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/vr/ - Retro Games

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881705 No.881705[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

Was Final Fantasy Tactics supposed to be anti-Christianity?

How exactly?

>> No.881785

All Japanese games are anti-christian.

When have you ever seen a church organization in a JRPG and had them be NOT evil?

>> No.881812

>>881785
>When have you ever seen a church organization in anything and had them be NOT evil?

Fixed.

>> No.881816

>>881785
DQ Quest ?

>> No.881905

>>881816
Dairy Queen Quest is the exception.

>> No.881949

>>881785
I think the churches in some games are just generic revive points.

>> No.882287

>>881785
Castlevania.

>> No.882871

>>881785
Shining Force.

>> No.882918

>>882287
Aren't most church guys in Castlevania secretly the villain or willing to kill your hero?

>> No.883303
File: 934 B, 64x96, FFT_Ajora_Portrait.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
883303

Because it features a religion built on the deification of an ordinary man who performed a miracle and upon whose death his murderers were struck by a (super?)natural disaster. Derp, parallels.

>> No.883328

>>882918
The only antagonist from a religious organization I can remember is that old dude from one of the DS Metroidvanias.

Said protagonist was also from the same church so that sorta nullifies that.

>> No.883330

>>881705
I don't believe that the game was so much anti-Christian or anti-religion as it was against religious organizations having political power. Because when this theme gets used in video games, everybody instantly thinks of the Catholic Church during the Medieval period (because it's the most notable example of that happening in history to most westerners) and they read into it that it's anti-Christian.

>> No.883339
File: 2 KB, 115x125, 1372985524732.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
883339

>>881905

>> No.883338

>>883330
This guy gets it.

>> No.883340

I'd argue that the real message is not blindly believing everything an organization would pump out, no matter how sacred and untouchable they may seem. Religious organizations just seemed like the next step since Matsuno was already rehashing the concept from Tactics Ogre, whose focus was rather on a conflict between ethnic groups and the nobility that were playing both sides.

>> No.883507

The real message is that society deifies cult leaders (like Steve Jobs) while the real heroes are forgotten (Engelbart, Ritchie).

>> No.883702

>>883507
The real message is that society deifies pop franchises (like Final Fantasy) while the real heroes are forgotten (Tactics Ogre).

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

I don't actually believe this at all. FFT>TO.

>> No.884281

>>881785
Ys and Sword of Vermillion.

>> No.884305

So was Breath of Fire 2.
Breath of Fire 4 was anti-budist

>> No.884320

Final Fantasy's in general are like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLhiWw3pzQk

>> No.884326

>>884305
>Breath of Fire 4 was anti-budist
What? Care to elaborate on that?

>> No.884330

>>884320
>unfunny
>doesn't make very solid points
>uses awkward language like "is against religion and the idea of god itself"
>edgy atheist confirmed

>> No.884340

>>884320
I fucking hate this kid. He doesn't "get it".
>LOOK AT HOW THEY DEBASE RELIGIONS IN THEIR TOPICS ALL THE TIME
It's largely because the Japanese have been doing shit like Shintoism and Zen Buddhism for centuries. Being devout or "spiritual" isn't the concept, it's specifically the organization of religious bodies in governmental structures. He fucking overblew FFX to hell and of all things, pulled FF Legend out of his ass to justify his thesis.
They're not "anti-" anything, as another anon pointed out, FF tactics isn't taking any person who plays the game
>YOU A CHRISTIAN? HAHAHA, OH WOW
just as
>>884305
BoF IV isn't grabbing everybody who identifies as a buddhist and going
>YOU BELIEVE IN SIDHARTHA GALTAMA'S LIES? OH WOW.
Again, its more about the perceptual rise of myth/legend and religion as structures of human society, and less an attack on faith

>> No.884550

Final Fantasy VII is anti-Jewish.
Jenova is a thinly veiled reference to Jehova, the evil Jew god whose poisonous influence is destroying the race of the Ancients (white people)

>> No.884573

>>884550
>>>/pol/

>> No.884865

>>884550
>this is the same god as in christianity and islam
you didn't really think that through didya?

