No Rest for the Living VS Master Levels

[Anonymous No.8306046]

Which is the best scenario, and how do they compare to things like DOOM2, Plutonia and TNT?

[Anonymous No.8306051]

NRFTL by far. The best Doom 2 expansion.
Overall Plutonia > NRFTL > TNT > Master Levels.

[Anonymous No.8306094]

>>8306046
>>8306051
NRFTL is styled as 8 level episode like Knee Deep in the Dead, but features monsters from 2 so it's the best blend. It's really one of the best Doom expansions, was released with little fanfare and is kind of what SIGIL should have been. SIGIL feels like pain in the ass kinda ugly later Hell levels.

Doom 2 starts strong, but it has way too many gimmicky levels that take me out of it and too many bland levels. A lot of it is there to show off how big they can make the levels and how many enemies they can put into it. Actually making it interseting is less of a concern.

TNT is a big improvement and has great early and tech base levels. But I don't like it as much later on. Plutonia is the better overall experience.

I like a few levels from MASTER levels but forget much of it.

[Anonymous No.8306115]

>>8306046
As the self proclaimed biggest Master Levels fanboy/apologist, I would say NRFTL is way more approachable casually. Master Levels needs to be modded for the best experience. Master Levels was a good idea on paper- a few thousand custom levels but with a selection of official quality. The problem is they were rushing a deadline, a couple maps could have used a bit more work, alot of maps were cut, there was no new songs or graphics made for it other than a skybox and PSX exclusive music. They originally wanted it to be a level-to-level megawad but with all the maps cut and not enough approved, it missed a Christmas release. The segmented pistol start maps feel disjointed, even annoying with half the music being one track. The sad thing is the level design is good, its more consistent than TNT. No Rest For The Living is simply fun, a Doom 1 style episode with Doom 2 content, Master Levels was partly made to spite some nobodies and had its reputation tarnished by the inclusion of Maximum Doom. On PSX, Master Levels is a much better experience with the music and episodic structure. Another good way of playing Master Levels is PS3 version, its a full episode and varies the music tracks, theres a mod on PC that lets you play it that way. Master Levels isn't bad, just riddled with flaws.

[Anonymous No.8306143]

>>8306115
OP here. I have the PS3 version. I just finally beat all of Doom, Doom 2 and Final Doom. The latter was extremely tough for me to finish on Ultra-violence.

I'm wondering how these compare on difficulty and how the levels are. I actually liked TNT the most of them all so far.

[Anonymous No.8306149]

>>8306143
Master Levels is kinda easy, tho pistol starts do increase the difficulty a little. Kinda around TNT's level of difficulty. Most maps are basic and are not very challenging, but that Elevator to Hell level is like a Plutonia Map, very tough

[Anonymous No.8306415]

>>8306046
No Rest For The Living is WAAAY better than Master Levels, I don't think it's even a contest. As for comparing to Final Doom, I'd say it's just about on par if you compare it to Final Doom as a whole; pretty damn good.

>>8306115
>Master Levels was a good idea on paper- a few thousand custom levels but with a selection of official quality
Do you mean Maximum Doom? Because that was like 3000ish random .wads scraped off of the web, while Master Levels were submissions.

>there was no new songs or graphics made for it other than a skybox and PSX exclusive music.
On the PSX, then. On PC, the Master Levels used all stock Doom 2 assets in their entirety.

>The sad thing is the level design is good
It's alright in places, but I don't think there's anything actually remarkable about it.

>its more consistent than TNT
No kidding it's consistent, a half dozen of the levels are extremely similar in premise and design, and it feels like half the levels lean on those same tan brick textures for everything. But maybe that's just my memory of the PSX version.

>Master Levels was partly made to spite some nobodies and had its reputation tarnished by the inclusion of Maximum Doom.
I never did play Maximum Doom, and didn't even know about it until way later, Master Levels was a pretty mediocre and dull experience for the most part, at least to me. It honestly kind of makes me wanna check out Kvernmo's old Cabal series in full, as there's a lot more of them than what got into Master Levels. They're a bit rough (Mephisto's Maosoleum can go to hell), but there's some ambition to them as well.

[Anonymous No.8306417]

>>8306415
>Master Levels was a pretty mediocre and dull experience for the most part, at least to me.

