"Innovative" games that weren't

[Anonymous No.8157037]

There are many classic console games from late 80s to early 2000s that absolutely deserve the praise and classic status they get, with no alternatives on PC.
But there exists a certain subset of console games regarded as "classics" or "innovative", that were mediocre even at the time, largely being poor imitations of existing PC classics. I don't really get why they are praised. Is it ignorance or nostalgia fueled historical revisionism by American millennials? I blame 2008-2015 youtubers. Examples:

Legend of Zelda 1. basically dumbed down Ultima, and utterly unimpressive considering Ultima 4 came out the previous year. For some reason Gen X idiots keep saying how it was "innovative", or even go as far as saying it invented open world RPGs. That annoys me. It's an Ultima clone end of discussion.

Final Fantasy and similar """"RPGs"""", all of them. Even as a kid I thought they were boring. I just don't get it. Despite being "tactical", there's zero actual tactics involved. There isn't even a map grid. Just pick an attack and pick an enemy. And the genre failed to evolve for the next 20 years. King's Bounty 1990 had more meat to the gameplay, and the genres it inspired actually evolved. For some reason japs took the worst from old PC RPGs and ran with it.

The early Resident Evil games. I don't get how you can take inspiration from Alone in the Dark, a game 4 years older, and make it almost as janky and awkward. Bad controls, fixed camera, dumb puzzles, and it's not even scary. "The bad controls make it scarier". Yeah, ok. Also, the devs vehemently denying the influence of AitD is pretty scummy.

Goldeneye 007. I don't see why being able to make a barely playable FPS on consoles is deserving of praise. It's an ugly shooter with horrendous performance and controls, and the fact that it was on hardware that wasn't suitable for the genre is not an excuse. You don't see PC people argue that old acclaim era PC platformers were good, because they know MegaMan existed.

[Anonymous No.8157047]

>>8157037
You had to be there.

[Anonymous No.8157054]

They’re innovative in that they are actually fun to play unlike those other games you mentioned.

[Anonymous No.8157079]

>>8157054
Nobody thinks goldeneye 007 is fun. Not even the fans of the game.

FF games are the boringest shit imaginable with braindead combat. People only like them for the story, and the games would've been better served as visual novels. You have to be either lying or braindead to think the combat in console """"tactical""" RPGs is fun.

Zelda is fun though. It's the kind of japanese mass market zero substance game that tries to maximize the bing bang wahoo factor with not much substance behind it. Japan is notorious for taking concepts from western PC games and "streamlining' them, aka dumbing it down so even IQ89 retards can play it.
Just look at BoTW. Empty open world tower activation simulator 5 years too late to the market, with HL2 physics puzzles, but worse.

[Anonymous No.8157086]

>>8157037
>Ultima 1-5
>PC classics
IBM PC was the worst computer to play those on at the time of their release.
Zelda 1 is an action/adventure game with almost no RPG elements. Ultima is an RPG, and Ultima 4 is a really slow RPG because you need to move 8 guys around. Nobody really gives a shit about anything in early Ultima games besides the adventure game elements in 4 and 5. Also Zelda 1 has automap, as opposed to making D&D nerdmaps on graph paper to solve a boring 3d maze.

[Anonymous No.8157105]

>>8157086
>Nobody really gives a shit about anything in early Ultima games besides the adventure game elements in 4 and 5
Ultima 4 attempts to develop its own in-game philosophy and tried to put theology into gameplay mechanics. A clumsy attempt, but laudable.

Zelda is just "haha evil pig man want conquer world" pop culture trash.

[Anonymous No.8157109]

>>8157079
FF isn't tactical, anon. Go play a JRPG that actually has difficulty like Etrian Odyssey.

[Anonymous No.8157112]

>>8157037
Zelda is a dumbed down Dragon Slayer. Falcom Japanese home computer RPGs were there from the start.

Final Fantasy was directly inspired by Dragon Quest, which was inspired by a plethora of Japanese computer games as well as Ultima and WIzardry. But certainly not King's Bounty.

Resident Evil was miles better than Alone in the Dark. It's like saying, man, why did iPhone get the credit when Sony made tablets before. The answer is, earlier attempts weren't good enough.

No FPS on PC had single-couch four player simultaneous co-op, whichw as GoldenEye's main selling point.

What an absolute total fucking ginoramus you are, dearest OP.

[Anonymous No.8157113]

Why are fans of these old, dry CRPG games so pretentious?

