/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.7686821]

I just wonder why Sega didn't immediately tell the dev team on X-treme to completely start over with a good concept this time after the first footage of Super Mario 64 got out there. X-treme instantly looked like dated garbage. So why did the development continue to the point that it almost killed a man if it was literally pointless? The game would have been underwhelming at best even if it were released in time for Christmas 1996, no possible way it would have really helped the Saturn's sales all that much. Why did Sega just let the game keep going?
Digging into the X-treme story just makes me think that Sega deserved to go down, the company was a complete fucking mess of horrible ideas.

[Anonymous No.7686878]

It's sort of bind boggling that a full game wasn't released of Sonic Jam's 3D areas.

[Anonymous No.7686907]

>>7686878
>>7686878
It isn't bind boggling because by the time Sanic Team really got working on Saturn, it would have taken more time than the Saturn had left to really finish the project. Between Sonic Adventure on the Saturn or the Dreamcast in 1998, it definitely should have been on the Dreamcast. It was a choice between the two.

[Anonymous No.7686981]

>>7686907
The bind boggling part is that it took them so long to really start working on it

[Anonymous No.7687021]

>>7686981
They decided to go all in on NiGHTS for some reason and left the B team to work on Bug! 3: Sonic edition instead

[Anonymous No.7687257]

>>7686821
Such a forced game when the hardware wasn't yet up to the task

[Anonymous No.7687269]

>>7686821
>>7686878

..hmm hmm...
*blocks your path*

Go play Balan, or even better, Legend of Coin, a far more better game with a revolutionary concept brought to life, made all by me.

[Anonymous No.7687282]

>>7686878
This should have been a launch title, not Bug!

[Anonymous No.7687301]

>>7687282
Gameplay sucks and there is no point in running around this empty arena. You think this could compete with Mario 64, really?
Bug actually has a beginning, a middle and an end.

[Anonymous No.7687316]

>>7686821
>why Sega didn't immediately tell the dev team on X-treme to completely start over with a good concept this time after the first footage of Super Mario 64 got out there
because they were a trainwreck. 94–95 Sega made some of their most retarded decisions like making 32X

[Anonymous No.7687326]

>>7686821
I like to imagine they were yelling "SEGA!" like in the commercials, except doing so while frantically smacking their hands against keyboards desperately trying to get this thing finished.

[Anonymous No.7687430]

>>7686821
>Tiara Boobowski
OHNONONONONO

[Anonymous No.7687469]

>>7686821
>that it almost killed a man
Hm?

[Anonymous No.7687470]

>>7686821
Considering SEGA had the option to work with Silicon Graphics before Nintendo did and SEGA said no, and then SEGA had the chance to work with Sony after Sony had been shot down by Nintendo and SEGA again said no, I'd say the grave they dug themselves was already set in stone and shit like this was the inevitable consequence.

[Anonymous No.7687493]

>>7687470
SEGA systems could still be around today had they just made the right decisions. I remember reading they had the chance to work with Microsoft on what eventually became the Xbox but also denied it. I have no idea what it is about Japan with their pride to literally run their business into the floor instead of working with another company.

[Anonymous No.7687514]

>>7687469
Google it, dumbass.

[Anonymous No.7687557]

>>7686821
If it would have looked like this it would have been a fun game. Its not fair that Mario 64 just annihilated the platformer competition.

[Anonymous No.7687567]

>>7686821
>after the first footage of Super Mario 64 got out there. X-treme instantly looked like dated garbage
Really?
Platforming games that came out a decade later resembled Sonic X-treme more than Mario 64. Different != Outdated
If anything you could claim that Mario 64 itself was always outdated. Platformers before it were linear and platformers after it were linear, even most Mario games.
Turns out wide open levels doesn't really make for a good platforming game unless you add something else to it like guns in Ratchet & Clank.

[Anonymous No.7687620]

>>7686878

[Anonymous No.7687629]

>>7687620
column on the right

[Anonymous No.7687637]

>>7687620

[Anonymous No.7687702]

Saturn doesn't need a Sonic. You WILL play Nights and you WILL like it.

[Anonymous No.7687759]

>>7687269

[Anonymous No.7687803]

>>7687702
Nights gets boring so fast, though, and yes I've A-ranked all the stages. Flying around just isn't as interesting or fun as actual platforming.

[Anonymous No.7687821]

>>7686821
It was mostly the American team that was extremely stubborn and convinced they couldn't let the Genesis die and that they could only succeed with Sonic. Unfortunately for them most of the actual game design and development talent was in Japan.
>>7686878
It probably would have been a full game had Sega of America not dropped the ball with the Saturn and demanded a new system like children. Sonic Adventure was originally to be released on the Saturn around 1998.
>>7686907
>>7686981
>by the time Sanic Team really got working on Saturn,
They were really working on Saturn from the start. Just because it wasn't on a game you like doesn't change the fact they were working on it.
>>7687257
The hardware is certainly capable of it. Sonic 3D Blasts special stages, Sonic R, and Sonic Jam are all proof that it could work in the hands of competent developers.
>>7687021
Put yourself in Sonic Teams Shoes. You've been forced to make nothing but Sonic Games for the past ~6 years. You'd be burnt out too and wanting to do something else. Even Miyamoto and his teams weren't forced to do something like that. They'd make a Mario game, but then go on to make something like Zelda, or Star Fox, etc.

[Anonymous No.7687836]

>>7687269
Naka-sama, I kneel.

[Anonymous No.7688126]

>>7687430
She looks like she fucks human men

[Anonymous No.7688147]

>>7687821
>You'd be burnt out too and wanting to do something else. Even Miyamoto and his teams weren't forced to do something like that. They'd make a Mario game, but then go on to make something like Zelda, or Star Fox, etc.
Don't get me wrong I can get that, but Sega would've been completely in the right for forcing them considering how the competition was heating up in the console market and how much the Saturn was costing them money in the west.

[Anonymous No.7688152]

>>7688147
And from a management point of view doing that is how you lose good people. That would have most likely just lead them to quitting and going and working for the competition.

[Anonymous No.7688263]

>>7687821
>It was mostly the American team that was extremely stubborn and convinced they couldn't let the Genesis die and that they could only succeed with Sonic.
and they were right on both accounts

[Anonymous No.7688295]

>>7688263
This. Should've let the Genesis live until 1997, released the Dreamcast (with 3dfx instead of PowerVR GPU) instead of the Shiturn, and Sega would have never gone under.

[Anonymous No.7688313]

>>7687493
>Meanwhile Sony has been ruined by their California branch

[Anonymous No.7688347]

>>7688263
Were they? They put out a failed 32-bit add on that sucked resources out of the Saturn and took games away that would have been good Saturn launch titles. Had they simply not done the 32X and focused those resources into the Saturn they could have been on a much better foot that they could have gone without a Sonic game for another year or so when Sonic Team was ready. After all Sonic Team just gave them Sonic 3 + Knuckles in 1994. A new Saturn Sonic wasn't going to be ready by the 95 launch window.

In the end they had failed add-on that ended up severely crippling the launch of their new system, and the Genesis was dead as no good new software was coming out/ All of Sega's Japanese dev teams as well as most third parties had moved on to the next gen systems.
>>7688295
Genesis technically did live until 1997, there was no new good major software coming out for it though.It was budget stuff. All the main third parties had moved on as well as Sega's Japanese teams. Sega of Americas dev teams weren't as good as people try to claim and it really shows with the Saturn.
>released the Dreamcast (with 3dfx instead of PowerVR GPU)
That would have been even worse. The 3DFX hardware would have been ancient by the time the PS2 came out and the PowerVR hardware was overall better than whatever 3DFX was trying to sell them. There's a reason why the PowerVR architecture is still around and 3DFX isn't.

