/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.7905951]

>Love Metal Gear, Hitman and Deus Ex
>Enjoy Splinter Cell and System Shock
>Try to get into Thief, /v/ tells me to play on Expert
>Maps twice the size of your average nu Hitman level with less than a quarter of the interactivity; dozens of rooms are empty and therefore completely pointless
>Spend far, far more time searching for trinkets necessary to complete levels than I do actually engaging with the stealth mechanics
>Eventually use guide because they're hidden in asinine places like "in a tiny hidden panel beneath one specific fire pit in a level with dozens of fire pits" and there are no clues to this shit at all
Was I lied to? I came in wanting to play a stealth game, not a pixel hunt and this shit just isn't fun

[Anonymous No.7905959]

>>7905951
It's shit. The best stealth game is Manhunt.

[Anonymous No.7905963]

You fell for the memes

[Anonymous No.7906000]

Here we go, another thread where zoomers try and fail to play games that came out before they were born

[Anonymous No.7906005]

>every room must have loot because

[Anonymous No.7906019]

>>7906005
I didn't say that
I said that it has rooms that are completely empty, literally nothing in them whatsoever
And even a lot of the rooms that have things have nothing you can actually interact with, but since the game hides shit in completely retarded places you comb over them anyway and end up doing nothing but wasting a lot of time
I really don't like games that waste my time like this

[Anonymous No.7906160]

>>7905951
You weren't lied to, you just don't like it.

Half of the appeal of Thief is the multi-level 3D exploration of sprawling, nonlinear maps. On top of that is the easter egg hunt of finding loot in tucked-away places. If you just want to sneak past guards then you won't like 2/3 of the game.

Thief 1 especially is kind a stealthy dungeon-crawler. Thief 2 has levels that are more traditional "stealth game", though 3D exploration is still a huge part of it.

[Anonymous No.7906165]

>>7906019
>the game hides shit in completely retarded places
this is like getting insight into the mind of a guard NPC, lol

>wtf how was I supposed to know to look there???

How come this bothers you in Thief but not in Deus Ex? Deus Ex has tons of loot hidden under desks and behind corners and stuff like that. Sounds like you should play on Easy for a lower loot goal if you hate it that much.

[Anonymous No.7906171]

>>7906160
So, I've heard that higher difficulties open up new parts of the map, but my experience with the game so far is that the map size is needlessly bloated, so I thought I might enjoy it quite a bit more if I lowered the difficulty. I'd appreciate the game a lot more if it used all that empty space to give clues or whatever

>>7906165
Because Deus Ex generally doesn't require you to find that shit to complete the level.

[Anonymous No.7906176]

I don't expect modern players to have this experience, but I believe the way you're supposed to feel playing Thief 1 is something like this:
>I managed to sneak in, whew
>there's gotta be something valuable in here
>[starts rummaging through bookcases]
>oh shit, approaching footsteps

The game is trying to create an atmosphere of "it takes time to look for treasure" and "if you take too long you might get caught." It comes from old-school Dungeons & Dragons. I think the feeling of "you're not supposed to be here" and "you might get caught" are hard for modern players to feel especially if you prioritize eliminating the guards as efficiently as possible.

[Anonymous No.7906186]

>>7906176
Nah, I actually did get some of this experience, and that part legitimately is the most fun I've had with the game, why I haven't dropped it yet. I really enjoyed infiltrating Ramirez' mansion and being paranoid about all the footsteps I kept hearing. But then I stayed in the mansion for several hours looking for that damn silver poker, deliberately running into rooms full of guards so I could look for shit before finally giving up and going to gamefaqs, and most levels have been like this. I'm deliberately taking out almost every enemy now just because the search is such a pain in the ass that it would be unbearable to have to do it while also avoiding guards

[Anonymous No.7906187]

>>7906171
Personally I think "always play on Expert" is a bad meme. My preferred is ironman on Hard. But anyway, while it's true that some levels do have additional areas accessible on Expert, the changes aren't as significant as people make it sound, especially since Thief levels are still pretty huge as you're finding.

