/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.8215025]

Which game had more of a negative impact on the gaming industry?

[Anonymous No.8215027]

>>8215025
Both of them heavily emphasized story on a mainstream level so I don't really see how either is "more" to blame for anything. What did FF7 impact, RPGshit being in games? I have fucking autism so numbers going up in a game is fine by me.

[Anonymous No.8215030]

FF7 is just the logical next step for JRPGs, if you dislike FF7 and 'blame' it theres no reason to not just blame all off FF or DQ1.

MGS is a cool video game but the industry learned the wrong lessons from it, even its own developers.

[Anonymous No.8215035]

Remember when games were good?

[Anonymous No.8215040]

>>8215035
Yes

[Anonymous No.8215048]

>>8215025
Final Fantasy 7 for certain. Both games helped launch the cinematic trend, but MGS still had a lot of fun game to it unlike FF7.

[Anonymous No.8215058]

>>8215048
nah man
ff7 influenced jrpgs
mgs made developers go 'what if we can just make movies in video games?'

[Anonymous No.8215060]

>>8215025
Neither caused a "negative impact" really.

Regarding cinematics, the crutch of pre-rendered eye candy eventually wore off, and while it lasted it provided the comparatively larger benefit of allowing the expansion of the medium by appealing to larger audiences, bridging technical limitations until rich enough visuals could be executed in real time.

Regarding emphasis on non-interactive content, that was just exploratory steps towards a proper balance, and the increased richness and complexity of stories contributed to the same benefits as the previous point.

Regarding jRPGs and how fucking lame they are, that's the genre's fault, not that particular game's just on grounds on being more popular than the average.

[Anonymous No.8215061]

I like both games and am a huge MGSfag. MGS hurt the industry to an extent. The game had a lot of cutscenes and dialogue, but that was the gimmick, and the game had things to say, regardless of your opinion on them. The series success just brought failed directors who hate games to try their hand, but during the 6th gen that sort of thing was still a novelty. Games becoming bad movies with no gameplay was a natural progression of the medium once it hit mainstream, games like MGS only gave em a little push.

[Anonymous No.8215063]

>>8215025
Metal gear solid

[Anonymous No.8215065]

Nobody I know played either game.

[Anonymous No.8215069]

>>8215060
>Regarding cinematics, the crutch of pre-rendered eye candy eventually wore off, and while it lasted it provided the comparatively larger benefit of allowing the expansion of the medium by appealing to larger audiences, bridging technical limitations until rich enough visuals could be executed in real time.
>Regarding emphasis on non-interactive content, that was just exploratory steps towards a proper balance, and the increased richness and complexity of stories contributed to the same benefits as the previous point.
you're just straight up wrong here. you act like modern games have left these 'dark ages' when they're actually worse and covering themselves in shit on purpose while revising history to make it so this is what video games are supposed to be

[Anonymous No.8215071]

>>8215058
FF7 ruined the series
>Before: Crystals, ensemble casts full of development, vast adventures that don’t overstay their welcome
>After: Game is about one character’s journey, a villain that’s somehow related to him, bland one dimensional background party members will little importance on the narrative, damsel in destress heroine that only service to be romanced by the lead, heavy focus on fmv cutscenes

[Anonymous No.8215072]

>>8215065
Good for you, you fucking nigger.

[Anonymous No.8215075]

>>8215071
>>After:
>literally introduces the concept of the Disc-One Boss to the series, a tired trope that bloats the game

[Anonymous No.8215076]

>>8215071
>before
>ensemble casts full of development
yeah tell me about the character arcs in ff1-5 LMAO

[Anonymous No.8215080]

>>8215058
It influenced wrpgs as well. Bioware definitely looked at FF7's success and decided to increase the story faggotry in Baldur's Gate 2.

