/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.7249576]

I thought the Saturn couldn't do transparencies

[Anonymous No.7249582]

>>7249576
It cannot (Save for Sonic R which made the illusion of true transparency), it is most likely a dithering pattern that something like RCA Composite (The Yellow cable) would blend together to achieve that effect. Consoles like the Genesis and others used this trick for years.

[Anonymous No.7249583]

>>7249576
It can, just not very well, hence why dithering was used instead most of the time.

[Anonymous No.7249585]

>>7249576
It’s just a trick, not “real” transparency, but like the snes, just a trick.

[Anonymous No.7249591]

>>7249576
>saturn can't do transparency

ooo am I glad I chose PSX over saturn for my birthday.

[Anonymous No.7249598]

>>7249585
>SNES & PS1 can do actual real transparency
See engineering.

[Anonymous No.7249630]

>>7249576
It can, but only effectively in certain circumstances. Actually, the Saturn hardware had numerous different issues which caused problems with transparencies, but over the years developers were able to work around some of them.

[Anonymous No.7249726]

>>7249576
No one said it couldn't. It was just limited to big, clunky layers like pic related. Good luck adding alpha compositing to anything on screen at will.

[Anonymous No.7249738]

I'M DITHER RIIIIIIIIICK

[Anonymous No.7249749]

>>7249576
Wrong.
https://segaretro.org/File:Sega_Saturn_HST-0020.jpg

[Anonymous No.7249750]

>>7249598
Like the Saturn, the SNES can't do transparencies on top of transparencies. SNES's transparencies are simulated via color addition, subtraction, or averaging.

[Anonymous No.7249875]

I think only VPD2 can draw transparencies in the Saturn's hardware, while VPD1 cannot, and when layers from VPD1 and VPD2 overlap each other it can cause issues as well.

[Anonymous No.7249938]

>>7249576
It can, but it's mainly on VDP2 and on VDP1 it's a pain to get working right.
>>7249582
>>7249585
t. Retards

[Anonymous No.7251905]

>>7249749
kek

[Anonymous No.7251923]

>Saturn can't do transparencies
DEBOONKED, watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_OchOV_WDg

[Anonymous No.7252060]

>>7249750
>SNES's transparencies are simulated via color addition, subtraction, or averaging
so uh that's what transparency is.

[Anonymous No.7252101]

IIRC the fires in Burning Rangers are all transparent

[Anonymous No.7252320]

>>7249576
The Saturn can't do anything

[Anonymous No.7252326]

>>7252320
Fuck off autist.

[Anonymous No.7252363]

>>7252320
Based and Notourfuturepilled.

[Anonymous No.7252371]

>>7249576
Transparencies work fine for backgrounds created in VDP2, but sprites/polygons created in VDP1 are effectively smashed together into one layer and can't support overlapping transparencies without pixel data getting overwritten (that's why Saturn games typically used mesh transparencies as a work-around). Full details on this can be found in this great article: https://www.mattgreer.org/articles/sega-saturn-and-transparency/

[Anonymous No.7252609]

>>7249591
Hey me too! .... in 1996.

[Anonymous No.7252745]

>>7252371
>Transparencies work fine for backgrounds created in VDP2, but sprites/polygons created in VDP1 are effectively smashed together into one layer and can't support overlapping transparencies without pixel data getting overwritten (that's why Saturn games typically used mesh transparencies as a work-around). Full details on this can be found in this great article: https://www.mattgreer.org/articles/sega-saturn-and-transparency/

> Sega/Hitachi VDP1 @ 28.63636 MHz: Handles sprite/texture and polygon drawing
> Sega/Yamaha VDP2 @ 28.63636 MHz: Backgrounds, scrolling, handles background, scroll and 3D rotation planes
https://treasure.fandom.com/wiki/Sega_Saturn/Technical_Specifications

The Saturn treats sprites and textures as the same thing. VPD2 handles background layers as well as "mode 7" like flat playing fields that end up in a lot of 3D Saturn games. Apparently VPD2 can only do transparencies. It's less likely to see transparencies in 3D Saturn games than it is in 2D games.

I was always disappointing that 2D platformers had to die in the 32bit generation.The hardware could do some great things with scaling/ rotation:

https://youtu.be/qHHfdeFZRoU?t=1168

Even the Playstation has 2D capabilities. But they are a bit more limited than the Saturn's , but can be expanded upon using the polygon capabilities.

[Anonymous No.7252954]

>>7249576
?
it can, but there are issues when graphics generated by the VDP1 and VDP2 overlap or something like that

[Anonymous No.7252972]

>>7252320
The day Stolar dies I am going to pop the finest bottle of bubbly.

t. seething 90's Sega fanboy

[Anonymous No.7253020]

>>7252745
>Even the Playstation has 2D capabilities. But they are a bit more limited than the Saturn's , but can be expanded upon using the polygon capabilities.
Honestly, the PSX had such a fillrate advantage over the VDP1 that just the inclusion of an extra .5 meg of video RAM to match (actually exceed, in a sense, as some RAM is wasted in the Saturn's separate framebuffers) the Saturn's probably could have done anything it did even with VDP2.

[Anonymous No.7253021]

So basically, if Saturn had just used one good video chip instead of 2 crappy ones, it would've been able to do transparencies just fine?