There's a lot of Commercial Doom and it's actually pretty easy to burn out on them if you try to play all of them. I do think that a few Master Levels are really interesting. Honestly, I would have liked to remove like half the levels from Doom 2, and replace them with Master Levels and other sources. Final Doom probably should have been a mix of the best levels from TNT and Plutonia for a single 32 mix.

[Anonymous No.8306419]

>>8306046
Essential Doom:

>Knee Deep in the Dead
>Thy Flesh Consumed
>No Rest for the Living
>TNT
>Plutonia

Skip worthy:
>Doom 2: Hell on Earth
>Master Levels for Doom 2
>Doom 64
>Lost Levels for Doom 64

[Anonymous No.8306420]

>>8306417
>Final Doom probably should have been a mix of the best levels from TNT and Plutonia for a single 32 mix.
No way, man! Plutonia and TNT have distinct styles, and they're much better off for it. TNT gets pretty scuffed towards the end, but I think it has enough good levels that it stands on its own (with Plutonia having mostly great levels going well together as a set).

I'm glad that the two of them are there in full and are separate campaigns, both are experimental in their own way, and it's like one and a half successful experiments in that sense.

[Anonymous No.8306427]

>>8306419
>Skipping anything but the Master Levels
Lunacy.

[Anonymous No.8306449]

>>8306427

The Shores of Hell drags and the Factory level might be my least favorite in Doom. Everything Doom 2 does is done better by others. Doom 64 is also kinda boring, as it's missing a lto of the very interesting monsters and the levels just aren't that interesting.

[Anonymous No.8307318]

Why all the Master Levels hate? It has some of the best doom levels ever.

>Titan Manor
>Trapped on Titan
>Black Tower
>The Express Elevator to Hell

All are unique, memorable, very hard and a lot of fun. It's why I like Doom. I love the big hard levels that are like a puzzle to figure out with tons of hard enemies and little ammo, constantly fighting for your life.

[Anonymous No.8307396]

>>8306427
Agreed.

[Anonymous No.8307451]

>>8306419
Doom 64 is essential, TNT is way more skip worthy

>>8307318
Thats true, altho I always hated that you needed to press use on the fireplace to proceed. Could of been more clear

[Anonymous No.8307482]

>>8307451
>Doom 64 is essential,

Doom 64 is boring. It's a long slog and I barely remember any of the maps. It's okay-tier and only memorable because it has new sprites and style, and was a weird spin off on a console.

[Anonymous No.8308457]

bump

[Anonymous No.8308469]

>>8306046
Playing through both recently kind of concurrently. NRFTL is the way better package and presentation, also has everything I love about early Doom 1 and 2 maps. Master Levels has a few gems spread throughout, and sheer multitude of content, but some of it is painfully average, some of it annoying even.
>>8307318
>Black Tower
Just played this for the first time last night on Ultra-violence. Remarkable and ridiculously hard but in a good way. Great map.

[Anonymous No.8308484]

>>8307318
I think there's a couple of good levels in the Master Levels, but I also think there's a lot which are unremarkable, and a few which is the opposite of enjoyable.

>>8307451
I'm a big TNT apologist, but I will agree, TNT is much more skippable. I think it's got some pretty damn good levels, but it also has some certifiably dull and even awful ones.

My standard advice for TNT is to try it out, to feel free to skip Map 07 (because God Damn...!), and then see how you enjoy it from there, dropping it if you feel like it's draining you. TNT was a community project which was bought and turned into an official commercial product, and it shows, it's experimental and some authors are clearly not as talented as others.
TNT is interesting for its experimentation and variety, but it's also why parts of it are bad.

Meanwhile, Doom 64 has a much more consistent quality in its level design, it doesn't have any serious stinkers like Metal or Baron's Den, where the progression is dildos and the fun comes to a very abrupt halt.

[Anonymous No.8308490]

>>8307482
I found Doom 64 was dull and barren on any difficulty except for Watch Me Die, where I found it was a pretty decent and fun experience. Not the hardest ever, but it didn't feel like it was constantly holding back.

[Anonymous No.8308573]

NRFTL is great. Vivisection is one of my favourite doom levels.

[Anonymous No.8308876]

>>8306419
Congratulations, you are an idiot.

[Anonymous No.8308890]

>>8308484
>My standard advice for TNT is to try it out, to feel free to skip Map 07 (because God Damn...!)
I'm playing TNT for the first time and I loved map 7. In fact, the first 15 were all more or less great. But 16 and 18-20 have been pretty iffy, some obtuse switches and a couple of outright trollish ideas.