[Anonymous No.7688473]

>>7687821
>Put yourself in Sonic Teams Shoes. You've been forced to make nothing but Sonic Games for the past ~6 years. You'd be burnt out too and wanting to do something else.
They’re part of a business, not an art studio. The Saturn lacking a mainline Sonic release is a large reason why that system failed and why Sega was eventually forced to go third party.

[Anonymous No.7688484]

>>7688473
>business function fine without accounting for burnout
How about no?

[Anonymous No.7688612]

>>7688347
SoA didn't want anything to do with the 32X or the Saturn. SoJ wanted to created a "Genesis 2" because the stupid nips were shitting themselves over the fucking Jaguar, and SoA eventually talked them into just making it an add-on. No one at SoA liked the Saturn from the beginning, pointed out that it sucked at 3D which the vast majority of games would be using moving forward, and tried to license SGI tech but SoJ shot the deal down.
The Genesis performed fine and its games were still selling just as well as any other consoles all the way up until 97. The Saturn was a horrible rushed console with bad tech, and as you said yourself no ability for any Sonic game (or any other popular Genesis series) to be ready anywhere near its launch.
They needed to scrap the Saturn, ride the Genesis until at least the end of 96, and then release something that trumped the PS1 and competed with the N64 tech wise that would carry them until 2001 which considering how thing played out, would probably a partnership with Microsoft on the Xbox.

[Anonymous No.7688619]

>>7688473
> The Saturn lacking a mainline Sonic release is a large reason why that system failed and why Sega was eventually forced to go third party.
Ok where is the Sonic game going to come from in time for the Saturn's launch in 1994 in Japan? Sonic Team at this point is still working on Sonic 3 for the Genesis. So we wont hit that window, but surely the September 95 window is doable. Oh wait, half of Sonic Team is now forced to make Knuckles Chaotix for that 32X add-on while the other half is trying to get up to speed on how the Saturn works, and the team is still burnt out on Sonic from Sonic 3 and Chaotix. So the soonest we can look towards at this point is 1996, which is when we got NiGHTS.
>So they should have made a Sonic instead of NiGHTS!
And if Sega forced them into that they would have likely left the company.

[Anonymous No.7688653]

>>7688612
>SoJ wanted to created a "Genesis 2" because the stupid nips were shitting themselves over the fucking Jaguar, and SoA eventually talked them into just making it an add-on.
The correct thing SoA should have done is assure SoJ that the Jaguar was a joke and not a serious threat, and to instead focus on the Saturn, Genesis, and Sega CD.
> No one at SoA liked the Saturn from the beginning.
And that was part of the problem, eventually you have to realize it's the product you have to support and support it as best you can. SoA instead acted like whiny children.
>pointed out that it sucked at 3D
Except it really didn't suck at 3D when used well. The dual SH-2 setup is more than capable of calculating polygons just as fast as the PS1, and VDP1 isn't nearly as bad as people try to make it out to be. The Saturn simply showed that the development talent at Sega was in the Japanese devs, not the US devs.
> tried to license SGI tech but SoJ shot the deal down.
Because the Saturn was already done and going into production at that point. Plus we don't know what exactly SGI showed them.
>The Genesis performed fine and its games were still selling just as well as any other consoles all the way up until 97
But not as well as the PS1 or N64 at that point. The Genesis at that point was a budget console and the new software had dried up not just from Sega of Japan but from Third Parties as well.
> The Saturn was a horrible rushed console with bad tech
It's not nearly as bad as people have been lead to believe. It could have been successful had Sega of America not dropped the ball with it.
>They needed to scrap the Saturn, ride the Genesis until at least the end of 96
But that wouldn't have worked as well as you think. Sega in Japan NEEDED a new console. The Mega Drive was dead there. And with the PS1 taking off as it did Sega would have quickly become irrelevant and they would be fighting an uphill battle for third parties.

[Anonymous No.7688716]

>>7688653
This is already a wasted conversation because I can tell you're just some weeb who's never going to admit grorius nippon could make mistakes but whatever.
>The correct thing SoA should have done is assure SoJ that the Jaguar was a joke and not a serious threat, and to instead focus on the Saturn, Genesis, and Sega CD.
They did, and it didn't matter. What are you going to do when the CEO of a company tells you they're making a product, and you're going to market it? Same thing with the Saturn, it didn't matter that they hated it, it didn't matter they had made an entire advertising campaign around a "Saturnday" and the idiotic idea of a surprise launch was doomed to fail. The japs got butthurt at stupid gaijin trying to tell them they were wrong and kept forcing shit down their throat until basically the entire American office told them to fuck off and quit.
>Except it really didn't suck at 3D when used well...The Saturn simply showed that the development talent at Sega was in the Japanese devs, not the US devs.
Fan fiction, Sega's best in house teams couldn't get full 3D to run on the thing. The best you got was Burning Rangers running at literal single digit FPS half the time and most games never even reaching 30. The Saturn was shit at every technological level.
>But not as well as the PS1 or N64 at that point.
Madden 97 sold more on the Genesis than the PS1, you can't get more mainstream than the Madden series. The Geneis was still perfectly capable of selling software. Sega themselves moved back to it in 97 after mercy killing the Saturn.
>Sega in Japan NEEDED a new console. The Mega Drive was dead there.
And who give a shit? America was the main market, and the only one where they were ever #1 and the Saturn didn't light Japan on fire. It was a Virtua Fighter machine and not much else. It got crushed by the PS1 and sold 300k more than the N64 while destroying the company everywhere else.

[Anonymous No.7688792]

>>7688716
>I can tell you're just some weeb
And you're someone who thinks SoA could do no wrong. From interviews with Hideki Sato we know that SoA was pushing for a 68020 based system. That wouldn't have been up to the task of 3D at all and it's no wonder SoJ ignored them and went with the Dual SH-2 set up.
>They did, and it didn't matter
Proof that they tried to tell SoJ not to worry about the Jaguar and not do the 32X? Everything I've seen states they were all on board with the idea of the 32X.
>The japs got butthurt
This is fanfiction. This comes from one or two interviews with SoA people but there's literally no evidence of it from other interviews from both Japanese and other American developers.
>Sega's best in house teams couldn't get full 3D to run
> most games never even reaching 30
Look at all these 30fps and 60fps Saturn games with 3D Graphics:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzkBIPzB81M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4P0KFEhiFbE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGFJlNcZnDY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M79b-23vt6s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ybv1OycIQnQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOHul97vFFQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Spw8YoYrUc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4727XMUrp3k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIBH6dcRt7E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzAaUjihFl8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgkqE00APNo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu-XE_kJXqs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vko1ZW-GOsg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q2eNeBPxWs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUyhbhJ5jqI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0q5TUE4edN0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnGUhhoNhdQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BE9iRundx_0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOn0yoomuLU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvWUXl3wcg8
>Madden 97 sold more on the Genesis than the PS1
When the only game still selling is a sports title, it's time to move on.

