/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.8686151]

Indisputably the best CRPG ever made and a credible candidate for best computer game ever made, period. The only flaw it has is not enough foreshadowing of Suldanessellar, otherwise it is PERFECT:

- ambient sound and music so good you can pinpoint your location with your eyes closed
- looks like an oil painting
- timeless gameplay that has adapted well to the touchscreen age
- deep enough gameplay people have written entire dissertations about the magic system, party construction, solo play, finessing level ups etc
- a fantastic villain
- combines the depth of WRPGs with the bold characterisation of JRPGs to achieve a perfect mix of stats, story and personality

[Anonymous No.8686192]

Meh, I believe Baldur's Gate 2 was responsible for the decline of the genre with its theme park design and story faggotry. BG1 was truer to the core ideals of the genre.

[Anonymous No.8686350]

>>8686151
>>8686192
All the IE Biobitch game's doomed Crpgs into le funny quirky leddit character story time bullshit that plagues Crpgs today. Bioware killed wrpgs

[Anonymous No.8686395]

>>8686151
And your reasons for posting the worst game of the genre are?

[Anonymous No.8686476]

>>8686395
Post a better one so everyone can laugh at your piss poor taste

[Anonymous No.8686557]

>>8686476
So if he posted something like the first system shock, you'd die of embarrassment because you weren't alive when it came out
man, are zooms zooms cringe

[Anonymous No.8686567]

>>8686151
My main issue with this game is that eventually the amount of micro managing needed for each encounter reaches a breaking point for me. As you reach higher levels your low level spells are not replaced, just stacked on with higher level ones. After each rest I have to cast 10+ buffs and manage all of the status effects and debuffs during combat. Usually after saving Imoen is where I hit that point and I just can't get myself to play anymore because it feels like work.

[Anonymous No.8686574]

Playing this right now. I've been playing it since it released so for 20 years. Iv never finished the game. Im determined to finish it this time.

Furthest I got was the drow city or deep underground. How much further is it from there till the end?

I also didn't touch half the quests

[Anonymous No.8686585]

There's really nothing like this game. The amount of variety and replayability is insane. Combined with perfect UI and controls, great story and music, continuation from BG1, etc. Still hasn't been topped.
This was the next gen upgrade to SSI's great D&D games, and unfortunately, WotC let the legacy of D&D video games die after this.

[Anonymous No.8686589]

>>8686151
It's probably my favorite game as well, but it has a number of issues:
- far more liner than the first game, leading to a "theme park" feeling (>>8686192). I'm really supposed to believe that the little tiny village of Umar Hills has a cluster of ogres not 200 feet from the inn, when they have a bunch of rowdy teenagers that want to be adventurers? And that this happened despite there being not one, but two rangers living at about the same distance? And that one was murdered by wolves without anyone hearing the fight? Or that the other ranger has a cave with monsters in it literally underneath the walkway to his door that he allows to remain there? The areas are just too dense to be plausible, whereas the areas in BG1 are hours of travel apart and are usually sparse outside of one or two notable zones or encounters. That's how it should be.
- falls into the same morality issue that most RPGs do. It lets you play evil, and the evil characters are the strongest ones, but the game heavily penalizes you for playing evil, and the options to do so are written fairly poorly. It's more like a tacked-on challenge mode than a viable route for first-time players.
- Mage battles become tedious onion-peeling affairs, bringing them from invincible to killable-in-a-single-hit via your own spells. Forces you to rest after every fight in case you run into a new mage, and you have to pre-buff a lot (pushed to metagame), as there's so many buffs you need for major fights that it's impractical (or repetitive) to apply them during each attempt (>>8686567).
- No one likes fighting Beholders or Mind Flayers, they effectively exist in parallel to the typical combat mechanics.
- Kits/spells are poorly balanced, which is partially due to being based off P&P D&D, and not everything "needs" to be balanced, but it does make playthroughs repetitive because some spells are just the best at each level.
>>8686574
Skipping side content, that's about 2/3 of the way.

[Anonymous No.8686623]

>>8686557
No. System Shock is an interesting, ambitious and clunky product of its time that hasn't aged well and is a pain in the ass to play in the modern day unless you mod it. Whereas BG2 is still slick and playable out of the box (or vanilla GOG download) so to speak.

[Anonymous No.8686630]

>>8686574
I should also say that, since you seem to burn out on it, there might be other games you would like more that use the same engine. Also, by play hours, BG2 is by far the longest of them all.
The Icewind Dale series is more focused on dungeon-delving, loot, and combat, with very little in the way of open-world exploration or town / dialogue sequences.
Planescape: Torment is more focused on narrative, an interesting setting, characters, and player agency. The combat and itemization is cut way back, though.

