killed my VIC-II, not my SID. I never knew what even went wrong

>> No.8832496
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8832496

>>8832402
I do know how to discharge the CRT in a compact Mac, and I only own machines from the radial cap period and I've yet to have any leak or any logic-boards die. Analog boards and CRTs are another story. Also, the plastic was good too, the Apple II to Mac Plus era was peak Apple and their hardware was actually excellent.
>>8832408
You're a fool if you genuinely conflate your copypasta opinions about modern Apple with 1977-1985 Apple. They certainly didn't have much "mystique" or a recognizable brand name when the Apple II launched.

>> No.8832557
File: 84 KB, 800x899, Macintosh_Performa_5200.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8832557

>>8832496
Some mid-90s PowerMacs have absolutely dreadful cases with tissue paper plastic. However in Apple's defense they were almost dead at that time and had very little money.

>> No.8832637

>>8832557
that thing was just a shitty fleet computer for public schools

>> No.8832775

>>8832374
Some of the hardware failures on them might have been reduced with a reset button so you don't have to constantly power cycle the things every time you want to run a different program. That could be a reason the C128s are a lot sturdier. Aside from better PSU they have a reset button.

>> No.8832790

>>8832775
then again C64Cs are quite a lot less failure-prone than breadbins as well. likely because the newer HMOS chips in them don't get as hot and the case is better ventilated.

>> No.8832901

>>8832116
>A lot of it's because they used some barbaric 1970s chip fabrication processes that were already obsolete by the early 80s that resulted in chips that become little ovens when running.
wasn't even close to "little ovens" running, unless you had a bad board full of broken chips - that's the only time they get hot. still a good test to see what chip is dead or not. does it burn your finger after a second or two? yes? then it's dead.

>> No.8832913 [DELETED] 

>>8832496
>You're a fool if you genuinely conflate your copypasta opinions about modern Apple with 1977-1985 Apple. They certainly didn't have much "mystique" or a recognizable brand name when the Apple II launched.
true. this was some retarded level of faggotry that appeared around the same time as the first iphone. it was part of apple's rebranding strategy, except they didn't buy long time apple users with this change. we know what the real apple is like: barely competent. adding mystique and other nonsenes was merely seen as a desperate attempt to remain relevant. it was still the same garbage company run by a low iq imbecile that couldn't code, couldn't engineer and barely knew how a computer worked. apple's best times was end of 70s until they abandoned powerpc and turned into generic PC computers that could also run windows.

>> No.8832915

>>8832496
>You're a fool if you genuinely conflate your copypasta opinions about modern Apple with 1977-1985 Apple. They certainly didn't have much "mystique" or a recognizable brand name when the Apple II launched.
true. this was some retarded level of faggotry that appeared around the same time as the first iphone. it was part of apple's rebranding strategy, except they didn't buy long time apple users with this change. we know what the real apple is like: barely competent. adding mystique and other nonsense was merely seen as a desperate attempt to remain relevant. it was still the same garbage company run by a low iq imbecile that couldn't code, couldn't engineer and barely knew how a computer worked. apple's best times was end of 70s until they abandoned powerpc and turned into generic PC computers that could also run windows.

>> No.8832991

>>8832901
https://www.lemon64.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=76286&start=0

This is documented here. The VIC-II can get as hot as 150F. It's a busy chip, aside from graphics processing it refreshes the RAM and handles bus arbitration for the whole computer, and it runs internally at about 7Mhz.

>> No.8833148

>>8831929
doesn't matter, there's millions of them, and emulation becomes increasingly accurate while the old oscillators continue drifting away from spec

>> No.8833787

>>8832557
I had two of these, they were both throwaways from my high school as >>8832637 mentioned, and the 5200 series are considered even by Apple fans to be absolute garbage. They make perfect "bridge machines" between new and ancient Macs by nature of having classic Macintosh serial ports and the option for Ethernet.

>> No.8834045

>>8832915
I’m pretty sure Apple’s scummy practices and the mainstream obsession with them started a few years before that with the iPod, which was just an overly complicated MP3 player with DRM.

>> No.8834194

>>8832374
a C64 mainboard has 30 ICs on it, a Famicom has 9. more components means more heat generated.

>> No.8834226

>>8834194
Way to completely ignore the explanation and replace it with your hilariously wrong assertion. Your cell phone has tenfold the amount of components than a C64, which one runs hotter?

>> No.8834246

>>8834226
An iPhone has about 10 ICs in it but is also not using chips made with a process from the Ford Administration

>> No.8834304

>>8834246
Some of those ICs are internally more complex than an entire C64, that was the whole point. Despite their complexity, they don't run nearly as hot as a C64. Much like how the Famicom doesn't.

>> No.8834337

i see the assembly language LARPer is going to continue to ignore anon's statements that an iPhone doesn't have chips made with a 6 micrometer process from the 70s. this was a very janky process with a large chip die (a magnifying glass is enough to make out individual details in the die) that sucks a lot of juice and gets hotter than balls. the chips in an iPhone are 10 nm and use only 2.5V of power instead of triple 5V/12V/-5V lines.

>> No.8834359

>>8834337
the 6 µm process was superseded by the newer 3 µm process in the late 70s. Commodore didn't introduce 3 µm until 1982 and it took three years before they got it to work reliably.

>> No.8834551

https://archive.wakarimasen.moe/vr/thread/8834431/#q8834534
Ok well I'd have to check into that.

>> No.8834739

>>8834359
VIC-IIs used a 5 µm process and SID was a mix of 6 and 7 µm.

>> No.8834795

>>8831968
>they are actually better than the real thing in some ways (eg. no OAM decay from not keeping the sprite table refreshed every frame)

That's neat though, but not of a practical use unless there is some bootleg out there specifically designed for the Dendy.

>> No.8835148

>>8834337
the Famicom probably uses 3 nanometer chips since that was the standard process most fabs used at the time

>> No.8835164

>>8834194
It's five ICs, right?

>CPU
>PPU
>2 SRAMs
>74LS latch to read the controllers

>> No.8835176

>>8835164
I think so. C64 for comparison has 4 ROMs, VIC-II, SID, PLA, 2 CIAs, 8 DRAMs, 2 SRAMs, and various TTLs to tie everything together. More chips=more heat and probably more "shock" on everything when the power is turned on. Later PCB revisions had fewer components.

>> No.8835562

>>8835176
there are people who will pay large sums for silver label C64s from 1982 despite their shitty video quality and potential major reliability issues

>> No.8836071

>>8835562
the ones with the ceramic VIC-II? yeah they're pretty shitty.

>> No.8837741

>>8831929
Too many retard listening to e-celebs talking about RGB mod bullshit.