[Anonymous No.7688871]

>>7688792
>And you're someone who thinks SoA could do no wrong.
You can't do anything wrong or right when you're not allowed to do anything. SoA from about 94 on was a fucking drone company because SoJ got butthurt they were actually beating Nintendo, and didn't want to jump on the Saturn when they had no reason to.
>we know that SoA was pushing for a 68020 based system.
This was extremely early in design and was quickly scrapped because SoA wanted to partner with Sony, and then SGI, and even had contracts written up for both that SoJ shot down because they were obsessed with the Saturn. SoA knew the tech side of Sega was dogshit and wanted to go semi or even full third party for years before they actually did.
>Proof that they tried to tell SoJ not to worry about the Jaguar and not do the 32X?
History of Video Games by Steven Kent. Contains an interview with multiple SoA employees. One outright states something to the effect of "If all it does is double the colors thats a horrible idea for a new console, if you have to release it, make it an add-on, but no thats a horrible idea"
I still own the book somewhere and can find it if I need to.
>This is fanfiction.
SoJ being butthurt over the success of the American branch while they continually failed in their home country is one of the most widely accepted stories concerning Sega you dolt. Why do you think every single thing about the Saturn was catered only to the Japanese market, with 0 regard for any other?
>Look at all these 30fps and 60fps Saturn games with 3D Graphics:
There is not a single full 3D game here that runs close to 60FPS, even the ones at 60, are mostly 2D outside of certain elements and you also have emulation boosted shit like Powerslave. How retarded are you?
>When the only game still selling is a sports title, it's time to move on.
Funny you mention that, considering Madden 97 is also the highest selling Saturn game outside Japan. Glad you agree with SoA it was time to move on from the Saturn.

[Anonymous No.7688978]

>>7688619
Wow, sega was a fucking wreck, miracle any of their shit ever came out to begin with

[Anonymous No.7688983]

>>7688871
>SoJ was butthurt!
Again this is hyperbole that has just been repeated enough times that people think it's fact. It doesn't add up with actual evidence.
>That was early in design!
Saturn's design was finalized by 1993. The stuff with Sony and SGI was in late 93 early 94. If SoA wanted their input taken more seriously the should have brought it up sooner.
>History of Video Games by Steven Kent.
Which has things in it that have been called into question because of more recent interviews. And again even your quote doesn't even state that they tried to tell SoJ not to take the Jaguar seriously and that they should focus on the Saturn.
>Butthurt SoJ!
See previous comments.
>THEY USED THE HARDWARE EFFECTIVELY! ITS NOT TRUE 3D!!!!!
Cry me a river. Plenty of PS1 and N64 games use 2D assets as well. What do you think Tekken 3 does on the PS1 to maintain a decent frame rate with decent character models?
>The Powerslave footage was emulated!
From the video:
>Captured directly from a European Sega Saturn at 60hz using RGB Scart via a scart upscaler in order for it to work with an Elgato Game Capture HD.

>Glad you agree with SoA it was time to move on from the Saturn.
Oh aren't you clever. The thing is, SoA didn't even try with the Saturn. If they did things could have played out differently. That's the point being made.

[Anonymous No.7688992]

>>7688978
You do realize it takes time to make a decent video game right?

[Anonymous No.7688994]

>>7688347
>All the main third parties had moved on
Yeah, they moved on to the PS1 all right
LOL!

[Anonymous No.7689004]

>>7688992
The point was the many conflicting schedules with fragmented teams working on three different consoles at once to the detriment of the new console desperate for a sonic title.

[Anonymous No.7689006]

>>7688871
>even the ones at 60, are mostly 2D outside of certain elements
dead or alive, last bronx, stellar assault and mass destruction are "mostly 2d" now?
here are some more games he forgot to mention
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chiE9ZaL10g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMu0kVzDQjg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51Tv8Z8OC0w

[Anonymous No.7689021]

>>7688994
Yep, as well as the Saturn in Japan. Saturn actually had some decent third party support early on in the US and Europe, and for most of it's lifespan in Japan.
>>7689004
Which is why Cancelling the 32X is the most reasonable and realistic altered history. With that you'd get the best of the 32X library as launch titles for the Saturn, which would include a more polished Knuckles Chaotix at launch that could have possibly became a more traditional Sonic game. Really though it doesn't change that by late 1994 Sonic Team had just finished Sonic 3 + Knuckles. Less than a year to make a new sonic game for a new console is a pretty tight schedule.

[Anonymous No.7689047]

>>7688983
>Again this is hyperbole that has just been repeated enough times that people think it's fact. It doesn't add up with actual evidence.
Interviews with people revealing things you don't like isn't hyperbole its you being a butthurt weeb just like SoJ
>Saturn's design was finalized by 1993. The stuff with Sony and SGI was in late 93 early 94. If SoA wanted their input taken more seriously the should have brought it up sooner.
This has nothing to do with what you brought up originally. I already said the Saturn should have been scrapped once everyone realized it wasn't fit to serve the upcoming market standards.
>And again even your quote doesn't even state that they tried to tell SoJ not to take the Jaguar seriously and that they should focus on the Saturn.
What part of "No that's a horrible idea." do you not understand? And why would they tell anyone to focus on the Saturn when they all hated it and wanted to continue to support the Genesis as its sales and support were still strong? Stop creating things in your head.
>ITS NOT TRUE 3D
Yeah because its not, because the Saturn can't do full 3D, and when it tries it performs like shit. For examples see a full 3D game like Burning Rangers, which looks and runs like shit despite being made by one of Sega's main teams and at the end of the consoles life when they had plenty of time to understand how to develop for it.
>Captured directly from a European Sega Saturn at 60hz
Are you a literal fucking retard? A screen being 60hz doesn't make a game 60fps. The game runs at 30fps, and dips constantly even lower than that.

[Anonymous No.7689069]

>>7688983
It's not like SoA didn't have plenty of opportunities either with the Saturn, they had developers like Lobotomy Software try and go above and beyond with third party ports of games like Duke 3D and Quake. Even if they werent that great, they probably should've formed a better relationship with them. That and they had tons of arcade ports and fighters in Japan, cult classics like Castlevania, even the House of the Dead 1 port while not great should've received more support with how popular the series is.
Also the infamous "Saturn is not our future" line really fucked them over hard, they should've just pulled a Nintendo and lied through their teeth, even if it's obvious that they have other plans just to keep sales going.

[Anonymous No.7689074]

>>7688983
>>7689047
>SoA didn't even try with the Saturn. If they did things could have played out differently. That's the point being made.
SoA couldn't try anything because they had to run everything they did through the pissed off Japs, who did nothing but bitch and moan that Americans weren't spending $400 to play Virtua Fighter and jackshit else. Maybe if they had a Sonic, Streets of Rage, Joe Montana, or literally any other popular Genesis franchise on the console instead it might not have been such an issue. You're literally pissed off that SoJ was retarded and spent all their effort marketing a console at a single country and then was shocked it flopped everywhere else when people didn't want to pay $400 for a console and then $50 to play badly ported 15 minute long arcade games that no one gave a shit about to begin with since arcades were dead in the west outside of Mortal Kombat and Street Fighter.

[Anonymous No.7689089]

>>7689069
>That and they had tons of arcade ports and fighters in Japan
All of which the PS1 also got and ran fine outside of 3-4 which used the RAM expansion carts, and ran equally as shitty or not at all without.
>cult classics like Castlevania
You mean the one single Castlevania game on the console which runs like complete and total dogshit on the Saturn with constant framedrops and worse visuals, and is better in every single way on the PS1?