>>8686589
As an aside, I think the Baldur's Gate series gameplay peaks around levels 5 - 15, with up to 19 being acceptable for end-game material. BG1 is balanced well that way, but BG2 should have slowed level progression and let you savor each level a bit more; you get too powerful too quickly. In BG1, each level is a significant jump in power, but in BG2, each level is usually quite incremental. Leveling varies by class, but base BG2 should have capped around 15 instead of 18, and the expansion from 16 - 21 instead of 19 to 31 (!). At low levels, the characters don't really have any options in gameplay, and at high levels, every fight tends to play out the same way, even though on paper your character has tons of abilities and options.
- while BG2 has far deeper and better characters than BG1, there aren't as many. Your options are quite restricted per playthrough, and the player is further incentivized to reload if they permanently lose one, even though (befitting the higher-level context) permanent death methods are more abundant. In BG1 you can stay immersed by permanently losing someone because you have an almost unending list of replacements. (Sadly, BG1 makes it very difficult to actually lose someone permanently.)
- the strongholds are a major selling point, but they vary wildly in utility and quality.
- similarly, the romance system is unique to BG2, but is heavily restricted by partner options and character race.

[Anonymous No.8686634]

>>8686589
Why would the game reward you generally for being a psycho? Bullying aliens for dark side points is absolutely retarded from a narrative standpoint.
It does reward you for "evil" actions like robbing people's homes and the like.
It should be noted that the best armor in the game IS a reward for a Chaotic Evil action though.

[Anonymous No.8686635]

>>8686567
What kind of party are you playing? I've never needed to micromanage my party that much. Big tank with all the best defensive stuff charges in and the other guys shoot from a distance with magic bows and slings. Summon skeletons if it's a particularly nasty wizard. Is your MC one of the more fragile classes?

[Anonymous No.8686637]

>>8686151
I spent like 100 hours in chapter 2. It was so open that it actually burned out and dropped it. in chapter 2 still

[Anonymous No.8686645]

>>8686630
>I think the Baldur's Gate series gameplay peaks around levels 5 - 15, with up to 19 being acceptable for end-game material.

Agree up to a point (I'm the OP) but
moving out of the "sweet spot" as you level up is something all RPG game designers have to contend with and I think the Infinity Engine's interpretation of AD&D works better than most. At least Epic level characters still "feel" distinctive - thief is still very much a thief, mage very much mage and fighter still very much a fighter - unlike, let's say, Morrowind in which all builds blur into an indestructible flying warrior wizard.

[Anonymous No.8686691]

>>8686637
This is definitely a slight issue as well, even though the obvious solution is just "dude move on already". They should have had only half the amount of content in each of the zones, and then changed / added new content once you return in the second half.
>>8686645
I just think they should have lowered the cap and progression rate. The game works at higher levels, but is anyone really happy to level from 26 to 27? It changes nothing.
>"feel" distinctive
Yes, but that's the class system, not really the leveling per se. Infinity Engine games are designed around parties of different classes. You don't have a party in Morrowind, so you might as well let the player do everything. Of course, it's up to the player - not all builds blur unless you want them to; Morrowind doesn't force you to leverage enchanting or alchemy, it's the player choosing to level all skills. You can be a stealth Khajiit and only use thief weapons and lockpicks if you choose, it won't even be significantly harder.
A closer comparison is Dark Souls, where you can in theory can be anything, but in practice are limited by the available experience in a (typical) playthrough. It has the flexibility that Morrowind is going for, without the capacity to blur all builds by the end. It's a trade-off without an objective winner, I feel. For me, Morrowind takes so long to beat that I have no desire to re-play it, and I don't have to, since you can "do everything" (more or less) on one playthrough. I can run a streamlined route if I want to try a different House, though. But in Dark Souls or BG2, if you want to play a different build, you have to start all over from the beginning. Imagine World of Warcraft if you couldn't respec talent points!
In short, I think the class system for each game fits its broader design well. I think the issue is that in BG2/Morrowind you become too powerful and less invested in the gameplay. Why use level 1-7 spells when 8-9 can kill everything on screen, and then rest?

[Anonymous No.8686707]

>>8686691
Dark Souls is very limited in what you can actually do with your build, though. Being a third person action game. Agree that it still gives your character more of a theme feeling than Morrowind despite having way less options.

[Anonymous No.8686805]

>>8686691
>Why use level 1-7 spells when 8-9 can kill everything on screen, and then rest?

1. There are timed events in BG2 that might mean you can't (or I should say, don't want to) rest. Admittedly, by the time you're getting level 7 and 9 spells the timed game events have probably played out, but still.

2. Magic Missile and Chromatic Orb are Level 1 spells and stay useful right through to the endgame, and there's nothing stopping you filling all your Level 1 slots with either.

3. You might not be a pure mage; your build might only have access to a few low level spells, which may still have utility even at really high levels for your thief or whatever.

