/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.7322468]

Was it really "too big"?

[Anonymous No.7322481]

yes and yooka laylee repeated the mistake

the smaller, more concentrated and detail-rich levels of kazooie were by far superior

[Anonymous No.7322483]

>>7322468
Personally I don't think the issue was that it was 'too large' so much as they wanted to make it so you didn't just 100% complete everything in one go. They did this by including jiggies that you could only get with moves from later levels and using shortcuts and stuff that you unlocked in other worlds. In that sense they tried to make it a bit like a Metroidvania and I actually think it worked out rather well.
So yeah, I see why people prefer the separate stand alone worlds of Kazooie (it probably aged a bit better because of that as well) but I like and appreciated the attempts to make a more interconnected world with Tooie and it always felt amazing to get a new ability that let you go or do something you couldn't before

[Anonymous No.7322487]

If it can fit on a cart, it's not big.

[Anonymous No.7322520]

>>7322481
The age old philosophy, limitation breeds creativity.
It's kind of like a small intimate birthday party vs a wild and crazy party with 100 people.

[Anonymous No.7322548]

>>7322483
I think the big problem is the uncertainty Banjo-Tooie's stupid systems caused. When a level says you need 3 more jiggies, you never know for sure if you're actually able to collect those three jiggies yet or if they require a skill from later in the game to get. By the same merit, if a level says you've collected everything, there's still the possibility you missed a door that leads to a tiny room in another level with a few collectables, but they don't show up in that current level's total.

If you're going to make a game where the entire purpose is to walk around collecting things, the player not being sure if there's anything to collect is one of the worst things you can do.

[Anonymous No.7322571]

>>7322483
>>7322548
I just hated not being able to get a jiggy or page or complete a section when I see it. I'd comb levels in the first game and hated leaving things undone, but there's only, what one instance of that between Freezeezy Peak and Gobi's Valley. I think the first three levels of Tooie had stuff you couldn't deal with until Terrydactyland, the fifth freaking level of the game. I appreciate it more now, but as a kid and even still today, I chagrined at that.

[Anonymous No.7322628]

>>7322548
>there's still the possibility you missed a door that leads to a tiny room in another level with a few collectables, but they don't show up in that current level's total.
I'd probably say that's the only thing that was semi-annoying about it, yeah.
>>7322571
Yeah, like I said I totally get why people prefer Kazooie's approaches to level but I guess they didn't want to just copy the same thing? And makes sense that they wanted everything to be BIGGER and BETTER and what not. DK64 had similar game design issues imo where they made the mistake of more = better.

[Anonymous No.7322763]

>>7322468
To quote a certain e celeb, shrinking down the levels won't stop the excruciating task of going Wumba's, doing something, going back to Wumbas, go to Mumbo's, go to Wumba's again, doing something else, then going back to Mumbo's.

[Anonymous No.7322791]

>>7322468
Maybe, but I think its deeper problem is that being "big" was its only guiding principle. The game has a lot of charm and effort that went into that charm, but most of the new moves are redundant and just clutter up the game, there's a monotonous reliance on minigames, and these things combine to make the game feel bloated and dull. People pick on the Mumbo stuff, but I think Mumbo perfectly embodies how fucked Tooie's mission statement was.

[Anonymous No.7322807]

>>7322487
what if it takes 100ms to load each frame?
game's unplayable from the start

[Anonymous No.7322808]

>>7322468
it wasn't big enough

[Anonymous No.7322819]

>>7322807
>game's unplayable from the start
Don't be a baby. Yes it had some performance issues but unplayable? You sound like a stupid woman

[Anonymous No.7324363]

>>7322468
The reason fags like you hate on Tooie is because you don't realize that it's actually a Metroidvania action adventure where platforming is just a minor mode of transportation. You all approach it from the angle of it being a failed 3D platformer collectathon when in reality it was the first game to abandon it way before Nuts & Bolts ever did. You can walk around and jump in Nuts & Bolts but you don't see people calling it a 3D platformer in the same vein as Kazooie now do you?

[Anonymous No.7324368]

yes, so were a good chunk of the levels in the first game. Banjo was never good.

[Anonymous No.7324386]

>>7324368
Bad take.
>>7324363
This. It's a great game but people just didn't appreciate it's strengths

[Anonymous No.7324496]

It's shovelware. 3D platforming mascot craze spawned a lot of it, I'm not sure why this one is the one clone stamp game that people draw the line at.

[Anonymous No.7324526]

>>7322468
Why were n64 games giant ? It doesnt make sense. The devs thought new 3d=for grants and long levels.

