/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.8323278]

The more RPGs i play on the PS1, the more it makes me mad that nobody talks about them and it makes me realize just how truely shallow and godawful FF7 is. Now it's truely nostalgia when i play it but that's due to the music which is all it really has going for it, i feel most people never replayed this game or branched out to other RPGs on the PS1 and instead stuck with FF which skewed their perspective. Don't even think this is a top 20 Square Enix game

[Anonymous No.8323283]

What are your thoughts on FFVI, OP?

[Anonymous No.8323285]

>>8323283
The A Link to the Past of RPG, you get a completed game then i assume development was going so well they added a whole new game in their, you think it's over when Kefka blows up the world but then it's not, that was only the beginning. Pretty fucking insane, but not having sprint shoes is bullshit and i hate the Veldt and having to get the food for that caveman asshole filtered me on my replay last year

[Anonymous No.8323291]

>>8323285
Weird really, I think FFVI and VII are incredibly similar games to a T, both sharing the same faults and strengths, with slight differences. Why do you consider VI to be a success and VII to be a failure, in your opinion? You never elaborated on why VII was bad in the first place.

[Anonymous No.8323301]

>>8323291
I started on FF10 with the remaster, i enjoyed it because it was my first one, no perspective into the series. Then i played FF7 on the PS4, i liked it a lot because that game was a hallway, the characters were pretty bland so it was very easy for me to wowed by FF7 in comparison to that, then i went on and played FF8 it sucked, i moved onto FF9 in terms of characters, soundtrack, worldbuilding, it's better than FF7 but at a sacrifice for the character development the story moves at a snails pace, FF7 starts out strong and doesn't become sluggish until Golden Saucer giving you all of the heavy hitting moments right out of the gate, FF9 is a slow burn of character development everyone has a arc but reaching the end of their arcs takes 3 discs and by the end it's a shit grind towards a rushed anti climatic ending. FF6 does everything FF9 tried to do, with the strong start of FF6, there's not really anything i would consider filler aside from the Veldt bullshit which i already elaborated on. Due to not having FMV shit it's the only FF game post 6 that feels like a complete game. FF7 ditched the ensemble cast in favor of it just being Cloud & Sephiroth's story, you realize that after playing FF6 & FF9, there's no ensemble cast, the world is very barren and bland, most of the stuff i remembered was at the start, Midgar was the only place that felt developed. It felt more like a tech demo since it was the first 3D entry rather than a good game, the character models aged really bad and the rest of the cast seems very disconnected from the overall narrative of Cloud chasing Sephiroth around, at one point i remember being told to actually quit the game because the pacing was so bad, it said "Stop now" which was after Cloud went to the wheelchair. It has a strong start but a godawful middle and a somewhat strong ending. Everything in-between the first 5 hours and the last 5 hours in the 40-50 hour runtime sucks

[Anonymous No.8323317]

VII is GOAT
Shut up
YWNB1st class

[Anonymous No.8323321]

>>8323278
>No one ever talks about the obscure RPGs! They only ever talk about ff7!
>So anyway, about ff7...

[Anonymous No.8325186]

>>8323278
I didn't own a PS1 till recently, so it always made me wonder why people think it's a classic. Played the remaster and I could see why people like it a lot, but it didn't hit me as hard as people who played it in the era. Always preferred 2D games for the most part, but I think that it's just that FF7 came out at exactly the perfect time. I remember anime cons were full of FF7 stuff, same for those old newgrounds flash anims. It's like Pokemon Red and Blue: definitely not the best games in that series, but they came out at the perfect moment and created a storm.
Used to be upset about it overshadowing stuff, but dude, you eventually realize it doesn't really matter. There will always be a place for the more niche shit. Think about wha that other anon said and talk more about the games you want to show to others, instead of just pushing FF7 forward by saying it's overrated for the upteenth time. I still think Parasite Eve was a better game, and love Threads of Fate (and the fangame for it wasn't half bad).

[Anonymous No.8325212]

>>8323321
Kek, it's over for OP

[Anonymous No.8326296]

>>8325186
I hadn't heard of Dewprism (Threads of Fate) till now. It's interesting that it has something that looks just like the Judge Sword from Final Fantasy Tactics Advance in it.

[Anonymous No.8326328]

>>8323278
anyone who is still talking about FFVII, regardless of if it's their favourite or not, on 4channel.gov in current year has definitely delved into the PS1's RPG library

[Anonymous No.8326357]

>>8323278
I’ll never get why FFVII took off when it’s so clearly a puberty game for Square. Ugly as sin compared to its contemporaries and mechanically flat, playing it is like eating a pancake with no butter or syrup.
Story is pretty cool though

[Anonymous No.8326358]

>>8323321
Damn destroyed

[Anonymous No.8327508]

>>8326296
Its such a shame that the game is so clunky. It feels like modern indie game made by 2 people. I was really looking forward to playing it but its just bad.

[Anonymous No.8327528]

>>8323278
I replayed this game a month before the remake came out. It was even better than I remembered it and now I hold it in even higher regard.
Its not the best game ever but its a solid 8 or 9/10

[Anonymous No.8327537]

>>8323278
>Don't even think this is a top 20 Square Enix game

It's a Squaresoft game, not a Square Enix game you gay dickbubble

[Anonymous No.8327538]

>>8326296
Weird little game, probably shared a designer or two, honestly. Loved it and how colorful the setting was, though. It's that wonderful combo of late PS1 models and colorful.

[Anonymous No.8327552]

>>8323278
Played it back in 2012 and was really underwhelmed. Trying to sell an emotional experience with expressionless character models was not a great idea. The tone is also all over the place - it'll be pushing something big and emotional one minute, then engage in whacky shenanigans the next. Definitely not a bad game; definitely many redeeming features, but after all I'd heard about it, I was not impressed.

By contrast, I played Panzer Dragoon Saga last year, and found it still felt modern. The combat system is unique, and the developer's focus on vast spaces and an ancient world inspire feelings of awe. The emotional moments never really land, but it feels like a religious experience. It certainly wasnt any worse than FFVII, and it's disappointing that it's basically vanished into history.

[Anonymous No.8327605]

The fact that there are a bunch of pointless mandatory minigames like CPR is really dumb. FFVII really feels more like an adventure game than an RPG sometimes. Once I finished the first boat trip, I just didn't give a shit anymore, this game's pacing is awful and it's shameful that this game is as much of a cultural phenomenon as it is.