[Anonymous No.7689107]

>>7689047
>It's from old interviews!
Correction it's from one or two and they don't align with more recent interviews from other people on both sides of the pacific. They're outliers that sound more like someone venting some old grudge than an accurate portrayal of what really happened.
>So they should have scrapped it!
They had already started making games for it and were putting out devkits and early hardware by that point. And again, the hardware did serve the upcoming standards. Just because some incompetent devs like STI couldn't figure it out doesn't mean it wasn't capable hardware.
>He said "No that's a horrible idea to a Genesis with more colors!"
Where does he actually try and tell Sega of Japan not to worry about the Jaguar. That's why they were pushing for a new console.
>IT'S NOT TRUE 3D!!!!
Ok, how many PS1 and N64 games do you want to eliminate then because quite a few of them use 2D Assets as well. Should we throw out Mario 64 because all the Bob-Ombs are 2D sprites?
>Saturn can't do full 3D without poor performance!!!
Sure it can when it's handled properly.
>But BURNING RANGERS!!!!
Is a rushed and incomplete game that's doing a lot of crazy shit in the background.
>60Hz doesn't equal 60fps!
Are YOU retarded? I didn't say Powerslave was 60fps. I listed it in a list of games that were either 30fps or 60fps. Powerslave was a 30fps example. And no it doesn't constantly dip below 30fps. It actually holds it pretty well. But if we're going to count dips below 30fps, then again we should probably start throwing out quite a few PS1 and N64 games as well. Should we throw out all the Rare games on the N64 because they all fail to maintain 30fps and are usually in the 10-15fps range? How about all the Final Fantasy games on PS1 that run at less than 15fps in battles?

[Anonymous No.7689116]

>>7689074
>SoA couldn't do anything because the mad japanese!!!
They could have talked Sega of Japan out of the 32X, cancelled it, and prepped the Saturn for a better launch instead of acting like whiny children.
> Maybe if they had a Sonic, Streets of Rage, Joe Montana, or literally any other popular Genesis franchise on the console instead it might not have been such an issue
Where was the Sonic game going to come from? Sonic Team had just finished Sonic 3 + Knuckles and rushed Chaotix out the door for the 32X. Joe Montana was already a dead franchise by this point and Streets of Rage 3 wasn't that big of a seller either. If they wanted a football game they should have probably reached out to EA to put the 3DO version of Madden on Saturn for launch and call it Madden 96.
>You're literally pissed off that SoJ was retarded blah blah blah
And you're just regurgitating very old info and rumors that have since been either disproven or had enough conflicting info brought up to cast serious doubt on them.

[Anonymous No.7689167]

>>7689107
>They're outliers that sound more like someone venting some old grudge than an accurate portrayal of what really happened.
Yeah bro, every single SoA employee all decided to start making up stories about SoJ being a bunch of butthurt assholes around 94 and continuing it for years after. All these seperate divisions and people due to the massive turnover over a span of 5ish years are all lying as long brewing payback for pearl harbor. The fact nips hate anyone encroaching on their ideas, especially americans, and their idiotic business culture where its better to fail then admit a mistake has nothing to do with it.
>And again, the hardware did serve the upcoming standards.
Is that why every single shared 3D game between the PS1 and Saturn looks and runs worse on the Saturn? Is that why numerous devs have said the Saturn couldn't run games? The Saturn couldn't even run a game with tons of 2D assets like RE2, much less games like Dino Crisis, or Vagrant Story.
>Sure it can when it's handled properly.
No, it literally can't. Tomb Raider, on the Saturn is shit. Burning Rangers on the Saturn is shit. Daytona is shit. Wipeout is shit. There is no magic forumla to make the Saturn capable of rendering full 3D games on an equal level as the PS1. This is why Sega rushed the Dreamcast out the door, because the gap between the Saturn and PS1/N64 was growing more and more obvious by the release.
>They could have talked Sega of Japan out of the 32X, cancelled it,
Why are you continuously placing the blame on a division that was given a shit piece of hardware and forced to sell it, instead of the retarded division who forced it out the door despite everyone objecting to it? Are you so fucking stupid you don't see how you're literally making my own point for me that SoJ didn't give a shit about anything but what they wanted and wouldn't listen to anything else and tanked the company because of that?

[Anonymous No.7689181]

>>7686821
Why didnt they simply show them Mario 64 ans tell them to do the same thing, but with Sonic instead?

[Anonymous No.7689198]

>>7689116
>Where was the Sonic game going to come from?
Which is a reason I already said the Saturn should have been dropped and they should have waited until the end of 96 and rode the genesis until then, as its sales were still plently strong.
>Joe Montana was already a dead franchise by this point
Joe Montana 94 was the highest selling football game on the console over any Madden game, it was eclipsed by NFL 98, a game which was released in 97 after SoA gave up on the Saturn and proved that even in fucking 1997 the console still had plenty of strength in the market as it sold over 1 million copies. Now imagine if instead of forcing a console, that had horrible tech, that was horrible to develop for, and had no games, they had dropped it and rode the Genesis for another year or two and then made a console that could actually compete with either Sony or Nintendo.
>If they wanted a football game
They didn't want a football game because the Japanese didn't care about football. Which is why it took them almost 2 fucking years to release a goddamn football game, despite the sports titles consistently being some of the highest selling Genesis games.
Once again this is yet more proof that all Sega cared about at the time was Japan and everything was made for Japan and then SoJ did nothing but call everyone else retarded when they didn't want to play Virtua Fighter for 15 hours a day.

[Anonymous No.7689217]

>>7689167
>It was every single SoA employee!
Was it really? Last I heard it was only 1 or 2 from years ago. Kalinske and I think the one guy who was involved in the 32X? Most other interviews from both SoA employees and SoJ employees of the time describe a different situation.
>Is that why every single shared 3D game between the PS1 and Saturn looks and runs worse on the Saturn?
Do they now? Last I checked Dead or Alive, Mass Destruction, Grandia, Madden, Fifa, NHL Powerplay 96, Thunder Force V, etc. all looked and ran on par with the PS1 or better on Saturn.
>Is that why numerous devs have said the Saturn couldn't run games?
Numerous incompetent devs.
>It couldn't run RE2!!!!
Resident Evil 1 and Deep Fear run just fine on it. RE2 was simply cancelled because the Dreamcast was coming out and Capcom felt that had a better chance of selling.
>Tomb Raider!
Was an early title that was rushed out early for the Saturn in an incomplete state.
>Daytona USA!
Early title, rushed out. Sega Rally and Daytona CCE prove it could have been better.
>Burning Rangers!
Already covered this, rushed incomplete game that's doing a ton of shit in the background.
>Wipeout!
There's actually an AR code that disables the frame rate cap. The game will actually run at 30fps with only a few occasional dips with that AR code enabled. Probably with more optimization it could have ran at the full 30fps.
> Why wont you blame SoJ!!!!
Because SoJ was dealt the same hand and actually made it work. SoA instead sat around and cried about it.

[Anonymous No.7689227]

>>7689198
>No Sonic No new console!
That's stupid. Japan needed a new console at this point and wanted to port their arcade games home at this point. Genesis was starting to decline in the west too contrary to what you make think.
>Joe Montana was the 2nd best football game to Madden!
But was declining. It wasn't going to sell Saturns.
>Saturn Bad! Genesis Good!
Keep regurgitating that. It won't change things.
>They couldn't have football games because of Japan!
Really? SoJ wouldn't let them make a football game? They wouldn't let them talk to EA about porting a Madden game? I find that very hard to believe. Especially considering they DID have a football game for Saturn in 95 from another third party dev.