[Anonymous No.8157120]

Comparing Goldeneye to idsoft games is retarded.

>>8156381

[Anonymous No.8157126]

>>8157113
Actually, people making those console games were total fans of those PC games, except OP gets the inspirations completely fucking wrong. He also clearly isn't even aware of Japan's own early CRPGs which were, of course, tremendously influential on Japanese developers.

[Anonymous No.8157128]

>>8157112
>Zelda is a dumbed down Dragon Slayer. Falcom Japanese home computer RPGs were there from the start.
Did a jap tell you that? Japs have a notorious inferiority complex and hate admitting that they rip-off western media all the time. Ultima was absolutely an influence on zelda.
>Final Fantasy was directly inspired by Dragon Quest, which was inspired by a plethora of Japanese computer games as well as Ultima and WIzardry. But certainly not King's Bounty.
Sure, but my argument in that case wasn't lineage, but competence. FF had close to 40 years of being a "tactical" game with no tactics, while King's Bounty gave us HoMM 3.
>Resident Evil was miles better than Alone in the Dark.
I agree. It was still a clumsy piece of shit with bad controls, even at the time.
>No FPS on PC had single-couch four player simultaneous co-op, whichw as GoldenEye's main selling point.
Not being able to afford hardware and not having networking capabilities is not a selling point.

[Anonymous No.8157130]

Most of the console games are more fun to play and hold up better.

[Anonymous No.8157132]

>>8157126
They should have kept taking ideas from western RPGs, because their role playing games stagnated immediately and stayed the same for 20 years.

[Anonymous No.8157137]

>>8157037
Was the first Zelda even the first game with a save/load feature?

[Anonymous No.8157138]

>>8157137
On consoles, yes I think it was.

[Anonymous No.8157142]

>>8157137
I think save/loads were a thing on PC ever since permanent storage was invented. Like tapes and shit. Consoles didn't have that, so putting a rom chip and a battery on a cartridge was considered innovation.

[Anonymous No.8157143]

>>8157128
Just play a fucking Drasle game from the early 80s before attempting tracing inspirations of the Zelda series.

Final Fantasy is not a stragety game series. Complexity was never a goal.

Resident Evil 1 is a very tense experience by one of the best directors in gaming. Just play it.

It may be hard to imagine, but most people actually didn't have an internet connection back in the 90s. No, single-coach coop was the only way to play multiplayer for 99% of people.

[Anonymous No.8157148]

>>8157037
>It's an Ultima clone end of discussion.
What the fuck are you talking about? It's not turnbased, all the fighting is realtime.

>Final Fantasy and similar """"RPGs"""", all of them
Most of those are derived from the Japs having a surreal fixation with the original Wizardry games. Chrono Trigger I would say is good for how different party members have different equipment and abilities, and there's spells/techniques which two or even all three party members can do, making certain certain characters better matches with each other. Then you had certain kinds of encounters (typically bosses) where you would have to actually prioritize targets for a good, or even at all viable outcome.
It also had a lot of branching paths and multiple endings, giving a game (which isn't actually too long) some additional replay value.
Is it actually innovative? No, not really, but I'd say it's a good example of you do a JRPG without making it an all braindead numbers game.

[Anonymous No.8157153]

>>8157132
Actually, JRPGs changed damatically in mid-90s (Chrono Trigger has almost nothing in common with Final Fantasy I) and then even more dramatically around 2010 when they pretty much reverted back into action games, just like their 1982-1985 roots. Ultimately the genre started with Falcom action/rpgs, went through the Dragon Quest phase, then the Squaresoft movie-game phase, and then into the action/rpg phase.

The genre is one of the fastest to evolve, contrary to popular belief. For example, platformers have barely changed between 1996 and 2016, but look at the difference between Final Fantasy V and XV

[Anonymous No.8157159]

>>8157105
at least Square tried to have some depth/content/a moral message

[Anonymous No.8157171]

>>8157137
>first game
I'm not even 100% sure if it's even the first Nintendo console game with saves. Don't forget that Zelda 1 was released on the Famicom Disc System originally. Metroid 1 came out only a few months after Zelda 1, and in Japan it also had save game because it was on the Disc System. As far as I know, there could be a Nintendo game with saves that is older.