[Anonymous No.7906196]

>>7906186
Are you aware of the level skip cheat, CTRL-SHIFT-ALT-END? I would suggest resisting using it, but if you're REALLY sick of a level and it's either that or stop playing the game entirely, it'll take you to the "mission completed" screen and you can start the next mission with all of the loot you collected even if it was below the goal.

[Anonymous No.7906210]

>>7906171
>Because Deus Ex generally doesn't require you to find that shit to complete the level.
fair point

[Anonymous No.7906250]

>>7905951
>dozens of rooms are empty and therefore completely pointless
I think It's partly because they wanted the buildings to be modeled like an actual building, instead of feeling like a "videogame building" with linear corridors and nonsensical layouts, They wanted the entire map to loop around and not put you in any dead ends (when possible), these empty rooms you talk about might just serve as connectors for the rest of the map.
The lack of decoration or purpose to some rooms might be due to time or technical limitations too, as in the can't even cram any more objects in.
It's an early stealth game and some stuff was experimental, so the game has flaws for sure.
>>7906187
i think It's partly parroted by people who've been playing the game a lot and have forgotten what their first time was like.
I understand their intent to encourage new players to explore though, but you can still do that on a second playthrough with more experience

[Anonymous No.7906272]

>>7905951
It's a slow burn, it isn't for everyone.

I actually enjoy having to explore large levels with many empty rooms, there's something I like about being made to work for it. The sound design and the way Garrett move make the whole thing worth it for me.

Although even I think levels like Thieves Guild go too far, and it does bother me when playing on expert and I am like 40 gold short on loot and that's all I need to arbitrarily make the level end.

[Anonymous No.7906295]

>>7906272
Yeah, I heard about the levels Gold added being generally disliked, and even apart from that shit secret, there was stuff like the guards in the casino being nearly impossible to avoid and having to backtrack across practically the entire map after getting the key. Do the other two levels have stuff like that as well?

[Anonymous No.7906296]

>Play on Expert on first playthrough
This is a fucking meme that needs to die
They are fine for people who are playing the game for the 10x time and know every room layout, but any new player will have trouble finishing objectives on normal without a guide
>Hur dur git gud
Thief: Gold is especially guilty of this with Thieves guild and Undercover with hidden levers that need to be pressed in a specific time within each other

[Anonymous No.7906315]

>>7906296
I haven't needed a guide for any of the normal mode objectives; they have adequate in-game hints and usually involve the most important looking rooms on the map anyway.

[Anonymous No.7906362]

>>7906295
The other two gold only levels, Mage Towers and Song of the Caverns are better I think. They are mainly built around a large central hub, whereas the problem with Thieve's Guild is that the tunnels connecting the various smaller areas get tedious.

I didn't love The Haunted Cathedral, which was in the original, because in my opinion the expert loot requirement is too close to the maximum you can get in the level and some of it is pretty obscure.

[Anonymous No.7906401]

Congratulations anon. You have discovered the truth!
The cult following this game had was always a meme and every single person that enjoyed it was wrong or only pretending to like it.
But thanks to you and this thread we are finally free from this farce.

[Anonymous No.7906409]

>>7906296
I did and wouldn't have it any other way.
Sure, you can lower it one notch if you set out to only breeze through the levels and be done with the game forever after one run. But the expert objectives are the true way to experience the levels, as you'll get to explore them more thoroughly.

Only upside of playing on normal would be that you'll have more replay value, but then your first run would have been a botched playthrough.

[Anonymous No.7906612]

>>7906409
>you can lower it one notch if you set out to only breeze through the levels and be done with the game forever
>your first run would have been a botched playthrough

I'm sorry dude, but you sound like you're in a mental trap of your own making. Like you're afraid that if you don't pick Expert it's gonna be some kind of non-optimal first playthrough and then your chances of the perfect first-time experience are FOREVER RUINED. But that's not how Thief (and a lot of older games) were designed. A high difficulty mode like Expert is supposed to be a challenge run for people who are already familiar with not only the game's mechanics, but the level layouts.

