[ 3 / biz / cgl / ck / diy / fa / ic / jp / lit / sci / vr / vt ] [ index / top / reports ] [ become a patron ] [ status ]
2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/vr/ - Retro Games

View post   
File: 111 KB, 900x675, snes-ghost-chaser-densei.900x.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8822710 No.8822710 [Reply] [Original]

Getting good at beat em ups involves a lot of esoteric knowledge. Positioning, crowd control, lane control, herding, dropping combos, i-frame abuse, screen advancement control, learning weird boss and enemy ai, understanding attack priority and the finer details of their hit boxes.

Nothing outright teaches you this. You just have to learn it yourself which filters out the idiots.

Do you think this is bad for the genre's recognition.

>> No.8822717

>>8822710
Fighting games have the same problem and everyone sucked it up. The only thing bad for the genre's recognition is the fact that it's a dead genre.

>> No.8822723

>>8822710
Beat em ups were always a pretty trash genre. 1CCing them usually boils down to some arcane exploits because the game just breaks its own rules to extract quarters from players. No game were enemies randomly get i-frames to escape player combos is well designed.

>> No.8822729

>>8822723
I can't think of any beat em up where enemies i-frames are "random" as you say. They are all predictable.

And they are usually there for good reasons. ie play knocks down a boss. Boss gets i-frames when he gets up so the player can't just fucking stand over his body mashing attack so he never gets a chance to do anything.

>> No.8822731

>>8822729
The AI in Mortal Kombat II is predictable but it's still bullshit and cheats.

>> No.8822753

>>8822731
Mortal Kombat 2 isn't a beat em up

>> No.8822756

>>8822753
That's besides the point. Games can predictably break their own rules.

>> No.8822758

>>8822756
Your chain of posts started explicitly talking about beat em ups. You're just being schizoid now.

>> No.8822761

>>8822758
You implied that as long as something was predictable it was fair.

>> No.8822776

>>8822761
I merely said the i-frames bosses get in beat em ups are nessiary to make there be any challenge. If they didn't have i-frames when they got up would never get a chance to attack.

I think you're just looking to have an argument about how mortal kombat bosses or something and you decided to do it in a thread about beat em ups.

>> No.8822778

>>8822776
>i-frames bosses get in beat em ups are nessiary to make there be any challenge
Truly a trash genre.

>> No.8822782
File: 87 KB, 696x442, 1635283561772.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8822782

So rather than talk about an entire genre, could we talk about a specific game and go from there? Maybe SoR2 since it's possible many/most people using this board owned this cart, so they played it a lot? As opposed to arcades where you couldn't necessarily go every day due to cost, parents.

>> No.8822826

>>8822782
SoR2 at least isn't as cheap as 99% of arcade beat em ups. Those ninjas on hard and above tend to make me throw controllers though.

>> No.8822832
File: 36 KB, 480x360, 1630837568988.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8822832

>>8822826
>Blocks your path.

>> No.8823085

>>8822710
Guardians seems nicely balanced around 1cc play, nothing's too cheap and having a huge moveset makes you versatile as fuck. You can quick lane hop, combo your string combo into specials and juggle like crazy. Definitely one an attempt seems reasonable - i've gotten to the last stage on a credit before.
Something like Caddies and Dinos just seems like spamming run attacks and comboing into throws the entire game. And then Slicer ruins it all with untelegraphed, offscreen slashes. I've only succeeded with Mustapha by continuously running dropkicking him from a bit of distance on wakeup repeatedly, Mess can have a bit more fun iframe throwing. Playing on from then there's midget gunner who mutates into three fucking forms and I lost interest, as i'm usually on my last life by stage 5 anyway.

Some games are nicely balanced, others want money, I guess. Not a trash genre, just best enjoyed when you find 'your game', or if a pal wants to creditfeed runthrough with you. Slowbeef does those Fight Palace vids where he and his buddy are absolutely terrible at them but the stupid shit in these games makes for good fun riffing on.

>> No.8823290

>>8822832
You can kill him by repeating jump kicks. Put a little distance between you and him, get in his lane, and it forces him to to a jet punch or he goes up then dives. Both of those are countered with a jump kick.

>> No.8823831

Phantasy Star 5 looks great

>> No.8823968

>>8822710
>Getting good at beat em ups involves a lot of esoteric knowledge
You literally just need to smash the attack button until the enemies are dead.

>> No.8823985

>>8823968
>t. never completed a beat-em-up

>> No.8823992

>>8822710
Most beat em ups depend on finding the one exploit the AI can't handle. Like in Turtles In Time dashing into foot soldiers and using that window to either throw them at the screen or slam them into the ground gets you through most of the game.