[Anonymous No.7689273]

>>7689217
>Most other interviews from both SoA employees and SoJ employees of the time describe a different situation.
Such as? Because theres tons of accounts from any higher up at SoA at the time about how miserable and overbearing SoJ was, to the point Peter Moore literally told all of them to go fuck themselves during a meeting and quit.
>all looked and ran on par with the PS1
Funny how all those sport games stopped being made for the Saturn after they switched the player models from 2D sprites to full 3D models. Almost as if the Saturn couldn't run them worth a shit. But at least the floor titles in the starting town of Grandia are aligned properly, thats worth the $400.
>every Saturn game that runs like shit is just because the devs were lazy, the game was rushed, some other stupid cope.
Literally pathetic. The console couldn't run games. Quit deluding yourself. The extra 11 days between the Saturn and PS1 version of Tomb Raider did jackshit, Daytona ran like shit and had a major downgrade even in the "fixed" version, and Buring Rangers was one of the last games released on the console. Anything that could have been done with the Saturn was, again there is no magic button to make it comparable to other consoles in 3D performance. It's not, it can't be, and it never will be. There is 0 chance of a Saturn being able to run a game like Dino Crisis.
>and actually made it work
Selling 300k more consoles than your closet competition while losing literally hundreds just by making them, and getting completely stomped by Sony, while simultaniously destroying your market in every other country on earth is "making it work?" The Saturn wasn't some titanic success in Japan that legends are spoke of, it rode the wave of Virtua Fighter 1 and 2 and then faded out of relevance very quickly after, especially after FF7 was released.

[Anonymous No.7689301]

>>7689227
>Japan needed a new console at this point and wanted to port their arcade games home at this point.
Japan was a completely irrelevant market that meant jack shit in the grand scheme, as the Saturn itself proves. Sega had constantly failed in Japan, not only to Nintendo but even shit like the Turbographx. Rushing out the Saturn because Japan needed it is yet again more proof of SoJ acting like fucking retards who only cared about Japan to the detriment of every other market and the company itself.
>But was declining.
Montana 94 sold MORE than Madden, despite your idiotic claim it was a "dead franchise." NFL 98, a Genesis game, which was a reskined version of the Montana games, sold more than any Saturn game ever released in America.
>It wasn't going to sell Saturns.
Highest selling Saturn game: Madden 97
>Keep regurgitating that. It won't change things.
Are you actually going to try to argue the Saturn was more successful than the Genesis? How delusion is your pocky addled brain?
>SoJ wouldn't let them make a football game?
Do you realize the Montana series was made in house, by Sega owned devs? Do you realize Sega wouldn't contract anyone to make a football game for them, after letting the previous devs go because Japan didn't give a shit about football and was too busy yelling at the American branch that it was their fault that Virtua Fighter wasn't selling a million copies a day?

[Anonymous No.7689325]

>>7689273
>tons of accounts from any higher up at SoA
The only one I know of is Tom Kalinske. Just about every other one I've read doesn't seem to align with his accounts. Sure they say they weren't thrilled with the Saturn's design but they also praise other parts of it's design like the Dual SH-2 set up. They also don't describe the hostile relationship between SoJ and SoA.
>Peter Moore
That wouldn't be for another 10 years or so.
>They stopped making them when they switched to 3D Models!
That switch came with Madden 99, which was after the Saturn was discontinued.
> Almost as if the Saturn couldn't run them
It seems to handle it just fine in high res mode at 60fps here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chiE9ZaL10g
>Muh $400!
The Saturn was Price matched with the PS1 by the time the PS1 launched. It also dropped to $199 before the PS1 did.
>The console couldn't run games. Quit deluding yourself.
Then why does it run things just fine in the hands of competent devs?
>The extra 11 days between the Saturn and PS1 version of Tomb Raider did jackshit
It was more like a month. And yes it did make a huge difference which we can see with just comparing the NTSC and PAL versions. The devs have even said that it impacted how much time they had to try and optimize the Saturn version.
>Daytona USA! It had downgrades!
It would have had downgrades on the PS1 as well. We're comaring a $20,000 arcade cabinet to a $400 console. The fixed version does run at 30fps with an acceptable draw distance though.
>BURNING RANGERS!
Again, it was rushed out incomplete as Sonic Team was transitioning to Sonic Adventure and the Dreamcast. It's also doing a ton of crazy shit behind the scenes. Don't you find it odd that we keep bringing up different games for examples of good running Saturn games yet you keep clinging to the same handful of bad looking games?

[Anonymous No.7689326]

is this thread really just two dudes arguing? Get a discord.

[Anonymous No.7689350]

>>7689273
>It only sold 300k more than the N64!!!
Again that's not accurate and doesn't add up with the numbers we have. Sega sold ~9.26 Million Saturns world side. Of that number about 2 million where Europe and US. That would leave about 7 million or so for Japan. N64 sold a bout 5 million in Japan. That's more than 300k. The 300k number is coming from mid generation data, not final data. Also Saturn's software attach rate was higher than N64s at 9:1.
>>7689301
>Japan was irrelevant!
Yet the Japanese Saturn market is what kept Sega from going into the red before the Dreamcast caused a hemorrhage.
>But Joe Montana sold more than Madden!!!
Then why didn't they make on eon the Saturn? And if you say Japan then why did Japan let them make it on the Genesis?
>Madden 97 was highest selling US game!
So Joe Montana wouldn't have sold as well then. Also clearly Madden 97 wasn't selling Saturn's either.
>Are you actually going to try to argue the Saturn was more successful than the Genesis?
No, I'm saying Genesis was in the decline at that point in time. It was the right time to launch a new console as the PS1 proves. Sega of America needed to support it though.
>It was Japans fault they couldn't make a football game!
Or it's that Sega's US devs weren't as good as you think. SonicXtreme shows this. Secondly if it's true they lost the devs for Joe Montana, then again why not reach out to EA to do deal with porting Madden to the Saturn for a launch title? They were clearly able to get them to do that with Fifa for the 32X. Why would Japan let them do that for the 32X but not the Saturn?

[Anonymous No.7689380]

Isn't it weird how the "incompetent" devs could make decent versions for PlayStation (a console with worse specs than Saturn)? Maybe the Saturn had a shitty architecture.

[Anonymous No.7689391]

>>7689380
You do realize that in many cases those Saturn versions were outsourced to other developers and weren't handled by the same team that made the PS1 version right?

[Anonymous No.7689395]

>>7689325
>The only one I know of is Tom Kalinske.
Well when you deliberately ignore anything that doesn't echo chamber "SoA bad" I assume its easy to be as stupid as you.
>Then why does it run things just fine in the hands of competent devs?
Which you can't name. Again the statement was full 3D games. Of which you've provided a single Soccer game and excuse upon excuse for anything else. You said Sega knew how to develop on it, and then claimed all their games were rushed or buggy when faced with the fact that even they ran like shit. Stop coping. Again, the Saturn could never even run a game like Dino Crisis, ever. You can't argue this.
>Sega sold ~9.26 Million Saturns world side
And the N64, its closet competition, sold more than double that worldwide. The Saturn was a failure, again stop coping.
>Yet the Japanese Saturn market is what kept Sega from going into the red
What crack are you on? The Saturn lost so much money just by being made they stopped producing them. Sega started losing millions in 98 when the Genesis market had finally dried up and their arcade profits couldn't cover the Saturn's failures. If the Saturn was keeping them alive they wouldn't have rushed out the Dreamcast.
>hen why didn't they make on eon the Saturn?
They did, its called NFL 97. They contracted a sub Z level dev for it and its one of the worst games ever made.
>And if you say Japan then why did Japan let them make it on the Genesis?
NFL 98 was literally a reskinned version of NFL 96 they didn't make anything.
> It was the right time to launch a new console... Sega of America needed to support it though.
You said yourself all the software was SoJ so that would be SoJ's job according to you. But then you turn around and say every launch game was rushed and buggy or that needed ones like Sonic couldn't be made. Almost as if it wasn't time to rush out a new console with poor specs, that no one wanted.

