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/vr/ - Retro Games

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8810810 No.8810810 [Reply] [Original]

Why does it get so much shit when it's better than any 3D Zelda?

>> No.8810814

>>8810810
This makes no sense.

>> No.8810824

Not really the same kind of game as Zelda, but it's stupid that people like Banjo but hate this.
MInd you all the DK64 hate is completely fabricated during non-retro times. Check reviews and reactions for this game back in 1999, it was super positive.
The internet makes people into huge faggots.

>> No.8810828

>>8810824
>it's stupid that people like Banjo but hate this.
Not it isn't.

>> No.8810835

>>8810828
Yes, it definitely is
>but muh have to change kongs on the barrel
not an argument.

>> No.8810895

>>8810824
You do know that reactions can change over time? This was the era where bigger automatically meant better regardless. People can look back on things they initially showered with praise and realise it’s not as good as they expected. It happens with games (DK64, Skyward Sword, Assassin’s Creed), it happens with movies, it happens with albums. I won’t lie and say that the internet has permeated the dislike of a lot of acclaimed titles (Ocarina of Time, Doom, Tomb Raider) but it’s incredibly Naïve to think that just because something was absolutely worshiped by critics (whose opinion ultimately means absolutely fucking nothing) means that it was ultimately good. There’s plenty of horrible games that have gotten showered with praise and critical love despite being underwhelming at best, or total balls at worst. Just look at all those artsy fartsy walking simulators that hipster critics call “SERIOUS PIECES OF ART GUYZZZ” when they’re hardly games to begin with

>> No.8810910

>>8810895
Not him. But I'm going to take a hard no on what you're saying here.

>> No.8811030

>>8810824
>it's stupid that people like Banjo but hate this.
Banjo is much more sweet and to the point. You're purposely being obtuse if you cannot see how big the difference is. You can make this same statement about any genre. It's a nonsense statement.

>Check reviews and reactions for this game back in 1999, it was super positive.
Because it was a highly-anticipated game and people had a much more limited view on what 3D action games should be, when they were still new. Really think about it logically: If lots of people are increasingly viewing their distaste (including people who worked on the game) don't you think they have a point, and it's not just something invented as a legend?

DK64 is a bad game. It's bad sequel to DKC and it's a bad follow-up to Mario 64. It's a boring chore simulator that (for the time) had great production values.

>> No.8811040

>>8810810
>better than any 3D Zelda
the mods are gonna warn you the first time
then hardban if you continue
stop being a faggot

>> No.8811061

>>8811030
>K64 is a bad game. It's bad sequel to DKC and it's a bad follow-up to Mario 64. It's a boring chore simulator that (for the time) had great production values.

I can't disagree with you on anyting there. I had a lof of fun with the multiplayer with my friends though.

>> No.8811086

>>8810810
Because it's not?
Sorry one of your fave childhood games sucked though. Must be rough.

>> No.8811092

>>8810910
Not him but he's right and you're stupid

>> No.8811102

>>8810895
I have not seen any widespread hate for classic Doom or Tomb Raider at all, and Ocarina of Time hate never sticks.

>> No.8811108

>>8810810
I don’t think it is better than the Zelda64 games butits a bit of an odd comparison as they’re very different.

DK64 is a collectathon platformer with shades of Lost Vikings style puzzle solving. Zelda is a typical action rpg. Stages in DH64 are open and you can get bananas/coins/blueprints/faries/etc in most any order. When you have enough its next level. In Zelda, there are linear dungeons or other areas with definite opening rooms and definite and specific final bosses/goals that must be overcome to continue. Do A, then B, then C.

To answer your question on why DK64 gets so much shit, I would say its the “collectathon” aspect that turns many people off. There’s little structure, just explore/collect stuff. This is fun to me, but to many it seems tedious, especially paired with the tag barrel/multiple character concept/ backtracking. I do think a more linear, 3d platforming DKC game on the n64 would have been unique (compared to mario 64 and Banjo, and many others) but its not what we got.

