/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.8468378]

Don't you love that vidya companies put untold hours and $$$ in rendering top notch CG for their games, but no one could be bothered to at least rerender them in HD for a cheap modern port?
>CG would be rendered faster than real time on modern hardware
>vidya consoles could even render them in real time with no considerable loss of quality
>game rereleases could even make a virtual museum out of the CG environments
>no real time rendered CGI RE1 mansion game
>no 1920x1080 aya shower scene

[Anonymous No.8468392]

This makes the huge assumption that these companies properly archived the 3D scene data or maintained the capability of rerendering any of it when it came time for an HD remaster

[Anonymous No.8468396]

They apparently deleted all the background files and other assets to free up space back when that was at a premium. Resident Evil 0 is the only one I know of that survived because someone backed up everything. Which makes sense because it was one of the very last games with pre-rendered backgrounds I remember seeing.

[Anonymous No.8468401]

It's free money with machine learning upscale. Maybe the Japs don't know what machine learning is.

[Anonymous No.8468408]

>>8468396
and it's easily the best looking one, it looks even better than REmake despite both being released the same year. A shame the game sucks.

[Anonymous No.8468413]

>>8468401
>machine learning upscale

[Anonymous No.8468417]

>>8468392
>properly archived
Yeah I think that's the #1 issue here. I'm sure that they could find one professional to write a tool to convert files from an old software package to a new viable one easily for rendering them again though. They're supposed to be fucking professionals after all.

[Anonymous No.8468458]

>>8468378
>>8468417
>They're supposed to be fucking professionals after all.
The product is done, the game is out the door. They expected that next year they would make a new game, and next gen, even better, NEW games. No one thought we would be re-remaking the same fucking crap over and over again.

[Anonymous No.8468471]

>>8468417
The issue is that raw the files literally don't exist anymore. All you have to work with are the 320x240 (or whatever resolution) flat image files.

[Anonymous No.8468474]

>>8468413
kek

[Anonymous No.8468482]

>>8468471
You don't know that for sure, nobody does.
The way I see it the only reason the re-releases of RE3 had 640*480 backgrounds and the re-releases of RE2 didn't was because RE3 devs worked with 640*480 backgrounds to begin with.

That doesn't mean the raw CG don't exist anymore. Remaking the backgrounds from the 3D renders is a whole other beast compared to just using already existing 640*480 backgrounds, especially if they worked on the background images as 2D files after the CG renders (as in, the backgrounds aren't direct "screenshots" of the CG renders, they worked on them after the fact; which is how REmake worked and the whole reason why the HD remaster can look worse than the GC version)

[Anonymous No.8468491]

>>8468396
>They apparently deleted all the background files and other assets to free up space back when that was at a premium.
I think Sega was notorious for doing this with anything that wasn't Sonic. I remember reading a story years and years ago about how the source code and all game assets for all the Panzer Dragoon games are lost forever because disk space.

[Anonymous No.8468529]

>>8468482
>You don't know that for sure, nobody does.
JAPAN. SEGA.

[Anonymous No.8468534]

>>8468491
>>8468396
That's mostly a made up meme. Never trust anyone claiming something only a primary would know without a primary source.

[Anonymous No.8468546]

>>8468529
The one time this was supposedly proven to be true as reported on by a handful of media outlets (panzer saga), it was confirmed to be bullshit when a primary source spoke out about it. Never trust these "le japs archive nothing xDDD" redditers. Unless you have some real, solid proof of someone who knows about that shit, assume nothing.

[Anonymous No.8468552]

Anon, Jap devs are notorious for salting the earth when a project is done, and Square themselves have a pretty bad reputation when it comes to preservation. iirc Square had to re-do a bunch of shit when porting Kingdom heats 1 for for their collection.

Why?

Because they had lost the original files:

https://www.ign.com/articles/2013/06/27/original-kingdom-hearts-assets-lost

I can't find the exact quote right now, but I swear there was another SE interview where we learned that at one point company policy was that in order to save on disc space for their workstations they would routinely delete their projects once they were done.

In fact, when SE released the collection of Mana port on the Switch, the port for Trials of Mana came from Nintendo who still had the original master as they had received a copy of it to print the cartridges with back in the 90s. (Also likely the reason collection of Mana was only on the Switch)

[Anonymous No.8468559]

>>8468546
REzero hd remaster has full HD renders.
REmake 1 hd remasr has terrible low res renders upscaled and photoshoped with terrible results.

Doesn't matter if the files still exist SOMEWERE, (they might not even know were they are if they did) they are never getting used.

[Anonymous No.8468609]

>>8468559
>spin-off prequel originally meant as fodder for the n64 is better preserved than the big budget full fledged remake of the very first game in the franchise
Capcom being Capcom, i guess.
It stopped being surprising to hear about their bizarre incompetence 5 years ago.

[Anonymous No.8469290]

capcom lost thier old files for remake. im assuming they lost them for re2 and 3 as well. at least they saved the re0 ones

[Anonymous No.8469313]

Spoiler: Those renders would look garbage by today's standards anyway, like early CGI films do.