[Anonymous No.7689404]

>>7689391
At least for Tomb Raider, the programmers were exactly the same.
https://www.mobygames.com/game/playstation/tomb-raider/credits
https://www.mobygames.com/game/sega-saturn/tomb-raider/credits

[Anonymous No.7689405]

>>7689391
If the Saturn was so successful in Japan it was single handedly keeping Sega from bankruptcy before the Dreamcast replaced it and killed the company why was everyone outsourcing titles being made on it?

[Anonymous No.7689410]

>>7688347
>Genesis technically did live until 1997,

Majesco released the Sega Genesis model 3 in late 1998 for $50.00USD.

[Anonymous No.7689413]

damn that saturncuck is getting btfo nonstop in every single post

[Anonymous No.7689414]

>>7689395
>Which you can't name.
AM2
AM3
Sonic Team
Game Arts
Tecmo
Lobotomy Software
Travelers Tales
NexTech
Electronic Arts
Treasure
Technosoft
Capcom
Konami
Atlus

All of those devs seemed to get good results out of the hardware.
>Of which you've provided a single Soccer game and excuse upon excuse for anything else
Because you implied it couldn't handle the later Madden games with 3D player models, and that Soccer game does just that at 60fps.
>You said Sega knew how to develop on it, and then claimed all their games were rushed or buggy when faced with the fact that even they ran like shit.
No, I said the 2 examples you keep clinging to, a launch title and a late game that was released in an incomplete state, weren't as polished and optimized as they could be.
>Sega was losing money on Saturn! It's why they rushed out the Dreamcast!
They rushed out the Dreamcast because Bernie Stolar kept pushing for it. And if Saturn was the cause of the loss in money then how come when we look at earnings charts the point where the line plummets into the red is the year the Dreamcast releases?
>They made NFL 97 and it's bad!
Ok, what about in 95 for launch game? Didn't they still have some devs at STI then?
>NFL 98 was a reskinned NFL 96!
Ok, that still doesn't change the fact they could have put something out in 95 for launch or reached out to someone like EA to port Madden for launch.
>But it was SoJs job to support it!
And SoA could put some effort in too. If they truly had no devs then they needed to be working with contracting things out to other devs, getting the launch library ready and polished, working on bringing over more games, etc.

[Anonymous No.7689419]

>>7689395
>But then you turn around and say every launch game was rushed and buggy or that needed ones like Sonic couldn't be made.
I didn't say every launch title. I said Daytona USA which was rushed to meet the surprise US launch. Had they gone with the original planned launch they probably could have gotten it running at 30fps with a better draw distance, as we saw with Sega Rally which released in October of 95.

As for Sonic, I'm simply pointing out the reality that Sonic 3 and Knuckles literally just released less than a year prior. You can't just poof a Sonic game into existence that quickly.
>>7689404
And it was rushed out early due to a deal with Sega of Europe. The devs have stated that this impacted how optimized and polished the Saturn version could be.
>>7689405
Because PS1 was still selling better and was the lead platform? That doesn't change the fact that the Saturn was doing well enough in Japan. The point being made is that if it was handled better the Saturn could have at least performed similarly well in the US.

[Anonymous No.7689421]

>>7689410
I would be so passed if I spun up that kickass title and you have a derp ass sonic 3d model slapped on the front

[Anonymous No.7689454]

>>7689414
>AM2, AM3
30fps max games that drop below that, and look like pixelated shit
>Sonic Team
Burning rangers already covered. Their most impressive 3D feat was the Sonic Jam bonus stage.
>Tecmo
A soccer game.
>Lobotomy Software
The worst version of Quake to exist
>Travelers Tales
Environment mapping was achieved by writing what Burton described as a software version of the PlayStation's hardware rendering, as the Saturn's hardware was incapable of it.
>NexTech
Dogshit ports of Toshinden and RE worse than the PS1 version
>Konami
Worst version of a fucking 2D only game.
>A bunch of other companies that never even made a full 3D game on the Saturn
Give up.
>Ok, what about in 95 for launch game? Didn't they still have some devs at STI then?
No, they didn't actually and they wouldn't have released a football game in fucking May 4 months before the games even start anyway.
>And SoA could put some effort in too. If they truly had no devs then they needed to be working with contracting things out to other devs, getting the launch library ready and polished, working on bringing over more games, etc.
Yeah they kinda tried all that, and then SoJ said you need to release the console 5 months early, which pissed every retailer, and dev off and made anyone they contracted rush out their game to desperately fill the software library.

[Anonymous No.7689467]

Best thread I've read on /vr/ in a while

[Anonymous No.7689470]

Because they knew that SM64 was style over substance trash and it wasn't until idiots started thinking SM64 and other games were good and bad gaming became the new normal that Sega decided to go full bullshit with Sonic Adventure.
Love how dumbshit modern "gaming" kids abandoned Sega when their beloved Sony and Nintendo went full failure on garbage pseudo-games in the mid-90s and the only attention Sega got was the terrible Sonic games they made for the Dreamcast afterwards.
Gaming died in the late 90s. Thanks a lot, dumb "gamers".

[Anonymous No.7689878]

>>7689414
>Bernie forced SoJ to kill their supposedly successful Saturn to make way for the based Dreamcast

Damn, what a chad.

[Anonymous No.7689920]

>>7689454
LOL, most console 3D games back then had 30fps with drops you dumb posing zoomer. What the fuck are you even posting? What the fuck is even this shit?

[Anonymous No.7689924]

>>7689878
Yeah, that does not make any sense. When SoJ told him to drop the NiGHTS engine for Sonic X-treme, Stolar had no option but obey.
And now we're supposed to believe that Bernie somehow had enough power to force SoJ to kill a successful console? Yeah, that's bullshit.

[Anonymous No.7690106]

>>7689920
And most Saturn games weren't 3D and still were 30fps with drops, and the true 3D ones were lucky to hit that.

[Anonymous No.7690113]

>>7687637
pixel vomit

[Anonymous No.7690184]

>>7689414
>They rushed out the Dreamcast because Bernie Stolar kept pushing for it.
So Bernie Stolar forced Sega to drop their (according to you) successful and profitable Saturn, and rush out the Dreamcast to serve the American market, but then release it only in Japan for an entire year.
You are on OD levels of copium right now.