[Anonymous No.8157173]

>>8157143
>Final Fantasy is not a stragety game series. Complexity was never a goal.
Then why have the boring-ass pseudo-tactical combat system?
And it's not even just final fantasy, early phantasy stars were boring pieces of shit, too.
>It may be hard to imagine, but most people actually didn't have an internet connection back in the 90s
LAN parties were a thing. I didn't have internet until mid 2000s, but I still played a lot of multiplayer through LAN. Feels good not growing up poor.

>>8157148
I'm more interested in the origins of those games' undue praise as innovators. I think it's a lower middle class american millenial thing, they could only afford one device and have zero perspective on the history of video games as a whole.

[Anonymous No.8157180]

>>8157153
Is it fair to call them the same genre at that point?
I feel like "JRPG" is an umbrella term that doesn't really signify anything other than country of origin. Same as "anime".

[Anonymous No.8157184]

>>8157159
Ultima 4 & 5 aren't notable for storyfag philosophy shit or whatever he's talking about. 4 has a morality system with 8 virtues that can be affected by various actions in the game world. 5 has a more simplified version of that and a living open world where npcs have their own daily schedules.
Most games with morality systems don't even reach the complexity of Ultima 5's, you choose to be good or evil at specified parts. I don't think an AAA title had a morality system comparable to it until Red Dead Redemption 2 in 2018.

[Anonymous No.8157185]

>Goldeneye 007. I don't see why being able to make a barely playable FPS on consoles is deserving of praise. It's an ugly shooter with horrendous performance and controls
Looked great for the time, but "bad controls?" Do you have mutant hands or something? There's a dozen different control schemes, even one which lets you use two controllers at once, and the game has an auto-aim feature on by default. There was certainly slowdown at times, but seldom enough to inhibit the gameplay.

What makes Goldeneye fun is that it puts on a vague air of realism, but it's still a fast game where you can dual wield machineguns, grenade launchers, lasers, etc. You have things like shooting through doors and objects, silenced weapons and enemies picking up on sounds directionally, damage depending on where on the body you hit, including shooting a grenade someone is holding, to name some. There's also that it's different from the most traditional FPS of the time, where you can't always shoot everything that moves, and you have more abstract objectives at times, mission objectives also scaling with difficulty levels.
On speed, the game actually timed you for your missions, as well as scoring you for accuracy. For the timing, you could unlock various different cheat codes by beating levels at certain times and difficulty levels, even unlocking secret levels which themselves had unlockables.

Was Goldeneye a revolutionary game? I couldn't really say, and I don't care if it is or not, but it's a good game which was exclusive to console, there wasn't anything like it on PC, and wouldn't be for some time. That it was also based on a cool action movie, and would (with varying degrees of accuracy) base levels and events on scenes from that movie, was a big draw at the time.

[Anonymous No.8157187]

>>8157185
It's garbage like non old school fps.

[Anonymous No.8157189]

>>8157173
No, LAN parties were not a thing in the 90s. It's a 2000s thing. To play online, you mostly had to have a job at something like MIT. It was not something kids could do at all. Golden Eye, on the other hand, allowed any child to play a multiplayer FPS, which was a very fresh experience.

The style of JRPG you describe didn't linger for long - bu 1997 combat was easy and unlosable and the genre entered its movie-game phase. You're not required to like it - I don't. Just get your video game history fucking straight before having opinions on it.

>>8157180
There's a very clear and direct line of evolution there, but, yeah, RPGs from different eras have little in common. I would say they are related the way you and the whale are related: both are still mammals with a common ancestor.

[Anonymous No.8157195]

>>8157185
>Was Goldeneye a revolutionary game?
Yes.
>>8157120

[Anonymous No.8157206]

>>8157189
Lan parties were a thing in the fucking 90s. We had lans for doom, we played quake, og counterstrike. Come on man. This was all from 95 to 00 when I graduated high school. You weren't there.

[Anonymous No.8157208]

Thank god for anonymity, amirite, OP?

[Anonymous No.8157212]

>>8157206
>Lan parties were a thing in the fucking 90s. We had lans for doom, we played quake, og counterstrike
Your post contains the explanation. See? Read it. Read and you will see why you're wrong. Yeah, you had Counter-Strike LAN parties. Exactly.

[Anonymous No.8157214]

>>8157079
>Nobody thinks goldeneye 007 is fun
someone didnt have any friends

[Anonymous No.8157217]

>>8157212
Me. Kids from the high school across town, people at college, at work. There were lan parties every where. We were playing SC. I just...why did you write all that nonsense?