>I'm going to try again, this time exploring even more of the level and finding even more loot
>and I'll do it without killing ANYONE this time

...and the game adds a few new surprises for players who think they know it all.

There's also the fact that the no-kill objective keeps a first-time player from experiencing some of the game's mechanics. If we really want players to get all the juice out of the game we should be encouraging more than one restricted playstyle.

[Anonymous No.7906893]

>>7905951
I never liked them either. The people who compare these to MGS are on the spectrum. I want to play a FUN game, not a medieval peasant simulator with some cringe esoteric lore.

[Anonymous No.7906912]

I dropped this game at the Mage Towers. Fuck spending literal hours each to finish giant, ugly, barren labyrinths.

[Anonymous No.7906936]

>>7906612
>A high difficulty mode like Expert is supposed to be a challenge run for people who are already familiar with not only the game's mechanics, but the level layouts.
This is how I've always played games and was floored to find out so many people here jump straight to hard.

[Anonymous No.7906968]

OP here, dropped the difficulty to Hard and tried out The Sword. I kinda get it now. This is the level I imagine they had in mind when they set out to make this game, it was an absolute 9/10 experience, only flaw being some guards being pretty hard to avoid due to narrow corridors. I kinda want to replay it on Expert already. Still though, I'm only halfway through the game and I really hope it doesn't head back downhill from here. Not being required to find the ridiculously obscure optional secret probably helped though

[Anonymous No.7907097]

>>7905951
I think the appeal of thief is less straightforward than 'goat stealth game', looking at it from a modern perspective a lot of the stealth amounts to the same tedious guard knockout whackamole you've probably encountered before. For me it was navigating an intricately designed gameworld not held back from console conventions, from a time where devs weren't required to treat the player like a bored asshole who could barely be expected to engage with the game. You really just don't see many games like thief made anymore that aren't crappy early access jank.

[Anonymous No.7907108]

>>7906000
anon this game came out within 2 fucking years of Metal Gear Solid 2, which is basically all around a far superior stealth game.
If Thief was some relic of 1994 (it certainly plays like it is) I would be more forgiving of its flaws but there's really not an excuse for its shoddiness (aside from it being western that is)

[Anonymous No.7907132]

play hard...but ironman the levels I.E. restart at the beginning of a mission when you die. A lot of what made level/mission based games from the 90s special was the rising action and climax of getting through a level in one go.

[Anonymous No.7907147]

>>7907108
>(it certainly plays like it is)
compare the control of thief to something chained to console conventions like the new deus ex games and you'll realize how tight it is in comparison.

[Anonymous No.7907148]

>>7907097
Well, as a stealth game, it's got some stuff going for it. It's the first game as far as I know to make use of light mechanics and also the first to make sound a persistent thing that applies everywhere and not just certain specific tiles. I also appreciate how it punishes you fucking hard for getting caught. Beating even a single guard in combat is unrealistic and it's pretty damn difficult to even get away from them since they run just as fast as you do and have night vision as long as you're in their line of sight (and for a good amount of time after they lose line of sight). And then even after you get away they tend to continue to prowling around looking for you instead of going back to normal patrol

>>7907132
No. I've died one too many times to the jank ass ladders for something like that

[Anonymous No.7907169]

>>7905951
see >>7905963
Thief is a loot/exploration game. Stealth mechanics are secondary.

[Anonymous No.7907183]

>>7907108
>(it certainly plays like it is)
The games have some jank but specifically 'how it plays' is pretty damn good especially with new mantle. No interruptions from extraneous animations, no console 'cover system' bullshit, play thief and then play something like nu deus ex and you'll realize how tight it was.

[Anonymous No.7907192]

>>7907108
MGS 2 is still an arcade. 3 is when the series took stealth more seriously.

[Anonymous No.7907203]

>>7907183
I'll say that the game is not very good at lining up the actual in-game lighting with how visible you are. Brightly lit and pitch dark areas are consistent, but anything in between can be a bit daft. I was just playing Thieves' Guild last night and it has some flickering lights in the casino and paradoxically I was more well hidden under the light than the shadows just outside the light, even with the light flickering on

[Anonymous No.7907527]

>>7907203
You're not incorrect, but that just emphasizes that you should look at the light gem frequently

[Anonymous No.7907553]

>>7907527
That's just poor design IMO. Hud elements are a crutch.