[Anonymous No.8327705]

>>8327552
>Trying to sell an emotional experience with expressionless character models was not a great idea.
They aren't expressionless character models. Indeed, the whole point of the silly, blocky-looking appearance is to make them as expressive as possible given low-poly constraints.

[Anonymous No.8327720]

>>8327552
>Panzer Dragoon Saga
>it's disappointing that it's basically vanished into history.
Yeah, well, it was an RPG spin-off of a rail shooter franchise that came out a year after Final Fantasy VII on a system nobody owned.

[Anonymous No.8328594]

>>8327705
I'll grant that was hyperbole, but not by much. Compare that still to visual novels released even ten years earlier. It's no contest. Seeing them for the first time now, they look AWFUL.

>>8327720
Yeah, not surprising at all. Still a shame.

[Anonymous No.8328616]

>>8323278
Can't say I agree. I've played a ton of PSX RPGs and still consider FFVII one of the best.

[Anonymous No.8329393]

>>8328594
>Compare that still to visual novels, barely-games that consist of nothing but stills intended to depict character expressions
Not exactly a fair comparison.
> released even ten years earlier
From 1987? Really?
>Seeing them for the first time now, they look AWFUL
There's no accounting for taste.
FF7 looks great, especially when animated, which is how they were designed (hence the difficulty comparing stills). The models are all distinct and colorful. They pop from the (extraordinarily detailed) backgrounds, with a wide range of expressions ranging from Barret's quivering rage, to Cloud's nonchalance, to Tifa's shyness. It's not just looking at a still of a human rendering and imagining what expression such a model could be capable of, but actually used in every scene of the 40-hour game, which includes every component of the Final Fantasy template as it existed at the time (overworld map, town/dungeon areas, and a separate battle system), which is what fans of the series expected and wanted.

[Anonymous No.8329447]

Hope this thread is trolling and people weren't right about what they said about zoomers being completely unable to comprehend anything they weren't railroaded into.
FF7 is highly regarded as one of the best games ever due to:
Completely unique characters and story as well as unique environments and NPC's which have looks and dalogue which can"t be found elsewhere.
Extraordinary music which had the freedom of the unique setting to be original and use the distinct sounds of the Roland synth with which it was made to its advantage.
A main character that doesn't fall into a single trope and relates to a lot of people due to being a little bit of everything, like real people are.
A romance people actually cared about.
A villian actually established and built correctly who had his own motives but got heat properly and had a perfect payoff.
Tons of memorables enemies and bosses.
Tons of fun, variated and challenging mini-games and sidequests.
A completely unique combat and equip system that allows tons of creativity.
Tons of ways to impose challenges on yourself if you're interested in that
Completely unique looking pre-rendered backgrounds that look amazing.
Cartoonish character models which allow players to USE THEIR IMAGINATION instead of trying to rely on 'realistic' shit and having everything spelled out for them.
Great menu / UI design.
Ambiguous storyline which noy everyone understands completely and leaves room for mystery.
Tons of backstory and possibility for future events.
Tons of themes and 'deeper meanings' to things in the game.
A clear impression of creativity and newness to everything about the game.
Etc...
There's a reason it's so popular and long-lasting. Everybody isn't wrong, maybe not everyone will like it, but there are many reasons why people still love it decades later, and it's not because they're 'stupid bad people' and you don't have some deep insight into why they're actually all mistaken.

[Anonymous No.8329468]

>>8329447
Also amazing directing of visuals in terms of angles, especially in the cutscenes which used amazing camera angles and movement including things ahead of its time such as cameras going through walls and windows which became a trend years later.
Tons of cool moves during combat, and summons which were a huge novelty but are still cool to see today.
Lots of creativity in combat and choices in dialogue which were actually interesting and had ambiguous results.
A sense of adventure as you never knew what was coming next or where you would go.
A good balance between exploration and being directed to the next goal as you weren't being comoletely corridor'ed, but also weren't overwhelmed.
Interesting item and spell effects as well as statuses to experiment with.
Tons of unique side characters and memorable designs or moments, etc... Can go on forever about this game.

[Anonymous No.8329563]

>>8323278
Read this and take it to heart, retard OP.

[Anonymous No.8329569]

>>8323278
Fuck, I meant this.
>>8323321

[Anonymous No.8329617]

Disagree. RPGs live or die on the narrative. A story about an eco terrorist former special forces soldier, who gets mk ultra'd into giving the antagonist the key to destroying the world. I was always amazed that Cecil in ff4 was willing to commit a war crime on the summoner village and it sucks that they retconned it into faggotry.
Ff7 doesn't pussy out , cloud gives zero fucks about 9/11 ING shinra, and thousands of innocents die.

The only bad thing about ff7 is the slanty eyes decided to turn cloud into a turbo jap fag emo bitch, the original cloud by the end of 7 is a really optimistic kind hearted person who has overcome his demons. Japs deserve another Hiroshima for the faggotry they turned cloud into.

[Anonymous No.8329660]

>>8329617
schizo take

[Anonymous No.8329731]

One thing I think FFVII has over other JRPGs on the PSX is the lightning fast pace of the battles.

[Anonymous No.8329925]

>>8329660
He's got a point, though. One thing I really appreciate about FF7 is that it doesn't pussyfoot around the moral ambiguity and extremism of the protagonists' actions in the beginning of the game, and it's something that the members of AVALANCHE are made to contend with later on. The world, as a whole, feels appropriately gritty for the type of story that the game is trying to tell, which is no easy feat.

A lot of games nowadays definitely try pretty hard to soften the edges of their "morally grey" protagonists, which is on full display in the FF7 Remake itself.

>>8329731
I think the quick pace has a lot to do with how easy the game is, which I would mark as one of its flaws. You've got one of the coolest battle systems in the franchise, but you never really need to use it unless you deliberately stay under-leveled because you can just sort of mash through most encounters. But FF7 has awesome pacing in-general, like as far as the story goes. There's almost never a dull moment, with even the lulls in the action being used for important characterization/foreshadowing.

[Anonymous No.8329962]

>>8329925
>I think the quick pace has a lot to do with how easy the game is
No, the FF7 battle system is really optimized for speed compared to other Final Fantasy games. I remember years ago taking notes on the FF4 and FF9 battle systems, just to show how fucking slow the FF9 battles are. I happened to look at FF7 at the same time for kicks, assuming it would be closer to FF9 than FF4. But I was surprised to find that it's not. Apart from slower transitions and a handful of animations (mostly summoned monsters), FF7 battles are really snappy. I didn't do a thorough analysis but I think FF7 might be the fastest in the series for some respects.

