/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.8060606]

Is GoldToDark a good mod if I only have Thief Gold and want to play The Dark Project?

[Anonymous No.8060634]

>>8060606
don't understand.
thief gold has all the stuff that dark project has.

[Anonymous No.8060648]

>>8060634
But TDP doesn't have everything Gold has. I'm just wondering if it's a good way of playing that version. I don't know if that mod literally makes the game TDP or if it's some sloppy work that deletes the levels.

[Anonymous No.8060656]

Download the TDP version of Thief and plop NewDark in the directory.

[Anonymous No.8060665]

>>8060606
GoldtoDark does not give you the Dark Project maps, it just dumps some craymen in the lost city without their correct scripts and pathfinding routines and doesn't even affect the other maps that Gold changed. Idiots keep recommending it when it is in fact, shit.

[Anonymous No.8060685]

>>8060665
Thanks, that's the answer I was looking for.

[Anonymous No.8060810]

Im playing thief for the first time. I wish with at the end of missions you would actually have to escape. Does this change? I've only done two of the missions so far. Stealing the septer and breaking the guy out of jail.

[Anonymous No.8060821]

>>8060810
You have to escape on higher difficulties, try playing on Hard or Expert.

[Anonymous No.8060885]

>>8060810
Restart and play on expert. It adds objectives and you actually have to make it back out of the level. Much more fun.

[Anonymous No.8060948]

>>8060821
>>8060885
Oh thanks I'll do that rn. What does expert make harder? How does it change from normal?

[Anonymous No.8060985]

>>8060948
It tells you in the mission briefing. The general things are that you can’t kill any humans and you have to collect more valuables, which basically just means exploring more of the level. Other than that it’s new mission specific objectives being added. You can cycle through the difficulties before starting the mission and see the exact objective changes.

[Anonymous No.8061005]

>>8060810
>Does this change?
Yes, it does change starting from level 4, even if you keep playing on Normal

[Anonymous No.8061037]

>>8060810
Expert difficulty is what the game was designed for, the lower difficulty levels were added at publisher insistence.

[Anonymous No.8061083]

In addition to what the other anons said, Hard and Expert typically also put more guards in the levels and less equipment to find. And you have less health too.

[Anonymous No.8061104]

>>8060948
>What does expert make harder? How does it change from normal?
Thief's expert mode typically has
>can't kill people
>additional goals
>higher loot goals
>often need to escape a level
Also, bear in mind that loot changes positions depending on difficulty. Loot in a spot in easy difficulty might not be there in normal and expect, and vice-versa.

[Anonymous No.8061182]

>>8060948
I would highly recommend playing on Hard if it's your first time through Thief, at least with Thief 1. There's a handful of levels where the extra objectives/total loot are really cunty on Expert and could cause you a lot of frustration the first time around. Plus part of the learning experience of Thief is being able to potentially kill the guards before you get good enough enough to be able to sneak past them even if they're alerted to your presence.

[Anonymous No.8061232]

this is a mod that mostly restores the lost city map in gold. It completely gets rid of any hint of the mages but it doesn't have the craymen but I don't really think that's a big loss, the flame elementals and Burracks provide enough of a threat to keep you on your toes.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=839934571

[Anonymous No.8061256]

>>8060948
sounds a little insane but don't savescum especially if you're not playing on hard, death = level restart(maybe make an exception for particularly tricky jumps). imo I don't think you can really appreciate the levels just bruteforcing them with quicksaves.

[Anonymous No.8061438]

I started off with the 2014 thief and really liked it and now that I'm playing the first thief I'm sad with how much wasn't in the new thief. All they had to do was just make the new one play the same just look better. Even dishonored wasn't this good. A lot of times it's nostalgia that blind people to say super old games are better but in this case it's true.

[Anonymous No.8061547]

>>8061438
Be sure to play the sequels. Even Thief 3 is better than 4.

[Anonymous No.8062132]

>>8060606
Hey OP are you still there? I just spent the last couple of hours getting The Dark Project working properly. The original Dark Project version is on archive here:
https://archive.org/details/ThiefTheDarkProjectUSA/Box1.jpg

You'll have to extract the cue file into a new folder using PowerISO or something similar. Make sure not to put it in Program Files and don't name it just 'Thief', name it something like 'Thief The Dark Project.'

It's an old windows 98 game so it's not going to install properly on modern systems. What you need to do is find the 'Run' app (just type run into the search bar at the bottom of your screen,) then find the setup file. This is the weird bit - you need to type " -lgntforce" in the adress to get the installer to run on anything that isn't Win98. So for me it was:
D:\games\Thief The Dark Project\setup.exe -lgntforce

Make sure there's a gap between 'setup.exe' and the '-lgntforce'. Now the installer will run properly and then just extract TFix Lite into the 'Thief' folder you've just installed.

So far the only issue I've encountered is that the options menus are slightly misaligned. They still work it's just that the icons are all over the fucking show on some screens. I'll try to work out a fix for it later. The only real issue is the control config screen but there are workarounds by directly editing the 'user.bnd' file. Have fun.

[Anonymous No.8062347]

>>8062132
Hey friend, thanks. The lgntforce method didn't work for me, but all I had to do was copy everything from the "thief" folder that was in the extracted files into the game folder I set up. From there, TFix Lite wasn't working for some reason, it would black screen on the main menu (all I did was copy the files into the install folder, maybe that was the wrong way to install the Lite version?). The only thing that worked was using the main TFix exe instead. Game boots up, FMVs run, and the menu options don't seem to be messed up for me. If I was installing Lite incorrectly somehow, let me know.

[Anonymous No.8062374]

>>8062347
No problem. I also tried installing NewDark directly but ran into issues getting it working. Might try again but so far everything seems to be working fine. TFix Lite still has some minor changes because voodoo47 just can't fucking help himself - I know there's some colored lighting in one area and that even if you don't trigger the alarm in 'Assassins' you still have to escape through the city at the end (in the original game if you didn't trigger the alarm the level would end when you left Ramirez's manor once you'd completed your other goals). Not sure if there's any other changes but it's the best I can get running with my limited technical knowledge.

Anway glad it's working for you. My options menu is still a bit messed up. Tell me if there are any issues with your version.

[Anonymous No.8062584]

>>8062347
Oh shit I actually misread what you said, Full TFix will still change the existing levels to be the Gold versions - yeah. You'll be able to tell it's still Thief Gold by whether or not you see this flaming guy in the Bonehoard.

Yeah it's fucking annoying. I'd try the lgntforce method again. Make sure there's no quote marks and you the 'run' app.

[Anonymous No.8062692]

>>8060948
If you play on expert know that the thieves guild has a key hidden in the most asinine place imaginable. Also the loot requirement on Haunted Cathedral is absolutely retarded and has you picking through trash for items worth 50gp when you need 2k. Other than that it's totally fine. Just keep those 2 things in mind when you get stuck honestly would just use a walkthrough on haunted cathedrals loot it's not fun

[Anonymous No.8062731]

>>8062584
>Full TFix will still change the existing levels to be the Gold versions
But why and how? Aren't the whole slate things to get into the cathedral different in TDP? Do you just never go to the mage towers but magically have the slate when you star rttc?

[Anonymous No.8062749]

>>8062731
Because TFix Full modifies the levels themselves so they're packaged with it. I don't know if it includes missflag.str though, which is the file that determines which missions are actually used in the game. TDP and TG naturally use a different missflag.str.

[Anonymous No.8062754]

>>8062731
It's in the updated mission files. Look just get to the bonehoard and see if the fire guy is there and you'll know. I'd try getting TFix Lite to work again. See if you can install it manually or try the lgntforce trick if that doesn't work.

[Anonymous No.8062764]

>>8062754
Keep in mind -lgntforce ca take between a minute and literal days before it actually launches the frontend, that's how hard it was to install Thief 1 and 2 before they got re-released. If you don't want to use TFix Lite you can also use the latest NewDark release archive, just make sure you install the intrface patch so your options menu isn't all fucked up.