>> No.884885

>>881705
I don't know aboust FFT specifically, but Matthew Patrick (a.k.a. The Game Theorist) did an episode about how many FF games have anti-religious/anti-dogmatic undertones. Japanese people in general aren't anti-spiritual, but they don't believe in the notion of their being only one single god ruling over everything. I guess the FF games can serve an allegory about how Western religions can be cult-like in comparison to their views.

>> No.884904
File: 26 KB, 320x180, Z.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
884904

>>884550
FF7 has as much to do with the Jews as Neon Genesis Evangelion had to do with Judeo-Christianity: Absolutely Nothing

>>884885
Japan has had their problems with their own religious cults.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_new_religions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aum_Shinrikyo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin_gas_attack_on_the_Tokyo_subway

>> No.884908

>>881705
>Was Final Fantasy Tactics supposed to be anti-Christianity?
Of course not, it wasn't anti-anything. The messiah turned to be a magical monster sorcerer. It's just a fantastic plot device used to show that the Ajorans weren't the good guys.

>> No.884916

>>884550
And think of all the money you can acquire, and yet you can't lend it out usuriously! Meanwhile, DW4 is clearly pro-Jew.

>> No.884963
File: 43 KB, 234x595, 6kefka-b3.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
884963

>>881705
The catholic church is your enemy.

The last boss is Jeebus.

But really, Final Fantasy just... does that, all the time. Look at FFIV, you actually kill Geesus, Marey, Yahwee, a bunch of anguls and Satin, in the last battle.

Come on, you guys know you like to shove swords up Jezoos' and Merry's butts...

Really, gods are just the perfect villains for RPGs, they are powerful as fuck and they are evil pieces of shit, it's just perfect.

>> No.884969

>>884963
You are strange.

>> No.885002

>This entire thread
You guys would have a field day with Megaten

>> No.885004

>>883330
The game's message is one of equality. It doesn't matter how you were born, because in the end, peasants, nobles and gods are all the same, and that the powerful shouldn't be allowed to own the weak.

I would say that it is both against religious structures and the concept of god, an all powerful dictator.

>> No.885009

>>884969
I know. Being so unserious does that to you.

>> No.885053

>>884963
All of Amano's humanoid creature designs look like renaissance bullshit. I wouldn't read too much into it.

>> No.885061

>>883702
This was a horrible post and you should probably return to /v/.

The game was about the church in it having political power, manipulating both sides of a war, and sacrificing humans for their cause on all sides. All the while that this was occurring, they made deals with their version of western Satan to keep in power.

Read into it what you will.

>> No.885089

>>885061
>they made deals with their version of western Satan to keep in power.
That was... their god?

Anyway, Satan is pretty cool. Maybe they wouldn't have done that shit if they just worshiped Satan instead.

Well, I guess they would have to sacrifice some goats, listen to heavy metal and fuck some bitches once in a while, but everything would be just fine.

>> No.885393

>>885061
You seriously don't think Matsuno was constantly cursing the FF name as he was forced to make a game with that branding using a system he had created specifically for HIS IP that he created with his own hands--Ogre Battle and Tactics Ogre?

>> No.885409

>>885393

I don't see why he would. For someone that would take the time to "curse FF's name" as you put it, he sure did spend a lot of time making games for Square.

>> No.885446

>>885393
And now no one remembers the Ogre games, but we have 9001 "FFT" threads to jerk off to every day.

>> No.885456

>>885446

>niche gaming series that never took off in america vs a spinoff of a popular franchise which DID take off in america

i wonder why

>> No.885562

>>885002
With the exception of the first Devil Survivor, SMT isn't really that anti christian.

>> No.885575

>>885562

Have you played SMT2

Also >implying that the group Amane was following (forgot the name) wasn't steered into a shitty direction by her father who had come under the influence of a demon

>> No.885584

>>884904
Asia in general seems like they have issues with their political leaders declaring themselves gods, what with State Shinto in Japan, the Kim family in North Korea, and several emperors in China. I suppose it makes since then that Xenogears used a lot of Gnostic themes.