[Anonymous No.8157218]

>>8157109
And nobody hardcore into RPGs denies the importance that wizardry and Ultima had to the Japanese. Half of the games from the 80s are clones or directly follow the more famous tropes. Hell, Japan still makes not only wiz clones but even new wiz games, despite sirtech being long dead.

>>8157137
Are you talking cart-based or disk-based? Plenty of disk-based games had saving. Don't forget Zelda was an FDS game first.

Actually, I would guess that at the very least, it's beaten out by Dragonstomper on Atari.

>>8157159
Mate you're not really suggesting that Ultima 4 didn't have a morality message, are you

>>8157180
This is true. I get a good kick out of calling anime "japan cartoons", you can see the wannaboos get triggered in real time at the sound of it.

OP ain't recognizing that ultimately, the games which are widely distributed and popular are the games that influence the most. That may mean that underwhelming games get the nod, but it's still true. Not wrong too to blame Americans, as they're the most numerous and vocal Anglos on the net. Still, the arguments being presented for each game are rather weak. It's also fair to point out that being innovative does not inherently mean being good.

[Anonymous No.8157219]

>Goldeneye
>Not revolutionary
You're retarded OP. Sorry.

[Anonymous No.8157221]

>>8157037
> Bad controls, fixed camera, dumb puzzles, and it's not even scary
All you had to say was “I’m too bad at vidya gaems to play Resident Evil competently”.
Shit taste/10, alone in the dark is hokey trash compared to RE, which is saying something.

[Anonymous No.8157227]

>>8157217
Yes, yes, you played Counter-Strike as well as Quake, SC etc at the LAN parties. Do you understand now? Use your fucking brain to pinpoint the time fucking period when LAN parties became mother fucking common.

[Anonymous No.8157229]

So much misinformation itt lmao

[Anonymous No.8157236]

>>8157217
Who can say? The "famous people playing games" thread (recently up or recently dead, I dunno /vr/ moves too fast anymore for me to keep tabs on everything) shows photos of the exact activity, spurs players doing SC LAN on the plane home from winning the NBA Championship. That mate just seems to be totally lost.

[Anonymous No.8157238]

>>8157227
They became fucking common in the 90s with quake you fucking dilettante. Good fucking lord you zoomer faggot know nothing know it all. Read some bespoke pc magazines from that era. Read how much they talk about lans. You are wrong. Please leave the thread now.

[Anonymous No.8157239]

>>8157208
Yes. I made a thread a few months back with a polite request for information and discussion on western and japanese game cross-pollination, but it was completely ignored.

So I went back to my old tactic of posting provocative dunning kruger nonsense to get heavily invested people to correct my out of annoyance. Works every time.

[Anonymous No.8157240]

>>8157236
Counter-Strike came out in 1999. As I said, he misremembers the 2000s as the 90s.

[Anonymous No.8157243]

>>8157239
>I was only pretending to be retarded!

[Anonymous No.8157246]

>>8157112
>Final Fantasy was directly inspired by Dragon Quest
Dungeons and Dragons actually, it's a greatly simplified take on it.

[Anonymous No.8157249]

>>8157240
No, I really don't. You're an autistic loser who can't reconcile reality with whatever you've cooked up in your head. Please keep being wrong. I love autists like you.

[Anonymous No.8157250]

>>8157243
Pretending to be retarded does not exclude the possibility of me being genuinely retarded, so I don't get your point.
Maybe I was doing both.

[Anonymous No.8157259]

>>8157243
Hey, as long as it works.

[Anonymous No.8157260]

>>8157249
Cry all you like, but I'm using your own post to reliably date your own childhood experience. It's something you should be able to do yourself, but you sound like a very uncritical kinda thinker to begin with.

[Anonymous No.8157264]

The market's adoption of a game is also a determining factor in gaming innovation.

It barely matters what a game brought to the innovation table if nobody played the game. This isn't just about marketing time/money issues either, a LOT of games that introduce innovative concepts are shit outside of the innovation. First isn't always best.

[Anonymous No.8157272]

I would say more kids had access to consoles than gaming-capable PCs during those times.

My parents had the cheapest store bought PC possible, but I had FFIII (VI). I’m sure if I had more exposure to PC games at the time I might agree with you though.