[Anonymous No.8062768]

>>8062754
I looked at the install instructions again for TFix Lite and it said you needed to run the game once beforehand to get the install.cfg file generated. Did that on the TFix install I made and then extracted everything from "thief" again (lgntforce didn't work, again). Installed TFix Lite and it boots up now and I can get in game, but now the options menu is kinda fucked.

Also quick note, the drunk guard in Baffords Manor doesn't have his "hey whats up with the crazy getup?" line, is that Gold only? Garrett doesn't comment on his usefulness either after using his key.

[Anonymous No.8062771]

>>8062768
Yeah. Well, I'm not sure about the 'crazy getup' line but there's a bunch of lines that voodoo added back into the game that were cut but still the game files. Like, "There's a few too many to get by here,"

Clearly it's working though, and yeah I don't have a fix for the options menu yet. No idea what the fucking cause is.

[Anonymous No.8062772]

>>8062768
Grab a NewDark archive (like this one here https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149856)) and install the intrface.crf patch. It's in t2_v127.zip\new_dark.zip\doc\T1.7z\
Read the instructions before you proceed.

>>8062768
>Also quick note, the drunk guard in Baffords Manor doesn't have his "hey whats up with the crazy getup?" line, is that Gold only? Garrett doesn't comment on his usefulness either after using his key.

TFix Full re-introduces some lines that were cut. For example Garrett says "A few too many to try and get by here" at the beginning which I'm fairly sure was put back with TFix Full.

[Anonymous No.8062787]

>>8062771
>>8062772
Now that I think about it, those lines always conflicted with the guards talking. I guess they were cut for a reason? I put the INTRFACE.CRF in the PATCHES folder, replacing one that was already in there, but it didn't change anything. A couple things in the options menu are still off. None of the objective/buy menus seem to be broken like this so I think the game is playable if I just edit the controls in the config.

[Anonymous No.8062795]

>>8062787
>Now that I think about it, those lines always conflicted with the guards talking. I guess they were cut for a reason?
Yes, but the great voodoo47 knows better than LGS.

>I put the INTRFACE.CRF in the PATCHES folder, replacing one that was already in there, but it didn't change anything.
Ah shit, I don't know why it doesn't work then. It should though. You could try opening the patched .crf and putting its files into the regular one but I don't know if it would actually fix it.

[Anonymous No.8062806]

>>8062764
>>8062772
>>8062795
Holy shit someone who actually knows what they're talking about lmao. Hey just 2 quick questions: 1. Looking at some of the patch notes it seems that no matter which version of NewDark I install it's still Thief 2 and not the original version of the Dark Engine from Thief 1. How come? From what I understand it's based on leaked code from System Shock 2 isn't it? Or am I completely fucking wrong? I got Thief 1 working without the patches several years ago on Windows 7 and other than a few bugs it still worked fine? Why isn't there a source-port of Thief 1's engine?

2. How the fuck did I get lgntforce working on my second attempt? Is it just that I'm trying it on Windows 10 or did I get really fucking lucky.

[Anonymous No.8062809]

>>8062806
Oh, and third question even though I think this might be a complete pipe-dream. I know about getting EAX setup but A3D has always seemed like this mythical fucking sound solution that the original games totally supported before Aureal were completely fucked by Creative. Is there any way at all to get A3D or something similar working with Thief on modern hardware? I'm not going to go out and buy a fucking vortex 2 and install Windows 98 but fuck man, Thief would be perfect if it had proper full positional 3D audio and I know it had it at launch.

[Anonymous No.8062812]

>>8062795
I looked in both CRF files and they are exactly the same, it seems the newest TFix Lite came with it already or something.

[Anonymous No.8062819]

>>8062806
>Looking at some of the patch notes it seems that no matter which version of NewDark I install it's still Thief 2 and not the original version of the Dark Engine from Thief 1. How come? From what I understand it's based on leaked code from System Shock 2 isn't it? Or am I completely fucking wrong? I got Thief 1 working without the patches several years ago on Windows 7 and other than a few bugs it still worked fine? Why isn't there a source-port of Thief 1's engine?
I'm no programmer but I'd wager they decided to migrate Thief 1 on 2's engine for convenience, since it is more advanced from the get go. It does come with interesting side-effects like bowmen not being able to shoot themselves anymore if you circle around them though. As it stands they're now virtually the same game just with different assets. You can even put bunnyhopping back in Thief 2 by adding a line in one of the config files. I've heard rumors that NewDark originated from a leaked copy of a Dreamcast version of Thief 2 but at this point it's hard to tell what's the truth and what's invention. I do know that Night Dive claim they have the source code for SS2.

>2. How the fuck did I get lgntforce working on my second attempt? Is it just that I'm trying it on Windows 10 or did I get really fucking lucky.
There is no miracle method. The last time I wanted to install TDP, which was years ago, I had to wait 18 hours before the install frontend actually launched. The time it takes is completely random.

>>8062809
I can't answer this since I don't use EAX, sorry.

>>8062812
That's highly possible. I usually simply use the base NewDark archives myself since I don't trust anything voodoo47 does.

[Anonymous No.8062828]

>>8062819
>I usually simply use the base NewDark archives
How would I do that myself for TDP? Just rename Thief2.exe to Thief.exe?

[Anonymous No.8062832]

>>8062819
Thanks for the responses. I'd guess it's from the leaked build of System Shock 2 for dreamcast because I've never head of Thief 2 ever even being considered for a port.

Also A3D's got nothing to do with EAX. It's this program that worked with old sound cards (like EAX but that was the competition) which enabled full 3D positional sound even on a shitty set of headphones. So that's not just stereo, left and right awareness - you could apparently actually distinguish whether sounds were coming above or below you. Not to mention it had realistic sound reflection against walls and realistic muffling and all kinds of shit. It worked with Thief, it's even advertised on the back of the first games box: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6ng_bGozSo

But then Creative who made EAX sued them into oblivion, bought their entire company in bankruptcy auction and sat on the technology and sued anyone who tried to make cool 3D audio for patent infringement.

I'm just saying the one big flaw with Thief's sound engine is that it's really hard to distinguish where certain sounds are coming from especially when enemies are above or below you. But they actually fixed that problem back in 1998 and it just doesn't work on modern hardware.

[Anonymous No.8062834]

>>8062832
I've seen tons of videos on YouTube testing all sorts of audio solutions for Thief, maybe look there?

[Anonymous No.8062837]

>>8062834
Eh... I was just wondering if there was any way to get A3D working on modern systems. As far as I can tell - it just doesn't exist. There's some HRTF mods with EAX but they're not the same and don't sound as good.

[Anonymous No.8062843]

>>8062828
Renaming the executable wouldn't change anything I think. The NewDark archives contain a readme that'll walk you through installing the files for T1. It's in t2_v127.zip\new_dark.zip\doc\T1.7z\
The most important thing you must do is this
>Before running the game in a Thief 1/G install you must add the config var "dark1" (NOT "game dark1") to the
"cam.cfg" (or "cam_ext.cfg"). Failure to do so will lead to strange things happening and ultimately a crash.

>>8062832
>I'd guess it's from the leaked build of System Shock 2 for dreamcast because I've never head of Thief 2 ever even being considered for a port.
That might actually be the case, yeah.

>I'm just saying the one big flaw with Thief's sound engine is that it's really hard to distinguish where certain sounds are coming from especially when enemies are above or below you.
This is probably also a case of plain bad roombrushing (which are volumes in which sound can travel). Bafford's in particular has very sloppy roombrushing with sound leaking through walls and floors in certain areas.

[Anonymous No.8062860]

>>8062843
One last question. I'm playing the original Dark Project with TFix Lite (couldn't get the actual NewDark working but I think I've realized what I was doing wrong now but I'm already 3 mission deep.) Did Voodoo stick his dick into this one too or did he keep it relatively vanilla? I just want to know if I should restart with proper NewDark.

[Anonymous No.8062883]

>>8062860
I don't think Lite changed a whole lot of things. In case you're not sure you can delete the .dml files in the root folder. These files are injectors used to change the properties of archetypes (like objects and items).

[Anonymous No.8062897]

>>8062883
Ah thank you very much. So, there'll hopefully be no problems if I only delete the .dml files? Cool.