>> No.885627

>>885575
Or SMT3, for that matter.

>> No.885648

>>885409
What other choice did he have? They bought the company he worked for. It was that or be out of a job and on his own.

>> No.885704

>>885648
I don't think it was as bad as you're trying to make it out, especially considering he was there for FFXII.

>> No.885712

>>885456
>The exact same game with the words 'FINAL FANTASU' on the cover sells a billion billion copies

>> No.885726

>>885712
Pretty much. It is why Square tried to market SaGa as "Final Fantasy Legends", except that one didnt work.

>> No.885730

>>885575
>SMT2
I always thought that SMT2 was the developers reaction to the completely different tone of the old testament (god smiting everyone) and the new testament (god loves everyone). The game that ends with Aleph (who is obviously Jesus) killing the tyrannical god of the old testament and saving humanity from his wrath at the cost of being tortured for all eternity. This is a pretty blatant allegory for the crucifixion, albeit a really weird one.

Also god is pretty merciless if you side with Nayoa in overclocked.

>> No.885739

>>885704
You will never know what it feels like to have your IP torn away from you and be forced to work on games with popular titles just because they will sell better than your niche IP which you built from the ground up with your own blood and sweat.

>> No.885742

>>885456
Why shouldn't Ogre Battle have taken off in America? Oh because it didn't have flashy FMV.

>> No.885746

>>885742
America: Burgers and Explosions. Only thing that'll sell games, every time.

>> No.885754

>>885742
>Enix only distributed twenty-five thousand copies of the Super NES version to North America, which made it one of the rarest critically acclaimed video game titles to date. As such, it can be difficult to purchase a copy of the game.

>> No.885757

>>883330
/thread

>> No.885759

>>885754
You do realize that if it sells, stores will order more and that number will continue to go up, right?

>> No.885764

>>884885
>Japanese people don't believe in the notion of their being only one single god ruling over everything.
Thank you for being the unsung voice of the japanese people.

>> No.885771

>>885746
It doesn't even really need both. I'd buy a game that had just a little of one of those things.

>> No.885776

>>885759
>thinking white piggus deserve our grolious hard work and art

>> No.885780

>>885771
Earthbound has burgers.

AND. An explosion.

>> No.885781

Only like 0.05% of the Japanese population is Christian, IIRC. This manifests itself in two ways - a somewhat wonky understanding of Christianity, and also a lack of the "grr, Christianity is so bad" edginess you see in Western art.

>> No.885802
File: 327 KB, 489x276, laughingbarthandelus.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
885802

>>885781
>a lack of the "grr, Christianity is so bad" edginess

Have you played a JRPG lately?

>> No.885806

>>884320
>The gaming makes you a better person shit at the end of that video
I thought that kind of faggotry only existed in /v/s imagination, jesus christ it sounds like a bad the best gamers skit.

>> No.885812

>>885802
JRPGs\Japanese art in general rarely goes beyond a religion which vaguely resembles the Roman Catholic Church.

>> No.885819

>>885812
Because that's the largest Christian sect and thus the most recognizable in the world.

>> No.885827

>>885819
Tell that to Protestants who will swear black and blue that Catholicism isn't actually Christianity, and is in fact a Roman imitation.

>Which, if you scratch the surface and examine the fact that the Pope is strangely similar to the Emperor of Rome, and he... lives in Rome... makes a certain amount of sense.

>> No.885834

>>885827
Very few Protestants would do that anymore.

>> No.885845

>>885834
You've never been to Ireland, have you?

>> No.885872

>>885845
Nope, but Ireland is hardly much in the way of the entire world Protestant population

>> No.885875

>implying videogames are an artistic medium wherein messages should be taken seriously, and not a vehicle for tactile entertainment
Silly cretins, videogames don't have subversion as part of their m.o. rather, their purpose is to be enjoyed. A good videogame is far too divergent in terms of moral options to actively brainwash someone and a linear or bad videogame is far too blunt to make that message have an impact on anyone other than children. Dumb passive children at that.