I'm not saying FF7 isn't easy, but that's not the main reason why it's battles feel fast-paced. At least, not compared to other Final Fantasy games which are all similarly easy.

[Anonymous No.8331132]

>>8323278
I unironically enjoy Final Fantasy VII.

>>8329617
Based schizo.
FUCK TETSUYA NOMURA
FUCK EMOS
and
FUCK JANNIES

[Anonymous No.8331212]

>>8329447
You seem really defensive about it, but it honestly never hit that hard for me. The environments didn't feel too interesting when most of the game looks like any other 90s Final Fantasy but just more modern. The parts that have to do with Shinra and Midgar, sure, but that flavor didn't hit me as hard on replaying the game, either. Steampunk mixed with modern aspects and high fantasy, okay. The characters were fine, but the romance stuff felt real forced and didn't do much at all for me. Sephiroth is fine, but not my favorite antagonist like he is for so many people. Memorable enemies as a plus is silly since most FFs have some fun ones, and it doesn't near how Dragon Quest's designs alone hit so hard.
I don't think many people gave a shit about minigames, did they? They were definitely something I don't look to fondly for the PSX side of things, at the very least. The use their imagination thing almost has me regret replying since it makes me think this has to be either copypasta or bait, but it's long enough that I want to say I'm safe.
It was a fine game that some people thought was amazing, and it was boosted even further because of the perfect timing of anime and Japan in general getting popular, and the internet boom pushing it even higher. Stop feeling bad that other people disagree with something you love. I like Tactics 10 times more than I like 7, but I'm not gonna be upset if you thought it was shit. Do what you gotta do, anon.

[Anonymous No.8331543]

>>8323321
This. OP is once again a faggot.

[Anonymous No.8331810]

>>8329393
It's a perfectly fair comparison. If you want to say "FFVII looks good for a video game of its time," I might not disagree. If you want to say "FFVII's original character models still look great today" then I think you're either blinded by nostalgia or out of your mind. They're not very evocative by modern standards, which is a damning flaw for an emotional story.

I was thinking the msx Snatcher, which was 1998. Its sprites and CGs were more evocative.

I don't disagree with a single thing you wrote on the models there. But I also think they look silly and cartoony, which detracts from the seriousness of the narrative, and that they don't emote as strongly as they could if they'd been done with modern technology.

>>8329447
Gee, I sure was railroaded into PDS, a game that sold about 10,000 copies on a system nobody bought.

I've played dozens of rpgs that could boast unique characters, stories, environments, music, NPCs, etc. That's the minimum bar to be considered "good" (and I think FFVII IS good, just that its fans are rarely honest about its shortcomings). "The character models are bad so you can imagine better ones" is a fourth dimensional cope.

[Anonymous No.8332621]

>>8331810
>FFVII looks good for a video game of its time
That's not quite what I mean. I do mean: it looks good. It looks good given the artistic and style choices made given the limitations it faced. This does not have the same negative qualifier as "for its time." The FFVII graphics are good in a timeless way, even if they aren't modern by some arbitrary metric. Looking at Panzer Dragoon Saga, I can see all sorts of problems. That's a game that "looks OK for its time."
- Rarely more than two or three sprites/models on the screen at a time, outside of combat. FFVII locations are alive with many characters who can all move and act simultaneously as the scene demands.
- Pixelation obscures details (eg eyes) you expect to see. This is rare in FFVII.
- FMV scenes make heavy use of shadows and weird camera angles to obscure faces that would otherwise land squarely in the uncanny valley with terrible animation. FFVII doesn't waste your time trying, focuses on using FMVs as accents for maximum dramatic impact.
- 3D environments are OK for a console game of the time, but nothing special for 1998. FFVII's pre-rendered environments, on the other hand, looked great now as then (and enable the mostly-seamless shifting between FMV and gameplay).
> But I also think they look silly and cartoony, which detracts from the seriousness of the narrative
Yes, Final Fantasy was a silly and cartoony franchise. FFVII was already a huge step in the serious direction compared to the previous game.
>I was thinking the msx Snatcher, which was 1998. Its sprites and CGs were more evocative.
Fair enough. Still, it's a visual novel, 90% of what it does is present still images and text. It's a ridiculous comparison.

[Anonymous No.8332629]

>>8329447
FFX and even 8 do all of these much, much better.
even Lulu mogs Tifa

[Anonymous No.8332632]

I still really like the story but man it really isn't a very interesting RPG, especially when you compare it to something like Persona 3/4/5.

It's kinda fun getting Beta early on and steamrolling everything I guess.

[Anonymous No.8332701]

>>8323278
Don't blame people for not branching out to play other RPG's on the system. Other non-square RPG's just didn't get a wide enough release, and the system just had too many great games already to drown them out. I burnt my own games for the PS1 so I got to sample a ton of games and yeah, FF7 is definitely top 5 for the system.

[Anonymous No.8332726]

>>8332632
>Hot topic JoJo's
>Interesting RPG
LMFAO

[Anonymous No.8332787]

FF7 fans be like “this is my waifu, isn’t she beautiful” and then show you this

[Anonymous No.8332853]

>>8328594
Are you serious? You think FF7 should have used fullscreen anime portraits or something? Bafflingly stupid.

[Anonymous No.8332861]

>>8331810
>They're not very evocative by modern standards
If you can't enjoy a classic game released 25 years ago on its own terms, that's really on you.

[Anonymous No.8332864]

>>8332787
That isn't from FF7...

[Anonymous No.8332896]

>>8331810
>you're either blinded by nostalgia
Just to note, I have very little nostalgia for FFVII. I played it in college, followed by FF Tactics then Xenogears, which was the last JRPG I played before moving on to other genres and then out of videogames entirely for a decade and a half. I had played every Square JRPG released in North America before FFVII, so I'm very familiar with the series as it existed at the time. I also played a reasonable variety of games during the late 90s (mostly not JRPGs), and enjoy looking back at the era critically. That's also how I can quickly recognize the corners a game like PDS would have to cut, the tradeoffs it would have to make to feel like a "modern" game, and they are things that matter a lot.