[Anonymous No.8157273]

>>8157246
D&D was a direct inspiration for Wizardry and Ultima but not Final Fantasy. FF came from a mix of Japanese home console and home computer RPGs. The Vancian spellcasting system came from Wizardry rather than D&D.

[Anonymous No.8157275]

>>8157264
Good point.
But why don't people give due credit, and admit the lineage.

The times after BotW release made me super butthurt. It's like the nintendo fanbase lives in its own tiny bubble and has no idea about anything outside their console's library.

[Anonymous No.8157283]

>>8157275
People absolutely give due credit and painstakingly research the lineage. We can occcasionally trace a whole bunch of mechanics in a Final Fantasy game to obscure Avalon Hill wargames from the 1960s.

[Anonymous No.8157290]

>>8157037
Guys, he's trolling. Just ignore him.

[Anonymous No.8157295]

>>8157173
>Then why have the boring-ass pseudo-tactical combat system?
it's an abstraction of a dungeons and dragons campaign. developers in the 80s were very interested in trying to simulate tabletop RPGs, both because they are dumb nerds and because a computer can do random number checks and basic math infinitely faster than people
the process was slow and awkward though. you run into problems right away: how can you role play by yourself? how is this combat fun when you're doing it by yourself with no dice? what if the player wants to do something that the programmer didn't intend?
and so things changed over the years. shin megami tensei games for example has excellent turn-based combat and is good about letting the player make allegiances and alter the world. square decided to go in the opposite direction and have shit combat and role-playing with grand, cinematic storytelling and world-class presentation

tl;dr it's the JRPG equivalent of cave paintings

[Anonymous No.8157298]

>>8157283
Didn't the RE producer go to comical length to avoid admitting the obvious alone in the dark influence.

[Anonymous No.8157302]

>>8157260
You're a vapid little person who only has his autism to help him along. You've figured nothing out and your entirely wrong about everything you've written itt. Your idea of your own intellect is a massive ploy to redirect people from your real world insecurities. I have the measure of you now. I've met and dismantled your kind countless times on the net over the last 30 years. You remind me of a few people from the glory days of SA forums and the insertcredit/selectbutton forums. Entirely contrived.

[Anonymous No.8157307]

Shitposting, the thread

[Anonymous No.8157308]

>>8157298
What producer? The great director Shinji Mikami always wears his inspirations on the sleeve.

[Anonymous No.8157320]

>>8157295
Yeah, I always thought that video games trying to emulate table top RPG combat systems was a doomed idea.

TTRPG combat is not actually fun, not because of the mechanics. Especially in old school pnp games, dice were treated more like tools for the GM to add variance to the game, rather than actual "mechanics".

I honestly dislike how later editions of DnD turned into video game simulators.

[Anonymous No.8157323]

>>8157302
One thing I'm right about is when and what you played at those LAN parties. I knew full well you were talking about CS LAN parties even before you explicitly mentioned them. Golden Eye was a 1997 game, though, which made single-couch co-op so important.

[Anonymous No.8157329]

>>8157273
FF1 actually run afoul of a few copyright issues relating to D&D (Mind Flayers, Beholders, etc)

[Anonymous No.8157339]

>>8157329
Lots of Japanese games int he 80s had this problem because copyright law in Japan was, and still is, much more lax than in the US.

[Anonymous No.8157352]

Anyone who says Zelda is "dumbed down" compared to old shitty CRPGs is a poser who has never actually played those games.

[Anonymous No.8157353]

>>8157308
Afaik capcom forbade infogrames from mentioning alone in the dark for some reason.
It's only way later that Shinji Mikami publically admitted the influence of alone in the dark.

But this might be bullshit, I just heard this somewhere.

[Anonymous No.8157360]

>>8157339
>more lax
Japanese copyright law doesn't even recognize fair use.

[Anonymous No.8157367]

>>8157353
I've never heard of it, but it sounds plausible. I've never heard of Mikami denying this, though. He was actually remaking Sweet Home rather than Alone in the Dark anyway, though. Besides, 3d over pre-rendered 2d with tank controls was not exactly unique to AitD either.

AitD is an influence, but not the only and probably not even the main. And of course RE1 is incomparably better made all around.

[Anonymous No.8157374]

>>8157360
That's because Japanese copyright law allows you to put a Beholder in your game, period. Or name your characters after famous rock songs. Etc. etc. etc. It is notoriously lax.

[Anonymous No.8157385]

>>8157109
>grind games are difficult
You mean stupid.