[Anonymous No.7907583]

>>7905959
brother?

[Anonymous No.7907673]

>Haunted Cathedral literally has a limit on what altitude you can jump at, game has no invisible walls but entire map covered with an invisible ceiling
Holy kek
I didn't have too bad of a time with it on Hard, but I was a bit shocked to find there was still 1000 gold left in the mission after I completed it. I can't think of anywhere I didn't explore thoroughly.

[Anonymous No.7907678]

>>7905959
Based.

[Anonymous No.7907697]

>>7907583

[Anonymous No.7908145]

>>7907673
That level is completely retarded. There's like diamonds on top of rafters of decrepit abandoned houses. Usually thief is pretty good about having loot be in logical areas, but it really felt like they just stuck things in the most pain in the ass hiding spots for that one.

[Anonymous No.7908524]

>>7905951
Yes the Thieves Guild is the most hated level in the entire series.

[Anonymous No.7908526]

>>7907673
>>7908145
The level is good but the loot requirement is retarded. It, along with that fucking key in the Thieves Guild firepit, were the only 2 times I ever had to look up a walkthrough.

[Anonymous No.7908534]

>>7906296
>Undercover
>Too hard on Expert the first time
Nigga what? The notes tell you where to go and the guards don't even attack you.

>>7906409
Same. Ghosting is the real meme. Game got way more enjoyable when I dropped that arbitrary shit and just played it normally.

[Anonymous No.7908562]

>>7905951
Taffer.

[Anonymous No.7908581]

>>7905951
I played on expert without a guide and never had problems with getting enough money, maybe you're just retarded.

[Anonymous No.7908609]

>>7908581
He was complaining about the key on the Thieves Guild, which honestly some serious bullshit.

[Anonymous No.7908612]

>>7906196

Mage's Guild has a bug where the platforms in the air tower will get stuck out of reach, so its useful to know just in case.

[Anonymous No.7908742]

>>7908145
>There's like diamonds on top of rafters of decrepit abandoned houses
I actually found that one since I was jumping around on the rooftops and looking down into houses. It was odd that there wasn't anything on the rooftops themselves. They're a bit hard to get up onto and there's quite a large amount of distance on them you can walk

[Anonymous No.7909525]

>>7905959
fpbp

[Anonymous No.7909554]

game would be better if guards could wake up at least.

[Anonymous No.7909619]

It runs flawlessly on controller. You even get pretty decent analog movement with steam analog pulse.

[Anonymous No.7910223]

>>7907108
>anon this game came out within 2 fucking years of Metal Gear Solid 2, which is basically all around a far superior stealth game.

[Anonymous No.7910240]

>>7910223
>have to edit a fps pic because too lazy to come up with one
the absolute state of thiefags

[Anonymous No.7910243]

>>7910240

[Anonymous No.7910246]

>>7910243
>wojak
yep not an argument

[Anonymous No.7910248]

>>7910246

[Anonymous No.7910251]

>>7910248
>>>/v/

[Anonymous No.7910256]

>>7910251

[Anonymous No.7910273]

>>7905951
Daggerfall has better stealth mechanics than theif

[Anonymous No.7910282]

>>7910256
>can't refute OP

[Anonymous No.7910290]

>>7910256
>intelligently designed levels
stopped reading there lmao, literal fucking corridors

[Anonymous No.7910302]

If the game is focused on exploration, why would it have empty rooms? That's dumb.
>Congratulations, you found nothing

[Anonymous No.7910307]

>>7910302
A lot of it seems to be bizarre commitment to symmetry
>one side of corridor has a room that's empty except for a nightstand that has a jewel on it
>other side of corridor has identical room that's completely empty
It's certainly very strange

[Anonymous No.7910554]

>>7910302
I really want to argue with this post but I don't know where to start. That's such a limited conception of what "exploration" is, for one, and I feel like I'd end up having to justify the concept of empty space at all. My blood pressure is rising as I type this and retyped it three times already.