[Anonymous No.7690207]

>>7689350
>Yet the Japanese Saturn market is what kept Sega from going into the red before the Dreamcast caused a hemorrhage
Completely and factually untrue, as you can see in pic related. Sega suffered their first losses in the consumer home console market in 95, the first year the Saturn was released worldwide. A small loss because the Genesis was still being heavily supported. 96 sees a massive drop as the Genesis was abandoned in every region, followed by a very slight upturn in 97, the year SoA more or less ended Saturn support and returned to the Genesis. 98 sees the biggest dip as the Saturn and Genesis have no real market in America, and Sega relies only on Japanese Saturn revenue until the November launch of the Dreamcast. The DC American launch year spikes them higher than they had been since 95, and then Sony destroys them in 2000 before they go third party.
So factually the worst years for Sega before the PS2 were when the Saturn was being featured as the mainline console. Only when they had support for the Genesis or Dreamcast in America did their fortune not continuously decline, and in 96 and 98 when the Saturn alone in Japan carried them they posted their biggest losses pre PS2.
So the notion that the Saturn was doing anything to benefit Sega in any region is simply false. If anything what kept them from going even further into the red in the home console division was SoA returning to the Genesis, and having an extremely successful launch of the Dreamcast.

[Anonymous No.7690286]

>>7686821
I actually liked how X-Treme looked, moreso than Mario, which was really clunky and blocky looking even at the time. Always pisses me off that they never released it.

[Anonymous No.7692062]

fisheye

[Anonymous No.7693901]

>>7686821
Should have had multiple teams working on sonic games

[Anonymous No.7694173]

>>7686821
>So why did the development continue to the point that it almost killed a man if it was literally pointless?
Sega made a game that literally killed a man during the development of it.

[Anonymous No.7694190]

>>7689116
>They could have talked Sega of Japan out of the 32X, cancelled it, and prepped the Saturn for a better launch instead of acting like whiny children
If SoJ is already not listening to them by that point, how could they talk them out of anything?

[Anonymous No.7694539]

>>7687821
>They were really working on Saturn from the start. Just because it wasn't on a game you like doesn't change the fact they were working on it.
I phrased that wrong, meant "by the time Sanic Team really got working on [a] Saturn [3D Sonic game]"

[Anonymous No.7694559]

>>7688871
>>When the only game still selling is a sports title, it's time to move on.
>Funny you mention that, considering Madden 97 is also the highest selling Saturn game outside Japan. Glad you agree with SoA it was time to move on from the Saturn.
kekked

[Anonymous No.7694562]

>>7694173
That's the difference, PDS turned out to be an incredible game, a timeless one. Sonic Xtreme almost killed a man and its still one of the least appealing things on the system.

>>7694190
The 32X was literally SoJ listening to SoA being afraid to leave the genesis behind.

[Anonymous No.7694636]

>>7694562
>The 32X was literally SoJ listening to SoA being afraid to leave the genesis behind.
Wrong. Kalinske wanted to keep making Genesis hardware + games for a few more years but the retard Nakayama told him to kill it off to focus on the Shiturn, which ultimately killed Sega.

[Anonymous No.7694669]

>>7694636
False.

[Anonymous No.7694679]

Let's face it, Sega lucked out with the Genesis. Everything else they did was complete dogshit. I said what I said.

[Anonymous No.7694736]

>>7694669
That was because SoJ forced the 32X on them as a 'transitional' platform to make western devs more accustomed to programming on the twin SH2 arch, but if it were up to Kalinske, he would've stuck with the Genesis because it was still had a pretty huge market share in the west.

[Anonymous No.7694740]

>>7694736
>That was because SoJ forced the 32X on them
False. SoA was refusing to sell the Saturn at all, wanting to stick with the Genesis. SoJ pitched them the 32X and they agreed. Kalinske needed to stop being a bitch and realize there's no fucking way the Genesis could compete with the playstation especially when by 1993 it was already in decline.

[Anonymous No.7694769]

>>7686821
>I just wonder why Sega fucked up in the mid to late 90s

[Anonymous No.7694851]

>>7694740
>SoA was refusing to sell the Saturn at all, wanting to stick with the Genesis.
They had the right idea. Genesis may not have been able to stay on top against the Playstation, but they would've been in a better position than releasing a system that was trash at doing 3D and needed an extremely high attach rate to cover the costs of its complicated hardware. Genesis after 1995 could've held its own niche like the NES in the '90s, but since SoJ wanted to rush out a new console, that wasn't possible.

>SoJ pitched them the 32X and they agreed.
It was either the 32X or a stand-alone Mars console, that was the negotiation. SoA couldn't just tell SoJ to scrap the Mars idea entirely, SoJ demanded it was to be made as a lower cost alternative to the more luxurious Saturn and to have something to counter the Jaguar because the Saturn wasn't ready yet at the time, along with prepping devs for coding on the SH2.

>especially when by 1993 it was already in decline.
Lolwut? 91-94 was the Genesis' best years. It wasn't until Sega pissed all over the success of the Genesis by shifting focus onto the Saturn in 1995 that it began to decline in market shares. If Sega had just kept developing more games that used embedded video chips like the SVP instead of fucking up with the 32X/Saturn, then released the Dreamcast later on (a system that could actually do 3D well, unlike the Saturn), they would've never crashed and burned.

[Anonymous No.7694972]

>>7694851
>Lolwut? 91-94 was the Genesis' best years
correct this fundamental misunderstanding and down goes your entire argument. Never post about it again, understand?

[Anonymous No.7694987]

>>7694972
>got cucked hard by the 1993 holiday season
Why though

[Anonymous No.7695034]

>>7687301
I mean if it were released alongside Bug!, I'm sure people could've excused it just for being an early tech demo or something.

[Anonymous No.7695064]

>>7694851
I think they kinda fucked themselves over with their earlier aggressive ad campaigns boasting technology superiority and leading the way of the future. It was right for them to can the genesis, because with the n64 and Playstation coming while maintaining support for the genesis for another 3 years they would have had to eat their own words while their competitors advanced ahead of the new industry leaders.

[Anonymous No.7695119]

>>7694987
So, I was working on the states during the 93 holiday season (college and all that, I had a shitty retail job). Genesis bundles were 99 USD, and SNES bundles were 129 USD. We sold approximately ten Genesis for every SNES, which to this day seems crazy.

Any way, the point being that sales were supply-constrained. We were turning people away because we couldn't keep the Genesis in stock. We would sell through 100% of our shipments each week in the first few days. That happened in 93 and 94 Xmas seasons.

[Anonymous No.7695174]

>>7686821
It's simple, just cancel Sonic 3 entirely and get the X-treme guys to make that instead for you, then get cracking on a hot Sonic game in time for the launch of the Saturn in Japan to help those sales. Maybe it's a few months late, whatever, point is that Sonic's here, and probably clunky as fuck if it's in 3D. Maybe even miss the Japanese launch window entirely, but definitely be there for the US launch, early or otherwise. Sonic Team is now ready to move on to NiGHTS as scheduled in the current timeline, with Adventure coming along to be Sonic's big leap into narrative/cutscenes/multiple characters/next gen etc.
Would this have saved Sega?

[Anonymous No.7695179]

>>7695119
damn of all the things sega is retarded for i never knew they were retarded for understocking when they actually had a product that sold

[Anonymous No.7695197]

>>7695179
Well, there was no explanation as to why we couldn't get stock. So Sega could have been supply-constrained on the production side, or diverted too much stock to where it wasn't needed, etc.

Given the success of the 93 season, I don't see why there was a repeat in 94, even with the Saturn coming up. But we're talking about Sega, so maybe "Pants on Head Retarded" was just part of their core competency?

Good times, tho. I loved being able to walk into Babbages/Egghead and get a near-endless supply of awesome PC games.