FFVII was a huge and successful game for more than just marketing. It was an aesthetically impressive game in every respect, if you can get past the style of the character models (which, overwhelmingly, most people are able to do)

[Anonymous No.8332903]

>>8332632
>>8332726
I think he means gameplay-wise. If you care a lot about balance, you'll probably prefer Persona 3/4/5 over the FF series in general. Personally balance isn't all that important to me. I like how FF games give you tons of options to play around with even if a lot of abilities are broken. It would be nice though if there were more powerful enemies/bosses around though so you would have more of a reason to use the powerful materia combinations you can come up with. The original release in Japan didn't even have Ruby/Emerald. At least hacks exist for that.

[Anonymous No.8332983]

>>8323321
My sides

[Anonymous No.8332995]

>>8323278
>shallow
FF7 has 10x more content than the typical PS1 era RPG, anon.

[Anonymous No.8333412]

>>8329447
>>8331212
To be honest, you both have points to make.

Final Fantasy VII is good for what it is, and certainly holds up enough to be worth re-playing today. (I'd certainly take it over XV or the FFVII Remake any day.)

But it is over-rated? Sure, it is. It has strokes of genius but a lot of parts feel half-baked and rushed, especially given that the English translation is shoddy in numerous ways. A video series on Youtube called "Found in Translation" broke down how many things were distorted and dropped from the Japanese script, and there's a lot of typos and grammatical errors besides. (the only PC patch I'm aware of that addresses this up-ends the script, and the creator self-admittedly added his own preferences while also not legitimately making a new script translated from the original.)

In addition, the entire game is brain-dead easy. It's even admitted in a roundabout way when you say "tons of ways to impose challenges on yourself." Then again, this is true for most Final Fantasy games and most JRPGs, period. As effective as the mechanics are, people praise this game the way they do more because it was a "right time, right place" thing, than the game truly being grand on its own devices. And the minigames really weren't good, the motorcycle and snowboarding ones are utterly simplistic, as is Chocobo Racing, the rest of the minigames at Gold Saucer are a joke, and Fort Condor, while likely the best, is nothing amazing either.

That said, it still stands out in many respects, like the aforementioned points about the presentation, pre-rendered backgrounds, soundtrack, world-building, art direction, and elements of the story. (...which is still quite flawed, but memorable. Perhaps the fact it had a shoddy translation but still was so affecting on so many people could be said to be a further testament to it, but I won't go on for fear of sounding too much like you as you go out of your way to turn the weaker aspects of the game into high-points.)

[Anonymous No.8333663]

>>8332864
I am aware, autismo

[Anonymous No.8333743]

>>8333412
I'm just a bit sour since it definitely created a rift at the time where "but look at the graaaphics" and all that got used to shut down any and all talks about favorites.
The game is fine. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter. Groups nowadays can accept for the most part that each Final Fantasy is real fucking different from each other, and each appeals to different people. I would get so much anger even back in 2008 for saying I preferred III or V over it, and now people are more open to it. My favorite FF is still XI by far, and if theirs is VII, that's fine too. Not a fan of people like that other anon trying to shut down any critique over it as if their opinion is the only one.

[Anonymous No.8333861]

>>8332621
Parts of it do look good -many of the backgrounds are still compelling, the CGI is still nice, etc. But the resolution amd character models are poor by modern standards. "Looks good given the limitations it faced" is exactly another way of saying "looked good for its time." I really don't get why it's so hard to admit that facets of the game have not aged well.

I fully acknowledge PDS looks awful in places - the resolution is bad, cities feel simplistic and dead, many areas just copy paste the same textures over and over again, basic character models are shocking by modern standards, etc. That said, many of the handdrawn lighting effects look good even by modern standards, the art design is compelling in many places, and the CGI still looks nice. I can highlight things that look good while still admitting its shortcomings.

The tone of FFVII comes down to taste, I'm not going to say you're wrong for liking it. I will say that the overt silliness infused through the whole thing made it hard for me to take the serious parts seriously.

The VN point was literally to say "these characters look emotionally compelling, these do not." Modern games can have characters that can emote as well as VN characters - some even just include VN interfaces. FFVII's character models are emotionally unevocative in a way those games are not. That's the extent of my point.

>>8332896
That's fair, and I disagree with nothing you've said.

[Anonymous No.8333876]

>>8333663
So stop being shitty

[Anonymous No.8333892]

>>8327552

Modern games are like movies, but FF7 is like a stageplay, where wild shifts in tone are common and expected by the audience.

[Anonymous No.8333898]

>>8332896
>if you can get past the style of the character models (which, overwhelmingly, most people are able to do)
This is a point that some people here just can't seem to grasp. FF7's overworld model detail just doesn't matter. The camera viewpoints frequently put us far away from the characters. Through the dialog and plot, the characters could have been blobs of color and you would still form some degree of attachment to them. The in-battle models and menu portraits look fantastic.

You would need to be extremely closedminded to think less of FF7 for this reason.

[Anonymous No.8333910]

>>8333892
More like FF7 is like a 30-hour movie, which should be expected to change tone. Meanwhile, PDS is significantly shorter and more narrow in scope than FF7. It doesn't even have room for character development, let alone shifts in tone.

I like PDS, it's a very good game, but >>8327552 just doesn't understand JRPGs or what makes them successful.

[Anonymous No.8333920]

>>8332903
I mean, it's a game for 17yos at the high end, probably the average player was 12yo.

I died at bosses in FF7, I had to heal and use items to get through dungeons. I was the correct age group.

[Anonymous No.8333964]

>>8333910
Not them, but I feel that's a bit haughty. JRPGs are so varied that even then, you had people liking them more for the mechanics than the movie-like quality some had. It's like how DQVII vs FF7 is such a weird comparison to do, since they tug at two different things.

[Anonymous No.8333989]

>>8333861
>"Looks good given the limitations it faced" is exactly another way of saying "looked good for its time." I really don't get why it's so hard to admit that facets of the game have not aged well.
No, because working within limitations common for any aesthetic, artistic endeavor. When constraints are not imposed by reality, artists will choose their own constraints. This is easiest seen in videogames with fads like cel shading, but is common across many different art forms like painting and sculpture.

Because videogame technology advanced so insanely rapidly from roughly 1970 to the 2000s, "for its time" carries instant negative baggage. Many games were pushing technology in many different ways, and most of them fail to achieve timeless aesthetics.

[Anonymous No.8333997]

>>8333920
Same. I think of it and FFVI as really easy now, but there were parts that got me as a kid. I remember multiple bosses in FFVI giving me trouble back in the day.