[Anonymous No.7324531]

>>7324526
For giants*

[Anonymous No.7324645]

>>7324526
See I can tell from this post that you're a zoomer who doesn't understand where the state of the industry was or the tec levels at the time. Before the N64 console games couldn't portray depth or verticality very well. Sure you could fall down a bunch of samey looking screens in a 2D game but you couldn't like look down a cliff and see somewhere that you could then move down into without a loading screen or something along those lines. 3D games allowed you to create giant physical spaces and devs enjoyed stretching that and playing with it even if they were still limited for the time.

[Anonymous No.7324710]

Just replayed this recently, once you enter Terrydactyl Land the game became unenjoyable. You really start to notice the wide open empty areas. The numerous transformations / majority of abilities / mumbo are only used in a few specific spots. So you end up with empty worlds that required you to go from A to B to get your Jiggies.

[Anonymous No.7324765]

>>7322628
>DK64 had similar game design issues imo where they made the mistake of more = better.
Honestly though DK64 would've been a lot better if they had just had Donkey, Diddy, and Dixie instead of 5 playable characters all with their own collectables

[Anonymous No.7324946]

>>7324496
>I'm not sure why this one is the one clone stamp game that people draw the line at.
It's on the N64 so it attracts the hardcore autistis.

[Anonymous No.7325679]

>>7324363
But it's not. 75-80% of any given level can be completed your first time through it, and the levels are only interconnected at discrete points that are mostly an excuse for fun juxtapositions that hand out a single Jiggy or so each. The interconnections are overstated.

But the real problem with the game is that accomplishing anything is rarely satisfying. In Metroid it's fun to go back to areas because exploring itself is nuanced and also because applying new abilities is fun in its own right: needing to time your ice beam to make platforms out of enemies, for example, or building up speed in time to blast throw a wall or a ceiling. There's nothing compelling about going to Mumbo's house, getting Mumbo, going to a Mumbo pad and hitting a button, and then going back to Mumbo's house. There's nothing interesting about using split pads to open a door, needing to go back to Wumba to transform into the money truck to open another door, and then going back to Wumba to transform back in order to play a mini game behind the door you just opened. Tooie's moves are just basic keys, and many of these don't even lead to Jiggies but rather minigames completely divorced from the rest of the game. Tooie is a tedious slog even on its own merits.

[Anonymous No.7327471]

>>7322468
nah

[Anonymous No.7327506]

>>7322468
>Was it really "too big"?
for you

[Anonymous No.7327678]

>>7324363
No the problem is still that it's too big

[Anonymous No.7327787]

>>7322468
I remember being bloated with weird crap and having much more fun with the first one. Almost every boss has to be defeated in FPS mode, in a fucking platformer.

[Anonymous No.7329103]

>>7322468

desu when playing it for the first time i liked it better due to the interconnectivity and pay-off you get later in the game. In replaying it recently I can see the "too big" elements but I think it just spoke to the efficiency and consistency that BK had.

I think it stands along against competitors very well, but will always be contrasted wiht the first one so that largeness and lack of focus becomes more obvious.

[Anonymous No.7329292]

>Was it really "too big"?

Well son, that's what yer mum said

[Anonymous No.7329313]

>>7322468
how can it be too big? its on a bloody cartridge

[Anonymous No.7329320]

The problem is my favorite e-celebs said it’s bad

[Anonymous No.7329472]

>>7329103
This, but along with what >>7325679 said, since yeah, it can get tedious going back and forth between specific places since, outside of those conveniently placed sparkling cloud spots, you couldn't switch between characters outside of rather specific areas. Granted, maybe that gives some direction, but thinking on it now, that's probably why kid me preferred DK64 over Tooie; tag barrels were damn near everywhere.

Still though, discovering how different worlds were connected and grabbing everything you couldn't before was fun, and said worlds also felt more organic than "here's a fucking pineapple-activated gate because of course". It's just too bad it had Banjo-Kazooie of all things as its predecessor.

[Anonymous No.7329518]

Tooie and DK64 ain’t think we’re designed with the idea that the vast majority of players weren’t going to collect little thing the game has to offer and expect you do the things you can figure out and then move on when you feel like you’re ready and we’re pretty lenient in that regard, I think you only need to be at around 70% or so to beat those games. The completionist cheevo hunting mindset is much more common today which I think is a big reason why those games were acclaimed back in their day and more criticized now.

Of course in BK just to beat the game I think you need to get pretty close to 100%, like I think the minimum is 92/100 jiggies and 810/900 notes so I can see how playing that game first would get people into that mindset.