[Anonymous No.7695281]

>>7686821
Because SM64's quality in direction wasn't immediately apparent. It's easy to look at things in retrospect and say "oh yeah, that was obviously better" but this is the same era where Steven Spielberg called fucking Bug the the thing that would make the Saturn relevant. No one knew what was truly good or bad. Everyone was mesmerized by 3D as a concept

[Anonymous No.7695321]

>>7688295
>This. Should've let the Genesis live until 1997,
Which they had an opportunity to do with the 32X.
>released the Dreamcast (with 3dfx instead of PowerVR GPU) instead of the Shiturn, and Sega would have never gone under.
That would have been rad. They'd have had a full 3 years to themselves on the next generation market, and an additional 4 year of competitiveness against the PS2 (The PS2's first year of videogames looked like ass, everyone forgets that their "Emotion Engine" parallel processor was as notoriously difficult to develop for as the Saturn).
Essentially the Dreamcast would have been equivalent to the Panasonic's never realeased M2 console which people were very hyped for. I wonder if rumors of that console's release are why Sega held off until 98' to release the Dreamcast.

[Anonymous No.7695332]

>>7695321
The 32x never stood a chance of lengthening the Genesis's life. It was the wrong design at the wrong time.

[Anonymous No.7695456]

>>7688653
>The correct thing SoA should have done is assure SoJ that the Jaguar was a joke and not a serious threat, and to instead focus on the Saturn, Genesis, and Sega CD.
Hindsight is 20/20, the Jaguar had similar specs to the PS1 and was being released by a still major player (Atari), they weren't the merchandising licensing shell they are now. In fact I've read many developers and engineers that the Jaguar could have produced PS1 level graphics if it had been for cost cutting in a few critical areas. I believe the achiles heel is it's memory and bus speed.

[Anonymous No.7695472]

>>7695456
>the Jaguar had similar specs to the PS1
really?

[Anonymous No.7695496]

>>7686821
i like how the border is clearly visible here just like it was in the real e3 1996 trailer for the game
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdBKq7o6RTE
by the way this trailer makes this game look unbelievably shitty. it literally looks like they had spent three days working on the game by that point and slapped together the video in an hour for a quick presentation to the higher ups. the fact that this was shown to the public totally baffles me

[Anonymous No.7695735]

>>7694972
>posts a chart that proves him right

[Anonymous No.7695751]

>>7694972
>that '96 spike
SoJ were retarded to give up on the Genesis so fast.

[Anonymous No.7695854]

>>7694679
I kind of share this opinion. I don't think everything besides Genesis was dogshit, but below their competition, save for somes games here and there. Maybe the Dreamcast could do better, but Sega was in dire conditions at that point; also, its awful controller design and weak storage media didn't help either.

[Anonymous No.7696046]

>>7695472
If there's anything this gen should have taught consumers is ignore specs, only focus on what's actually in your hands. Nintendo swore up and down it was selling you a super computer yet it was falling behind the Playstation in terms of performance. That never should have happened with the raw numbers but there was plain as day something else at play here holding the system back.

[Anonymous No.7696061]

>>7689181
Mario 64 is barely even a Mario game, that style of gameplay won't work with Sonic

[Anonymous No.7696287]

>>7695472
Yes, you can see how competitive the Jaguar is with the original Playstation in games like "Aliens vs Predator" which is some respects exceeds what a Playstation could do graphically.
"Rayman" was originally developed for the Atari Jaguar and when it was ported to the Playstation the animation had to be cut down a bit.

[Anonymous No.7696635]

>>7686821
Didn't you know that Sonic Xtreme had a lengthy development cycle OP?
Originally it was meant to be a genesis title before the hardware was shifted towards 32X and then Saturn.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdFhXyRFJAM

It's obvious that either SOJ didn't want to spent alot of resources on American divisions so they just let the Technical Institute team to salvage the remaining work before it was canned.

[Anonymous No.7696719]

>>7686821
There's something really charming about playing as 3d rendered sonic, the OST that was planned for X-treme has some pretty amazing tunes that I wish could make a comeback somehow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmaDfHU303E&ab_channel=DarXide

[Anonymous No.7696751]

>>7696635
What sort of tech wizardry did they pull off to make the 32x run those prototypes?

[Anonymous No.7696805]

>>7696719
>that I wish could make a comeback somehow.
?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhqMGLBhmc8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpHN9K7NW3I

[Anonymous No.7696819]

>>7687469
The lead dev had to sleep in the Sega offices due to deadlines and got stress related pneumonia

[Anonymous No.7696974]

>>7696751
Sonic Mars never ran on a 32x. It was a prototype demonstration which was meant to give an approximation of what they they thought they'd be able to achieve if given the green light.

[Anonymous No.7697108]

From what I gathered, the best thing Sega could have done was have the Saturn be a Japanese only console with limited release, and let the Americans and Britbongs have their genesis.

[Anonymous No.7697252]

>>7686821
>I just wonder why Sega didn't immediately tell the dev team on X-treme to completely start over
They literally did. The fisheye lens gameplay was scrapped because Point of View fucked up their meeting with SoJ. If Xtreme had come out it would’ve been more like pic related (google project condor)

[Anonymous No.7699228]

>>7686821
>I just wonder why Sega didn't immediately tell the dev team on X-treme to completely start over with a good concept this time after the first footage of Super Mario 64 got out there
Because they hated Gaijins so bad they just wanted them to rot as glorious Nippon make Sonniku look superior by them.

20 years later, they are fucking BTFO'd by all Americans doing Sonic better than them. Feels good. Fuck SEGA.

[Anonymous No.7699415]

>>7687269
Kill yourself Clownaka. Glad your time is up.

[Anonymous No.7699691]

>>7687821
>Sonic 3D Blasts special stages, Sonic R, and Sonic Jam are all proof that it could work in the hands of competent developers.
Which all was made by Traveler's Tales, yes?

[Anonymous No.7699729]

>>7687269
Fess up to your asinine egotistical pretentiousness, Dear Naka-san, and make NiGHTS 3, or at least apologize for the crushing failure you did with Balan, unlike post-2006 Inafune with Comcept.

[Anonymous No.7699774]

>>7699691
>Which all was made by Traveler's Tales, yes?
Sonic Jam and the 3D Blast Saturn special stages were both done in-house by Sonic Team

[Anonymous No.7699775]

>>7699691
Incorrect for two of the three, but they were still very good developers, technically speaking.

[Anonymous No.7701612]

>>7699228
>SoJ hated the gaijins and deliberately tanked their own company in revenge!
Why does everyone say this

[Anonymous No.7702237]

>>7686981
>>7686907

[Anonymous No.7702259]

>>7702237
"I bought your wife"
"Take her... fucker"

[Anonymous No.7702562]

>>7688313
>California

That's the problem.
That place is the graveyard of hope.

[Anonymous No.7702571]

>>7696061
>that style of gameplay won't work with Sonic

lol, what?? they tried it, some years later, multiple times, and despite it failing, over and over, they kept doing it.

So, your post is as much fail as Sega.

[Anonymous No.7704681]

>>7702571
>they tried it, some years later, multiple times, and despite it failing, over and over
Oh boy another Nintendofag pretending Adventure wasn't an objectively great game. Come on dude, you won. Sega dropped out of the console game. Can you drop the pointless grudge already?

[Anonymous No.7704693]

>>7702571
>>7704681
The original formula of Adventure had a lot of potential, but it was severely lacking in polish and full of unfun bloat.
Sega made a few additional attempts at the same idea, but only managed to fuck it up harder. Then they gave up even trying.

[Anonymous No.7704941]

>>7696635
>knuckles has the runs!