/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.8162964]

as an outsider, what's the appeal of the Ultima series?
writing? combat? exploration?

[Anonymous No.8162973]

>>8162964
freedom

[Anonymous No.8162980]

>>8162964
First of it's kind as well as a lot of freedom and choice making. Ultima 4 was doing shit that you still can't do in modern games

[Anonymous No.8162982]

>>8162964
This isn't about an Ultima game, but read this blog post. You'll understand the appeal.
http://beyondfomalhaut.blogspot.com/2021/01/beyonde-nox-archaist-hottest-apple-game.html

In short, they're open world games more open than any Elder Scrolls shite ever was. Giant worlds, giant underworlds, lots of characters with whom you actually meaningfully interact, etc. For an example, you actually type what you say to characters and they react to keywords. In order to advance the plot, you need to actually learn and understand things. Somebody mentions a dungeon, so you talk to someone else about dungeons, and one of the characters mentions the legend, so you talk about legends and someone tells you the legend where the dungeon is named. Now you can talk about the dungeon's name and find someone who's heard about someone from another town where it might me located. Ask about the town you've just learned about and travel there with your bros. You can't get this kind of adventure experience from any other game series to this day.

[Anonymous No.8163003]

>>8162964
Look at Divinity, TES, and Gothic if you want to understand the appeal. All three series were heavily influenced by Ultima, particularly VII: The Black Gate.

[Anonymous No.8163008]

>>8162964 (OP)
Take a look at Divinity, The Elder Scrolls, and Gothic if you want to understand the appeal. All three series were heavily influenced by Ultima, particularly The Black Gate.

[Anonymous No.8163318]

>>8162973
kek

[Anonymous No.8163509]

>>8162964
there is none lol

[Anonymous No.8163520]

>>8163509
spoken like a true pleb

[Anonymous No.8163532]

>>8162982
Sounds really kino. One of the most poignant things pic related ever said was that people don't want convenience in games, they only think they do. Having to go through all that to find a dungeon sounds incredibly exciting.
Not retro, but it's one of the reasons why I turned on pro-mode on my first Breath of the Wild playthrough.

[Anonymous No.8163551]

>>8162964
The appeal was the what it did at the time. Here come the (You)s and I know people don't wanna hear this, but just play Baldur's Gate. It stands on the shoulders of what this game was going for and isn't some archaic nightmare you have to pretend to enjoy for internet cool guy points.

Important, but unplayable is the Ultima franchise in a nutshell.

[Anonymous No.8163558]

>>8162980
Which is funny because it actually inspired modern games. The creators of the first Grand Theft Auto said they were inspired by the freedom found in the early Ultima games such as Ultima III, in particular, to have the freedom for the character to go wherever they want, kill or rob from any NPC they want, etc.

When Ultima III was new, parents of children (that frankly had nothing better to do) actually sent letters to Origin saying that the game was too violent, not for any graphical reasons, (just look at it) but just the idea that their children could kill any character in the game. This is why
Ultima IV has the ethical mechanics and the premise of finding and fulfilling the "Eight Virtues" the morality ideas were themselves borne as a response to the moral backlash that Ultima III received.

In a move of brilliance rarely seen from RPG video games, Ultima V turned this very morality aspect itself on its side: when Blackthorne overtakes Britannia, the Avatar personally witnesses the consequences of the Eight Virtues when they are distorted and forcibly imposed.

This is why Ultima IV, V, VI and VII are the peak of the series. The Ultima games were not only landmark games for the role-playing genre, the most influential games in that genre, they utilized their intricate world and game mechanics to do things with the story and interactivity that few game developers today even try to accomplish.

[Anonymous No.8163576]

>>8162964
>>8162980
>Ultima 4 was doing shit that you still can't do in modern games
Which is funny, because Ultima actually inspired modern games. The creators of the first Grand Theft Auto said they were inspired by the freedom found in the Ultima games such as Ultima III (in particular) where the player had the freedom to go wherever they wanted to, kill or rob any NPC they wanted to, etc.

When Ultima III was new, parents of children (that frankly had nothing better to do) actually sent letters to Origin saying that the game was too violent, not for any graphical reasons, (just look at it) but just the idea that their children could kill any character in the game. This is why
Ultima IV has the ethical mechanics and the premise of finding and fulfilling the "Eight Virtues." The idea of designing the game around morality was itself a response to the moral backlash that Ultima III received.