I like Banjo 1 the best of the Rare collectathons (Mario 64 is best overall) because of its condensed areas, gameplay variety, separation of levels and overall simplicity. Unlike dk64, BK2 or Conker or many others, the notes, jinjos etc need to be recollected every time you start a stage. (Mario 64 is like this also with coins). These stages aren’t ridiculously spread out and can be done in 45 mins or so. If your good you only play each stage once or twice, rather than backtracking like a metroidvania. Sonic Adventure was the real dissapointment as it tried the linear style and didn’t quite pull it off in my opinion. I always really like the bowser levels of mario 64 and the levels in sunshine without fludd and wanted some games like that. Crash was fun but not truly 3d. Croc was good but still has a lot of collectathon in its dna. Ninpen Manmaru on Saturn is actually a 3d linear plat that I like better than most people but it had its problems too.

>> No.8811121

>>8810810
Good for you, giving that dumpster fire of a game some love. That's sweet.

>> No.8811126

>>8810824
>Mind you all the DK64 hate is completely fabricated during non-retro times.
lol no, I was on gamefaqs in n64 era.
dk64 literally killed collectathons by having 5 characters with 3,500 color-coded bananas and repeat minigames.
the game isn't bad, but holy shit its too much in a wrong direction.

>> No.8811137

>>8811108
I appreciate the effort, but this such a retarded post. I mean, dude, do you even game?

>> No.8811149

>>8811108
Your post is very thought out and good, anon.
>>8811137
You're an idiot

>> No.8811164

>>8811149
Don't call me an idiot just because his post is more lengthy..

>> No.8811176

>>8811164
I'm calling you an idiot because you had nothing to add and just went
>Y-y-y-y-you're not a REAL gamer!!!

>> No.8811196

>>8811108
if mario 64 is a collectathon then basically anything is. it has the absolute bare minimum necessary to track progress for a game with areas gated behind the completion of isolated challenges. if instead of stars the pause menu had a checklist that showed some particular areas you summited, boss-like enemies you defeated, or hidden areas you visited it'd be effectively the same thing but no one would call it a "collectathon." quite honestly i'd be more on board with calling a gta game a collectathon but i've never heard that

>> No.8811203

>>8811176
I did nothing of the sort. You're putting words in my mouth. It would be easy for me to say I don't care, but I do. At what point did I say this?
>Y-y-y-y-you're not a REAL gamer!!!

>> No.8811204

Putting Kongs on a quick select would have definitely worked as a band aid solution to its tedious backtracking. Bigger issue is that it's a Banjo game with a Donkey Kong skin, only Jungle Japes actually feels like a Donkey Kong level.

>> No.8811209

>>8811203
>I did nothing of the sort
Bro you literally said
>I mean, dude, do you even game?

>> No.8811219

>>8811209
I'm shitting on his gaming. Not on his supposedly stuttering. Do you understand how you are wrong?

>> No.8811227

>>8811219
On my supposedly stuttering. That's even worse. Don't mock me faggot. I will kill you right now.

>> No.8811229

>>8811219
>I'm shitting on his gaming. Not on his supposedly stuttering.
What the fuck are you even talking about? You're a fucking moron. Clearly you don't get how you added nothing besides going
>NO YOU'RE WRONG AND A SHIT GAMER!!!!
And that's literally it.
Fuck off you faggot

>> No.8811272

>>8811229
I'm not backing down. You're a faggot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42zR5eVYfUA

>> No.8811284

>>8810835

There is actually some platforming in Banjo-Kazooie

DK64 is a walking simulator

>> No.8811286

>>8811108
Good post, I share most of your considerations.

>> No.8811480

>>8811196
Yeah there’s no concrete definition of collectathon I’m very liberal with the term. I guess I associate it with a particular camera style and open world sandbox platformer style of the n64 era as much as I do with rampant item collection but you could easily call Sonic 3d blast a collectathon or even the original Pac-man. Marble Madness I suppose would be a linear isometric game as a counterpoint to Sonic 3d.

When I call an n64 sandbox style 3d platformer a collectathon I’m not trying to be derogatory, I like these games. I guess its more of a spectrum than a black or white thing. I would say DK64 is definitely on the far end of the spectrum towards the collectathon side along with Banjo Tooie. With Super Mario 64, Croc and Banjo Kazooie 1 more in the center. Croc may lean towards more linearity. I hate to mention Ninpen Manmaru again but its a great example of the linear 3d platforming end of the spectrum at the time being released in 1997. It would be the antithesis of DK64, a completely linear obstacle course of a 3d platformer.