I didn't mean to imply it's a bad thing, FFVII is really fun and one of my favorite games. The game being easy as an adult doesn't bother me much either, sometimes I'm in the mood for easier games. I just meant that if you're somebody who wants a more difficult RPG with no super powerful abilities that let you steamroll things, the Final Fantasy series might not be your cup of tea. Stuff like Enemy Skill (granted you might miss a lot of the abilities without a guide, but powerful stuff like Matra Magic is easy to find by accident.

[Anonymous No.8334004]

>>8333997
Though to be honest, most RPGs are geared towards that group >>8333920. Like Panzer Dragoon Saga is being discussed in the thread, and that's easier than FFVII I'd say. I can't think of a single battle that gave me trouble, though it has a unique and interesting battle system.

[Anonymous No.8334274]

>>8333876
>S-stop making fun of me
Jesus man

[Anonymous No.8334289]

Tifa looks way cuter than your image though

[Anonymous No.8334293]

>>8334289
>>8332787

[Anonymous No.8334527]

>>8323317
Underrated post

[Anonymous No.8334536]

>>8329617
Based hottake

[Anonymous No.8334592]

>>8333861
>The VN point was literally to say "these characters look emotionally compelling, these do not."
The more I look at that 1988 VN, though, the less I think you even have a point there. The overwhelming majority of scenes depict characters with one stock expression. FF7's animated sprites are superior in most respects (and you still have rendered portraits to see the character's "defining expression"). A handful of faces depict a few different emotions, that's it.
> Modern games can have characters that can emote as well as VN characters - some even just include VN interfaces. FFVII's character models are emotionally unevocative in a way those games are not.
Sure but is all that extra emoting really necessary? Does it add to the game? I don't watch a lot of anime or TV and don't play videogames to do the same. Does showing Wedge nearly in tears because Cloud says he's not interested in their names really add anything to the game? That kind of thing sucks up a LOT of screen time. It takes an hour to blow up the reactor in FF7 remake, vs 15-20 minutes in the original game. The extra time isn't entirely bloat, there are some good moments, but there's a lot of dragging, too. Jesse's my favorite FF7 girl but most of those scenes with her awkward flirting are totally unnecessary. In most cases Cloud's expressions actually make it worse for me, I was much happier just using my imagination.

[Anonymous No.8334612]

>>8334004
PDS is more difficult than FF7 imo, but it isn’t apples to apples. You need to figure out how to damage enemies in PDS, so whether you survive is more about how quickly you were able to do that, combined with some RNG. This also applies to bosses, to the extent that you might as well treat most first-time encounters with them as a practice run.

[Anonymous No.8335036]

>>8333910
PDS has its protagonist go from furiously chasing after a guy for revenge, to ultimately admitting that said man was justified in what he did. That's development - not great development, but development. If you want to highlight its dozens of flaws, at least pick ones it's guilty of.

>>8333989
This is incoherent. FFVII was made on hardware that is hopelessly weak by modern standards. Even if they made the game with the same broad artsyle now, it could be executed far better with a higher budget and resolution. It is insane to claim that FFVII looks timeless.

>>8334592
That Wedge moment suffers more from being silly than from character models. It's not an emotionally compelling moment anyway, and if they lingered on it in the remake, that was a mistake. By contrast, I struggle to think that moments that were emotionally compelling in the original would be hampered by better models.

I think this thread really captures my biggest issue with FFVII, which is its overinflated reputation. FFX is my favourite game in the series, but it's not hard for me to acknowledge that many people find Tidus annoying, that several characters are underutilized, and/or have stupid unnecessary arcs that go nowhere, that everything from the end of Zanarkand to meeting the final boss is a narrative clusterfuck, that it's easy to see why the combat would disappoint people used to the active system, that much of the voice acting has aged badly, etc.

Meanwhile, getting FFVII fans to even concede that the artstyle is constrained by the game's resolution and polygon count is like pulling teeth.

[Anonymous No.8335072]

>>8335036
>It is insane to claim that FFVII looks timeless.
I disagree. It looked good then, it still looks good now. Human eyes didn't change. If somebody came out with a game in that style now and executed it as well as FFVII, it would end up looking great too.

There's less possibilities for what you can create with technical constraints, but you can make a great looking game. Games with graphics based on old limitations are still being made, and can still look appealing (and not just because of nostalgia).
>it could be executed far better with a higher budget and resolution
I don't think that's guaranteed. FFVII was created with the limitations in mind and ended up looking great. If you remove those limitations, you'd have to rethink everything to make it work properly.

Consider Mario 3 on NES being recreated as All-Stars. It looks nice, but it's not universally accepted as better. Small details that were made because of the NES's limitations added character to the graphics that was lost in the translation. In contrast, something like Super Mario World was made with different limitations in mind from the start. If FFVII was created with different constraints from the start, it would've been a very different looking game.

[Anonymous No.8335076]

>>8335072
Basically, the artstyle is indeed constrained by technical limitations, but those constraints don't mean the game is ugly. The game was designed to look good with those constraints in mind.

[Anonymous No.8335094]

>>8335076
To each their own, then. I think the models look crude and unevocative, and that upping their poly count (or even switching art styles) would only help the game hit what it's going for.

Out of curiosity, is anyone willing to concede that the resolution is absolutely something that could be theoretically improved about the game?

[Anonymous No.8335097]

>>8335036
>FFX is my favourite game in the series
lol...

[Anonymous No.8335127]

>>8332621
I think PDS looks nice too though. All the Panzer Dragoon games have a cool and unique style, the art is great.

[Anonymous No.8335573]

>>8335127
Agreed. That said, it's definitely a game let down by its hardware, and which is showing its age. The developers said in an interview that the only area the console could compete on was the size of its environments, and I feel they took full advantage. PDS is geared up to make you feel awe, with huge environments, huge monsters, and most of the gameworld feeling massively ancient, with the kind of technology that is indistuinguishable from the divine. It feels pseudo-religious in places, something I don't think I've gotten from any other game.

That said, every criticism in this thread applies - resolution is horrible, environments are often repetitive, etc.

I think it's actually interesting to compare it to FFVII because the two games are similar in many ways - both start as a revenge plot, and center on the intersection of environment and technology. Both comment on nuclear power; FFVII with its mako reactors, and PDS with a whole city effectively getting nuked. Both take a dim view of it.

Their biggest point of divergence outside of gameplay is tone. FFVII features a huge cast who are often fun and funny. In PDS, you are often alone, and the mood is sombre and reflective.