[Anonymous No.8215086]

>>8215080
and thats a direct improvement because BG1 is a total snorefest like most other generic CRPGs where you control a party of nameless anonymous mooks that you are tasked with creating before you even know the mechanics of the game.
I dont understand the western obsession of RPGs with no story starring nobody
only games of those type i can tolerate are Fallout 1 and Planescape

[Anonymous No.8215091]

>>8215076
Kain, Rydia, Rosa all have more development than any party member in 7, 8 or 10. Cloud’s character development gets retroactively ruined in advent children because of how much damage 7 had done to the overall series. Everyone wanted every FF to be a carbon copy of 7, trying to replicate it ruined FF. Just like how re4 ruined resident evil. FF9 tried to do the sprawling epic cinematic story while having a ensemble cast and as a result it was horribly paced and needed 3 whole discs building everyone up before a rushed climax where shit in the story actually starts happening

[Anonymous No.8215094]

>>8215035
I don’t like to hold this mindset because I’m trying to into game development myself. If anything, I like to think that modern mainstream games sucking just gives me more time to play more of the already massive library of classics from the last 30 years

[Anonymous No.8215135]

>>8215086
Okay pleb

[Anonymous No.8215146]

>>8215058
I'll take the bait. MGS has interesting game mechanics. Has you think outside of the box constantly. FF will always be a glorified, broken, calculator with anime men stuck on it. Don't let your power gems fuel your chakra mana heart of darkness nobodies. They put bugs in him.

[Anonymous No.8215149]

>>8215146
MGS can be both a good game and have a profoundly more negative impact on the industry than FF7, you total clown
I like MGS. Its great.
MGS was still bad for the industry. See >>8215030

[Anonymous No.8215175]

>>8215025
Wolfenstein because it invented the First Person Shooter genre the worst of all game types.

[Anonymous No.8215178]

>>8215175
absolutely based

[Anonymous No.8215184]

>>8215175
high iq

[Anonymous No.8215189]

>>8215061
i agree it definitely had things to say, but I wouldnt call it a gimmick

[Anonymous No.8215190]

>>8215189
a gimmick would be motion controls, or rumble feature. something added that is later abandoned as it proves to not really enhance the core experience

[Anonymous No.8215192]

>>8215175
can't refute that

[Anonymous No.8215210]

>>8215025
Equally destructive.

[Anonymous No.8215420]

FF7 hurt the industry more. Kojima is a hack, but at least he was thinking outside the box with bosses who would read what controller port you were using, you had to look at the back of the CD case to get a codec code, the game rewarded you for pacifism runs, and other stuff.

FF7 had a ton of translation issues. I don't know how the blocky, Minecraft-style models were ever acceptable to anyone. The audio is generally pretty bad and scratchy. I really don't get why people think this game is great.

[Anonymous No.8215427]

>>8215420
This anon are sick

[Anonymous No.8215435]

There’s no one on Earth more annoying than Kojima sycophants

[Anonymous No.8215441]

>>8215420
>he was thinking outside the box with bosses who would read what controller port you were using
that isn't good game design. thoae are carnival-tier gimmicks which are literally rendered pointless after the first time you play the game and serve no real purpose except to make you shoot a little air out of your nostrils and shitgrin for 3 seconds. go play a game with actual gameplay like starcraft.

[Anonymous No.8215442]

>>8215025
both have only had a positive impact on the industry.

[Anonymous No.8215457]

>play MGS for first time in decade
>disk freeze halfway through
>fucks sake
>try on retroarch
>rom has bug where I can't use item select
>FUCKS SAKE

[Anonymous No.8215524]

>>8215030
I disagree that. Kojima turned the series into the right direction with MGS2, it was the fanbase and the industry that completely failed to absorb his ideas and move vydia towards a more meaningful and experimental design. I do agree that the MGS series did impact negatively the future generations but I would not put that responsability upon the devs as they were interesting in doing things entirely diferent from what was being forced on them.

[Anonymous No.8215542]

>>8215442
leave

[Anonymous No.8215553]

>>8215542
Objectively speaking Mario and Zelda have had a more negative impact on 3D games going forward. At least you could skip the cutscenes in MGS if you wanted to.