Mario 64 has game progress tracked with stars gotten in a variety of ways. Every stage has you collect 100 coins and 8 red coins. Some have you collect “secrets” too. Then its usually a matter of linear platforming somewhere, up a mountain, up a snowman, up a volcano, through a pyramid, etc to get another star or fight an enemy for a star. Then there’s often a secret star to collect through exploration. To me this seems the same as Banjo Kazooie replacing coins with notes, red coins with jinjos and so on. Banjo Kazooie is often called a collectathon. But both mix linear platforming in with the “collectathon” approach and combine the two very well I think. And I could see why someone wouldn’t think of Mario64 as a collectathon even though it has some of those elements. As I said I really liked the Bowser levels and inside the volcano/pyramid and even the invisible cap level and wanted a whole game like that.

>> No.8811613

>>8811480
for a game to be a collectathon it has to involve several discrete item types that occur in static repetition which are variously soft or hard requirements for progression. mario 64 has stars and two types of coins which do double duty as health. if you want to stretch it you could compare numbered secrets to like, jinjos but there are very few of those stars and the design philosophy is quite a bit different. if you want 100% completion it's three types of concrete collectibles at most. even if someone were to argue in bad faith you couldn't stretch it past like, five.

dk64 has golden bananas, regular bananas, banana medals that form their own subset from the colored bananas, and then if you want 100% completion there's basically subdivisions for golden bananas that include blueprints and fairies. on top of that, you need to collect coins just to collect moves and equipment which mario 64 has entirely unlocked from the beginning, as well as untold amounts of other minor collectibles that you need just to keep using some of those moves and equipment. i'm being charitable to both games and not counting boss keys since they could easily be replaced by automatic cutscenes just showing you that a door is unlocked.

it's sometimes difficult to put into words i guess but i think it's super obvious which games do this kind of shit just to do it and which ones are just using collectibles as "mile markers"

>> No.8811663

>>8810824
>it's stupid that people like Banjo but hate this.
Banjo Kazooie:
100 Notes per level
10 Jiggies per level
5 Jinjos per level
2 Empty Honeycombs per level
Varying Mumbo Skulls but unless you actively avoid collecting them, you should have enough per level
Donkey Kong 64:
500 Bananas per level, (Though 75 per Kong for the Banana medal)
20 Gold Bananas per level
5 Blueprints per level
1 Battle Crown per level
20 Banana Fairies scattered around the game
Varying Kong Coins in place of Mumbo Skulls.

With Banjo you need to scour a small level twice at most, or you could make notes and come back to relevant places as a transformation.
With DK64 it's that but with 5 fucking Kongs, each having their own Switches at varying points of the level and DK 64's stages on average are 3 to 4 times the size of a Banjo Kazooie level.

It's completely reasonable to enjoy Banjo Kazooie but dislike DK64. It's a fuckton less monotonous to not only complete, but 100%
I'm not even going to get started on DK64's fucking terrible minigames like Beaver Bother which seems to be barely tested.

>> No.8811718

>>8810824
I thought I wanted an ultra collectathon. This game showed me I do not want that.

>> No.8811749

>>8811613
So by that definition Mario 64 isn’t a collectathon. Seems pretty reasonable. I hadn’t really thought about the use of collected items as limits or locks on progression as a mechanic. Would you call Banjo Kazooie 1 a collectathon because it has note doors to progress through the castle? They both use stars/jiggies to unlock levels but mario 64 doesn’t have coin doors analogous to bk’s note doors, so I guess BK is more of a collectathon, with more hard limits.

Its interesting to me to look at these game designs as being at various places on a scale. Like linear platformers to non-linear. An interesting list would be every 90s 3d platformer from most linear “obstacle course” to most open “collectathon” (DK64). Of course theres more to it, for example the tony hawk games are score attack and fit neither category, but its still interesting to think about.

>> No.8812065

>>8811749
Banjo Kazooie was OK when it came to collecting things. Never played the sequel, but it met some harsh criticism in that regard. And then along came Donkey Kong. Rare had mastered the N64 by that time. But the whole thing was just about collecting a bunch of stuff. I have friends who loved it though. I suspect their hoarders irl.