Then in a stroke of brilliance, Ultima V turned the morality feature itself on its side: when Blackthorne overtakes Britannia, the Avatar personally witnesses the consequences of the Eight Virtues when they are distorted and forcibly imposed on the populace

Ultima IV, V, VI and VII are the peak of the series. The Ultima games were not only landmark games for the role-playing genre and the most influential games of that genre, they utilized their intricate world and game mechanics to do things with the story and interactivity you couldn't experience from a non-interactive medium.

[Anonymous No.8163578]

>>8162964
They're important, ambitious, and highly influential but good luck enjoying them so far removed from their time. Newer RPGs did it better. I tried 6 not long ago. I wanted to enjoy it real bad. Just couldn't take it anymore at about the halfway point. Maybe 7's this stuff but I dunno. Kinda just think Fallout is my CRPG crust cutoff.

[Anonymous No.8163584]

>>8163578
I played 4 for the first time like 4 years ago and enjoyed it quite a bit despite it being so old.

[Anonymous No.8163598]

>>8162964
>>8162980
>Ultima 4 was doing shit that you still can't do in modern games
Which is funny, because Ultima actually inspired modern games. The creators of the first Grand Theft Auto said they were inspired by the freedom found in the Ultima games such as Ultima III (in particular) where the player had the freedom to go wherever they wanted to, kill or rob any NPC they wanted to, etc.

When Ultima III was new, parents of children (that frankly had nothing better to do) actually sent letters to Origin saying that the game was too violent, not for any graphical reasons, (just look at it) but just the idea that their children could kill any character in the game. This is why
Ultima IV has the ethical mechanics and the premise of finding and fulfilling the "Eight Virtues." The idea of designing the game around morality was itself a response to the moral backlash that Ultima III received.

Then in a stroke of brilliance, Ultima V turned the morality feature itself on its side: when Blackthorne overtakes Britannia, the Avatar personally witnesses the consequences of the Eight Virtues when they are distorted and forcibly imposed on the populace

Ultima IV, V, VI and VII are the peak of the series. The Ultima games were not only landmark games for the role-playing genre and the most influential games of that genre, they utilized their intricate world and game mechanics to do things with the story and interactivity you couldn't experience from a non-interactive medium.

[Anonymous No.8163601]

>>8163532
Your e-celeb sounds like he's missing a bit of nuance there. Convenience a.k.a. optimization is necessary up to the point it starts cutting into fun gameplay. This kind of quest system would work much worse in a game that didn't have as much world to immerse yourself in along the way (like Daggerfall).

[Anonymous No.8163610]

>>8163578
Ultima VII is very different than Ultima VI. Its graphic user interface, for one thing, is entirely overhauled. (The graphic user interface and inventory management were among the weaker aspects of Ultima VI.)

Try it out with Exult, (which makes it run at any resolution on modern Windows OS/hardware, unless it has scaling options I'm unaware of I'd recommend a resolution below 1920x1080 though so things aren't too skewed.) you can find it in a matter of minutes for free and Exult itself is obviously completely free to download and boot the game with. Before you do you can read more about the game here:

hardcoregaming101.net/ultima-vii-the-black-gate

[Anonymous No.8163795]

They should remake these, the horrid perspective and spastic movement is enough to drive any sane person away

[Anonymous No.8163857]

>>8163795
This is called oblique or cabinet projection. Totally legit you low IQ mongoloid.
Don't like it? Fuck far off.

[Anonymous No.8163858]

>>8163795
>enough to drive any retarded pleb away
Good.

[Anonymous No.8163868]

Ultima Underworlds have their own appeal as simulated 3D worlds with multiple options to solve problems within the game world, some of which were never planned for by the developers.

[Anonymous No.8164037]

>>8163578
>Newer RPGs did it better
just watch a movie, zoomer

[Anonymous No.8164129]

>>8163857
>>8163858
They're not wrong about the spastic movement and the perspective. ASCII Ultimas looked better than this for sure.

[Anonymous No.8164168]

>>8163857
Who gives a fuck if it's "legit". It looks like shit and the two frame jerking they call animation isn't helping either. This isn't like tank controls, which require a higher IQ. Everyone can play Ultima, but that doesn't change the fact it plays and looks like ass.