>> No.885878

The truth is: Japanese people see Catholicism the same way westerners see Islamism.

>> No.885879 [DELETED] 
File: 676 KB, 2560x1600, bioshock_anti-white_propaganda.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
885879

>>885781
>the "grr, Christianity is so bad" edginess you see in Western art
Well that's mainly due to western (and especially American) media being controlled by Jews.
Picrelated for example was directed by a Jew named Ken Levine.
If the Japanese media was dominated by Jews to a similar degree as the American media, all their games and TV shows would be virulently anti-Japanese, anti-Shinto and anti-Buddhist, and their newscasters would always insist that "Israel is Japan's greatest ally." They would also advocate for mass-immigration and homosexuality, as Joe Biden recently pointed out:
http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2013/05/joe-bidens-faux-pas/

>> No.885904

>>885878
Or Shintoism.
Or Buddhism.

WEIRD CRAZY WEEABOO FIGHTAN MAGIC

>> No.885905
File: 24 KB, 320x240, 1307578274417.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
885905

>>885879

>> No.885908

>>885742
>Oh because it didn't have flashy FMV.

Or maybe because it wasn't FF. Stop with this nonsense.

>> No.885913

>>885879

Uh huh. And my son is an orange talking goat named Mortimer.

>> No.885914
File: 221 KB, 274x313, $.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
885914

>>885879
>directed by a Jew
I mean c'mon, if they're willing to go that far to
>made millions of dollars
Nevermind.

>> No.885935 [DELETED] 

>>885879
Anon, everything Jews do is done to perpetuate a favorable image of the Jewish people in order to prevent another "holocaust." They would have little to gain by trying to manipulate the Japanese media like they do here. Besides, there's no way the Japanese would roll over to Jewish influence like the liberal American media does to both Jews and blacks.

>> No.885946
File: 3 KB, 256x224, T&C 2 - Thrilla's Surfari (U) [!]-17.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
885946

>>885935
/pol/ go home.

>> No.885948

>>885908
Um, you do realize the only reason FF got big was flashy FMV, right? I like FF but it's true.

>> No.885959

>>885948
And then they tried making one big flashy FMV called Spirits Within and it all went downhill from there.

>> No.885969
File: 111 KB, 470x337, 1369510165219.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
885969

>>885959

>mfw after seeing that movie during it's theater run

>> No.885985

>>885959
Wrong audience. Moviegoers don't like FMV. They like real actors. Only gamers would take FMV since they couldn't get any better.

>> No.885986

>>885946
/pol/ is paranoid that Jews are the reason the lady at Dunkin Donuts put too little cream cheese on their bagels (ironically enough)...

But it's pretty ignorant with all the info out there on the internet to not admit that Jews and Israel hold enormous sway over American government/education/media...

So much that our foreign policy exists almost exclusively as an attack dog for Israel

>> No.885989

>>885986
Oh, and self-sage for not retro.

>> No.886278

>>885948
>Um, you do realize the only reason FF got big was flashy FMV, right?

Right, because before then NO ONE played Final Fantasy games.

>> No.886296

>>886278
Why are you using hyperbole to try to refute something? The fact that it "got big" doesn't mean that no one played it before it got big

>> No.886307

>>886296

Pre FF7, FF was one of THE go-to series for RPG action, along with DQ. To sit here and pretend otherwise is asinine.

>> No.886334

>>886307
Yes, pre-FF7, when few people in the west played RPGs.

>> No.886890

>>885456
I highly doubt America ever had anything to do with it, it's not like Ogre did infinitely better at home.

>> No.886892

>>885730
The problem is, YHVH isn't actually killed, he's still around, and there is no "good" YHVH to replace him.

>> No.888239

>>885913
>Uh huh. And my son is an orange talking goat named Mortimer.
What are you even trying to say? Do you deny the fact that Bioshock was directed by a Jew named Kevin Levine? Or are you claiming that Joe Biden didn't really say that Jews use their vast influence in the American media to promote mass-immigration and homosexuality, as the Washington Post and many other newspapers have reported?
Or did you actually fuck a goat or something?