Better thing to do would be just starting from scratch.

[Anonymous No.8469336]

>>8469313
re2's renders look better than remake 2.

[Anonymous No.8471828]

>>8469336
wait a minute, if the hunk boys stole the virus from the lab, then made it to the sewers before getting got by birkin, were they plannin to just walk out of the RPD with it?

[Anonymous No.8471837]

>>8468408
It's a decent RE game with some boring parts. Its problems are overstated.

[Anonymous No.8471853]

Back in 2000 I worked for a company that ported a then recent (shovelware) game from one console to another. The 3D files they gave us would only open in a specific version of softimage and then afterwards we found out that the geometry and the animations weren't compatible with each other because they had lost the final geometry and just fobbed us off with some old backups of pre-release files. In my current job an artist can lose the source PSD for a fucking web banner by the afternoon. Never trust an artist to give a shit about their job.

[Anonymous No.8471868]

>>8471828
I think it's safe to assume they could have taken the sewers to anywhere in the city. You wind up in the lab from the police station because Ada wants you to go there.

[Anonymous No.8471889]

Can someone actually tell me why we went away from pre-rendered backgrounds entirely? It could still work for a lot of games/genres (fighting games, any modern adventure game, anyone willing to make an old style RE-esque game).

Fighting games in particular are weird to me in how they don't bother to use them.

[Anonymous No.8471909]

>>8471889
Pre-rendered backdrops were kind of an artefact of the time. There weren't many experienced 3D game developers at the time, but there were experienced CGI artists. You could hire a bunch of guys to drive Lightwave 3D or whatever and generate some backgrounds and then your realtime guys have a huge burden taken off their shoulders.
But then as resolutions increase the amount of talent necessary to make a CGI backdrop that's significantly better than what you can do in realtime goes up tremendously. Given that pre-rendered backdrops means time consuming camera matching and separating into layers for depth and re-rendering when something changes, past a certain point it became easier to do everything in realtime and the players were more accepting of lower fidelity if it meant they could move the camera around.

[Anonymous No.8471917]

>>8471909
Ah that makes sense.
thanks anon

[Anonymous No.8471956]

>>8471889
>>8471909
It also looks janky as fuck in games like RE1 remake and 0 when fire, muzzle flashes, etc. light up the characters and enemies but don't cast light on the environment at the same time. I guess that wouldn't be an issue for every game and there might be some kind of workaround though.

[Anonymous No.8471964]

>>8468378
i'm still angry that square lost KH1 forever

[Anonymous No.8471979]

>>8468392
Or that these images were rendered in 1920x1080 in the first place. Toy Story 1 was always rendered in a lower resolution than that, which meant having to rerender the movie for the Blu-Ray.

[Anonymous No.8471991]

>>8468458
Isn't that part of the reason why they were able to crank out so many high quality backgrounds too? No need to worry about documentation or archiving slowing the process down. It's all gonna be obliterated in 6 months anyway.

[Anonymous No.8471995]

just a friendly reminder that more pixels /= more quality

[Anonymous No.8472007]

>>8468378
Same reason you put however much work into random school projects back when you were a kid and don't have all your drafts saved. You just never saw any reason to do so. It was just a job and the product was out and done with.

[Anonymous No.8472027]

>>8469336
absolutely SOVLful. I hate how re2make's aesthetic looks so clean and shiny. The original was grimy and grungy and that's totally lost.

[Anonymous No.8472158]

>>8468552
Its also worth noting that once you entered the 3D age, the workflow favored master files that eventually got rendered or reduced to the final product.
And without a good SVN workflow, its honestly a fucking mess. I can see why they favored nuking over writing on a longterm storage medium such as dense cassetes.

And this being Japan, art as commercial activity is temporary.
Its very different from the archive ideals of the west, even if it seldom gets used.

[Anonymous No.8472198]

I feel like even if you had the assets, some of these scenes would look awful re-rendered at higher resolutions.
90s CG looks really flat compared to modern renderers. You don't see the flaws when the image is low res, but if you blew it up to 4k you would probably start seeing how ugly it truly is.

[Anonymous No.8472246]

>>8472198

This. But fags won't listen, they'll just say that's SOVL.

Watch those early 90s Pixar renders and shit in HD. They look like total ass, the lighting has this sterile quality to it that makes everything feel really alien. That's what these would look like if you could see them in high res.

On a CRT they look incredible, but really the entire reason these looked good was just a unique aspect of the display technology at the time. It's a historical coincidence that will likely never be repeated.

[Anonymous No.8472312]

>>8469313
>>8472198
soulless

[Anonymous No.8472325]

>>8472246
I actually like that stuff though.

[Anonymous No.8472347]

>>8472246
this is the future you chose. thank you for you service

[Anonymous No.8472372]

>>8472347
I like those both for different reasons. It's kind of a retarded image, comparing scenes that are going for completely different effect.