I agree with your overall point, yeah if you have a mage with Time Stop you're probably going to end up spamming it in every fight, but the other points still stand. No magic system is perfect, BG2 does have some quirky low level spells that don't scale and which you'll rapidly stop using, and yeah, if you have a mage with Time Stop, etc, you'll probably end up spamming it as much as you can, but the game offers a good diversity of opponents against which you can use a range of different tactics.

[Anonymous No.8686809]

>>8686350
inform me of a game that doesn't have reddit characters

[Anonymous No.8686813]

>>8686476
I can post multiple ;)

>Ultima IV: Quest of Avatar (1985, Apple II version)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYGFh3I3IG4
>Ultima V: Warriors of Destiny (1988, Apple II or MS-DOS patch version)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bO6Jappcl30
>Ultima Underworld (1992)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpuTbxkaZ94
>Fallout 1 (1997)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8U9T8Z_Ayhw
>Planescape: Torment (1999)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyQEZUqsanI
>Darklands (1992)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wB8n9aR7n4s

>>8686557
System Shock is trash.

[Anonymous No.8686828]

>>8686151
Agreed

[Anonymous No.8686950]

>>8686813
I can't be bothered to refute all of those but c'mon, gaming on an Apple II is NOT timeless. You can respect those games for what the did back in the 80s but they are horrible to actually have to play.

[Anonymous No.8687040]

>>8686813
>Darklands (1992)
Based. Shame that Microprose never made the whole series of historically-inspired RPGs that they had envisioned when they made Darklands.

[Anonymous No.8687071]

>>8686950
>You can respect those games for what the did back in the 80s but they are horrible to actually have to play.

Let me guess, you weren't even a sperm when these games came out, PFFF.

[Anonymous No.8687161]

>>8686151
BG1 is better.
https://lilura1.blogspot.com/2020/12/Baldurs-Gate-1-vs-Baldurs-Gate-2-BG1-vs-BG2.html

[Anonymous No.8687173]

>>8686151
Icewind Dale would like to have a word with you

>>8686192
>theme park design and story faggotry
1 and 2 feel the same in that regard

[Anonymous No.8687318]

>>8687161
Based Lilura1 poster. I don't always agree what they say, but they always make good points.
I disagree with the framework of some of their argument, though; it's incorrect to judge BG2 from the goals of BG1, which is what Lilura1 often does. This is the same mistake made by people saying that Resident Evil 4 is bad because it isn't a good "Resident Evil game". Resident Evil 4 isn't RE2 - it's RE4. It stands alone. Similarly, look at Silent Hill 1 and 2: on the surface, horror games, but different in almost all details. Silent Hill 1 is oppressive, dangerous, horrifying, and elusive - it aims to keep the player terrified and confused. Silent Hill 2 is depressive, strange, unsettling, and mysterious. Silent Hill 2 has softer music, non-threatening enemies, and a plot whose twist is suggested many times prior to it being spelled out. Silent Hill 1 doesn't hand-hold the player, and many people finish the game not even understanding the plot. Both games succeed - SH1 is about a demonic invasion of sorts, and SH2 is about confronting guilt. SH2 isn't scary because it isn't aiming to be; it does, however, have the atmosphere appropriate to its own goals. One can be upset that SH2 didn't ramp up the horror, based on series expectations, but it has to be judged as its own work.
BG1 is a game about low-level adventuring and then rising to meet a personal and local threat. It makes sense to explore the wilderness and to be non-linear. BG2 is a game about experienced heroes fighting to regain their friend and soul while facing destiny and literally epic affairs. Why would there be any expectation for a party of level 12 adventurers to wander around the peasant countryside looking for lost cats, small-time bandits, or tombs with kobolds? There isn't - they focus on areas with hidden rakshasas, troll armies, or plotting mind flayers.
In the end, it's a wash - there are MANY things each does better than the other. I do agree that BG1 is a bigger achievement, however.

[Anonymous No.8687747]

>>8686476
For me
>Ultima V
>Ultima VII
>Realms of Arkania II: Star Trail
>Betrayal at Krondor
>Darklands
>Fallout 2
>Wizardry VII
>Wizardry VIII
>Might & Magic VII
>Arcanum
>Baldur's Gate 1
>Divine Divinity
>Prince of Qin
>Ambermoon
>Neverwinter Nights 1 & 2 (expansions and user content)
>Jagged Alliance 2
>Quest for Glory IV
Those are just retro games too. I do prefer Baldur's Gate 2 over both Icewind Dale games and the modern Pathfinder games however. Maybe Fallout 1, Planescape: Torment, and Temple of Elemental Evil (modded) as well.