[Anonymous No.8164179]

>>8164168
You're right and they're wrong, but why the fuck do you equate Ultima with VI and VII? Ultima objectively peaked at 4 or 5, depending on opinion. The sprite-based ones are garbage by anyone's standard. They're very weird and were the death of the series.

[Anonymous No.8164194]

>>8163601
>Your e-celeb sounds like he's missing a bit of nuance there.
Agreed.
>>8163532
>One of the most poignant things pic related ever said was that people don't want convenience in games
They do though. To the extent that they don't, the devil is in the details. What are the incentives to tolerate the inconvenience? To what extent is the apparent inconvenience actually involve some kind of fun or engaging gameplay? Or is it just tedium?
The rise of instancing in MMORPGs like Everquest and World of Warcraft are really the perfect example of this and the sometimes unavoidable tradeoffs and decisions you have to make as a game designer. Instancing harms the integrity of the world and the sense that it's a real place, an alternate virtual reality. No instancing means players have to negotiate with each other, guilds must engage in diplomacy with other guilds, and so on. But lack of instancing leads to content-starvation. It leads to extremely boring gameplay like sitting in one room for 6+ hours grinding trash because that's the most sensible way to optimize XP and loot drops.

[Anonymous No.8164204]

>>8164168
>>8164129
Filtered

[Anonymous No.8164214]

>>8164194
Players want pleasure to be delayed and earned rather than given immediately. It only becomes frustrating when the pleasurable part doesn't live up to the amount of inconvenience it took to get there. That's the whole thing.

[Anonymous No.8164220]

>>8163795
Ultima perspective is the most surreal shit I've found in retro games.

[Anonymous No.8164254]

>>8164220
Sorry to hear about that

[Anonymous No.8164297]

>>8164220
It's the "I want to do isometric but without the extra coding and processing that isometric would require".

I completely agree, it's horrible. Worse than the original visual style of the series by far.

I don't know how the fuck anyone ever managed to play Tibia.

[Anonymous No.8164306]

>ITT plebs

[Anonymous No.8164309]

Are Ultima I II and III worthwhile beyond "I stubbornly want to play the whole series in order to see how its evolution"?

[Anonymous No.8164313]

>>8164297
You have not the slightest idea against what limitations people coded in those days, dumbass kid. Go play with something shiny.

[Anonymous No.8164335]

>>8164194
>To what extent is the apparent inconvenience actually involve some kind of fun or engaging gameplay?
Yeah, I 100% agree. Most of the hearkening back to the days of "inconvenient" mechanics I see out there is actually a yearning for enjoyable but niche mechanics that aren't part of the modern game design vocabulary (like, say, having to find your own way based on textual clues and map-reading rather than being handed an objective marker). No one actually wants to masochistically go back to shitty, unreadable UIs or what have you.

[Anonymous No.8164347]

>>8164309
Play IV or V. And you must read the manual.

[Anonymous No.8165086]

>>8164309
One is easy to get into because of how simple it is but you are still required to read the manual and write stuff down like the later Ultima games. Two is obtuse and hard at the beginning. Three is fun and sort of a glimpse into what the series would become but it also can be a bit tedious due to how encounters work.

[Anonymous No.8165120]

>>8162964
Back then, for me, it was the VGA graphics and SoundBlaster 2.0 music/sound. Someone lent 7 to me and I got addicted to it and Final Fantasy 2(4 easy) at the same time. I liked exploring with full freedom and finding things. There were interesting characters and side stories around.

[Anonymous No.8165241]

>>8162964
This dude: >>8162973 got it. That and interactivity.

[Anonymous No.8165250]

>>8165120
lonely moron

[Anonymous No.8165278]

>Being a ruler of Britannia
>Literally cost half of the problem since Exodus

What's his fucking problem?

[Anonymous No.8165629]

>>8164297
The problem with isometric is that you end up with a tilted grid which makes layout and movement confusing.
The oblique projection in Ultima 6 made sense since it preserved the normal grid of the tile based games and added some depth.
Keeping it for 7 where they got rid of grid movement was a bad decision.

[Anonymous No.8165632]

>>8165278
He's British

[Anonymous No.8165645]

>>8162964
I only like the Ultima Underworld games but the appeal is that they (and System Shock 1, if you could even consider it an RPG) are the only good real-time DRPGs to this day.

[Anonymous No.8166441]

>>8165278

Literally cost half of what now?