[Anonymous No.8157389]

>>8157320
>TTRPG combat is not actually fun, not because of the mechanics.
yeah i agree. it's there to give the group a common goal; it's not an inherently fun game. you can't just copy that into a single-player game and expect it to work

[Anonymous No.8157407]

>>8157037
if you werent such a whiney bitch people would like you irl

[Anonymous No.8157412]

>"my contrarian take on why people who talk about XYZ being good are stupid and you should all read my blog" thread #91648

[Anonymous No.8157418]

>>8157374
It's more "nobody complains", some companies are ridiculously protective of their IPs, and some are more "Send me a zip file every week".

[Anonymous No.8157428]

>>8157418
Nah, you just can't go even after something like JoJo for using lots of song and band names in Japan, let alone a mention of some random monster.

Also, do remember what 80s TSR was like. Suing Square and Nintendo about D&D was nothing. They were suing Gary Gygax, man.

[Anonymous No.8157451]

>japes totally give credit for their influences
>open a japanese video essays about open world games
>first thing on screen is zelda
Yeah, fuck japs.

Japs deny stealing western ideas even more than they deny their war crimes.

[Anonymous No.8157459]

>>8157451
Fucking based. Western kusoge is irrelevant.

[Anonymous No.8157461]

>>8157451
That's because Western games are a cesspool that only "influences" itself, kiddo.

[Anonymous No.8157475]

>>8157173
>I'm more interested in the origins of those games' undue praise as innovators.
Many things which get lots of critical acclaim in general often get labeled innovative, even though all they actually do is using pre-existing and well established concepts, just putting executing it all with high competence.

Sometimes a thing get called innovative, not because its ideas are necessarily fresh, but they're the first one to do the idea well.

[Anonymous No.8157478]

>>8157461
Japanese games are literally just toys, and are designed like toys.
There's no systematic design, just "hurr durr learn this stupid gimmick mechanic and play the way we intended you to, here's a 30 minute tutorial"

[Anonymous No.8157486]

>>8157478
Western "games" are toys, you mean. Minecraft, GTA and other playsets for talented juniors. Japanese games are actual games with rules and win/fail states and everything.

[Anonymous No.8157490]

>>8157478
No western game with "systematic design" sensibilities has remotely good gameplay.

[Anonymous No.8157494]

>>8157478
>Japanese games are literally just toys, and are designed like toys.
based japan, games should be fun like toys whether they have complex mechanics or not

[Anonymous No.8157496]

>>8157478
You know what? I’d rather them be toymakers than dweeby computer nerds who just want to show off.

[Anonymous No.8157509]

>>8157486
>i need a computer to tell me whether I did things right or wrong
Absolute cuck mentality.

[Anonymous No.8157518]

>>8157509
Nobody actually enjoys playing DF. It serves as an epic greentext generator.

[Anonymous No.8157521]

>>8157128
>affordability is not a selling point
???

[Anonymous No.8157535]

>>8157521
Poorfag cope

[Anonymous No.8157554]

>>8157509
See? You don't actually comprehend the difference between a game and a playset.

[Anonymous No.8157564]

>>8157478
Aren't there more western games designed like toys, games that aim for "you can do ANYTHING" come from western designers more often. Will Wright describes his own games as "software toys". But I think you mean
>my boring-ass dungeon crawler CRPG is for very mature and big brained individuals such as myself, you wouldn't get it

[Anonymous No.8157573]

>>8157128
>Not being able to afford hardware and not having networking capabilities is not a selling point.
>be le pc master race anon
>learning my times tables
>kids are talking about how much fun they have playing goldeneye
>"pssh, yeah goldeneye is fine. if you're still in diapers"
>mix of shock, disgust and rage
>invite them over to play quake
>intend to wow them with the incredible graphics environments
>they sit on the fucking floor on the other side of the room because there's no couch at the computer desk
>"uh, okay anon this is cool. can we all play together now?"
>scoff in disgust
>"sure, simply install quake world on your windows 98 computer and connect to my ip address so we can get fragging"
>none of them have quake
>one kid has an apple, another doesn't even have a computer
>"sigh, fricking poorfriends"
>they all buy new computers
>new monitors
>all buy quake
>lug all this shit to my house
>there's nowhere to put it all
>all the spaghetti spills out of my pockets
>run away shitting myself

[Anonymous No.8157574]

>>8157564
>my boring-ass dungeon crawler CRPG is for very mature and big brained individuals such as myself, you wouldn't get it
#filtered

[Anonymous No.8157575]

>MUH ULTIMA
why are bongs like this

[Anonymous No.8157597]

>>8157575
>Ultima
>British game
Excuse me?