[Anonymous No.8687783]

>>8687173
I completely disagree. Baldur's Gate 1 is a lot more immersive, because every map lines up neatly with adjacent maps to form a cohesive world. You have to discover each location through manual exploration, unlike BG2 where accepting a quest unlocks a location on the map that you instantly fast travel to. BG1 also understood that you don't need to shove content in the player's face every several minutes, which is why so many people complain about empty wilderness maps (no map is actually empty though). In Athkatla, you can't go a minute without running into a new quest giver or scripted event. BG2 seems to be the first open world to follow the 45 second rule, which is a focus tested rule that CDPR, Ubisoft, and many other developers follow that dictates that the player shouldn't go longer than 45 seconds without being rewarded with stimuli.

[Anonymous No.8688721]

>>8686813
You seem like a poser. Nobody glorifies PS:T for its gameplay, in fact the thing being on a pedestal is mostly a meme.
>Fallout 1 (1997)
It's universally agreed upon the first one was just a tech demo, and 2 does just about everything better.

No issues with the other titles, esp. darklands, but comparing games that came out a decade later just isn't fair. The gen difference in darklands is especially glaring because of the lack of fluid movement and so on. This is where zoomzooms get out of their depth because the technology was still simplistic.

[Anonymous No.8689698]

>>8687783
You wouldn't have wanted the team to just make the same game over again for BG2 though, would you? The two form an epic whole. BG2 is a lot "busier" but just slowly clearing maps at higher levels wouldn't have worked as well second time around.

[Anonymous No.8690213]

>>8688721
>It's universally agreed upon the first one was just a tech demo, and 2 does just about everything better.
>But comparing games that came out a decade later just isn't fair.

My god you are so fucking retarded that it makes me hurt my eyes just reading your post.

Fallout 2 is simply "Fallout 1 again BuT wiTH a loT More 'COntent' ", and the game does that while losing the point of the original game, being the original a game that you can literally finish in less than an hour or two if you just go with the king of the Mutants and you talk to him, where the game encourages you to try several different scenarios, precisely because of how big and small it is at the same time.

Fallout 2 well you start with you fighting with bugs for several hours to get out of an underground place, totally something that you are going to replay from beginning to end multiple times.

You can compare videogames from any year and the comparison will always be fair hun, because they are videogames. I always think about how pathetic modern games are when I compare them to retro games for example.

[Anonymous No.8690709]

>>8690213
>Fallout 2 well you start with you fighting with bugs for several hours
lmao, Temple of Trials is 15 minutes at best. You can't be that shit...

[Anonymous No.8690750]

>>8690213
Holy reddit, get outta here. Dumbest shit I've read all year

[Anonymous No.8691206]

>>8689698
It's true that exploration doesn't work as well with high level D&D, but you start BG2 at mid level and right away you are fighting beholders, liches, and dragons.The epicness should have been toned down a little.

[Anonymous No.8691269]

>>8687173
I am playing through icewind dale and having a blast. I just finished the vale of shadows and feel pretty good except for my mages seem weak as hell. I have a mage, a bard, and a thief/mage and they all have shitty selections for spells and like 3 total casts. I don't remember that being the case with bg or bg2. Is icewind just more physically oriented?

[Anonymous No.8692136]

>>8691206
>The epicness should have been toned down a little.
The first encounter with the dragon doesn't assume you defeat him. The lich is just a noob trap that you're supposed to die to and reload, then skip to something else. Beyond that, you only really encounter low level enemies like orcs, dwarves, shades, and some human casters.
The only reason you get to see beholders and liches is because you rush to underdark autistically selling the loot. The game wasn't designed to be min-maxed, that's why they added slayer form for all the gimped parties. You're mostly supposed to just do all the side quests and get the 20k without backtracking. That's why new locations open up *after* the underdark is finished.

[Anonymous No.8692163]

>>8687318
>Both games succeed - SH1 is about a demonic invasion of sorts
Well, actually...

[Anonymous No.8692169]

>>8692136
>The lich is just a noob trap that you're supposed to die to and reload
Probably not the same lich that I'm talking about, which is part of a sidequest in chapter 2 (I assume that you are talking about the one hidden in the inn). Beholders are also part of a sidequest in the sewers, which can be accessed in chapter 2 as well. There are actually 13 liches and 6 dragons in BG2, which is a lot more than I remember and feels excessive even by high level D&D standards. When you have that many epic enemies, they don't feel so epic anymore.

[Anonymous No.8692193]

It's story-heavy grindy bullshit. It's basically the Western response to the success of JRPGs. And it's trash, just like all "CRPGs" of the time and afterwards.
Go play Wizardry, or Bard's Tale, or Eye of the Beholder, and enjoy a true CRPG.

[Anonymous No.8692238]

>>8692193
>It's story-heavy grindy bullshit.
Retard. With the addition of SCS BG2 is one of the best tactical RPGs on par with Jagged Alliance 2.

[Anonymous No.8692250]

>>8692238
>tactical RPGs
>here, you can move people around a bit and it really doesn't make any difference, but it's now a "tactical RPG", that should give people ammunition to defend our shitty story-heavy boring clusterfuck "game"
Jesus fuck. I honestly don't understand how you people can even call yourself gamers. Go watch TV, that's all you kids care about anyway.