I prefer PDS, but definitely see why it's not for everyone. The plot is absolute jank in places, Azel is a dreadful character (with a top notch design), and the gameplay, while unique, is unpolished, simple, too easy, and too repetitive.

[Anonymous No.8335574]

I actually like the fact that the overworld models look like Lego people.

[Anonymous No.8335616]

>>8335036
>That Wedge moment suffers more from being silly than from character models. It's not an emotionally compelling moment anyway, and if they lingered on it in the remake, that was a mistake.
Those mistakes are always going to happen. The hypothetical game that is FFVII but with "more evocative models" doesn't exist. The moment you make the models more expressive, you change player expectations. Development priorities change. Instead of having a clear vision based on enhancing a game formula, you go 100% into being a film director. Depicting FF7's exact dialog and blocking on FF7R's engine would have been weird. So then it becomes a challenge: how do you perfectly execute a scene to be fast-paced but still functional? Odds are, they're going to fail. And that's before we even talk about the uncanny valley from which videogames have STILL not fully emerged when it comes to depicting facial expressions.
>By contrast, I struggle to think that moments that were emotionally compelling in the original would be hampered by better models.
Yes, it's hard to imagine until you actually see a real attempt and see what extraneous distractions and other flaws have to be excused and ignored.
>It is insane to claim that FFVII looks timeless.
There is a timeless quality that goes beyond the hardware limitations, for sure. Going "cartoony" or at least some kind of distinct and not-realistic style, helps a great deal here. Legend of Zelda for NES has lots of memorable and appealing graphics and even if you hate playing as a little childlike Elf, the game is full of iconic designs that influenced the franchise for years. I'm not saying FF7 is timeless in absolutely every way possible, but it's character models are fine.

[Anonymous No.8335646]

>>8335094
>Out of curiosity, is anyone willing to concede that the resolution is absolutely something that could be theoretically improved about the game?
There is a lot that could theoretically improve but it's not that important. Certainly not remotely as important as you think it is. Final Fantasy's VIII and IX are an interesting example, as a contrast. Neither of those games used FF7's blocky models, and in both games the models were hampered by the low resolution. The models themselves (for the most part) look much better when rendered in HD on modern hardware-- although this can lead to other weird effects like the high-res models not quite meshing with backgrounds properly and other incidental details.

With FF7, you'll get some improvement from a higher resolution, but it's not nearly as drastic as with FF8 and 9 (and 10 and 12, for that matter). The blocky models don't need to be much higher resolution to do their job, just like the Wizrobes in Zelda 1 don't need more colors to do their job.

Mods for FF7 that add larger character models have been around for years (ever since the original PC version published by Eidos). Most people don't really care that much, because they don't make a big deal.
Here are some clips of FF7 in HD with lifelike character models:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GStOzParIF4

Looks pretty cool. Some of the animations looks weird on lifelike characters, like when they're waiting to jump off the train. Just goes to show how much you have to rethink and redo from scratch when you change something so fundamental.

>only help the game hit what it's going for.
Yeah I'm not sure you really get what the game was going for. There's more to the game than seeing the emotions on Cloud's face when Aeris dies. And that's assuming that "more evocative" models don't fuck up the acting and kill the moment anyway with nasuea-inducing facial expressions, which is a big assumption.

[Anonymous No.8335836]

>>8333743
Yeah, and even predictably made a whole point of "zoomers" being the problem, as if older gamers not despite but because they're older can't have a preference for other RPGs or games in the series. It's also funny he says they weren't "railroaded" into it, when it's the most popular game in the franchise and doubtlessly many a zoomer has gone back to play it, especially now that it's on PC and ported to mobile, PS4, and Nintendo Switch.

I agree with what you said, the game is well-made and fine, but do we need this grandstanding elitism that overhypes it to hell and back again where people who prefer other games in the series or genre are construed as objectively wrong? Obviously not. Taking everything into account and going only by original games, I rank the series IX > VII > VIII > VI > V > IV > III > I > II honestly, but I perfectly understand preferring earlier games like V over later ones like VIII.

Curious why Final Fantasy XI was your favorite? I'm debating whether to bother giving it my time. If I do, I'll either play it on my PS2 or try the HD port for PS4 if I can get access to a PS4 or PS5.

[Anonymous No.8336189]

>>8333743
>My favorite FF is still XI by far,
This game is more like Everquest than any Final Fantasy game that came before it.
>Groups nowadays can accept for the most part that each Final Fantasy is real fucking different from each other
Every single Final Fantasy game from 1-9 follows a strict formula.

1. Game World: Overworld, towns, dungeons, and abstract combat arena.
Main Character(s): A party of adventurers
2. Gameplay: Exploration and turn-based combat (ATB is turn-based for all intents and purposes), using an evolving selection of standard fantasy RPG archetypes.
3. Game Structure: Incrementally expanding access to the world based on advancing a linear storyline.
4. Nobuo Uematsu

(World details)
- Towns: safe places to get supplies and information, or advance the plot.
- Overworld: Wilderness areas viewed as a map with compressed distances, where you can engage in low(er)-pressure combat while being able to save and rest any time you want, and easily return to town. Functions as both a buffer zone between dungeons and towns, and as a way to achieve a world-scale scope.
- Dungeons: Dangerous areas filled with combat, (simple) mazes and puzzles, typically with a boss at the end. Completing dungeons typically advances the plot and unlocks more of the overworld and more towns

Despite all the minor differences in the details, all classic Final Fantasy games adhere to this formula. FF10 is the first game in the series to break the formula by doing away with the overworld, which, consequently, also changes the game structure from "incrementally expanding" to a straight linear progression. FF11 Doesn't even come close to the formula. You don't control a party of characters. You don't have turn-based combat in an abstract arena. You don't have a map-view style overworld. You don't unlock the world by progressing through a linear storyline.

[Anonymous No.8336206]

>>8323321
OP gets fucked

[Anonymous No.8336579]

>>8335616
You say this as if it's a given, but it isn't. It's perfectly possible in theory to just have an FFVII with up res'd models and nothing more. To be clear, this is what you are defending - that Cloud's stick-like elbows and tumorous forearms are good, actually, and absolutely in no way could those be improved by modern hardware. Or look at Sephiroth's face in the image further up the thread. What emotion is his face supposed to convey there? Not the emotion you imagine him conveying, but the one that is actually there.