[Anonymous No.7329556]

>>7322468
it was better than the original imo

[Anonymous No.7329560]

>>7324363
If they wanted to make a metroidvania action adventure game, then they made a really bad one.
Bosses are boring, the minigames are boring, the levels, despite being bigger than Kazooies, are much less interesting to explore. They tried to give it a DK64 feel, but its worse in every aspect, even if the former was a bigger collectathon.
They had a few good ideas with Tooie, like splitting Banjo and Kazooie and the separate move set for each of them, but the overall setting really brings the experience down.

[Anonymous No.7331487]

Have you seen them? Yes, yes they were.

[Anonymous No.7331497]

>>7322481
True with Yooka-Laylee 1. It was still a fun game. Impossible Lair was great though.

[Anonymous No.7331525]

>>7329320
No, anon. You can't blame e-celebs every time someone calls you out on your shit taste.

[Anonymous No.7331798]

>>7322481
>the smaller, more concentrated and detail-rich levels of kazooie were by far superior
Oh yes, 3 jiggies in one area was always a better design.

[Anonymous No.7331847]

>>7322468
I didn't think so. DK64 was too big. Yooka Laylee was too big. This one was just right. If anything the first was too small. I think it's the right size to go for.

[Anonymous No.7331865]

>>7322468
Ah, just too much backtracking. The magic train between the mines and witchy world Dinoland. Totally unnecessary

[Anonymous No.7331929]

>>7322468
It really was. Just ask your mom.

[Anonymous No.7331952]

>>7322468
The only problem with Banjo Tooie was this mistake.

[Anonymous No.7332069]

>>7331952
Still the best siivagunner
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYtN8XGuYM8

[Anonymous No.7332074]

>>7332069
>victory fanfare instead of the fail fanfare at the end

inaccurate

[Anonymous No.7332298]

>>7331525
This, my favorite youtube personality told me to watch out for people who say getting my opinions from youtube personalities is a bad thing.

[Anonymous No.7333515]

>>7332069
Still the only jiggy I never got.

[Anonymous No.7334053]

>>7332069
>siivagunner

[Anonymous No.7335553]

>>7322468
What was the biggest N64 game in terms of land size, empty or not? Like Quest 64 or some shit?

[Anonymous No.7337098]

>>7335553
Whatever the other RPG was called

[Anonymous No.7337582]

>>7322481
>yes and yooka laylee repeated the mistake
Tooie's world sizes weren't Yooka Laylee levels of big. Especially not when Yooka Laylee had that world expansion mechanic, which was very poorly handled.

[Anonymous No.7337667]

>>7324710
Terrydactal land is definitely the low mid point in the game, but Grunty Industries which follows it I've always thought was brilliant. People dislike it, but I've always seen it as each floor is like a mini contained level in its own right.

Cloud Cuckoo land is a bit of a mess too, but luckily its almost all sky which makes the size of it bearable. The levels theme doesn't hold up though

[Anonymous No.7338020]

>>7337667
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1MyVy61-48
Grunty Industries is incredible. My favorite Banjo level. Peak interconnected exploration, borderline Metroid level

[Anonymous No.7338045]

>>7337667
I share this feeling of disappointment about Terrydactyland, especially because I remember it was the level I was most excited about from the pictures I saw in the magazines at the time. The T-Rex transformation is so fucking underwhelming.
>>7325679
Described perfectly what it feels like playing BT levels.

[Anonymous No.7338062]

>>7322481
Banjo Tooie's worlds are unnecessarily large, but not too big. Yooka-Laylee and to an extent Dk64 are too big.

Tooie's problems stem from what other people have said in this thread. It's not a bad game, just flawed, when Banjo Kazooie got everything spot on

[Anonymous No.7339390]

Bout the same

[Anonymous No.7339406]

>>7325679
This anon hit the nail on the head. BT isnt too big, it’s too tedious.

[Anonymous No.7339429]

nope, second best collecathon ever made behind sm64

[Anonymous No.7339557]

Which character did you want to fuck?

[Anonymous No.7340336]

>>7339557
Humba Wumba, Honey B

[Anonymous No.7340521]

>>7322468
Tooie's problem wasnt that it was too big. Yes the worlds were bigger, but it really wasnt bad most of the time. It's problem was mainly having jiggies that required moves from later worlds, or pathways from different worlds in order to obtain, resulting in a bit of backtracking here and there.
Another problem is that they clearly ran out of steam when it came to new moves by World 3, and started shoehorning in lots of highly situational moves that require the split up pads, which made certain jiggies even more annoying.
Kazooie did have one jiggie that required a move from a later world (Boggie's second race in Freezeezy Peak needs the turbo trainers from Gobi's Valley. Mr Vile in Bubblegloop swamp does have the option for turbo trainers, but they're not required), but both relevant worlds are available around the same time anyhow.