[Anonymous No.8062923]

>>8062897
The .dml files included in Lite don't change anything critical iirc. You can back them up just in case but I don't think there'll be any problem.

[Anonymous No.8063239]

is there a functional difference between t2fix and t2fix lite?
I have been thinking about replaying thief.

[Anonymous No.8064398]

>>8062897
dml files can be opened up in notepad and their changes are documented

[Anonymous No.8064432]

How do I into thief fan missions? Should I play fan missions for 1, 2 or darkmod?

[Anonymous No.8064693]

>>8064432
Yes. 2 has the most amount of fan missions by far but you shouldn't dismiss the others.

[Anonymous No.8065229]

>>8064432
either use a mod loader like angelloader or fmsel which should already come with tfix lite/t2fix lite
also you keep your fan missions zipped up and the respective programs will unpack them for you

[Anonymous No.8065542]

I just went through a bunch of pages on the Tfix thread where people were arguing with voodoo47. I had no idea any of this was a thing and holy shit, the dude is an actual ass.

[Anonymous No.8065638]

>>8065542
Yep, and his SS2 patch is just as fucked even though people say it's essential. Passing off mods under the guise of being a "fix" like this feels like a form of historical revisionism. Fortubately somebody made an alternative t1 newdark installer that does what it says in the tin and nothing more, but I haven't heard about it in a while.

[Anonymous No.8065737]

Ok so I found a way to fix the options menu in a TDP install with TFix Lite. You take the OPTIONCR.BIN from the INTRFACE.CRF of a Thief Gold install and put it into the INTRFACE.CRF of the TDP+Lite install. voodoo said he would update lite so you don't have to do this for TDP but it hasn't been updated since July '19 so I guess he never got around to it.

[Anonymous No.8065932]

unrelated but am I the only who wishes you were able to kill guards on expert? I dunno I feel like it makes the missions much more dynamic and creates emergent scenarios here and there. that's what I noticed after going through the game again on hard.

[Anonymous No.8065943]

>>8065638
On the flip side, TFix full does fix a lot of shit that was objectively bugged. Really a mixed bag.

[Anonymous No.8065951]

>>8065932
I enjoy the extra challenge of steathily killing guards instead of blackjacking them, since they cry out in pain and leave blood. I tried doing a "Tenshu run" where I systematically back-stabbed every guard, haunt and bug-beast in a level on easy, but without the extra objectives and loot goals of the higher difficulties, it's not as fun as it could be.

[Anonymous No.8066139]

Is there any reason why in TDP there is a torch in the Bonehoard that is not facing the correct direction? It seems to be fixed in Gold so I assume the devs themselves fixed it with the Gold edition?

[Anonymous No.8066153]

>>8066139
The reversed torch was apart of accessing the Alarus Extension

[Anonymous No.8066203]

>>8066153
So it's just a known bug then?

[Anonymous No.8066353]

>>8066203
>He hasn't even found the Alarus Extension yet

[Anonymous No.8067389]

>>8066353
I'm still salty over the fact they actually removed the bow upgrade in Gold.

[Anonymous No.8068303]

>>8061438
that pic is such a great and underrated level

[Anonymous No.8068597]

I can’t find Thief available on any of my usual torrenting sites. Can anyone help?

[Anonymous No.8068669]

>>8068597
taffer
https://gog-games.com/search/thief

[Anonymous No.8068939]

>>8068669
Thanks.
Is there a way to remap inventory cycling? I want to assign it to the mouse wheel.

[Anonymous No.8069006]

>>8068939

[Anonymous No.8069069]

>>8068939
Also most people put the inventory on mouse-wheel in Thief. I think it was the default in Thief 2

[Anonymous No.8069290]

>>8068303
It's one of my favorite T2 levels.

>>8068939
You can also add T2 creeping to TG rather than having a separate walk and run key.

[Anonymous No.8070815]

>>8060606
God dammit this game just drags on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on
I've been playing this game whole summer on and off i started by absolutely loving it and by now i almost hate it. Less is truly more, especially in regards to zombie missions or Gold missions

[Anonymous No.8070819]

>>8070815
It's not long at all, are you one of them retards with zero spatial awareness in games?

[Anonymous No.8070823]

>>8070819
>It's not long at all
I'm already 22 hours in and i think there's 2-3 missions left to go.

[Anonymous No.8070836]

>>8070823
That's both games right?
Also Thief Gold is def better on the second playthrough.

[Anonymous No.8070840]

>>8070836
>That's both games right?
No it's thief gold. Vanilla missions take me between 45 minutes to an hour to finish, gold mission took me 2 hours each.

[Anonymous No.8071283]

>>8070840
>45 minutes to an hour to finish
Yeah that sounds right. I don’t know why you’re complaining though, that’s a proper length for a big open ended mission. Maybe you just don’t like the supernatural stuff, a common complaint which is why they did a way with it almost entirely in 2.

[Anonymous No.8071292]

>>8071283
I always preferred the medieval/renaissance setting with anachronistic technology in Thief 1 to the full-blown Victorian steampunk with art deco sprinkled on top in Thief 2. Supernatural horror notwithstanding.

[Anonymous No.8071293]

>>8071283
Oh and if you don’t like the way Gold pads out the game, then try The Dark Project.

[Anonymous No.8071295]

>>8071283
Nah i'm ok with individual mission length, that anon (or was it (You)?) just asked if 22 hours were both games.
I just whole-heartedly hated certain missions, other were just frustrating. Could've saved myself like 6 hours skipping some of them tbqh. The thieving missions were mostly fucking great, the tomb raider shit was mostly terrible, except the lost city. The last gold mission was great too.

[Anonymous No.8071298]

>>8071295
>the tomb raider shit was mostly terrible
You will be back.

[Anonymous No.8071303]

>>8071295
I’m not that Anon, each game took me well over 20 hours to beat the first time, I’d say 22-30 hours. I played on expert. But anyway you could either try TDP so you don’t have the Gold levels, or just finish it up and move on to 2 which has no tomb raiding at all. I personally like the supernatural stuff and missed it a lot in 2, but you may be different. The only things in Gold that annoyed me were Thieves Guild and Return to the Cathedral.

[Anonymous No.8071312]

>>8071303
>But anyway you could either try TDP
I'll just ctrl+shift+alt+end them in the future. As i said, the third mission was actually really good.
I know it's not really fair to bitch about games that were figuring out as pioneers but i just needed to spill out my frustration after jumping from Undercover to fucking misery that is return to the fucking cathedral.

[Anonymous No.8071314]

>>8071312
Wew lad, the return to the haunted cathedral is a GOAT mission.

[Anonymous No.8071316]

>>8071314
>hordes of undead
>OI TAFFAH GO OOP AND BRING 'ERE X
>NOW BRING Y
>NOW Z
>NOW OIM OUT OF ALPHABET BUT THOU BRINGST SHITE ANYWAY
Uuuughhhh

[Anonymous No.8071323]

>>8071312
Well Return to the Cathedral is my vote for worst mission in the base game, and Thieves Guild is my vote for worst Gold mission. Those are the only two missions of 1 I dislike, because I found them unfun to play through. The game is still an overall masterpiece for me, and for you it just sounds like you'd enjoy Thief 2 ten times more.

[Anonymous No.8071391]

Alright guys so I found a way to install TDP without waiting a million years. All you have to do is use the same run -lgntforce method, but in SAFE MODE. Just did it on Win10.

[Anonymous No.8071419]

>>8071391
I wish I had thought of that. Thank you anon.

[Anonymous No.8071424]

OP here, so to finally wrap up the thread I'll link the posts detailing my process of installing Thief The Dark Project on Win10.
>>8062132
Do all this
>>8071391
If -lgntforce isn't doing anything, do it in safe mode
>>8065737
To fix the bugged out options menu after installing TFix Lite (or NewDark as well probably), take the OPTIONCR.BIN from the INTRFACE.CRF of a Thief Gold install (located in the RES folder) and put it into the INTRFACE.CRF of the TDP+TFixLite install (located in PATCHES folder).