[Anonymous No.8692405]

>>8692250
Are you really questioning the depth of BG2's combat? Back to your jarpigs, retard.

[Anonymous No.8692416]

>>8692405
>find enemy
>equip appropriate items
>cast buffs/summons
>send in summons/tank
>cast damage spells
>heal/physically attack as needed
>repeat for every fight in the game
So deep

[Anonymous No.8692421]

>>8692416
Yes? That's why fighting dragons was an epic experience in BG, even in vanilla.
>what is SCS

[Anonymous No.8692459]

>>8686350
BG series is a Western JRPG.

[Anonymous No.8693383]

>>8686192
Absolutely correct, you can't beat low level adventures
And bg has less waifufaggotry which is already a huge plus.

[Anonymous No.8693535]

>>8691269
I seem to remember the spell selection (especially for druids) being better in IWD than BG. There is a spell merchant you can buy new scrolls from in Kuldahar if you didn't know. Number of casts per day is low at that point, mages take a few levels to get up to speed, but once you get higher level spells they will often win fights for you almost outright. I think the difference is players rest more often in BG1, but mages are somewhat weak at the start there as well. You level up quickly in IWD though, so it won't last long.
>>8692169
I agree with you. It should have been spaced out a bit more and probably toned down. Fighting two or three liches in order to unlock a fight with another lich is definitely too much - especially in a town that has at least two other hidden liches in it that you can find, from what I remember off the top of my head. Some things should only have been available after the return from Spellhold - e.g., the sewer quest reaches a natural stopping point, and then afterward, has developed further in your absence such that it now ends with the Beholders. Firkraag should have been stripped of his nobility or something in a quest pre-Spellhold, giving him extra motivation to actually kill you post-Spellhold. Things like that. It would have also made the world feel more like things happen of their own accord in the player's absence.
>>8692163
I stand by my statement. I don't think there's a meaningful distinction to be made on that point.
>>8692193
There's no grinding in BG2 whatsoever. It's possible to grind in BG1, but you really have to make a point of doing it, and it's far from necessary. It's more like helpful to speedrunners. Your other points in the thread are so dumb I don't want to hurt my brain by considering them long enough to write a response. You don't have to like BG2, but don't pull shit out your ass and expect anyone to want to listen to it.

[Anonymous No.8693726]

BG2 immediately annoyed me with
>actuallyyyy your party in BG1 was Jaheira, Jaheira's husband, minsc, and imoen.
no, it has never been that

[Anonymous No.8693730]

>>8686151
My girlfriend loves that shit, never understood why.

[Anonymous No.8693763]

>>8692416
>equip appropriate items
so what you're saying is that you need to carefully select each of six character's equipment to optimise their performance
>cast buffs / summons
so what you're saying is that you have to figure out which of literally scores of defensive / augmentation spells will maximise your chance of success in each encounter, and also supplement your party with magical allies to increase your chance of success
>send in summons / tank
oh? you mean you have to make tactical choices about which of your party (if any) to engage the enemy while other party members do support and / or ranged attacks?
>cast damage spells
which ones? there's dozens
>heal / physically attack as needed
no shit. "as needed". that's like saying the secret to winning chess is to take the other player's pieces "as needed"
>repeat for every fight in the game
factually incorrect, try fighting Mencar Pebblecrusher's party right out of Irenicus's dungeon with your starting party + Korgan with no extra equipment or sleep. Or the vampire / mummy tombs under the Athkatla graveyard with your starting party, Korgan and Jan. Like fuck will your reductionist tactics work in those situations.

[Anonymous No.8693767]

>>8693730
your girl is based and you don't deserve her, DM me her number if you dare

[Anonymous No.8693771]

>>8692459
factually incorrect since you literally cannot win every fight by hammering the A button while looking at pr0n on your phone

[Anonymous No.8694425]

>>8693535
Nice. My mages are slowly improving to get more casts. I guess I haven't played bg/bg2 long enough ago so I don't remember sleeping after every battle. Right now I am getting my ass kicked by the lizard king but still having fun. The bard is great btw

[Anonymous No.8694565]

>>8693767
Based

[Anonymous No.8694637]

>>8693763
I was really tempted to make a snarky reply, but you know what, I'm just glad you enjoy the game so much. That's what really counts.

[Anonymous No.8695242]

>>8693767
>DM
Spotted the zoomie

[Anonymous No.8695247]

>>8693730
>girlfriend(male)

[Anonymous No.8695252]

>>8694425
Protip anon, crowd control and buff spells go a LOT further than damage spells.