[Anonymous No.8157605]

>>8157597
It's very british

[Anonymous No.8157658]

>>8157037
Haha, excellent bait, OP! Just a couple of pointers.

Legend of Zelda doesn't really have a close western analogue -- Nintendo was content stealing from other Japanese games, namely Hydlide.

Now I see what you're actually going for with the RPGs argument, but you're way off base. First of all, you have to acknowledge that the history of the genre is based on trying to bring D&D to the computer, which began with games on PLATO, such as Oubliette, which, coincidentally, has very much in common with the original Wizardry. Less generous folk would say that Woodhead and Greenberg just fucking stole everything from Oubliette and just ported it from mainframe to Apple II, but they did add the thing that became a staple of the genre: creating and managing a party of adventurers instead of just controlling a single person.

It's not a secret that Dragon Quest was 'inspired' by Wizardry and Ultima. So the lineage sort of goes D&D>Oubliette>Wizardry>Dragon Quest>Final Fantasy.

I'm extremely sorry Resident Evil didn't sufficiently improve the formula of Alone in the Dark for your tastes. You kind of forgot that Alone in Dark failed to improve the formula with its own two sequels, but we all have flaws, right?

Although Goldeneye is straight up garbage compared to the PC shooters of the time, that's true.

>>8157339
>>8157360
It was the 80s. Trying to sue somebody across the ocean where the copyright law is different was not worth it. Sure, TSR could've tried to sue Nintendo, who published Final Fantasy in the US. But remember, the last time an American movie studio took Nintendo to court, the Americans lost.

The thing is also really not worth going to court over because using a thing that looks like a beholder isn't that far off from using the Tolkien definition of "elves".

[Anonymous No.8157659]

>>8157564
You have your definitions mixed up.
Toys are static and have only one mode of interaction. You play them as the designer intended. Like an action figure, or mechanical contraption.

Games are open ended rule sets where there's no set "method" of playing as long as they're within the rules of the game.

[Anonymous No.8157690]

>>8157037
Zelda is nothing like Ultima

[Anonymous No.8157719]

>>8157659
>You have your definitions mixed up.
those were metaphors and similes. defintion is irrelevant, the point is similarity.
a cowboy toy and the sims are similar in that it's equally valid to use it in the intended way (playing with other western themed toys/ maximizing your characters stats) as it is to play in a way of your choosing (fighting ninjas/ mass murder)
solitaire and mario are similar in that it is simply wrong to make a move that does not get you closer to winning the game

[Anonymous No.8157734]

>>8157719
You're wrong.

[Anonymous No.8157820]

Zelda did take from Ultima. Not as much as Dragon Quest, but it still did. It's not a coincidence that the player-character "Link" and "Avatar" share a self-insert title that has practically an identical meaning. Ultima is the first open-world action RPG.

[Anonymous No.8157938]

Also, adventure games are way superior to visual novels.

[Anonymous No.8158081]

>>8157659
No. A toy is an interactive object with no rules or ways to win or lose, whereas a game is a ruleset first and foremost. For example, a ball is a toy, while soccer is a game.

[Anonymous No.8158087]

>>8157047
Goldeneye was fun on launch but holy shit did it become dated the moment you played Half life or Quake 3.

[Anonymous No.8158089]

>>8157938
Visual novels are digital books, not games. They have nothing in common with adventure games or any games at all. Or did you mean actual Japanese adventure games like Danganronpa?

[Anonymous No.8158091]

>>8157037
>end of discussion.
Yeah, you're not worth any measure of reasonable discussion. Those not posting here are clearly above you, but I'm nice enough to let you know.

[Anonymous No.8158105]

>>8158087
Those aren't really the same thing. Goldeneye is a game about being a secret agent, sneaking around, completing mission objectives, taking out security cameras. That's the entire feeling the game is trying to evoke. If you said it felt dated by the time Deus Ex and Hitman came out, you might have a point.

[Anonymous No.8158115]

>>8158105
There's a difference between what something tries to be, and what it is.
Good stealth games punish you for not being stealthy. In reality the game can be treated like a regular shooter.

Kinda like how half-life tried to be a slow tactical shooter, but was just quake instead.