>>885914
You don't seem to understand what that picture is about, given its context in the game. It explicitly attacks Christianity and Anglo-Saxon Americans, while Jews are portrayed as poor innocent victims of Anglosaxon hate (when in reality they were dominating the slave trade, as has been written about extensively by both Jewish and Black historians)

sage for non-retro

>> No.888442

>>886892
I thought the reason YHVH didn't appear in Nocturne was because he was weakened after Aleph kicked the shit out of him, and while there isn't a good YHVH to replace him Alephs sacrifice prevents him and satan from going all sodom and gomorrah on the non chosen people. To me SMT2 has always felt more like a foreigners reaction/interpretation of christianity rather than something actually attacking christianity.

>>888239
Bioshock Infinite ends with a redemptive suicide which takes the form of a baptism.

>> No.888465

>>886334
>few people in the west played RPGs.
Not everybody was a consolefag before FF7

>> No.888803

>>888465
I'm including WRPGs. The RPG market was tiny, hell the PC games market as a whole was tiny, before 1997.

>> No.890143

>>885802
It's more about the psychotic and oppressive mega churches like the Roman Cathies in the Dark Ages, not so much Christendom as a whole. I mean, unless you believe all of Christianity is just a psychotic power mad organization bent on world domination, in which case, yeah, Japan's pretty anti-Christian.

>> No.890146

>>885834
You don't live in America, do you?

>> No.890147

>>886334
As a proportion, fewer people in the West play RPGs than did back then.

>> No.891454

>>890147
Proportions don't represent total size so I'm not surprised you chose that.

>> No.891830
File: 104 KB, 800x600, hellsing_catholic_vs_protestant.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
891830

One of the more... *iconic* portrayals of Christianity is Japanese media was, of course, Hellsing.

>> No.891848

>>891830
Hellsing was not popular in Japan.

>> No.891856

>>891848
It's still Japanese, though. Cowboy Bebop was a flop in Japan, but it still provides a useful example of how Japanese artists view jazz and cowboys.

>> No.892071

>>891856
>Cowboy Bebop was a flop in Japan
not it wasn't... at all...

>> No.892074

>>892071
I've heard it was a flop as well. Anyone got a real source on how well it did?

>> No.892086

>>892074
it was kind of a cult hit type of thing in japan, it wasn't popular in it's initial run but became popular through dvd releases and repeats a few years later.

>> No.892102

>>881785
Not /vr/ but I've never seen evil priests in Fire Emblem. At least not in 7.

>> No.892962

>>892102
There were some priests working for the enemy's forces, I think. One of them (the promoted version) was a leader in one of the "either/or" maps, and he was basically a high priest who professed to be an atheist, merely exploiting this "divine" magic for his own gain and power.

>> No.893035

>>882287
>>882918
>>883328
Shaft was a priest if I recall correctly. I don't remember if he was ever mentioned in Dracula X, but he was the one who controls Richter[/spoiler in SotN and was also featured in Dracula X Chronicles.

>> No.893043

>>893035
More than likely Shaft is a cultist though rather than someone from a more official, public religious organization though. A few other CVs had more generic cultists (men in long robes) resurrecting Dracula in short cutscenes as well.

>> No.893041
File: 1 KB, 90x75, Oro.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
893041

>>892962
I think that's Jerme. There are plenty of evil bishops in FE6 and other games. They all use the same fucking mugshot in FE6, too.

>> No.893050

>>893041
>jerme

Wait, I'm retarded. Jerme is the assassin, Kenneth is the Bishop.

>> No.893656

>>891830
Should've put Sir Integra instead of Seras

>> No.893659

>>893043
You say that like "cultist" and "Christian" are two different things

>> No.893658

>>892962
>a high priest who professed to be an atheist, merely exploiting this "divine" magic for his own gain and power.