[Anonymous No.8071490]

>>8071316
>fetch quest therefore bad

[Anonymous No.8071496]

>>8071490
It wouldn't've been nearly as annoying if he wasn't sending for one thing at a time and forcing you to make laps around the the level over and over again

[Anonymous No.8071531]

>>8071496
I don't mind it.
I like it precisely because it feels like an old survival horror game where you throroughly explore the same location while returning to a hub area several times.

furthermore, I don't really get impatient with levels when the atmosphere is good. in fact, I Ilike to load up THC and RTC just to take a moody nightwalk through them

[Anonymous No.8071562]

has anyone else played the recently released contest missions?

I found nicked's contribution to be surprisingly fun and solid. I've been missing FMs that encourage players to cheese dark engine physics (I'm still waiting for a bunny hopping centered FM).

grandmauden's four emperors is actually a completely fleshed out and polished mission, despite being speedbuilt. most of the puzzles were clever too. took me a good 40+ minutes to clear.

skejven's mission was beautiful, and seems to have taken a lot of inspiration from schlock's alcazar.

the remaining entries were okay, but didn't leave a lasting impression on me

[Anonymous No.8071568]

>>8071314
Agreed, but I actually think the first Haunted Cathedral mission is the best in the game.

[Anonymous No.8071738]

>>8071568
I think the lore of an entire division of the city being the epicenter to a disaster regarding Constantine's last effort to destroy the Hammers is an interesting piece of lore.
Especially that in its wake, most of the Old Quarter has become a walled-off nightmare à la The Zone and everything inside is crawling with zombies and monsters, or in cases like the Shalebridge Cradle -- something far worse.

[Anonymous No.8073321]

[Anonymous No.8073729]

>>8073321

[Anonymous No.8075073]

>thief is suddenly cool again
Huh?

[Anonymous No.8075185]

>>8075073
What do you mean?

[Anonymous No.8076913]

>>8075073
Thief was always cool

[Anonymous No.8078242]

Bump.

[Anonymous No.8078252]

Seven Sisters is a slog even for a Lady Rowena mission, no idea why it gets praised so much.

[Anonymous No.8078447]

>>8078252
No points for hating on popular FMs. Some people hate puzzles, some people hate mazes, some people hate keyhunts, some people hate undead, some people hate cheesy plots, some people hate city missions, etc. Everyone's favorite is someone else's "overrated".

[Anonymous No.8078450]

Serious question: how many of you haven't tried FMs because it seems too fiddly to set them up? Like, if FMs were a one-click download & play, would you try them then? I suspect even a tiny bit of friction deters a LOT of people but I can't prove it.

[Anonymous No.8078473]

>>8071562
thanks for the reviews, I didn't even realize there was a recent contest, I'll check them out

>>8071298
I played only mansion/building/city levels with human enemies for years before realizing that Thief's dungeon-crawling levels were like my D&D fantasies in first-person 3D. Once I started thinking of them as class-restricted Ultima Underworld levels I fell in love with them and they're now some of my favorites.

[Anonymous No.8078739]

>>8078447
Explain to me why it's good, the lighting is borked, the AI is hypersensitive with tons of redundant patrols watching eachothers backs, required areas rarely have multiple avenues to enter, there aren't any real puzzles, and the loot limit on night 2 is retardedly high.

[Anonymous No.8078792]

>>8078739
I'm not saying the mission is good, I'm saying posts like this are a big yawn. Every person who plays a lot of FMs is going to hit one that's highly ranked and regarded as a classic, but to them it's lame. I mean people do this already with the OMs in this very thread. It's a big yawn and not much of a discussion starter. Move on and play a different one.

[Anonymous No.8078802]

>>8078792
I wanted to hear a second opinion from someone who actually finished it, cry about it.

[Anonymous No.8078809]

Why are thiefags like this?
>>8078595

[Anonymous No.8078825]

>>8078809
>Heh, "Overrated Games General"... How pretentious can you get?

[Anonymous No.8079037]

>>8060606
Thief isn't fun, its boring

[Anonymous No.8080146]

>>8079037
Shut up you taffer.

[Anonymous No.8080224]

>>8079037
too cerebral for you

[Anonymous No.8080427]

>>8068303
Thief 2 has a fair few levels that feel particularly good, just in presentation. Focusing on the locations and building a story around them was better from a gameplay perspective imo. Even if you lost a fair bit of the dark fantasy element.

[Anonymous No.8080439]

for me, precious cargo will always be the last decent level before the game goes to shit completely

[Anonymous No.8080440]

>>8080427
>Focusing on the locations and building a story around them was better from a gameplay perspective imo
It wasn't, especially after the halfway point of the game. That said, death to any retard that shits on Thief 2 for hipster cred.

[Anonymous No.8080467]

>>8080440
>That said, death to any retard that shits on Thief 2 for hipster cred.
the art direction (or rather, the lack of one) was objectively inferior to the one in T1.

it's primarily a game you play for the fan mission scene.
shame 99% of all T2 missions have the trademark multicoloured puke filter on them (pic very related)

[Anonymous No.8080473]

>>8080467
The art direction of Thief 2 was fantastic and the OMs are better than the majority of FMs.

[Anonymous No.8080510]

>>8080473
all I see in your pic is naturalism/realism.

it's pretty bland compared to the more stylised colour scheme and use of lighting in T1

[Anonymous No.8080521]

>>8080510
>stylised
I meant *stylish btw

[Anonymous No.8080546]

I'm playing Thief for the first time. The thieves guild almost made me quit the game, that mission is pure horseshit. However the one after it made me stay. The Sword was some of the best curve balls I've seen in a videogame.

[Anonymous No.8080553]

>>8080546
I'll blow your mind by saying they were designed by the same person.

[Anonymous No.8080570]

>>8080553
Thieves Guild is nowhere near as bad of a mission as people make it out to be, it's just a difficulty spike and a compass check. The average 2005 FM is far more obtuse and will almost never even tell you where you are on the map.

[Anonymous No.8080713]

>>8080570
For what it's worth I agree, though it's a mission that gets better on a second playthrough. It can certainly be rough on a first though I did enjoy my first time there overall, if only for the challenge in comparison to the very easy Assassins.

[Anonymous No.8080767]

>>8080546
Same. Kinda wish I played The Dark Project first because you go straight from Assassins to The Sword. I almost fucking put the game down at Thieves Guild. I really liked the other two Gold levels though.

[Anonymous No.8080895]

>>8080767
The thing with the thieves guild is that I think it could be a great mission if someone talented reworked it. There's stuff in there like the first part with the restaurant leading to the casino that I really liked. The main problem is having to navigate through so much same looking corridors and recycled rooms everywhere. It's a massive mess but it has some ideas.

[Anonymous No.8080956]

The Thieves Guild thing is funny to me, because I had only played T2 and FMs for years before I ever tried Gold, and whether by luck, experience, or just being a bit of an autistic searcher I didn't get stuck on Thieves Guild (playing on Expert). I wasn't a big fan of the level but shrugged it off. Afterwards I started reading all these complaints and it makes me feel like I didn't get the "true" Thieves Guild experience, lol.

[Anonymous No.8080968]

>>8080956
The Guild is fine if you're not a braindead retard who can't put two and two together by listening to the many conversations between thieves who tell you in explicit detail where everything is, and if you also use your compass.

[Anonymous No.8081078]

>this waiting simulator is considered the best 1998 game
Oh no no no no

[Anonymous No.8081137]

>>8081078
>waiting simulator

You don't have to wait if you memorize routes.
But it's a fucking stealth game. Waiting and planning are the foundation to sneaking around places.

[Anonymous No.8081139]

>>8080968
The level isn't particularly hard, it's just that most of it is an exercise in boring repetition.

[Anonymous No.8081150]

>>8081139
It's not very well laid out and some things are bullshit (switch 47, the bracelet, these I will concede 100%), but a lot of the issues people have about this level are entirely their own fault.

[Anonymous No.8081184]

>>8080427
Never cared for the story in Thief, or stories in video games in general. Atmosphere, level design, presentation, world building are more important to me.