[Anonymous No.8472458]

>>8468413
Thanks anon

[Anonymous No.8472583]

>>8468552
>the port for Trials of Mana came from Nintendo who still had the original master as they had received a copy of it to print the cartridges with back in the 90s
Reminder that they never specified any titles, and that they said "games," in plural.

[Anonymous No.8472653]

>>8471956
You can take the geometry from the CGI and use that as the target for a lightmap. The area in REmake where you use the 4 masks to open the crimson head coffin was part realtime so that the light sources could cast onto the player and so the player could cast a shadow onto the "background." But the more of that stuff you do the closer you get to the point where you just say fuck it and do everything realtime.

[Anonymous No.8472686]

>>8472198
I agree to disagree anon, the way scenes were built in 3D is absolutely charming, only when they tried to push the media in a way that's inadequate for the tech that made stuff look legitimately bad. It's like comparing a room from Resident Evil on the PS1 vs. Philemon's cutscenes on Persona.

[Anonymous No.8472763]

Does the fact that all these game developers never saved the source data for their projects finally put the rest the idea that "video games are art?"
Not even their creators thought so, apparently.

[Anonymous No.8472812]

>>8472763
There are paintings in the Louvre right now that have other paintings underneath the "art" that we can see. Artists painted much of what we consider "art" on commission and if Lord Fuckwad didn't pay his bill it got painted over.

[Anonymous No.8472818]

>>8468378
The working files are probably gone, would need to be loaded on software for specific era hardware, or be converted to modern software.
And most people don't give a shit like you do, so the monetary incentive isn't there.
They could've used some for sight and render them all out at a higher res at the time and saved them for later tho.

[Anonymous No.8472828]

>>8468413
ML upscalers do a pretty good job. Not an algorithmic filter. They're not perfect yet though, and need a lot of training, so if anything is out of the ordinary in your scene it may misinterprete it.
Still, it could be used as a base for manual cleanup.

[Anonymous No.8472840]

>>8471979
Pixar damn near lost the entirety of toy story... 2 I wanna say? Someone accidentally recursively deleted damn near the whole movie and it's backups. The only reason they got it back was because some lady had the whole thing backed up at home because she wanted to work while sick or on maternity leave or some such.

[Anonymous No.8472921]

>>8472828
IMHO ML upscales are just as bad as HQ2x or 2Sai and such. They manage to preserve the lines, but the "detail" they add is a series of noisy swirls that make all ML upscales look like they were all attacked with a paintbrush filter. It's also why you can't really ML upscale a video because it's temporally inconsistent and so gives the entirety of the trick away. You can't even use it as a base for manual touch up as it's the detail that needs completely redoing so you might as well just start from a bicubic upscale.
ML was sadly just another dead end technology. It got you 90% of the way there, but that last 10% has made no progress whatsoever in years and years. The fundamental flaw is that ML algorithms are developed from functional languages by Math professors. Pure math doesn't get on with procedural algorithms and so each "block" that the ML algo is working on can pass no information to the other blocks beyond some weighted averages. This leads to 99 failures for every 1 happy accident and nothing to do other than rerun the fun with a new set of training data and hope for a brighter future.

[Anonymous No.8472936]

>>8472347

[Anonymous No.8473079]

>>8468392
first post most educated
It mostly has to do with properly archiving scene data. The same problem FF7 development saw, being once the game was mastered, the raw model data was tossed out. Storage was that much more costly in 1996.

[Anonymous No.8473271]

>>8472763
>>8472812
Historians are finding all kinds of shit when they x-ray or use infrared photography on old paintings. The big story a while back was that the Mona Lisa has multiple layers underneath it and might have originally started as a self-portrait of Da Vinci before being sketched over as a goddess before being painted over with the outer layer it has now.

Semi-related, I forget who the artist was but I remember reading about a classical artist whose most valuable painting in modern times is one he painted on the wood from the end of a barrel because he was broke and couldn't afford canvas. Apparently that shit was expensive in the past, and artists tended to be poorfags, so paintings would get covered all the time.

[Anonymous No.8473780]

>>8472027
Its just like the remake of re1 but it was the opposite,it when from clean to disgusting.
Guess you can never trust a remake.

[Anonymous No.8474062]

>>8472763
>Does the fact that all these game developers never saved the source data for their projects
And there are many that did it. It also happened with film, with Fox even dismissing the infamous 1937 vault fire, saying that only "old" films were lost.
The Two Waters (A dos aguas) is an Argentine film that only exists thanks to a VHS release. Neither the film director nor the National Institute of Cinema and Audiovisual Arts has the original film master.
Universal Music Group did not care to preserve their original tape masters, and a fire ate them in 2008.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/11/magazine/universal-fire-master-recordings.html
Some anons have posted painting examples.
Why are most "video games are not art" arguments so fucking retarded?

[Anonymous No.8474256]

>>8472921
I think you ought to look into it again, because you can upscale video. And plenty of image upscalers don't toss around noisy swirls.
And to call ML a dead end tech is straight absurd.