>> No.8824051

>>8823992
That's just it though, it's not like that knowledge and dexterity is just granted to you as a birthright. It takes refined skill to do it consistently, just like any other action game.

>> No.8824465

>>8822710
Not a genre i really care for, but I fucking love Ghost Chaser!

>> No.8825780

>>8823992
>>8824051
Horrible. Horrible analysis from someone who clearly only plays console beat em ups. Fucking turtles? really?

All enemies having one thing that works on them tends to be a console only thing. In arcade beat em ups each enemy has more distinct ai so what's effective on one might not be effective on another. This makes the game expontially more complicated and thus harder because the enemies are all mixed up and what's effective against enemy type A may not be doable at the moment because he's being guarded by enemy type B.

This is a large reason arcade beat em ups filter so many people.

>> No.8825796

>>8825780
>I am unaware turtles in time was an arcade game first
It isn't the platform that determines how character AI functions, kek

>> No.8825879
File: 2.00 MB, 2016x1512, Go_Straight.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8825879

>>8822710
One can just keep playing and over time find what works. It is not required to observe others and their techniques, but that's why they could join in and help out. It is part of what I find so enjoyable about the games, it can be a communal experience.

>> No.8825904

>>8825879
Best poster on /vr/.

>> No.8825925

>>8825796
Nigger it doesn't matter where your shitty turtles game come from. You completly missed the point and just making incoherent monky sounds now

The point is majority of arcade games worth playing have a greater variety of ai then their console counterparts. The existence of one or a dozen games that don't follow this rule doesn't change it. This is self-evident to anyone who has played the best games in this genre with a decent amount of skill.

>> No.8825957

>>8825879
If we're dealing with non-idiots this completely true. Try different tactics and analyze what worked and didn't work then refine your tactics until.

Not everyone can do that. I'm starting to think the ability to learn from past mistakes is actually an uncommon ability. I mean everyone can learn if the situation is really obvious and there are only a few things to consider. But anything with a lot of variables and the majority of people lose the ability to learn. They can handle figuring out when to press the jump button to get from one platform to another but anything beyond that and their brains shut down.

I've seen people play Souls games or modern shooters and they will literally do the exact same actions failing 8 times in a row. Like virtually identical inputs.

>> No.8825981

>>8825780
>All enemies having one thing that works on them tends to be a console only thing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n51O2l5aduU

>> No.8825985

>>8825925
>It isn't the platform that determines how character AI functions, kek
Feel free to address this point when you finally understand how it relates to yours.

>> No.8825987

>>8825981
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irBsakPCcyU
kek

>> No.8825993

>>8825985
I know you're gonna accuse savestate cheating, this spic teaches the loop in real time here
https://youtu.be/Ju2zLPMe6bM?t=830

>> No.8825995

>>8825993
*teaches how to do the ai loop

>> No.8825997

>>8825993
I'm aware that beat-em-up games have exploitable attacks, thanks.

>> No.8826000

>>8825997
Arcade games LITERALLY CANNOT be looped

>> No.8826004

>>8825997
Honestly arcadefags reek of desperation, these games have 1 attack button and the depth of a puddle. Being unfairly hard doesn't equal complexity quite the contrary.

>> No.8826005

>>8826000
Well, that video would indicate otherwise. Sorry your assertions turned out to be conjecture.

>> No.8826007

>>8826005
Oh double down to save face, you nigger.

>> No.8826010

>>8822782
Game's a little too long for a beat 'em up you beat in one sitting.

>> No.8826013

>>8826007
But the video clearly shows it's possible. Methinks you're projecting a little.

>> No.8826017

>>8825981
Another shitty beat em up. I'm talking about the good ones.

>>8825985
You keep trying to address my point which is about the overall state of the best beat em ups. By mentioning shitty games.

You like Konami beat em ups? Go play Violent Storm. It's a much better game then their earlier attempts and a solid example of how the arcade ones have less samey ais. You'll actually learn something about the genre. Or you can keep making monkey sounds.

>> No.8826024

>>8826017
Nobody ever plays new games it's all OG Final Fight with you fags. Nobody wants to play Knights of Valour 3 or Oriental Legend 2 even though they're hard as balls.

>> No.8826030

>>8826004
Let's take your claim at face value. That arcade beat em ups are not complex.

Then what is? There's like a dozen attacks in OP's image and the all flow into each other. Plus there's non-attacks moves like meter charging, blocking, countering, and two types of jumps.

If that's not complicated what /vr/ games are?

>> No.8826035

>>8826024
>Nobody ever plays new games it's all OG Final Fight with you fags

>Didn't mention final fight. Mentioned violent storm which is a later game.

?