[Anonymous No.8158139]

>>8158115
It's not a pure stealth game, but it is an action game that has a heavy stealth element, and it definitely pushes you to play that way. Some of those levels get really hectic once alarms get triggered.

[Anonymous No.8158286]

>>8157079
007 is fuck as fuck, and I never even played it until after the 360 came out. You're just a retard

[Anonymous No.8158336]

>>8157112
>Zelda is a dumbed down Dragon Slayer. Falcom Japanese home computer RPGs were there from the start.
Zelda is Dragon Slayer but actually playable and interesting. Nintendo looked at the garbage Falcom was producing and knew they could make something people would actually like.

[Anonymous No.8158343]

>>8158286
idk if it is fuck as fuck, i think it's just fuck personally

[Anonymous No.8158403]

>>8156381
I just want to play Goldeneye with performance above a powerpoint presentation. You don't even have to fix the shit controls if you don't want to make Bond play like a supersoldier; Perfect Dark on Rare Replay proved that.

[Anonymous No.8158413]

>>8158105
>>8158115
GoldenEye isn't Quake and it isn't purely tactical/stealth either. It's its own sub-genre that combines brutal action and mission objectives. I think GoldenEye holds up. I re-played it only a few months ago. The combat is satisfying and varied. The missions are fun and interesting. I don't think it's really accurate to compare GoldenEye to Deus Ex or Hitman either, since those games aren't exactly the same.

[Anonymous No.8158421]

>>8157037
OP you're really missing the point of like all of these. This thread is just making like 6 bait threads at once for maximum (you)s

[Anonymous No.8158425]

>>8157137
NES Hydlide came out a year or so earlier and had save/load using passwords. Afaik the US release of Zelda was the first console game with battery back-up.

[Anonymous No.8158475]

>>8157212
I checked my diary, we were doing LAN parties as early as 1995.

[Anonymous No.8158486]

>>8158403
There's emulator fixes for that.

[Anonymous No.8158494]

>>8157037
Basically every popular N64 game falls in this category except smash bros

As a PC gamer every single one was unimpressive

[Anonymous No.8158550]

>>8157302

Can you shove your head deeper inside your own anus?

[Anonymous No.8158624]

>>8157120
How about idsoft games ON the N64? Why were they so much better?

[Anonymous No.8158732]

>>8158425
Both Famicom and NES releases of Zelda predate Hydyle on the same console.

[Anonymous No.8158763]

>>8157037
>Legend of Zelda 1
Zelda was rather inspired by Hydlide, which, despite its infamy in the west, was a major milestone for action RPGs.
The first Zelda itself was not an RPG, but a bird's eye action game that improved the mechanics so much that it completely redefined the standards of the genre.
Just compare it to Adventure on the Atari and the aforementioned Hydlide to see how huge the leap in quality was.
>Final Fantasy and similar """"RPGs""""
Comparing traditional JRPGs, which took influence from computer dungeon crawlers, to computer strategy games is just plain disingenuous.
The Final Fantasy series was relatively varied compared to many of the older dungeon crawlers, and it added a cinematic edge that most games lacked at the time.
Some games, such as the Persona 2 duology, were insanely complex and required constant tactical shifts, so to say those games didn't have strategy is just wrong.
I'd love to hear the OP's opinion on Eastern strategy games like the Ogre series, but given the opinion expressed in the post, he may not be familiar with that genre at all.
>Resident Evil
If you were to compare Resident Evil to Bioforge (which has been unfairly forgotten), I would agree.
But compared to Alone in the Dark, it was a masterpiece in terms of scenery, composition, and lighting.
>Goldeneye 007
Goldeneye 007 is important because it helped redefine how a first-person game can work on a console (with a controller).
Personally, I think PowerSlave did a better job, but I understand why Goldeneye evokes such strong nostalgic feelings among many oldfags.

[Anonymous No.8159545]

This thread kind of makes me hyper aware of the fact that growing up in eastern europe, I completely missed out on N64 era and up to PS3, since PCs were way more common.

I kinda want to brush up on my console game history but fuck, the backlog is huge and authentic hardware is even more expensive. Never really got the appeal of nintendo games though. They're very... product-ey, if that makes sense.

[Anonymous No.8159548]

>>8158732
But in general it was Hydlide that was released, on the MSX.

[Anonymous No.8159589]

>>8159548
Which has no bearing on NES Hydlyde