[Anonymous No.8215560]

>>8215553
Yeah Zelda really was a huge story-based game with hours and hours of cutscenes, so much detail to the plot. Same with Mario 64 (the best 3D Mario game and also has the best plot of any Mario game)
Objectively speaking you're a faggot

[Anonymous No.8215564]

>>8215560
Yeah the cutscenes in zelda are very boring and drawn out. Doesn't help they can repeat themselves if you answer wrongly to a yes/no prompt you're trying to button past. Mario's another great example. Instead of making new content, just recycle the same stages several times. What a great contribution to 3D. "You don't have to make a new level! Just use the same one but make the player go to a different corner of the room!"

Really that's all modern games are these days. Pointless busy work in the same environment. The foundation for the ubisoft open world was laid way back in the 90s with Nintendo's games. Thanks for "teaching" everyone how to do 3D asshole. You were late to the party and ruined it for everyone.

[Anonymous No.8215569]

>>8215025
Ninja Gaiden on Xbox. But you will never understand why.

[Anonymous No.8215587]

>>8215094
I thought you were going to say that since you're a prospective game developer, "if anything I like to think that modern mainstream games sucking gives me further incentive to make better games going forward." Though I'd think a game developer would prefer that games were better now: it's more rewarding and challenge to beat the bar for something that's already good than a low bar.

[Anonymous No.8215594]

>>8215564
as a child I found them to be enchanting and captivating. could be you played the game when you were a little too old

[Anonymous No.8215613]

>>8215025
I rmember when FF "III" came out, the small fanbase were just comfy, normal people who you never felt embarassed to be around. Then for some reason when FFVII came out it was around the time all these proto-weebs were multiplying like fungus and they latched onto it like it was the second coming of Christ. There was actually a time when vidya wasn't beset by cringey "gamer nerd weeb" faggots and that ended sometime around 1997/98. It wasn't just FFVII and MGS, but Pokemon bullshit. Pokemon fans back then were the same as bronies when MLP:FiM got popular.

[Anonymous No.8215628]

At least FFVII was capable of telling its story without embarrassingly awful voice acting.

[Anonymous No.8215629]

>>8215594
I played them as a child too, Mostly to waste time until the next day. They weren't very good and the shift from 2D to 3D games drastically slowed everything down. That's something I never see the board talk about, the feeling that 2D games weren't going to be made any more, that 3D games were all insanely slow and clumsy for a time. Some did it well, others never recreated the quality of their 2D counterparts.

[Anonymous No.8215631]

>>8215457
>psx rom
>rom has bug
>didn’t get the redump
>sets /vr/ bar incredibly low

[Anonymous No.8215674]

>>8215025
FFVII made convoluted stories and inconsistent worlds acceptable in RPG's. Aeris' death was a cop-out that would reappear in later JRPG's. The planet explains everything to Aeris at the temple 2/3 of the way through the game and the game never explains to the player exactly WTF is going on or what the planet said, you're just supposed to be content knowing that a character knows it makes sense. She then runs off and dies as an excuse for never explaining anything to the player. They use her death as an emotional distraction so the player doesn't realize they're being cheated out of a decent story. What did the dirt say to her? You should get impaled by a big sword? It's stupid and lazy writing. The most tragic deaths in order are the three Avalanche members, Cait Sith, Rufus, and Aeris, which is really only tragically bad writing.

The world is inconsistent as possible. Leaving Midgar and traveling straight to Kalm, then the chocobo farm, then the mithril caves, is a jarring experience. Why is the world outside Midgar a classic fantasy theme? Half of the world is high tech cyberpunk and the other half is classic fantasy. Why did Shinra need the tiny bronco plane when they have hundreds of helicopters already? The game didn't seem to know what it wanted to be. Seeing Cloud, Tifa, and Barret looking like cyberpunk revolutionaries fighting dragons in some ancient magic cave looked completely unpolished.