[Anonymous No.8081258]

>>8081150
I haven't seen much of it so can't comment on people's retarded complaints. RN I'm doing the haunted manor which is sorta funny. I discovered that I can kill the spirits with flash bombs and having an eternal conga line of zombies is never not funny.

[Anonymous No.8081653]

>>8080570
I always manage to visit the manors in the wrong order, even when I consciously tell myself which is which, and I have to do unnecessary backtracking. I guess I'm retarded.

[Anonymous No.8081762]

What are some good FMs akin to Lost City? Tomb raiding in general is fine but ones with that aesthetic is what I'm after

[Anonymous No.8081829]

>>8081762
Not a lot I'm afraid. Check out Return to the Lost City and the second mission of Broken Triad.

[Anonymous No.8081905]

>>8081762
There is one I played recently with a significant Lost City portion but I cannot remember the name of it off the top of my head.

[Anonymous No.8081928]

>>8081905
I found it, the FM is called In and Out.

[Anonymous No.8081987]

>>8081829
>>8081928
Thank you anons

[Anonymous No.8082126]

>>8080570
Yeah it's always nuts to me that these people will put in the time to learn a map system and painstakingly design intricate architecture, and then after hundreds of hours of doing that they can't be bothered to sketch a rough map or include the bare minimum flavor text to flesh out the mission.

[Anonymous No.8082716]

>>8060665
Holy shit. I know this is late but I just got up to The Lost City and I see what you mean. This has suddenly turned into a fucking really good stealth horror mission. I've played it before with GoldToDark but it wasn't like this. There's Craymen fucking everywhere

[Anonymous No.8082790]

>>8080570
I just don't think a Thief mission should be based entirely on finding secrets. Let alone a linear sequence of secrets that there's absolutely no way to deviate from. Find the secret door to find the secret key to find the secret safe with a key, and then find the secret lever to get to the house where you can use the key to open a secret safe, and after all that you take like five steps through an unlocked, unguarded door and you're outside. What even is the point of the whole secret casino segment if infiltration would have been infinitely easier through that escape route instead? The only mission with less freedom of approach is Trace The Courier

[Plutonia No.8082796]

I put all the missions in the trilogy through a tournament scheduler which compares each mission with every other mission. Each was a match-up where 10 points are distributed based on how well a mission wins against another. 10/0 being a perfect win and 5/5 being a draw. Obviously, it took ages to fill out. Apparently I seem to like the Bank more than Party. And Training is just bad because it's hyper-linear and neglects to teach half the game's mechanics, and the few it does teach don't teach them comprehensively or let you practice multiple times.
The pseudo-missions of Deadly Shadows are not included because they're just part of the open world. Abysmal Gale, for example, or the Final Glypth.

[Anonymous No.8082909]

>>8082716
Remember to do your part and shit on idiots that shill GoldToDark in the future.

[Anonymous No.8083092]

>>8060665
Is there a big enough difference in the games that you couldn't just copy the TDP maps overtop the Gold maps?
What are others that are better in TDP? Haven't played it since it came out. Been on Gold since then for replays.

[Anonymous No.8083108]

>>8082796
>And Training is just bad because it's hyper-linear and neglects to teach half the game's mechanics, and the few it does teach don't teach them comprehensively or let you practice multiple times.
I think that's fine for it's purpose desu. The rest you'll learn as you go, it's not like they're tossing you in Escape! right after.
It could've been better, but it does let you go back and redo the obstacles as much as you want. Only thing it doesn't is the shadow sneaking and sound sneaking...
It could've had you playing a young Garrett and sneaking away at night from the keepers etc to do sow wild oats. Watching a play from the rafters, or meeting a girl. Whatever people in the city do for fun. Would've been cool.

[Anonymous No.8083118]

>>8083092
The other maps aren't better, just different. Bonehoard doesn't have the wooden platform you can rope up and there's less texture variety in the map, with most of it being the dark gray cobble texture and the zombies getting up instantly after being downed makes them more of a threat. Cragscleft has more thorough patrols in Gold compared to TDP which makes it more of a difficulty spike and I like the mission better for it. The Sword also doesn't have little big world in TDP.

[Plutonia No.8083135]

>>8083108
Yeah. I've always liked the idea of a "Director's Cut" of TDP that makes the training mission into something more sprawling with lots of optional content. I also think that the training is very shallow and for example the most important aspects aka. the stealth are very binary. You are taught to stay unseen in pitch black darkness, and if you're not, you fail and have to restart. If you succeed, you pass and can't retry. You aren't taught how to deal with vision cones of enemies, the effect of observer's distance, the role of elevation, or visibility in half-light. You aren't familiarized with the behavior of alerted or suspicious NPCs. You are not taught the volume of different materials, only very loud metal and completely quiet carpet.
If I recall correctly, every single issue of the T1 training mission is addressed in the training mission of The Dark Mod.

[Anonymous No.8083147]

>>8083135
I think all those details would be better in a low risk natural way is all. I don't really want the game to spell that out in training scenarios. It would get tedious. But if you had the opportunity to sneak past the keepers on various floors and light levels and have their response to catching you be "what are you playing at" and not "stop right there criminal scum!" it would address all that in a natural manner.

[Anonymous No.8083167]

>>8083135
Did you ever end up emulating Tenchu?

[Plutonia No.8083508]

>>8083167
I've got pretty good settings for emulation that keep the games as vanilla as possible, however I don't have the ROM for Tenchu.

[Anonymous No.8083557]

>>8082716
>stealth horror
You should give an FM "The Perdurance" a shot, it's more intense than the vanilla zombie stuff.

[Anonymous No.8085472]

>>8081762
Ypu may want to check out the third mission in the Gems of Provenance campaign.

[Anonymous No.8085604]

This series deserves better than what that reboot gave it. Imagine Thief 1-3 remade in a modern engine.

[Plutonia No.8085642]

I made Bafford's Manor in Sims 4. Took some liberties in filling in some of the inexplicably solid geometry of the house. Servants now have their own entrance in the back, under the throne room. The top floor has an outdoor lounge and bar. Also, the building has bathrooms now.

[Anonymous No.8085643]

>>8085604
they should have put thief on the n64. been saying this since the90s

[Anonymous No.8085671]

I try to play single missions without quick saves in order to keep it challenging but at the end of each level I've just knocked everybody out and then just jump around looking for treasure, kind of lame.

I wish there was a mod in which knocked out enemies could wake up etc.

[Anonymous No.8085675]

>>8085671
go for an actual ghost run then

[Anonymous No.8085686]

>>8085604
>-3

[Anonymous No.8085693]

>>8085642
That is really sick ngl

[Anonymous No.8085767]

>>8085604
It's called the Dark Mod and it's fucking awful. The Soruce engine is the only one that doesn't have fucked up movement and it's a complete nightmare to work with.

[Anonymous No.8085770]

>>8080570
Cool idea. Horrendous execution. So many linear sections. Not to mention bugs with light detection. The mansions are the only decent areas.

[Anonymous No.8085794]

>>8060634
Gold wasn't just 3 more missions. It also made changes to plenty of the original maps, some of which being very major.

[Anonymous No.8085915]

>>8085770
Some of the sections are linear even though they normally wouldn't need to be. The green-blue outfit chefs have hyper-aware AI for no reason, which reduces the player's options in all areas that have them. So instead of merely having the option to knock them out, it's mandatory because any other action leads to them running for help.

[Anonymous No.8086232]

>>8085770
>The mansions are the only decent areas
the mansions are awful. they don't look lived in at all

[Anonymous No.8086541]

>>8085671
>I try to play single missions without quick saves in order to keep it challenging but at the end of each level I've just knocked everybody out and then just jump around looking for treasure, kind of lame.
Yeah, that eventually became how I viewed thief. If they could have somehow adjusted the balance to make neutralizing guards harder and misc treasure hunts easier it would have been better.

[Anonymous No.8086852]

>>8085686
Reminder that the shitty eggs box made them downsize and cut up every level after they were already made.

[Anonymous No.8087084]

Do you think basso actually let Garrett fuck his sister?