[Anonymous No.8166463]

>>8165629

They coulda just drawn things like Zelda III does. Surely that would have been fine. You can draw a somewhat 3D-looking world, and keep your simple, intuitive controls, and put a dude's head directly above his feet where they seem to belong, all at the same time. It is in fact possible.

Personally I'd rather get used to a weirdo scheme in which pushing right makes my character go up-right while pushing up makes him go up-left than get used to a weirdo scheme in which my character's head is NOT above his feet.

[Anonymous No.8166538]

>>8166463
Which one is Zelda 3, Kamigami no Triforce or Yumemiru Shima?

[Anonymous No.8166704]

>>8163532
People who don't actually like games do want convenience, and they have buying power, unfortunately. I've met these people. They'll literally just turn a game off if they can't sleepwalk through it while stoned.
I think you have two basic types of "gamers": those who want systems and challenges to interact with, and those who look at a box art and want to be the cool guy with the sword, and will resent anything that stands in the way of that fantasy.

[Anonymous No.8166742]

>>8166441
i think that was supposed to say "caused" instead of "cost"

[Anonymous No.8166850]

>>8166704
FOMO is also a reason. Consoomers want to tell themselves that they have experienced every great classic ever made, but that's impossible, so they act like games that are not easily accessible are not true classics.

[Anonymous No.8166868]

>>8166704
FOMO is another big reason. Consoomers want to tell themselves that they have experienced every classic, but that's impossible. So what do they do? They pretend games that are not easily accessible to them are not true classics.

[Anonymous No.8166932]

>>8165645
>and System Shock 1, if you could even consider it an RPG
SS1 was made specifically because they were burnt out on making RPGs after crunching for a year to make UUW2.

[Anonymous No.8167492]

>>8166538

I meant Link to the Past but actually Link's Awakening kinda works as an example too.

[Anonymous No.8168603]

>>8162964
How would one play Ultima on a modern PC? Is there an image guide out there like there are for other long series?

[Anonymous No.8168620]

>>8168603
depends on which version you want to play or if you want to play a remake

[Anonymous No.8168623]

>>8163598
How do I get ultima 3 and 4 running on a windows 98 machine without running too fast?

[Anonymous No.8168627]

>>8168620
I wouldn't mind starting from 1 and going through the series, but I guess any remake would do if it's similar to how FF Origins or DQ1 were updated in their PS1/SFC ports.

[Anonymous No.8168738]

>>8164168
>and looks like ass.
It looks gorgeous tho.

[Anonymous No.8168857]

>>8163598
Ultima kicks ass for basically weaving new tabletop roleplaying game systems and mechanics into each release to explore the setting from fresh perspectives and angles

[Anonymous No.8168919]

>>8168603
https://gog-games.com/search/ultima
already set up for modern PC use
pirate them dont give money to EA

[Anonymous No.8168950]

>>8162982
Exploration, sure, but that keyword system sounds like a gimmicky pain in the ass. I'm sure it was a neat parlor trick in the early 80s that a game could "totally recognize what you're saying and not just do an indexOf match on a substring", but learning and insight systems have always sucked and I doubt this early version of it fares any better.

[Anonymous No.8169453]

>>8168919
That's a bad advise. The IBM versions often lacked features such as sound and you need fan patched to reinsert them.
https://www.pixsoriginadventures.co.uk/category/ultima-patcher/

>>8168603
1 and 2 are technically best on FM Towns. 2 just gets even worse due to bugfixes.
4 has an engine remake called xu4 that has been integrated into ScummVM. Alternatively you can play the SMS port which was surprisingly well done for a console Ultima.
5 is finally seeing some progress with Ultima 5 Redux but as long as it's not playable you're stuck with the old versions. Lazarus is too much fan fiction to serve as an alternative.
6 is covered by nuvie that allows things like using the voice acting from the FM Towns version. It's also included in ScummVM nowadays. It aims to support the World of Ultima games but they still need work done.
7 and Serpent Isle are handled by the Exult engine. They also support extra mods, namely Keyring for Black Gate and SI Fixes for Serpent Isle.
8 is covered by Pentagram, also included in ScummVM.
9 has a lot of bug fixes since release.
https://ultima9.ultimacodex.com/forgotten-world/

[Anonymous No.8169646]

>>8164179
Because the screenshot is from those.

>>8168738
That's what makes it even more infuriating, the art itself if well done, but with a shit perspective.

[Anonymous No.8169676]

>>8163598
Good post. I'm going to have to try one of these games out sometime.