Playing without a guide meant missing out on way too much. If materia is going to be all-important in combat strategy please don't make me pixel hunt for all the interesting materia in non-repeatable areas so that I permanently miss half of the most fun materia in the game. Playing with a guide ruins the first play through and if you waited to use the guide until your second play through it made the game unbearably boring. There's no winning when a guide is required to get the complete experience and yet JRPG's followed this trend for nearly two decades.

[Anonymous No.8215698]

>>8215035
yes, i played some good games just the other day

[Anonymous No.8215720]

>>8215027
>Both of them heavily emphasized story
Bullshit, MGS had a wide variety of gameplay systems on top of the protracted cutscenes.

[Anonymous No.8215723]

>>8215720
>>Both of them heavily emphasized story
>Bullshit
Yeah you really think the critics were jerking off over the gameplay?

[Anonymous No.8215764]

>>8215674
>Playing without a guide meant missing out on way too much. If materia is going to be all-important in combat strategy please don't make me pixel hunt for all the interesting materia in non-repeatable areas so that I permanently miss half of the most fun materia in the game. Playing with a guide ruins the first play through and if you waited to use the guide until your second play through it made the game unbearably boring. There's no winning when a guide is required to get the complete experience and yet JRPG's followed this trend for nearly two decades.
I dont get this. Am I the only one who looks EVERYWHERE when playing RPGs? I dont ever leave a town or dungeon without looking in every corner to not miss anything.

[Anonymous No.8216084]

games eventually stopped having half-assed stealth mechanics
but they doubled down on half-assed RPG mechanics

[Anonymous No.8216101]

>>8215764
I do the same thing. I used to not do it when I was 10, but now I’m an adult and realize that there are important things that may be hidden someplace unconventional.

[Anonymous No.8216250]

>>8215025
Add Resident Evil, then the unholy trinity of cancerous moviegames can be complete.

[Anonymous No.8216254]

>>8215035
No

[Anonymous No.8216438]

>>8215175
This

[Anonymous No.8216456]

>>8215035
there were always tons of shit games

you think gaming was better back then because you only remember the good games, all the shit games have faded from your memory

[Anonymous No.8216458]

>>8216250
Resident Rvil had gameplay

[Anonymous No.8216629]

>>8215071
>ensemble casts full of development
This is bullshit. I hate the PSX Final Fantasy games but admit they had more character development.
The big difference between pre- and post- FF7 is the ratio of combat to cutscenes and the general pace of gameplay. Cutscenes pre-FF7 tended to be brief. There are still "set pieces" but even then scenes like the FF6 Opera House don't happen until several hours into the game. The formula for 16-bit and earlier is to have the story provide a structure to the gameplay. The stories gradually became more elaborate but you never spent the bulk of your time in cutscenes and running around doing errands for NPCs. From FF7 onward, presentation of the story becomes the priority and the gameplay is just filler between cutscenes.

In any case, by the time you get to FF9 and FF10 the shit is getting really obnoxious and there's barely any gameplay compared to development of characters that I no zero interest in seeing develop. At least in the SNES games if I didn't like a character, they were rarely in the spotlight very long. Post-FF7 feels like watching a second-rate TV show with first-rate graphics and art, occasional breaks for gameplay.

[Anonymous No.8216664]

>>8215764
>I dont get this
I agree, sort of. Yeah, I look in every corner, etc., that still doesn't change the general annoyance of having this pressure to seize every opportunity to find missables. Games that have a shit-ton of story content to sit through and tedious minigames to complete make me much less likely to replay them. So I wind up feeling extra pressure to find everything on the first go since I'll be less likely to want to play the whole thing again.

It wasn't such a big deal in earlier games because (a) there were fewer missables (b) less reasons discouraging me from playing it a second time.

[Anonymous No.8216674]

>>8215060
Always some faggot hating RPGs.

[Anonymous No.8216709]

>>8216674
but rpgs are for faggots

[Anonymous No.8216941]

>>8215025
Mario 64.