[Anonymous No.8087217]

>>8087084
Knowing Garret's luck he probably got blueballed for some reason or another.

[Anonymous No.8087272]

just played through Return to the Lost City, and holy shit, was that mission ruined by the loot quota.
gorgous locations and architecture, INSANE loot requirement. I found several secrets and still ended up short on loot.

it sucks, because it's one of those grand adventures that literally take you to hell and back - only to cuck you out of the victory screen because you didn't pixel hunt well enough for trinkets in the dark.
to add insult to injury, all loot values were much lower than normal, so when you're raiding tombs for priceless treasure, you feel like you're picking pennies off the ground. the worst offender is the secret chamber in the temple. when you find it, you get to see a camvator cutscene, complete with custom music (orchestral) playing in the background. you walk into a big chamber with a sarcophagus in the middle. it contains a skeleton with a tiara on it. the tiara is worth like 25 gold or something. fucking hell.

FM authors like these are the reason that I'm in favour of death penalty

[Anonymous No.8087498]

>>8080570
I've been replaying Thief Gold recently, and while it's not that confusing when using a compass, it's a horrendously bad mission for other reasons.
This playthrough I wanted to be as sneaky/non-confrontative as possible (not ghosting though because I have no patience for it), and on most other levels I could get away with 2-3 knock-outs tops, but Thieves' guild's main problem is twofold. First, it has small areas of not very deep shadow, which are spaced out quite far apart, so it's not easy to navigate between safe spots. Second, the patrol routes that cross and overlay in a lot of places, resulting in areas where a lot of NPCs walk around in desynchronized manner giving you very short timeframes for darting from shadow to shadow. Combine these and the level becomes a quicksave central.
After leaving the casino I completely gave up on any attempts at ghosting or semi-ghosting and went bonking most guards upside the head to save myself time. This playstyle is even more promoted by the fact that the route to Reuben's house is pretty much a linear corridor (most routes through the level are, in fact) and the fact that it has a couple of heavily guarded chokepoints where these routes intersect - so you can't traverse the map in interesting ways, and have to sneak past the same Tom Dick and Harry each time you're trying to get somewhere. And imagine you missed Randall's bracelet trying to do that, and have to go back to get it...
So yeah, now I understand the hate for this mission. It has all the pitfalls of the stealth genre that get it a reputation of being a tedious waiting game, while completely lacking the level design that makes Thief games great in the first place.

[Anonymous No.8087509]

>>8087498
I really wish I knew what the designers were thinking with thieves guild.
what their goals were.
how much it was playtested.
how they expected the players to play.

[Anonymous No.8087513]

>>8087272
Did you play on Expert for your first playthrough? Stop playing on Expert for your first playthrough.

I played Return to the Lost City and IMO it was fantastic. I did not struggle with the loot.

[Anonymous No.8087514]

>>8086852
reminder they could have made it work if they didn't waste resources on nongameplay aspects of the game.
Blaming the Xbox is disingenuous. Thief 3 would have still suffered even if the levels weren't cut up and then downscaled the graphics on xbox
Blaming xbox for Thief 3 is like blaming Xbox for invisible war.
It's just stupid. The fault is on the fucking design level. They didn't have a good game and then suddenly had to make it shitty on purpose to fit on an XBox. the game was already not going to be good because for whatever reason they thought xbox players didn't like good games so games made with the xbox in mind had to be shit or something.
Xbox had plenty of good stuff that worked fine on its system. The people behind Thief 3 and IW genuinely just totally fucked up on a level where being PC exclusive and having more power would not save those games

[Anonymous No.8087525]

>>8087514
Consolitis is real (especially during that era), T3 is an obvious victim of it, and you shouldn't make excuses for it. And it's not just the hardware, it's the expectation that most of your players are playing several feet from the screen in a well-lit room.

[Anonymous No.8087568]

>>8087514
I think you need to step back and realize that the xbox was still weaker than a normal gaming pc

[Anonymous No.8087607]

>>8087525
>>8087568
Totally irrelevant to the core problems of Thief 3 and IW

[Anonymous No.8087619]

>>8087525
>>8087568
plenty of pc games went to xbox and were totally fine. its just not xbox's fault that thief 3 was underwhelming. the entire studio was going downhill at that point

[Anonymous No.8087624]

>>8087607
don't care

[Anonymous No.8087630]

Yeah I don't buy that Xbox excuse. Xbox is a total scapegoat. Eidos was just at the end of the line.

[Anonymous No.8087669]

>>8087513
generally speaking, missions usually have reasonable loot quotas regardless of difficulty level. the main difference is that expert gives you all objectives (=all content).

insane authors who use unreasonable quotas on any level are thankfully a minority.
Trial by Night is another notorious example. IIRC that mission actually required you to find 100% (or near 100%) of the loot, while being a large city mission. the author defended it by saying that "expert should be tough", as if pixel hunts were a legitimate gameplay challenge

[Anonymous No.8087680]

>>8087514
You’re retarded. Randy Smith literally said they were told after they finished all the levels that they wouldn’t fit on the Xbox, so they had to downsize them. They were hampered by the Xbox in many ways.

[Anonymous No.8087687]

>>8087680
if you think the only problem with thief 3 is that the levels are chopped up and and smaller then you're just totally unreasonable

[Anonymous No.8087704]

>>8087687
You’re an idiot for not recognizing how hardware limitations can affect the gameplay and design. If you think Randy is a liar then that’s another story, but the Xbox being a factor in the development is a known fact.

[Anonymous No.8087726]

>>8087704
the xbox's hardware limitations didn't lead to other pc games turning into something drastically different and worse, so why is it the case with thief 3? Could it be that eidos was just fucking incompetent and had no idea how to prioritize their resources on top of most of the team being fatigued of making thief games?

Xbox did not have to be a factor, they made it one. And then blamed the xbox every time there was a shortcoming with the team itself. I just don't understand the logic of
>the game had to be shit because it was on xbox
That just doesn't make sense. Plenty of games made the leap to consoles basically unscathed. but for some reason thief couldn't do it. and this shortcoming is somehow not Eidos' fault, but Xbox's.
I dunno man. that just doesn't add up. It seems more likely that people just want to defend and protect Eidos while shitting on those 'shitty consoles' for ruining their glorious PC games.
I really don't believe thats how the reality lines up.

[Anonymous No.8087790]

Thief 3's engine is dogshit regardless of it being on Xbox or PC. The flesh engine cannot handle reasonable map sizes and is bugged to shit because Ion Storm was a C grade LGS.

[Anonymous No.8088462]

Damn it's fun to play the original Dark Project version of Return to the Cathedral. You can wedge open the front door with a skull, make a b-line for the eye and waltz back out the front door. And the game still counts it as a victory.

[Anonymous No.8088672]

>>8087790
Randy Smith also finally admitted in the most recent Noclip documentary a fact that fans of the series knew ever since the announcement of no swimming or rope arrows. The third person mode was a mistake and ended up compounding problems over problems. Everything that should have been simple became complicated because of animations.

[Anonymous No.8089618]

>>8086232
Yeah but the level design is good at least for the one with the courtyard with the secret passage in the fireplace and spot you can rope arrow to the second floor in.

[Anonymous No.8091401]

Don't let this thread die.

[Anonymous No.8091558]

>>8091401
k.
I'll just leave this here, then...

[Anonymous No.8091665]

I hope Eidos pulls their heads put of their anus and make a new Thief game someday like the original, but I'm not holding my breath on the current state of the games industry on focusing on what made the source material great over "trends!". Doom Eternal being an exception, and even then only on singleplayer.

[Anonymous No.8091669]

>>8091665
>Doom Eternal being an exception
retard alert

[Anonymous No.8091768]

[Anonymous No.8091772]

>>8071314
Someone post that webm.

[Anonymous No.8094139]

>>8091401
Okay

[Anonymous No.8094668]

That fucking mission in the mages towers blows dick. So far it feels like Gold's missions were made in like a week

[Anonymous No.8094715]

>>8094668
The third Gold mission is gud at least

[Anonymous No.8095615]

>>8091768
The Kart Project

[Anonymous No.8097126]

>>8094715
Yeah the Opera house was fairly good, maybe the fact that I had to go through the lost city and the mages tower had something to do with it but I hope the next one stays good.