>> No.8812067

>>8812065
*the'yre

>> No.8812081

>>8811663
If you're just playing it one kong at a time (the way you should be playing) it's just:
100 small bananas (only 75 really need to be picked up)
4 gold bananas
1 blue print
a fairy that you might not even see as that character

And that's it. If you play as one kong, it's like 5 smaller banjo kazooie levels within a single world. Then you just take a smoke break or do something else before switching kongs or just switch kongs on a different day. I treat it as a back burner game, it's a comfy game to go back to after a session of another game I'm playing. I can have it on the back burner for about a week or two and get a lot of out of in each small session that I play in.

>> No.8812090

>>8812081
You can't even access the entire level as one Kong, so you can't really approach it like Banjo even if you're trying to focus on one character at a time

>> No.8812102

>>8811613
For me, what makes a collectathon is that the things you collect unlock other things that are needed for progress, instead of linear progression in the game. So the stars unlock the bowser doors which give you the keys which unlock the other parts of the castle. The keys are actually the main collectable, the stars are just the currency for the keys, in the way the jigsaw pieces are the currencies for the jigsaw puzzles in BK64, which are like the bowser doors, and the notes are like the keys. All of this is in contrast to a linear platformer where the objective is simply start here and "reach the flag", then go level from level to the end.

Mario 64 is a collectathon, it just has fewer collectibles, but it has the exact same progression mechanics that Banjo has; it even has more freedom, so you could probably argue its the better collectathon from a design point of view. Banjo isn't a collectathon just because of the scope of the collectibles, you could have a collectathon with just one collectible, as long as that one collectible is used to unlock progress in the game, as opposed to merely beating the level itself unlocking the next level.

>> No.8812103

>>8810824
They're both horrible versions of Spyro for Nintendo-onlies who didn't know any better.

>> No.8812108

>>8812090
You can do most levels as one kong, actually, if you start with the right one. I do this quite a lot and haven't played the game switching kongs in years. There's only like two levels where you need to switch kongs and I just do those switch puzzles first, and it takes like two minutes and then I don't have to do it again.

>> No.8812257

>>8810824
Loved BK and BT as a kid.
Also loved DKC series.
Never got too far in this tho.

>> No.8812354

>>8812103
cringe sonytard

>> No.8813047

>>8811108
>>8811121
>>8811204
There is a Tag Anywhere mod that is almost finished. Change on the fly, turns it from a 5/10 to at least a 7/10, cant fix the rest.

>> No.8813059

It's a very good game, that basically has one glaring flaw, which might ruin the game for you, if you don't have the patience to work around it.
In terms of variety, and fun gameplay moments (like bossfights), it's probably Rare's best on the console.
It was one of those games that was great to have as a kid, because you got so much out of it. You have a huge adventure, and then you have multiplayer battle modes, and then you have DK Arcade and Jetpac, and then you have things like the Engarde challenge that you can compete with friends over.

>> No.8813147

>>8813047
Look, I appreciate that people had the effort to do this.

But, let's be honest: the game still wouldn't be especially amazing, even if the whole thing was streamlined to just one character. It would still be a game about slowly walking around huge levels and occasionally shooting.

>> No.8813710

>>8810824
I didn't know that people hated it
As a kid, I liked the game. Plenty of places to explore, things to unlock.Aways thought it was cool that you could play as different characters and that each one had different weapons/abilities
Never finished it but I got close

>> No.8813732

>>8811108
not reading

>> No.8813738

>>8811480
>>8811613
>>8811663

>>8813732

>> No.8813742

>>8810810
It's the quintessential kids' game, if you think about it. Big open levels to explore, tons of shit to collect, several different characters to traverse the world with... it's definitely the kind of game a curious child with an intact sense of wonder and adventure would absolutely love. I showed it to my nephews when they were little (they knew it as "the monkey game"), and they loved just getting lost in the world even if they didn't know what to do.

For adults, though? Yeah, it's tedious.

>> No.8813767

>>8813742
>Big open levels to explore, tons of shit to collect, several different characters to traverse the world with... it's definitely the kind of game a curious child with an intact sense of wonder and adventure would absolutely love.
Exactly. I have fond memories of this game as a kid but even when I picked it back up a couple years ago I still didn't hate it but that sense "if anything can happen. I can go anywhere" etc wasnt as prevalent. It's a fun game with lots of places to go and lots of characters to play as so it's perfect for kids. People who hate it probably didn't play it as a kid so they don't have the fond memories and they just find a really big collectathon

>> No.8815207

>>8810824
Same with Castlevania 64, LoI, Curse of Darkness, and LoS