I'm not even saying hyper-realistic, lifelike models are necessarily better. I don't think the remake looks terribly good. I am saying, how can anyone honestly look at these forearms and say "yes, that is timeless and close to perfect, and it is disingenuous pedantry to suggest otherwise."

I'm not defending the remake, or it's sloppy direction.

The cartoony style helps things age better - but again. Look at the forearms. That's not timeless.

Pixel art ages well because the artstyle is still attractive, and was being executed as well as it could be before it went out of fashion. Cloud's stick arms and tumour forearms do not remain attractive, and come across less as an art style than a hardware limitation.

>>8335646
What WAS the game going for, and do you think it would have benefited from Sephiroth having a mouth in the image further up this thread?

[Anonymous No.8336723]

>>8335836
Damn, I meant to write XII. I read XI as "XII" since subconsiously I don't even think of XI as a Final Fantasy game. They should've not numbered it as mainline. It's simply an MMO.

[Anonymous No.8337420]

>>8336579
>What WAS the game going for
Final Fantasy formula JRPG but bigger and better.
Modern Final Fantasy games do not follow the classic FF formula.
You know what franchise does? Bravely Default. BD has super-deformed 3D models. Coincidence?
>>8336579
>I am saying, how can anyone honestly look at these forearms and say "yes, that is timeless and close to perfect, and it is disingenuous pedantry to suggest otherwise."
My attention isn't on his fucking forearms, that's the point. I look at that image and immediately see Cloud Strife, protagonist of Final Fantasy VII. I see his spiky yellow hair, his vivid purple uniform, I see the direction he is facing, I see that he is standing still, I even see his eyes and an expression on his face. You could take a silhouette of Cloud from that image and he'd be just as recognizable.

Those are all marks of excellent design. And of course, the game is not a visual novel full of stills. When Cloud moves, his animation is totally natural and looks exactly like I'd want it to look as I run around exploring world.

>I'm not defending the remake, or it's sloppy direction.
I brought up the remake to emphasize a point about what happens to a game when you increase the fidelity of the models. I could have used any number of examples (and indeed brought up FF8, FF9, and a modded FF7 as well). I just picked FF7 Remake because it's such a rare and terrific opportunity to see the exact same scenes depicted in two totally different styles. I don't give a shit. Pick any modern RPG. There will be television-tier cutscenes with 3D models barely edging out Paw Patrol for the quality of the animated acting. Or there won't be, because it's a gameplay-first approach like Dark Souls where the character models do not waste time emoting in lengthy cutscenes.

[Anonymous No.8337561]

>>8326296
Threads of Fate is kino and I need any game recs like it. Mint is based

[Anonymous No.8338154]

>>8337420
And I think that's the difference between us. You see what the developers intended. I see what's actually there - an awkward, spiky, malformed clay doll. Cloud's hair is recognisable, sure - but his missing nose and cubic hands are not, which makes me wonder why they're in this model, and whether they are also hallmarks of excellent design.

I haven't played the remake, so I can't comment too hard on it. I can just point you to FFX. While the ps2 models were far from perfect, they were good enough to make emotions compelling and unambiguous when they came through. A few dreadful examples aside, the developers knew which scenes were emotionally resonant, and those scenes landed. The character models (and voice acting) definitely helped with that. Did the FFVII remake pull those things off? From what I've heard, no. Can I imagine a more competent director making a better remake that actually did land properly, and better than the original? Easily.

To be honest, too: if the standard FFVII models are as emotionally compelling as you claim, then why were their equivalents not used for the CGI cutscenes? Why is it that when the developers came to animating the game's biggest moments, they abandoned the basic models as soon as the technology allowed them to do it?

[Anonymous No.8338420]

>>8338154
>And I think that's the difference between us.
The difference between us is that you are hung up on hyper-analyzing still images along one specific, arbitrary metric.
>if the standard FFVII models are as emotionally compelling as you claim,
I claim their "emotionally compellingness" is sufficient for the game. It's not enough to say I'm "seeing what the developers intended.' I'm seeing what's actually there, in the sense that it is a GAME, not a tech demo of emotionally compelling character models. That was Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within.
>I can just point you to FFX.
Yeah, that's a game that I never finished specifically because I get bored to death "playing" it, where by playing I mean watching TV cutscenes with occasional breaks for a tiny bit of gameplay that takes railroading to a whole new level for the series.

[Anonymous No.8338449]

>>8338420
Brah, the difference is that you can't admit to the most minor, blatant flaw in the game (and I see you sidestepped my point on the CGI, which I think was a slam dunk).

You claim to be seeing what's actually there, but like... you keep refusing to acknowledge that Cloud lacks a nose, or that his hands are cubes, or that his forearms look like Popeye's.

And see, I can totally admit that FFX is linear and cutscene heavy, and that those things make it a bad game for people who don't like them. I'll go further, and say that the decision to make the cutscenes unskippable was moronic, and makes getting wiped on some of the bosses massively painful.

It's a sign of maturity when you can admit that other people won't see your favourite media like you do, or even like it at all. It's a sign of maturity when you can admit that your favourite media isn't flawless, and might even be jank as hell in places.

...Which is why the heavy resistance of some FFVII fans to accepting even the lightest criticisms of the game as valid... kind of suggests that the game massively appeals to people who haven't properly matured and grown up? Like, it's a good game, brah, but come on. It's not perfect.

[Anonymous No.8338483]

>>8338449
Popeye is an iconic character.

[Anonymous No.8338503]

>>8338449
Your criticism is bad, that's all. I can admit that the models in some of the FMVs in FF7 don't look great. But you are failing on a very basic level of criticism in being unable to establish a reasonably appropriate objective standard.

[Anonymous No.8338513]

>>8338449
>It's a sign of maturity when you can admit that other people won't see your favourite media like you do
Then you should accept his view of the game is different than yours. Nobody is saying Cloud has a nose there, but not having a nose isn't an objective flaw.

[Anonymous No.8338516]

>>8338513
It can even be an advantage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3L6GYBYmCo (3:40)

[Anonymous No.8338537]

>>8338503
I was hyperfocusing on one point to see if you could acknowledge the game might have flaws; even if only viewed from certain perspectives. If you've admitted that the criticism has merit, then calling it bad just seems like a salty cope.

What do you mean "objective standard"? You can't criticise anything unless you say "I liked this thing for these reasons," which can never BE objective. The alternatives are just factually describing the game, or appealing to a consensus opinion as some kind of objective standard (it isn't), in which case you can just point to metacritic scores as the measures of all that is good.