[Anonymous No.8695285]

Potential spoilers for Silent Hill 1, proceed with caution

>>8693535
>I stand by my statement. I don't think there's a meaningful distinction to be made on that point.
I don't know how deep you have looked into the plot, but it is a common perception that SH1's story is about the occult, and more external threats in general, while SH2 is more inwards-looking and psychological. But this impression is due to the fact that SH1 tries very hard to conceal important parts of the narrative from the player. In actuality, Silent Hill 1 is not a story about occultism or demonic rituals.

[Anonymous No.8695321]

>>8694637
That's not how it works on 4chan. You're suppose to throw a shit fit whenever anyone talks about something you don't like.

[Anonymous No.8695454]

>>8687783
>the 45 second rule, which is a focus tested rule that CDPR, Ubisoft, and many other developers follow that dictates that the player shouldn't go longer than 45 seconds without being rewarded with stimuli.

[Anonymous No.8695667]

>>8687783
>BG2 seems to be the first open world to follow the 45 second rule, which is a focus tested rule that CDPR, Ubisoft, and many other developers follow that dictates that the player shouldn't go longer than 45 seconds without being rewarded with stimuli.
Which works massively to its disadvantage because once you finish the giant errand run that is your journal, the game instantly fizzles out. There are no more places to explore, quests to take or exploration to do. It's like the railroaded theme park is silently telling you "this is the end of the ride, please finish the game".

[Anonymous No.8695672]

>>8695321
>>8694637
You had no snarky replies to begin with, zoomer. You made a retarded claim that tried to mirepresent the game's actual appeal as something you subjective is le dum, and got thoroughly debunked by the other anon.
Also
>frogposter
Fuck off to /v/

[Anonymous No.8695687]

>>8695667
Well bg 1 consists of exploring areas and searching every single house on a map and opening chests and trying not to be seen opening one

[Anonymous No.8695761]

>>8687173
>1 and 2 feel the same in that regard
Not at all. BG1 had some rough edges with regards to dungeon design for the engine and maybe tedium of trekking across open terrain (which never bothered me). But it felt very much like adventuring in a slice of Forgotten Realms; both the wilderness and city.

2 is way different, with Athkatla as your theme park hub and quests sending you to each dungeon ride. And dungeons are often paced very rapidly to keep up with the desired quest pacing, where as one example you encounter some lunatic cultists on the street and an hour later you're deep underground discovering a lost ancient city and you intervene in a conflict between a forgotten god and a beholder mage over a powerful artifact. The whole game is like that, basically. Most of the world is left undefined, except for the parts you specifically need for quests.

Don't get me wrong, I think BG2 is a fantastic game but I also think that it was a little too influential for its own good.

[Anonymous No.8695797]

>>8686589
Good post but it's fairly hard for a game to simultaneously present a compelling epic story and not pick sides morally. It can be done but it's really easy to wind up with something that's just empty and meaningless. Beyond that you wind up with a lot of futzing about with just having different stakes for good vs evil characters which winds up feeling like trivial differences.

[Anonymous No.8695834]

>>8686151
does a mod guide exist? the enhanced versions suck.

[Anonymous No.8695857]

>>8695834
No, because there are tons of mods for this game.

[Anonymous No.8695917]

>>8695857
doom has many as well, but that does not stop people from making images that are guides that introduce players to those needed for modern systems and for improving the game on those systems.

[Anonymous No.8695920]

>>8693730
shes a keeper

[Anonymous No.8695935]

>>8695285
How is it not? Is there any differentiation that can be made between a legitimate demon and a psychological impression of a legitimate demon made manifest by the town's supernatural powers? Would you distinguish between an actual dog chasing you and a dog that is more all intents and purposes real because someone's mental image of a dog was given physical form and it's now chasing you? Or are you talking about something else?
>>8695667
Are there open world games that do it differently? BG1 is this way, the GTA games are this way, Morrowind is this way. You run out of content on everything eventually.
>>8695797
You're right. For BG2 they do it well enough for the main quest - you can be motivated by revenge for hunting Irenicus, or just wanting your stuff back, or to free Imoen, etc., and that's really all you need to kick it off. I meant in regards to the rest of the game. Usually if there's an evil route to some local quest, it involves not getting The Big Reward, or you get some similar reward but half the XP, etc. The pay-offs for completing quests the "Good"-aligned way are almost always objectively superior, and for no real reason - you're completing the quest either way, and sometimes the evil route is more difficult if anything. I seem to recall this being worse in BG1 though.
>>8695834
>enhanced versions suck
Not all mods are EE-compatible, if that's what you're playing with. Ascension is a popular mod for ToB, Sword Coast Stratagems is a very customizable difficulty/balance mod I strongly recommend, I think there is a general community "fixpack" mod that has a bunch of assorted small fixes made, and there is also Unfinished Business, which adds back in some quests that were partially present, but unfinished or inactive, in the original game (I don't recall the quality of these). It depends on what you want to tweak. E.g. there are mods that add IWD spells or change how thief skills are balanced, adjust the reputation system...