[Anonymous No.8308974]

>>8308890
Glad that you like it, however didn't you find the progression in Map 07 to be really frustrating and unfun? I'll definitely say that the weaker levels congealed in the last 'episode' of the set.

[Anonymous No.8309001]

>>8308974
No, I thought it was fairly easy to navigate. The first little area was very compact, then you go out to the open courtyard/moat area which is easy to run around, teleporter next to the fort takes you to it, teleporter in the lava takes you to the lava moat prison, teleporter at the prison takes you inside for the joyous projectile gangbang, then it's just a bridge across, one more big fight area, and it's done. In fact, double checking to make sure I didn't forget something I hated only makes me love it more thanks to that absolutely grooving song.

[Anonymous No.8309021]

>>8309001
Oh fuck, did I confuse the mapslots of Prison and Metal again? No, Map 07 is pretty ok, I meant Map 08, which is a level which I don't like much at all.

[Anonymous No.8309257]

>>8306046
NRFTL is the best shit that came out of the official stuff, no doubt. Wish it was a fully feldged 32 map megawad though, doesn't matter, still really good.

[Anonymous No.8309287]

>>8309257
Hey, who knows, what with Romero making Sigil, and old pros like Dario Casali, and Lee Jackson (for some reason) showing up on Doomworld in 2021, maybe Castle will have another go at some Doom 2 maps?

[Anonymous No.8309386]

Thoughts on Perdition's Gate that almost got released as a third episode in Final Doom? I haven't got around to playing it yet.

[Anonymous No.8309409]

>>8306046
>Master Levels
The best maps in it are mediocre even for 1995. Willits' and Mustaine's maps are overly simmetrical and their deathmatch nature really shows. All of Dr Sleep's maps look basically the same and bleed together. Kvernmo has probably the best and the worst level in the whole set. Jim Flynn tries way too hard to make a puzzle map. Chris Klie's maps are just dogshit and I don't get how they got through id's QA testing.
>NRFTL
Yeah it's pretty good

[Anonymous No.8309413]

>>8309409
Also play both with their MIDI packs

[Anonymous No.8309429]

It's funny how good NRFTL is comparatively, since it was made by people with no real standing in the Doom community, and it was a barely advertized bonus for the 360 release.

[Anonymous No.8309462]

>>8306046
Plutonia > No Rest > TNT > ML

The master levels are all pretty boring and sometimes awful but there’s the odd couple of maps that are genuinely great. I never want to even consider playing Mephisto’s Mausoleum ever again

[Anonymous No.8310719]

>>8309386
Redpill me on this, never knew about a third Final Doom episode, somehow I've never heard about it despite almost being a fuckin walking encyclopedia on Doom shit

[Anonymous No.8310728]

>>8310719
https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Perdition%27s_Gate

[Anonymous No.8310731]

>>8310719
>>8310728
More info from the mapper himself with link to the download

http://www.mustaine.com/about/video-game-work/perditions-gate/

[Anonymous No.8311040]

No Rest for the Living, almost feels like a Doom 1 episode in structure. Love it.

[Anonymous No.8311090]

>>8309021
I loved map 8 too, but I'm also a Marathonfag and that last room with all the rising platforms was very Marathonesque to me. Beat map 22 a couple hours ago and that level was bad in a funny way, made very little sense, a couple of bugs with doors and spawning, and had unusually ugly lighting too.

[Anonymous No.8311212]

>>8311090

Same. I like techbase levels the most, and TNT has some of the biggest, best and hardest ones.

[Anonymous No.8311623]

>>8306419
Jesus what a bad opinion. Don't listen to this retard.

[Anonymous No.8311641]

>>8306419
Things really should be played in this order.
>Knee Deep in the Dead
>The shores of hell
>Inferno
>Doom 2
>Thy flesh consumed
>Master Levels
>TNT
>Ploutonia
>No rest for the living

Master Levels at the end is acceptable.

[Anonymous No.8312458]

>>8309386
It's a mixed bag in a different sense.

I played it a few years back, and the first thing that struck me was that the readme promised CBT difficulty and the help screen lists the cheat codes for you. I thought "Woah, shit, better pick HMP so I don't get overwhelmed."
In actuality, the CBT consisted of blueballing me, where combat encounters and level design feeling like I'm being handled with kid gloves more often than not. I actually got pissed at numerous points; "What, that's IT?"
It's probably more fun on UV, at least, it would be more fun for me.