[Anonymous No.8169830]

>>8162964
you still can't get the same level of world interactivity outside of dwarf fortress today

[Anonymous No.8169837]

>>8169830
It's not about interactivity. It's about having actual stuff to do in those interactive worlds. Ultima games were great because they were chock-full of interesting content, not because you could kill anyone or go anywhere.

[Anonymous No.8169839]

>>8169837
well i'm talking about the mundane things even outside the plot, the setting in fact was what was really cool

you could get a scythe and cut some wheat and bring it to the mill and mill some flour and then mix it with water and bake bread or put other things in like sugar and fruits to make different products and sell it to make money, for example

none of this was necessary of course, but it was all in there

[Anonymous No.8169859]

>>8169839
That's only really present in Ultima 6.

[Anonymous No.8171406]

>>8169859
No it’s enhanced significantly in VII. Did you even play Ultima games at all or are there chat bots on VR too now?

[Anonymous No.8171494]

>>8171406
I played all Ultima games.
Ultima 7 lost a lot of the interactivity from 6. The Keyring mod reintroduced some stuff like milking cows so maybe that confused you.
There was no real option to make money in 7 aside from selling mutton.
And even if we count Black Gate, that's still only three games out of a dozen. The first five games didn't have anything like that.

[Anonymous No.8171572]

>>8171494
>There was no real option to make money in 7 aside from selling mutton.
Are you shitting me? So you didn't really play it.

[Anonymous No.8171619]

A chat bot can "read" an FAQ and convincingly regurgitate factoids but it can't yet convince a human that it's actually had a real experience.

We have a long way to go.

[Anonymous No.8171641]

What’s the best game to start with?

[Anonymous No.8171647]

>>8163795
>>8164129
>>8164168

Although I am a big fan of both V and VII, I have to agree. A remake with actual animation and a perspective tweak would benefit the game greatly.

[Anonymous No.8171741]

>>8171572
You can't even sell normal items you find.

[Anonymous No.8171749]

>>8171641
Start with 1 or 4.

[Anonymous No.8171814]

>>8171619
Some people just can't accept that Ultima VII is not the holy grail they take it to be.
The release was rushed and the new engine/gameplay was garbage.

[Anonymous No.8171845]

>>8171749
Thanks Anon. Gonna grab the 1-3 comp on gog

[Anonymous No.8171885]

>>8163795
Damn that cow thicc

[Anonymous No.8172089]

>>8171741
You can find gold nuggets and sell them to the mint.

[Anonymous No.8174185]

just bakign my breasd :)

[Anonymous No.8174569]

>>8171814
I'd rather take the "dumbed down" VII engine over the clunky VI engine.

[Anonymous No.8174779]

>>8174569
nuvie fixed most of the shortcomings of the VI engine.
exult can't do the same for VII.

[Anonymous No.8174913]

VI fags confuse streamlining with dumbing down. VII is streamlined, not dumbed down.
There's interactivity in VII that's not present in VI, and the characters, story, and world are at their richest point.
I'm a huge turn based fag, but mediocre turn based combat can be a real slog. VII is honest about the fact that combat had been a weak point of the series, so they made it as fast and simple as possible.
Sure it's annoying when one of your characters dies because you lacked control over them, but that doesn't happen often if you come to battle prepared. In fact, you can avoid combat entirely until your party is almost unstoppable.

VI is the red headed step child of the series. An awkward and clunky stepping stone between V and VII. I understand why it's some people's favorite, but in all respects VII is a more well realized game.

[Anonymous No.8174992]

You have no idea how hard it was to convince my parents to buy me a game with that box.
(didn't get it in the end, but I got the CD version a year later)

[Anonymous No.8175051]

>>8174913
Turn based combat is a lot faster than real time. In VII you can spent minutes watching your party chase after enemies or do complete bullshit.
VII removed or reduced a lot of parts that provided a challenge in the previous games, it's definitely dumbed down. It's an awkward mix between an adventure game and RPGs that doesn't handle either part very well. Martian Dreams did that far better.
VII is an example of style over substance. It has stuff that looks interesting on first glance but once you delve deeper it falls apart.
The plot is good and having NPCs express themselves was fine but the world was best handled in V.

[Anonymous No.8176180]

>>8175051
You can go full turn based in UVII.

[Anonymous No.8176310]

>>8162973
yep
zoomies JUST DON'T KNOW