That said, if your REAL point is more like "some levels have boring parts" then sure, that can happen.

[Anonymous No.7910583]

>>7910554
>"some levels have boring parts"
Bad level design and a waste of resources, plain and simple. Get mad over facts if you want, just don't try to rationalize finding fucking nothing in an exploration game as something good. I don't have to explain why making a game intentionally boring is fucking stupid.

[Anonymous No.7910596]

>>7910583
Perhaps.

[Anonymous No.7910607]

>>7910554
Bro you need to get up and walk around high blood pressure is no joke I almost had a stroke last week.

[Anonymous No.7910628]

>>7907192
while i agree, to an extent... mgs2 had better ai mechanics for guards, as well as having many physics based stuff that had to created without a physics engine. also, collecting dogtags was fucking great.

[Anonymous No.7910636]

>>7910223
what a fucking retard. mgs has a soloton radar in the game that shows how complex the maps actually are.

[Anonymous No.7910640]

>>7910223

[Anonymous No.7910641]

>>7910302
To hide yourself / corpses in.
It also add variety to the game. When you open a room sometimes you get a treasure, sometimes an obstacle and occasionally nothing. Adding the -occasional- empty room is pretty common in dungeon making for PnP rpgs.
Finally there might be reasons of realism. It's not unusual for big old mansions to have room with nothing but some unused furniture.

Frankly speaking I don't see why you find this to be such an huge issue. It takes a few seconds to scan an empty room.

[Anonymous No.7910647]

>>7910641
>To hide yourself / corpses in.
I thought stealth was secondary. Besides, not having pointless rooms would heighten the stealth challenge.
>Realism
A blight on videogames.

[Anonymous No.7910653]

>>7910641
>It takes a few seconds to scan an empty room.
*Not counting the time and resources required to get to said room. Hope you didn't need extra moss/water arrows.

[Anonymous No.7910659]

>>7910647
>I thought stealth was secondary. Besides, not having pointless rooms would heighten the stealth challenge.
That was my first post in the thread. But even if stealth was secondary is still part of the game.
>A blight on videogames.
Only if it gets in the way of the gameplay.

>>7910653
You don't always get rewarded for using resources. Fun of exploration is not knowing what you'll get, and occasionally getting nothing add to the uncertainty.

[Anonymous No.7910829]

>>7905951
It took me like 3 solid attempts over the span of several years to finally 'get' it. It's a good game, though.

[Anonymous No.7910839]

>>7908524
Filtered me my second attempt, nearly did on the third til I finally found a crucial key. I find it hard to believe it's the the most hated level when Escape exists.

[Anonymous No.7910850]

>>7910653
when I played Thief I never felt like the game tricked me into wasting moss and water arrows to get past a tricky part only to reward me with an empty dead-end room

usually the most "high security" areas w/ lots of light, noisy floors, and guards are important areas for either loot, objectives, or just traversing the level

[Anonymous No.7910864]

People aren't going to want to hear this but when I finally got deep into this game, I really was reminded of Dark Souls (exploring the large tree in the last level, Lost City looking a lot like Lost City Izalith, pagan/chaotic themes similar to parts in DS2) and
I do think it influenced the series and FromSoftware a fair bit overall. I don't think it's a stretch. They're westaboos and clearly played Ultima Underworld so why not this?

[Anonymous No.7910873]

>>7905951
People aren't going to want to hear this but when I finally got deep into this game, I really was reminded of Dark Souls (exploring the large tree in the last level, Lost City looking a lot like Lost City Izalith, pagan/chaotic themes similar to parts in DS2) and I do think it influenced the series and FromSoftware a fair bit overall. I don't think it's a stretch. They're westaboos and clearly played Ultima Underworld so why not this?

[Anonymous No.7911890]

>>7910839
Escape is fucking awful but it took me around 5-10 minutes while I wasted 2 hours on Thieves Guild

[Anonymous No.7912287]

>>7905959
Dangerously based