That might've been an American only thing, I don't recall the evil bishop from 7 saying he was an atheist

>> No.893681

>>881705
>Was Final Fantasy Tactics supposed to be anti-Christianity?

that's simplistic.

The story's theme is of corruption, and Ramza seeing more of it. He starts off idealistic, and naive. He trusts that his brothers and the nobility can just reasonably sit down with the peasants revolting and talk things through. Then he sees the corruption in the nobility. Then he sees the corruption in the Church. Then he sees the corruption in the religion and mythology of Ivalice itself. Even "Jesus" is a fucking jerk.

>> No.894116

>>893659
They are. Cults are small, typically secretive, insular and not culturally accepted.

>> No.894126

>>894116
You mean like Christianity during the Roman era?

>> No.894201

>>894126
Yes

>> No.894671
File: 48 KB, 359x346, jew sig.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
894671

>>884865
Christianity is also poison to white people. It is targeted poison, made specifically to cull the Indo-Aryan spirit

>> No.894690

>>894671
Yeah that would explain all the anti-semitism Yeshua espoused.

>> No.894692

It's not anti-Christian, it's anti-Catholic.

>> No.894702

>>882287
>Castlevania
>JRPG
I guess Zelda II's a JRPG now, huh...

>> No.894754

>>885746

It should have been localized as Ogre Battle: The Meal of the Burger King

>> No.896034

>>892102
The Lopt church is the major antagonist of the Judgral Saga (4 and 5), which happen to be the FE games with the best story. And there's just generally lots of enemy priests and bishops, though not necessarily "evil".

>> No.896039

>>894671
Christianity is poison to human nature itself, as are all organized religions.

>> No.896047

>>896039
That's because human nature is evil. We are greedy selfish demonic masses.

>> No.896061

>>896047
Not at all - our nature is inquisitive, forever seeking out new knowledge and understanding of the world around us. Religion serves only to hamper this, to use lies and falsehoods to prematurely end the search for truth, and when turned into an organized faith like Christianity, uses this same ignorance and blindness as a rallying cry, actively condemning those who continue to seek truth and in that way keep a twisted and foul grip on men's souls, making them their slaves.

>> No.896070

>>896061
>our nature is inquisitive, forever seeking out new knowledge and understanding of the world around us.
This is only the prerogative of the intellectual elite minority. The general mass of humanity is not like this.

>> No.896098

>>884305
Breath of Fire 2 wasn't anti-Christianity. Unless, of course, you assume all Christianity is either American Fundamentalism or Medieval European Catholicism.
It was showing that the best way to corrupt people is via religion. Christians actually fear things like this happening (the sane, non-fundamentalist, non Old Catholic ones, at least); where evil people take over the church and pervert it for other means.

That's why Protestantism exists: Martian Luther pointed out that the old Catholic Church was pulling some major un-Christlike shit. Unfortunately, because people get huge erections for power, a lot of further segmentation happened after that, too; hince Fundies.

A church that conquers a land via religious fear and force is a warped version of what the Christian church is suppose to be. That's what the Church of St. Eva was. A warped religion that lied about its purpose. A warped Christian church is the same: it's not really about bringing people to salvation; its about achieving the hidden agendas of its so called "leaders"

>> No.896131

>>896061
That's a near religious interpretation of humanity. Humans are animals. We fuck, we feed, we fight, and then we die. Our niche in the animal kindgom isn't scholar; we're the animal that forces nature in unnatural ways to keep us from being eaten by things or killed by the elements. To think otherwise is to assume that we have some sort of special purpose. We have insanity high learning capacities compaired to other animals, yes, but it isn't for some grandiose purpose. Human intelligence still does what its been doing since we first split off from the other apes: figure out a way to live long enough to outdo the other guy so you can eat in peace, fuck who you want to, and die a nonviolent death.

Just because your belief doesn't include a sky father doesn't mean that it isn't still a belief.

>> No.896131,3 [INTERNAL] 

[IMG]http://i68.tinypic.com/2d1trmh.jpg[/IMG]