[Anonymous No.8097156]

>>8091665
never going to happen with consoles sadly. the elegant interface where you lean and duck to interact with all sorts of gizmos, no flashy animations getting in the way, no major studio is going to release that game.

[Anonymous No.8098056]

>>8080956
Pretty much
I played gold first but my experience with TG was just average, it was lengthy and mazelike but I wasnt spurned by it like most others seem to have been

[Anonymous No.8098079]

>>8085671
This is why Im not ashamed of savescumming and ghosting

[Anonymous No.8098167]

>>8094715
I went through it and I particularly loved the small twist it had. I thought the mission would be about tomb raiding again so I got ready to bonk the crab people, then you meet the crazy opera singer and the true mission begins. O have nothing against the supernatural stuff in Thief but some of the missions surrounding that stuff have some critical flaw imo. Like haunted cathedral can be amazing until you realize that the loot requirement will have you pixel hunting across the fucking map, killing the amazing atmosphere it had.

[Anonymous No.8098209]

>>8094668
I liked it
How did you not find the wind tower and the ambiance with it captivating? Swimming up the water tower was fun too in that abstract, 90s 3D kind of way.

[Anonymous No.8098219]

>Gold bad
this seems like some sort of new hipster bullshit.
The only mission that MIGHT be bad and did in fact filter me the first time was Thieves Guild, but I'm glad I sacked up and got through it. nothing added to gold is half as bad as the Escape

[Anonymous No.8098223]

>>8098219
Lost City is an objective downgrade in Gold and Gold2Dark doesn't even restore it right. Also Mage Towers isn't bad exactly but is fucking boring. The only good things in Gold are the opera house level and the secret area in Constantine's mansion. Dark Project is the objectively superior experience overall.

[Anonymous No.8098265]

>>8098223
Fire shadows are cool, though

[Anonymous No.8098270]

>>8098223
>Dark Project is the objectively superior experience overall.
It's not, the zombie behavior is better in Gold and it's impossible to go back to bodies not making any sounds when you drop them.

[Anonymous No.8098278]

>>8085643
I don't think the N64 could do the lighting, or level size.
Dreamcast maybe.

[Anonymous No.8098298]

>>8087687
Go read the original post you responded to. The claim was about the level size.
That WAS due to the limitations of the Xbox. Then your argument is "it would've been shit anyway"
Maybe, maybe not. I don't even think it's shit at all, but that one claim is directly due to the hardware of the Xbox.

[Anonymous No.8098306]

>>8087790
>The flesh engine cannot handle reasonable map sizes
There's a mod out there that stitches the maps together and it does fine.

[Anonymous No.8098329]

>>8098209
I liked all that sort of stuff and it's why I kept playing through them. Thief has top notch visuals and atmosphere, the problem with the mages tower is how utterly linear it is imo

[Anonymous No.8098478]

NGL return to the cathedral makes me wish I could genocide the hammers in both this world and in the after life.

[Anonymous No.8098518]

>>8098478
As much as I love the intro the comedy relief fetch quest clashed so much with the atmosphere that it evened out to meh for me.

[Anonymous No.8098616]

>>8098306
>The flesh engine cannot handle reasonable map sizes
That sounds like something Burroughs would write

[Anonymous No.8098880]

>>8098329
It's insane how simple a solution to the Mage Towers linearity problem would have been. In its present form is goes like this:
No key > Key 1 > Key 2 > Key 3 > Treasure.
Absolute linearity for no reason. And all you'd need to have instead is this:
Get any key, get any other key, get any third key, get any fourth key, open treasure with all four keys.
You wouldn't even need to change the level design. All towers would be open, and serve as individual fortresses guarding their respective keys. Well, maybe make the Water Tower into an actual level, but that's an AI pathfinding tech issue that was unsolvable. And nobody likes "the water level" in any game anyway.
The only problem would be in narrative repetition. (Get 4 elemental keys to get to the treasure, which is one of 4 elemental keys you need to get to a treasure)

[Anonymous No.8099380]

>>8098306
They're still pathetically sized. Everything in Deadly Shadows feels like some sort of Fisher Price theme park knockoff of the first game.

[Anonymous No.8099719]

>>8098880
I'd argue that making it Key 1 > any key > treasure would be a massive improvement over what we had. The mages tower wasn't a particularly bad level or anything, but the pacing absolutely bogs it down. The opera was fucking kino, return to the cathedral goes on for fucking ever. Now I'm in Escape! And this level is even worse than the thieves guild. I will finish Gold and hope T2 improves on the level design ||and keeps the spooky shit||

[Anonymous No.8099772]

>>8099719
>||and keeps the spooky shit||
oof...2 kind of has the opposite problem of 1. It's bookended by a bunch painful stealth missions that it makes you opine for the spooky zombie levels.

[Anonymous No.8099779]

>>8099772
>>8099719
Both Thief and Thief 2 have some really good missions with some really bad missions interspersed throughout. It's just how they are, unfortunately.

[Anonymous No.8099795]

>>8099719
I saw a clip from an interview with one of the level designers where says in Thief 1 they would design the maps first like they were an actual location, then figure out the player's path through them, and when they did Thief 2 they did the opposite and designed them with the player's path in mind first and trying to make it like an actual building second. I think it shows, especially in a couple levels where you go on a long trip through multiple areas rather than just being in a mansion or something the whole time.

Also there's less supernatural stuff in 2, but what is there is scarier.

[Anonymous No.8099806]

>>8099795
>but what is there is scarier.
I disagree. None of Thief 2's ghost and zombie appearances never come as close to certain parts of Thief 1 in terms of making a player shit themselves.

But, imo, the robots can be pretty freaky at points.

[Anonymous No.8099835]

>>8083135
You aren't taught about leaning into doors too which is VERY useful.

[Anonymous No.8099837]

>>8099779
Of the last act, only Kidnap is bad and Casing is arguably bad.* Masks is a fantastic mansion heist level, only held back by boring symmetricality. And Soulforge is a test of every skill you've had to learn so far, that prevents you from relying on any crutches you may have utilized.

*I don't mind Casing the Joint. It's a very easy mission, it has a comfortable warm atmosphere, and it's a big scavenger hunt for a large number of small loot items. And, you know how the act of getting good at stealth games often involves simply gaining more knowledge of levels and then using that knowledge in subsequent playthroughs? Casing the Joint is that but in deliberate level design form. You are supposed to familiarize yourself with the mansion before it's filled with high security during the exhibit. You're not just replaying a level to do it better. You're pre-building the skill to play that level before even starting it.

[Anonymous No.8099873]

>>8099837
Kidnap is legit one of the worst, laziest levels in all of thief. Total rehash of the Lost City with all the most interesting parts stripped out and having entire sectors completely devoid of any loot or points of interest.
Masks and Casing the Joint might be fine in many ways, but obviously there's points against them for having to play both back-to-back and as nice as Gervasius's manor is, it's not interesting enough to be:
>worth two missions
>having to play it once when it was almost completely empty
>it's another mission in a mansion in a game full of mansions and ornate public buildings.
>it's the penultimate level.
Soulforge is good and is a plebfilter, though perhaps not without not needing some improvements. It's the closest Thief 2 comes to levels like Down in the Bonehoard or Return to the Cathedral, which is a massive breath of fresh air.

Shipping and Receiving is my personal favorite Thief 2 level.

[Anonymous No.8099908]

>>8099719
>Now I'm in Escape! And this level is even worse than the thieves guild
it really isn't.

the main reason that thieves' guild sucks is that it drags on and overstays its welcome. it's a level made up completely of transition areas - that is, featureless places with simple geometries designed only for funneling the player to other places - that you spend a completely unjustified amount of time travelling through.
escape is just a quick, action heavy mission that introduces you to the pagan beasts. storywise, it also reveals the "true" plot before the endgame. it's hated mostly because it isn't designed with ghosting in mind.