[Anonymous No.8695985]

>>8695935
>if that's what you're playing with
no i am only interested in the original version, i tried the enhanced when they came out and did not like them.

[Anonymous No.8696310]

>>8695242
I'm actually in my late forties, I don't even know what a DM is I'm just repeating what fellow kids have said

[Anonymous No.8696330]

>>8695667
>once you finish the giant errand run that is your journal, the game instantly fizzles out
When the game ends it ends? What do you expect, endless content?

[Anonymous No.8696458]

>>8696310
>I don't even know what a DM is
Dungeon Master

[Anonymous No.8696469]

Facts- the best thing about baldurs gate 2 is the dark elf companion mod for oblivion.

[Anonymous No.8697127]

>>8696330
>>8695935
Your zoomer reading comprehension is absolutely embarrassing. This was about the 45 second rule, the equivalent of Skyrim's quest marker chasing. You being literally dumbfounded when this is pointed out is pretty conclusive on why you should fuck off to /v/.

[Anonymous No.8697276]

1 is better.

[Anonymous No.8697305]

>>8695454
>no, you're not allowed to study what makes players enjoy games more and implement your findings in your games!

[Anonymous No.8697703]

what are some good kit mods for this and iwdee?

[Anonymous No.8697737]

>>8695672
Yikes dude. I'm just trying to be nicer to people here because I feel lucky that other people enjoy retro games like I do. It can be a lonely hobby IRL so I think it's important to build friendly online communities for it.

[Anonymous No.8697907]

>>8695935
Well, the way you spelled out the distinction between SH 1 and SH 2 - the first being about a demonic invasion and the later about guilt, seemed to me to fit well with the conventional interpretation of SH1 being about external horrors and SH 2 about internal ones. Few would say for example that SH2 is about a a triangular demon hunting down James, but it is common to think that SH1 is about the resurrection of an dark God - and not about the tortured mind of a young girl, for example. Not necessarily disagreeing with you, I just wanted to make the point about the psychological element being strong from early in the series. Even now many think that Alessa's mind was able to conjure the otherworld because of the influence of Incubus/Incubator while in reality he is a creation of her mind on the same level with the dogs or the pterodactyls. In general, the interpretation of the otherworld as being caused by "the God of Silent Hill' is not uncommon

[Anonymous No.8698007]

>>8697737
4chins is not your friends

[Anonymous No.8698952]

>>8697127
How can you misinterpret your own writing? I don't know if I've ever seen someone do that before. Read your post again - the entire subject is how the game handles the transition to the ending once you run out of theme park rides. The implication is that the 45-second rule caused you no issues for the rest of the game. You avoided indicating which games you believe did better. Either learn to present your ideas in the format other humans use, or seek mental help so you're able to do so when you return.
>>8697907
I think we agree! I was referring more to a player's first experience of the game - Alessa's role in what is happening is almost a plot twist, whereas the player's perceived experience is that of a cult bringing a demon's influence over a town. To that extent, there's no difference to the player whether it's actually the case or not. The reality of the town is becoming that of a hellish nightmare, and the game's aesthetic, music, and so forth all back that up. Therefore, to Harry and the player, they are trying to resist a demonic invasion to rescue their daughter, regardless of the underlying cause (which is as you state, and why in my original post I said many people finish that game and don't even realize what the actual plot was). In SH2, the issues happening are explicitly linked in some way to James and his wife from the very beginning, and the game foreshadows and hints (heavily!) at the nature of the situation the entire way through. Accordingly, the tone and atmosphere of SH2 is very different than that to SH1. In SH2 you never get the feeling that what is happening is relevant to people beyond James and the other couple people in the town, or that the town is actively trying to kill everyone. In SH1, the tone is hostile, your daughter's life is at stake, and the danger seems at risk of spreading beyond the town. Thus, while people say they are the "same genre, horror", they are quite distinct in mood.

[Anonymous No.8699012]

>>8697305
Ideally, you'd eschew exploitation of the psychology in a soulless, cynical way.

[Anonymous No.8699364]

>>8686151
good mods from https://www.gibberlings3.net ?

[Anonymous No.8699818]

>>8697737
I'm the guy who you said appreciated the game. Well, I appreciate your frogpost so rock on brother and ignore the haters.

[Anonymous No.8699820]

>>8698007
I'm 4chan and I am your friend, so EAT SHIT!

[Anonymous No.8701457]

>>8687161
>/lilura1.blogspot
Nice website! Thanks!

[Anonymous No.8702259]

>>8687161
that website, it's interesting but as you read on it becomes apparent the writer is an old man shaking his fist at clouds. He (or she, could be trans I guess) is very angry about people who recommend skipping BG1 and going straight to BG2, which I have never ever seen anyone do. Giant strawman. He (or she, could be trans I guess) is also very angry because the plot of BG2 doesn't conform to the lovely story they made up in their heads about journeying through the Okahumpta Mountains or some nonsense.