[Anonymous No.8216958]

>>8215025
Final Fuckboy 7
but also Halo

[Anonymous No.8217219]

>>8215025
Both of them were literally inevitable changes to the industry you could already see coming at the time, and only represent early-ish examples, not trendsetting in any way. Games weren't trying to be huge budgets, movie games or 3D RPGs because these existed, those things were coming whether they existed or not (and in the case of games trying to be movies and budget overexpenditure, were already happening before them anyway).

[Anonymous No.8217225]

>>8216456
yeah but there were at least good games back then as opposed to now where there are Zero good games you moron

[Anonymous No.8217237]

>>8216958
you only hate cloud cause his boyhole tighter than urs

[Anonymous No.8217263]

>>8216456
Samurai Showdown won Game of the year over Doom, Mortal Kombat, Link's Awakening, Star Fox, Myst, Day of the Tentacle, Myst, Virtua Fighter, Gunstar Heroes, Mortal Kombat II, X Wing vs TIE Fighter & Return to Zork back then

You legitmately had to be a revolutionary or ground breaking game to win game of the year, now gaming is so bad and corrupt that it goes to the most left-wing pandering title that has the most blacks or transgenders in it

[Anonymous No.8217282]

Both. FF had been shitting up games for a while with storyshit and culminated with the pretentious shit of VII and MGS just dropped a steaming pile of bad gameplay and laughably dumb story into gaming.
Of course, the viral marketing to new gamers made this shit insanely successful which is why gaming is the way it is today (complete trash).

[Anonymous No.8217768]

>>8215025
ET Atari 2600

[Anonymous No.8217842]

>>8217263
implying GOTY actually means anything

[Anonymous No.8218580]

>>8215025
Metal Gear Solid helped cause the massive increase in overlong cut scenes we saw in almost every genre. FF7 just popularized JRPG's which you could have easily ignored

[Anonymous No.8218583]

>>8215071
>bland one dimensional background party members will little importance on the narrative, damsel in destress heroine that only service to be romanced by the lead
Sorry, why are you bringing up Final Fantasy IV?

[Anonymous No.8218687]

>>8218583
and he also says
>a villain that’s somehow related to him
without a hint of irony

[Anonymous No.8218698]

>>8215189
>>8215190
I called it a gimmick because proper games with tons of plot with full voice acting weren't very common at all. Maybe puzzle and point and click games, but not in a proper action game. It sure enhanced the experience, but it doesn't enhance the ludo aspect in a technical sense. It obviously wasn't abandoned as that sort of thing was the core of MGS games, to such an extent that MGS2's plot is a commentary on MGS1's structure, and in sequels in general. In an ideal timeline, games like MGS should've remained the exception, not the rule. Even then, it's not fair at all to compare MGS to modern games, modern games are ass shit in almost every way, including MGS post 3.

[Anonymous No.8218703]

fat american n64 hands typed this thread

[Anonymous No.8218731]

>>8217263
There are no games today. Just semi-interactive “bread and circus” tier propaganda.

[Anonymous No.8219641]

>>8215628
How is the English voice acting in Metal Gear Solid embarrassingly awful? It is as hammy as the Japanese original. They were both going for the Hollywood spy action movie delivery. If anything, voice acting camp was translated between the two languages. You translate Japanese camp and you get English camp. Same with French, German, Italian, Spanish voice acting. All the PS1 dubs had the campy delivery. Kojima himself jerks off to Hollywood action movies. Metal Gear 2's original portraits had the likes of Mel Gibson and Sean Connery for fuck's sake.

[Anonymous No.8219659]

>>8215025
Xenogears which led to Xenosaga. Tales of Phantasia which led to the idea of the EA Sports equivalent of RPG sequels by shitting out average Tales follow ups. Or .hack which led to the shitty chapter / part model we see in tripe like Life is Strange 1/2 or Deltarune. What game came with the first instance of DLC and pay to win?

[Anonymous No.8220440]

>>8215025
I don't think either of them did anything that wouldn't have happened otherwise, save for FF7 breaking open JRPGs for a lot of people. The "cinematic" stuff was inevitable.