I didn't like FFVII as much as some other games. I explained why, accurately and succinctly. What more could you possibly want? What would a "good criticism" possibly comprise?

>>8338513
I never said it was. I said that the models were not emotionally compelling -to me-, and bought up the nose as one reason for that. If you legitimately aren't affected by the models being simplistic, then fine. I already said that I can accept that people don't like FFX's linearity, even if it isn't an issue for me. The difference is, I can immediately accept that the game IS linear, without having to be dragged towards admitting what's pretty much an objective fact. If you like Cloud's model, that's fine, but don't act like his hands aren't cubes, because they are.

[Anonymous No.8338539]

>>8338449
>Which is why the heavy resistance of some FFVII fans to accepting even the lightest criticisms of the game as valid
I don't think anybody is denying that the graphics won't appeal to everybody, they're just saying the graphics appeal to them. I like how FFVII looks. It's perfectly valid for you not to like it, but not everybody sees it the same way.

As far as accepting the "lightest criticisms," I don't think that's the case. Just like you can admit FFX is linear and cutscene heavy, I can admit things like FFVII being easy and full of broken abilities without many enemies difficult enough to make them worthwhile. It doesn't bother me too much, but it's a valid complaint and might be a big deal if you're someone looking for a more difficult RPG. FFX actually did something really cool by giving you the monster arena and tons of powerful bosses to fight rather than a couple superbosses.

[Anonymous No.8338541]

>>8338539
And that's totally fine, I respect your opinion, and I don't think there's any daylight between us.

[Anonymous No.8338547]

>>8338541
Yeah I think we basically agree on things.

On a side note, your posts kinda make me want to play FFX again. Maybe I'll try the International version finally, stuff like the expert sphere grid seems cool.

[Anonymous No.8338702]

>>8338537
>I said that the models were not emotionally compelling -to me-
You said they were "AWFUL".
> If you legitimately aren't affected by the models being simplistic, then fine
I'm also trying to explain why.
I like the overall aesthetic effect.
I like using my imagination.
I like reading text (reasonable amounts, anyway) with sprite actors depicting a scene that I can flesh out in my mind (if I want).
I like the pace that often comes with a story presented that way.
I think this formula is great to facilitate balanced enjoyment of artwork and aesthetics, the corny-at-times adolescent story, and the simple-but-addictive exploration and combat gameplay.
Every Final Fantasy game before FF7 was like this. In fact I'd say most every JRPG was played this way before 5th gen, although some (like Phantasy Star) used VN-style still images for cutscenes instead of sprite actors. The sprites in FF5, FF6, and Chrono are more expressive than other 4th gen JRPGs.

My argument is that improving the expressiveness of sprite actors much beyond what you see in 5th gen Final Fantasy games, has diminishing returns at best and is actively harmful at worst, for this distinct JRPG subgenre. I think there are some instances where improved resolution and polycount could have helped, making some sprites easier to read, but these improvements would be subtle and mostly on generic NPCs and side characters, not any of the main characters like Cloud or Tifa.


>>8338537
>I was hyperfocusing on one point to see if you could acknowledge the game might have flaws
You're begging the question
>even if only viewed from certain perspectives
You're the one showing an image of Cloud and being shocked that not everyone agrees that it looks bad.

[Anonymous No.8338730]

>>8326357
Because it was first. That's literally why.

[Anonymous No.8338747]

>>8331810
Models in an RPG not being evocative isn't a 'damning flaw'. The problem with the discourse is that one side, either the 'flaw' side or the 'this is the best ever' aide always have to try and force their personal criticism, praise or impression aa a fact. A game with no voice acting and text is based more on the player using their imagination. There is nothing left to 'evoke' if the text, music, pacing, etc... does its job, you don't need it spelled out with anything further. If you personally prefer it, sure, no problem with that, but it's not a flaw if so many people reacted to the story / events anyway even with the chibi models.

[Anonymous No.8339402]

>>8323278
>Are people liking a hecking popular game?
You're a fucking retard. People ALWAYS talk about PS1 JRPGs. It's known as the golden age of them, and especially the golden age of Square. I hate when motherfuckers on the internet pull some shit out of their ass and state it so confidently all the time.

And most people call FFVII overrated too, dumbass.

[Anonymous No.8341396]

>>8339402
What's your favorite ps1 rpg?

[Anonymous No.8341552]

I think it’s either counterintuitive or outright impossible to try to sufficiently critique a game like FFVII without also taking the time of its release into consideration. I’ve made a point to play most of the “classic” PS1 RPG games and strongly believe that they all have a timeless charm about them, not unlike that of any given beloved children’s storybook. FFVII just happened to be the one that did it better than it had ever been done before. It does everything it can to immerse the player into its world— from the beautiful OST, the stunningly rendered and believable backgrounds, the cast of unique and lively characters; Christ, it even breaks up the story with shitty mini games once in a while to keep you from disengaging from its massive, complex universe. There was literally nothing like it— nothing even came fucking close. It was literally the most epic, fantastical adventure that the average gamer could have hoped for back then, and that’s what made it groundbreaking.

Sure, the game has its fair share of really bizarre flaws and, well, stupid, game-breaking mechanics. But it STILL manages to come together in a way that makes it pretty goddamn easy to overlook these things, and that’s why people love it.

The way I see it, you would have to actively go into the game wanting to find reasons to despise it in order for it to become an unenjoyable experience. No sane person who played the game back in the late 1990’s went into it this way, and neither should you. So fuck you, OP.

[Anonymous No.8341874]

>>8323278
The more RPGs I play, the more I realize the genre is really about wasting your time. There's so many things that aren't fun and simply serve to inflate game time. They were my fave genre as a kid, so it's not like I don't appreciate them. It is what it is.

[Anonymous No.8342083]

>>8329617
>that sudden change in tone in the second paragraph
NOMURA

HIRE
THIS
MAN

[Anonymous No.8342161]

>>8341874
Most games start feeling like wastes of time as you get older. RPGs just require a more conscious commitment.

[Anonymous No.8342178]

You know what... even for someone adores it after three playthroughs (pretty much done back-to-back), I do realise more and more why other don't find the same appeal, which is of course fine.

[Anonymous No.8344040]

>>8329617
this, og real cloud was the anime character we could cheer on at the end of the series, started as greedy asshole to someone who fights the good fight, nomura can choke on a dick