It is true that the Infinity Engine games are at their funnest when you are trying to beat an enemy much more powerful than you by making clever use of limited resources. But that happens in BG2 as well.

Side note, the writer of that website thinks the fucking SWORDFLIGHT MODULE FROM NWN1 is the BEST D&D CRPG ever made. I've played Swordflight, and its and astoundingly stupid to assert that, which kind of devalues his (or hers, could be trans I guess) opinions elsewere in the article

[Anonymous No.8702285]

>>8690213
That is just, such an unbelievably mongy take on FO2. You've legit got aspergers or something, right?

[Anonymous No.8702628]

>>8702259
>could be trans I guess
Good chuckle each time. NTA, but I also throw out half of what Lilura says, since he/os,cbtIg has some staggering biases. There are some solid nuggets and good observations worth digging for, though.
>skipping BG1 and going straight to BG2
I've seen plenty of people recommend that here, and I've even told people that they should try BG1, but if they burn out or get bored, they should rush to the end and go for BG2 because BG1 likely isn't their kind of game. I think everyone needs to give BG1 a shot, but it's in a slightly different sub-genre than BG2, so I can see there being people that only like one of the two.
>Swordflight
I've always wondered about that part. The out-of-the-box NWN campaign was the single most disappointing gaming experience I've ever had in my life, so that's always biased me against trying any of the later/community content (which is great, everyone says). But I knew his/oh,cbtIg opinion on Swordflight would either be insightful or staggeringly irrational.

[Anonymous No.8702793]

>>8702628
The author of that blog just seems out of touch with reality. Here's a quote when describing BG2
>This decadent design appeals to people with short attention spans, limited gaming aptitude and no gaming pedigree to speak of.
There's only one thing RPGs should require and reward and that's wanting to commit to the game's world. Gaming aptitude or pedigree don't matter. Gaming is subjective.
This guy claims BG2 rewards short-attention spans, and is poorly designed, but the reality is there's so much complexity of choice in BG2 within the combat system, as well as complexity in maintaining your party (literally being dragged off on a quest to save Jaheira), that it can overwhelming compared to BG1. It's more gripping in that way, but also poses hardcore challenges that you would never be put against in BG1.
It's very strange that this guy's favorite "RPG" is Jagged Alliance 2, which as a game is closer to a roguelike like Darkest Dungeon.

[Anonymous No.8703096]

>>8702793
I disagree with them about their BG2 complaints, for much of what you state. I know I read somewhere that Lilura openly hates forced story content (like cutscenes) and character banters, which most people are on board with. He prefers RPGs to be mostly difficult combat affairs (RPG mechanics > RPG narrative); that could be why he likes Jagged Alliance 2 (if it's similar to Darkest Dungeon I see your analogy).
Really I just wanted to clarify what he meant by "gaming pedigree". I believe the point is that people who have played most of the seminal RPGs might have expected more from BG2, something that elevated it above BG1 and other games in the series and moved the genre forward. They're saying that it's appealing to people who are newer to the genre, but that people looking for deeper/novel content won't find it. I don't agree with that either, since as you've noted the game has rather complex systems and most people will bounce off of them, and also because I think BG2 wasn't intending to be "BG1 but bigger", they are different in terms of their structural design. I think Lilura finds the lack of open-endedness (among other things) a step backwards in the genre, but BG2 was never trying to achieve that kind of open-world in the way that, say, Morrowind was going for, so it's stupid to judge it by that criterion. To me, it's similar to saying that Tetris is a bad game because it's a step backwards on the story and plot fronts.
But while I think you're right that what you get out of the game will be subjective, but I wouldn't say that aptitude or pedigree don't matter. Some RPGs explicitly try to be challenging, and some people prefer them to be challenging, others want to casually grind away in a JRPG to relieve workday stress or something. Also, pedigree definitely matters as it relates to the subjective part of novelty: if games A and B are very similar, but you play A first, you won't find B as impressive. Large pedigree = higher expectation of novelty.

[Anonymous No.8703170]

>>8703096
Yes, BG2 does its thing, which involves romances as well as a balance split between the mechanical and story-oriented.
The most glaring error in claiming that this kind of balance was a failed approach is quickly debunked by the fact alone just how insanely replayable BG2 has proven to be.
And again, he cites JA2 as his favorite game, and aside from that the game is more akin to a roguelike, you have to notice that JA2 *does* *have* HEAVY emphasis on character interaction and their backstories. Which is exactly what BG1 is lacking, as the characters are mostly blank slates used for role-playing, which is also something that takes away from its replayability.

[Anonymous No.8703673]

>>8702259
People recommend skipping bg1 all the time.
Granted, it's often in the context of someone saying they're not having fun with bg1 and about to give up on the series. In that case, try bg2 first it might be worth it.

Anyway, that guy makes good points about the game regardless of his view of the meta