>> No.8826045

>>8826017
I wasn't the one that brought up turtles, it was just an example from some guy I replied to. In fact, I haven't used any examples because we were speaking generally. Nowhere did you mention "the best" beat-em-ups, you only said beat-em-ups. The fact you're now being more specific is blatant goalpost movement and is effectively special pleading.

Face it, character movement design is what determines the depth and complexity of the challenge. That movement design isn't exclusive to arcade platforms, it's based on design documents and standard coding. Really shameful that I had to spell it out like that.

>> No.8826074

>>8826045
Whatever symantatics you want there are far fewer console beat em ups don't have easily exploitable ai then arcade ones. There are probably a hundred plus arcade beat em ups so it wouldn't be hard to find 20 or 30 with ai that all fall for the same trick, but if you limit the list to only games that are worth playing the ai on average is going to be more demanding.

The platform IS relevant because the platform is related to the audience and games are designed for a certain audience in mind. Arcades were for an older audience that could stomach more complex play. Early consoles were a kid's thing and children need a lower level of complexity to be challenged.

This is all just common sense.

>Face it, character movement design is what determines the depth and complexity of the challenge.
You're right and wrong. It's a factor but not the only. King of the Dragons has depth and it has a bare bones movelist lacking even a throw or combo string. If you give the player a more complex moveset you can then up the complexity of the enemies since the player has a greater variety of ways to deal with various situations. Granted it's possible to fuck up the balance and give the player lots of tools and the enemies are not tuned up enough.

There's a reason that beat em ups got more and more complex movesets as the genre went on.

This part of your post was fair more interesting and if you'd like to elborate on how movement design contributes to depth and complexity I think it would improve the thread and be enjoyable to read.

>> No.8826391

>>8826074
Okay, I suppose it was just myself speaking generally. I personally believe that any enemy in any beat-em-up has a weakness built into (or left in) their moveset which can be exploited, and these weaknesses are covered by adding complementary enemies, as I believe you had mentioned earlier. Good enemy placement is definitely a balance between utilizing specific enemies that make intersecting movements versus endlessly dumping enemies seemingly at random.

That said, I still disagree that the platform matters because I am speaking generally. With every game considered, the good and the bad, you can have a more complete picture of the genre as a whole. A lot of people write it all off as tedious, and they're free to think that. I personally grew up playing stuff like Golden Axe and Altered Beast, not complex games at all but good fun, especially with a second player. I'm probably biased.

When I mentioned character movement design influencing depth and complexity, I was also referring to how certain games can give up complexity without losing depth, much like that King of the Dragons game you had mentioned. While I agree it was best implemented in arcades, it isn't exclusive to them. There absolutely was an overlap with console owners and arcade patrons, much like the programmers that made it all.

Complexity is directly related to the amount of actions associated with any given button press. Most games may opt for the standard punch/kick layout, but once these games start adding holds, throws, and special moves there is a nice level of depth without laying too heavily into complexity. I feel that's the happy medium for the genre, accessable enough for regulars to pick it up and have a but of fun meanwhile still maintaining a high difficulty ceiling for core players that want to push their skill to the game's limit.

It's a shame the genre is as over hated as it is.

>> No.8826501

>>8822731
>He watched MVG's latest vid

>> No.8827161

>>8826501
I don't get it.

>> No.8827198

>>8822710
As someone who 1ccs bumps, you're being pretentious. The genre isn't any harder to learn than any other and each game has its own strategies to 1cc.

>> No.8827228

>>8827198
>Pretention? On MY 4chan?

>> No.8827232

>>8822710
Literally none of that is esoteric. If you need a tutorial to tell you that kind of just-underneath-the-surface mechanics I'm afraid your brain is unsalvageable.

>> No.8827238

>>8827232
I think OP is just trying to make himself feel intelligent for being able to do things that aren't that impressive. You see it a lot on this site.

>> No.8827396

>>8822717
fighting games are pretty dead

>> No.8828291

>>8827198
OP here.

I think as far as reaching a basic skill floor they are more esoteric. If you've ever seen a novice play beat em ups they don't pick up the fundmentals as fast as say a shmup.

I think this contributes negatively to the genre's popularity.

>> No.8829364
File: 740 KB, 2592x1944, I_do_not_mind_the_repetition.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8829364

>>8825904
>>8825957
I guess it is still okay if they are having fun. I don't mind carrying the group sometimes. I remember encouraging others to join in at the arcades. It was still a good time with strangers tackling Krang in Turtles or showing others to maximize their last quarter in the original Double Dragon by elbowing everyone. Sometimes just passing on a bit of game knowledge to others is a joy in itself, at least for me.

>> No.8829560

>>8829364
Groups where there are huge skill gaps between the levels are great.