Where I think it falters pretty hard is in its level design. Perdition's Gate was originally a small mapset which Tom Mustaine and his dad had been tinkering with, and during the Final Doom thing, was offered to iD Software as yet another part of Final Doom, but they were told "the window of opportunity had closed" and the offer rejected.
Shopping it around, they offer it to Wraith Corporation, which were making a 32 level megawad as a commercial product, Hell 2 Pay, they thought "Great, let's fill it out into 32 levels and publish it as dual megawad bundle, just like Final Doom!"

Wraith Co.'s mappers goes to town on filling in map slots, and it ends up being some pretty uninspired stuff, a staggering amount of levels look, feel, and play the same, which is frustrating because some levels are actually pretty novel and interesting, but once you see them the first time their themes never return, so together with the VERY low difficulty on HMP, it was a big tease of a mapset for me, which left me very unsatisfied. It's not awful, there's some great glimmers in there, but I think you could cut out about half of all the levels from perdgate.wad and it would be a much better mapset for it.

Perhaps if iD had taken the deal and Mustaine instead completed it together with some other Team TNT mappers, it could have been something much greater.

[Anonymous No.8314386]

>>8306419
How do you consider TNT essential but not Doom 2?

[Anonymous No.8315817]

>>8306046
I'm currently on map 8 of D2TWID and I'm legitimately impressed at the absolutely atrocious map design compared to DTWID. My experience so far has been going from cheap trap to cheap trap and dodging the never-ending spam of hitscanners and fireballs while simultaneously chainsawing literal hordes of pinkies.

I see they tried to imitate Petersen's puzzly/hordy mapping style but holy shit did they absolutely fail at it.

[Anonymous No.8315869]

>>8315817
Interesting, I loved D2TWID.

[Anonymous No.8316348]

>>8315817
Just like Doom 2!

[Anonymous No.8316708]

>>8314386
Final Doom does everything D2 does but better.

[Anonymous No.8317395]

>>8316708
If that was true I'd feel compelled to play final doom over doom 2 more often.

[Anonymous No.8317671]

>>8306046
no rest for the living a a nice, fun, expansion for DOOM.
the master levels are awful in every way from what i remember.

[Anonymous No.8317675]

>>8307451
DOOM 64 had great atmosphere,but the combat is comparatively dull,a step back from DOOM2 and especially final-DOOM,probably due to gimped monster variety.

[Anonymous No.8318175]

>>8317675
For me, it's Doom 64 for Doom 2

[Anonymous No.8318182]

>>8317675
A lot of it is the tight corridors which don't allow for movement turning it into a corridor shooter.

[Anonymous No.8318309]

>>8317675
Which difficulty level did you play on?

[Anonymous No.8318324]

>>8318309
i think both the hardest and second hardest.
the hardest was a bit better,but the real issues didn't really change.

[Anonymous No.8318474]

>>8318324
I see. I felt the game was just way too boring on anything but hardest, which I think did pretty decently. Even Simpler is actually a pretty tough level on WMD.

[Anonymous No.8319065]

>>8318309
>>8318324
Hardest adds an assload of barons and hell knights who take forever to kill.

[Anonymous No.8319321]

>>8319065
Yeah but the game gives you shitloads of rockets.

[Anonymous No.8320496]

>>8308573

Oh hell yeah. OP here. Just beat it. Took me two tries. Reminded me of RE4. Had to go slow and methodically and conserve my ammo and health a lot.

[Anonymous No.8320680]

>>8308573
>>8320496
Just played this map as well for the first time. Fantastic, definitely one of my faves so far - it's like an unfolding puzzle box full of demons.

[Anonymous No.8321732]

>>8306046
NRFTL is the highest quality official content for classic Doom.
Master Levels is what you call so bad it's actually good. Fun if you don't take it seriously and have experience with bad Doom mapping tropes (get ready for some wall humping).

[Anonymous No.8323582]

>>8306046
Bumping this to spite the general fags.

[Anonymous No.8324763]

>>8323582
based.

[Anonymous No.8324830]

>>8323582
I'll gladly chat and shoot the shit with anyone who likes classic Doom and wants to discuss different level sets, be it the general or anywhere else.

[Anonymous No.8324895]

>>8323582
>to spite

[Anonymous No.8326424]

I've not played Doom in like, months, I think I'll break this fast with NRFTL