[Anonymous No.8099917]

>>8099806
I might be biased cause I played some of 2 first as kid and got suprised by a haunt without knowing really you can fight them and it scared me so bad I couldn't keep playing. I won't say where for the benefit of people who haven't played but it was kind of perfectly set up where I heard the chains and moaning and then opened a door trying to be sneaky and it ran straight at me screaming lol. Also I think the ghosts are spookier than stuff like the zombie crypt, even if they're not outright frightening. Also the main plot of 2 is pretty scary imo, even if you want to put that outside the supernatural catagory.

All the horror elements in the Thief games is a lot more of the "have to let it scare you" variety rather than something that will straight out fuck with you

[Anonymous No.8100087]

>>8099873
>Shipping and Receiving is my personal favorite Thief 2 level.
I guess it's a good lore dump, and it's sort of novel in an irl thief sim sort of way, but the central mechanic is tedious and not particularly interesting. I just remember it as another indeterminable collectathon.

[Anonymous No.8100130]

>>8099917
>Thief games is a lot more of the "have to let it scare you" variety rather than something that will straight out fuck with you
I think that stems a lot from how Thief's undead play by the same rules as most npcs. There's no crazy scripting and what have you to make you feel like you're truly in the midst of supernatural entities. All of them can be killed just the same as everything else. Zombies can get back up, but they're slow and only dangerous in groups. Apparitions are mages with a ton of HP and some freaky backwards sound sampling. Haunts are guards with their speed cranked up to overwhelming levels. They're all dangerous, but they play by the rules of the game. They don't magically take away Garrett's abilities to attack, but they will likely rape you in a sword fight.
They're scary in very much the same way as getting caught in general in Thief can be frightening.

[Anonymous No.8100173]

>>8100130
>Haunts are guards with their speed cranked up to overwhelming levels.
they even shake their fists at you when they can't reach you, like guards do

[Anonymous No.8100224]

>>8100087
>and it's sort of novel in an irl thief sim sort of way, but the central mechanic is tedious and not particularly interesting. I just remember it as another indeterminable collectathon
I fully understand that it might bore some people, but Shipping and Receiving has a monstrous level of personal appeal for me.

For one, it IS a good lore dump. Like the Thieves' Highway portion of Life of the Party, it's a big level where you get to see a lot of how the city operates on a normal day. Art galleries, smith workshops, various cargo dumps, spider steaks. It's the best example of the minutiae of Thief's setting in the series. All those lots are a peek into someone's life (albeit a fictional one).
Second, it's simply a setting that I love. I love factories and warehouses, shipyards, freight yards industrial sites and 1880's-1950's era burgundy brick architecture. I like other game's locations like this as well, Grunty Industries in Banjo-Tooie, a lot of maps in Team Fortress 2 like Granary and Well. You have all the workshops and suites. And it has a nice contrast to a lot of the other levels in Thief 2. It's a plain-Jane shipyard, not someone's Maison.

I don't mind the central gimmick. There's several switch rooms for Building A. IIRC it's three outside, one inside. There shouldn't realistically be that much backtracking. But I don't mind backtracking in general -- in any game.

[Anonymous No.8100256]

This is another reason why Kidnap is such a disappointing level for me. I would have loved for it be a massive industrial site manned by the Mechanists, instead of the massive, stripped down version of the Lost City.
Have you ever been in a large underground mine? They can be massive labyrinths of rock, machinery and railroads. And then you can combine that aspect with the archeological dig aspect.

[Anonymous No.8100314]

>>8100256
mines in general are such an underrated location, even in fan missions

[Anonymous No.8100618]

Aight I finished Thief Gold and I can say it really is a LGS game: Full of ambition and GOAT game design that stumbles quite hard sometimes. I don't think many games come close to Thief's high points, but the lows can be really fucking boring.

[Anonymous No.8100628]

>>8100618
>but the lows can be really fucking boring.
faggot

[Anonymous No.8100640]

>>8100628
Ur dad

[Anonymous No.8100682]

>>8100314
yeah. Creating a full scale level out of the assets from Cragscleft, Markham's Isle and the Lost City would be cool.
>mine carts, drills, generators, elevators. various bits of machinery
>alternating violently between open areas actively occupied by work men and deeper, darker areas that are claustrophobic (even for a thief level).
>random veins of loot. Gold or silver and seams of magma.
>flooded sections, cave-ins, maybe a few mineshafts that offer you brief glimpses of the surface.

[Anonymous No.8101154]

>>8100682
Maybe really hone in on the Lovecraftian influences seen in The Lost City. Make it a horror level.

[Anonymous No.8101157]

>>8099806
PRAISE KARRAS

[Anonymous No.8101161]

>>8101154
Perhaps a gradual horror level. The further you go down, the less humans there are, the more supernatural and monsters there are. Burricks, spiders and such.
But I was thinking more fire elementals and fire shadows than just more haunts and zombies.
I don't know. Maybe you could evoke some real world folklore.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knocker_(folklore)
Or just a lot of ladders.

[Anonymous No.8101165]

>>8101154
Yeah I had that thought as well. It still is kind of a horror level with the elementals and kraymen, but that ambient hum and the isolation was begging for some out of left field unique stalker enemy to pop up out of nowhere.

[Anonymous No.8101237]

>>8100682
Mines also have a lot of potential for above ground shenanigans
>stealing processed ore
>stealing from the offices
>stealing from the worker lockers
>stealing from the assay office
>plenty of fire arrows
>complete the experience with at least one mandatory use of a sunburst device to break open a wall or exit.
Maybe set it during a shift change, so there's less people about

[Anonymous No.8101303]

>>8101237
And any mines could gradually transform into massive cave systems.
Something like
https://youtu.be/L8Lkii3YatE

[Anonymous No.8101402]

>>8100682
You're essentially describing Gems of Provenance.

[Anonymous No.8102719]

>>8099380
I wonder how big the difference is comparing the total size of thief 3 maps vs a thief 2 map. I'm sure a fair few T2 maps are larger, and I remember a few T3 maps were particularly small. Bit the average.

[Anonymous No.8102743]

>>8101402
valley of the burned has one of the best mine sections that I know of in FMs.
sadly it's painfully short, and is only used to lead you to some boring mansion

[Anonymous No.8102920]

just played through zontik's "Patriot" campaign.
like with most of his missions, getting through it is pure masochism. I had to use a walkthrough for a good portion of it.

the presentation is very good, however. it's a very pulpy spy thriller set during a war between the City and Blackbrook, in which Blackbrook is aided by mechanist technology. there's lots of voice overs and cutscenes.
the architecture is very good - the monastery in particular is stunningly beautiful.

one interesting aspect in the campaign is the approach to killing. there's never any rule against it - I suppose because everything is fair in war.
additionally, most of the missions actually require you to kill, usually indirectly. interestingly, indirect, "scripted" kills are also added to your killcount. for example, in one mission you blow up a factory. everyone inside is added to your killcount. in at least two instances, "mandatory" indirect kills involve neutral bystanders.

in short: a campaign with highs and lows. the highs are mostly related to the presentation, while the lows are related to the actual gameplay.
I don't recommend playing it as your first zontik mission

[Anonymous No.8103017]

>>8102719
I'm pretty sure Running Interference is already larger than any T3 map with Sneaky Tools included.

[Anonymous No.8103183]

>>8103017
I dunno about that, but you may be right. I just want to see a to-scale comparison. I guess I could open up the largest and smallest maps from both games and compare.

[Anonymous No.8105006]

which FM comes closest to this feel?

[Anonymous No.8105041]

Is there a mod to remove zombies from thief 1 to 3?
I stopped thief 1 at the second level because of that.

[Anonymous No.8105045]

>>8105041
you know you can stealth by zombies right?

[Anonymous No.8105056]

>>8105045
I just want them gone

[Anonymous No.8105059]

>>8105006
Melan's missions for me.

[Anonymous No.8106372]

>>8105006
Endless Rain. Crouching on gargoyles like Batman all of the night, bro

[Anonymous No.8107460]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCipnmKq-aU

[Anonymous No.8108245]

>>8107460
I love my Thief very dark but this is Doom 3 levels of dark.