[Anonymous No.7253030]

>>7249582
Don't know why anyone would get mad at this comment. It's super cool to hear about how games got around limitations

[Anonymous No.7253063]

>>7249576
It is one of my favorite games for one of my favorite consoles. It does demonstrate transparencies well but there are many other games on the system that does it as well.

>>7251923
This is pretty cool. A bit technical, but nice seeing the tricks artists/programmers used with the hardware.

[Anonymous No.7253074]

>>7253021
Not quite, but easier. Quad rasterizers still have issues with overdraw if implemented in hardware incorrectly. But yeah, one VDP implemented at 32-bits wide with decent caching and buffering would have been both cheaper for Sega and easier for programmers.

[Anonymous No.7253080]

>>7249582
Get your eyes checked, that screenshot is not even doing a composite shader or any kind of blurring and its clearly working

[Anonymous No.7253086]

>>7249750
>can’t do
False statement.

[Anonymous No.7253092]

>>7251923
>proven nothing
You in denial.

[Anonymous No.7253093]

>>7253063

Scan some of your books you useless dweeb instead of showing off. If you crop them right scans without debinding can be pretty good.

[Anonymous No.7253203]

>>7249576
The Saturn can do transparencies, they're just difficult to implement and require utilizing the console's hardware to draw the scene a specific way. Sometimes games will use true transparencies as well as dithering in the same scene, or they might skip it and use dithering exclusively and rely on blur from your TV to blend them.

This is why the only games that utilize transparencies tend to be exclusives, while multiplats that did not have the Saturn as the lead platform tended to use solely dithering instead.

"The Saturn can't do transparencies" is just a myth perpetuated by zoomers, see also "The Saturn focused on 2D and only had 3D support added because of the Playstation" or "Sony said the PS2 would do Toy Story graphics".

[Anonymous No.7253215]

>>7253203
No they can’t. Stop pull out your butt.

[Anonymous No.7253216]

The Saturn not being able to do transparencies was always a falsehood. The truth of the matter is that it can do transparencies, but it requires both of the Saturn's processors to work together in a specific way to actually get it done. That's why you only see first party Saturn titles make use of it, because third parties weren't as familiar with the already difficult to code for hardware as the people who made it.

[Anonymous No.7253231]

>>7253215
This is what happens when a generation of kids are raised on Common Core and then the next generation of kids are raised on Zoom.

[Anonymous No.7253249]

>>7249576
It basically boils down to this:

VDP2 can do transparencies just fine. VDP1 can do transparencies but you have the following limitations:
1) It's slow. It takes 6x longer to draw a transparent sprite/polygon than it does to draw a non-transparent one.
2) Because of pixel overdraw, you can end up with corrupt transparencies due to getting transparent pixels drawn on top of each other in the same sprite/polygon. You can actually see this happening in some games that just do it without caring.
3) VDP1 transparencies can either blend with other VDP1 objects or VDP2 objects, but not both.

[Anonymous No.7253250]

>>7253216
>>7253203
See:>>7253092

[Anonymous No.7253263]

>>7253250
It's pretty clearly documented in the dev manuals:
https://antime.kapsi.fi/sega/files/ST-013-R3-061694.pdf
https://antime.kapsi.fi/sega/files/ST-058-R2-060194.pdf

[Anonymous No.7253862]

>>7253093
I could do both. I'm going to start with this series which reminds me of Jet Set Radio and Jet Set Radio Future.

[Anonymous No.7254004]

>>7249576
>get transparency working for the visual impact
>fuck up the tile order in the background

[Anonymous No.7254020]

>>7253063
What YouTube video?

[Anonymous No.7254030]

>>7253063
What’s your channel? I’ll give it a subscribe, could be interesting since you seem to have every game known to man.

[Anonymous No.7254069]

>>7249576
The Saturn can only do true transparency in extremely basic examples like this, yes. Let's recap

>only supports 50% opacity making smooth fading impossible
>transparent objects cannot in any way overlap
>VDP1 generated transparent sprites can in no way be distorted otherwise hideous artifacts appear
>transparent objects erase any VDP1 sprite underneath

For all these reasons, even under the best of circumstances the Saturn simply could not have matched the visuals of other 2D PSX games like SOTN, because the PSX hardware is just fundamentally better tailored to half transparency. You may cope now.

[Anonymous No.7254080]

>>7253063
Post your video nigger.

[Anonymous No.7254101]

>>7254069
>only supports 50% opacity making smooth fading impossible
It can also do additive blending.
>transparent objects cannot in any way overlap
Yes and no. The issue on VDP1 is that the blending may not be correct when you do it. On VDP2 I believe you can do it with the different layers.
>transparent objects erase any VDP1 sprite underneath
Not necessarily. VDP1 transparencies can blend with either VDP1 objects or VDP2 objects, just not both. So it will either erase VDP2 pixels, or VDP1 pixels depending on how you have it set. VDP2 can blend with both though.

[Anonymous No.7255919]

>>7249576
Every computer or console made in 1980-1992 could do transparencies. Often slow and not feasable for fast paced action games, but it's not rocket science to slap a giant sprite over the foreground and adapt the palette in realtime.

[Anonymous No.7256102]

Saturn can do both background (2d) transparency and polygon (3d) transparency. The problem is that
- you can either use one or the other, not both, and they can't overlap either
- 2d transparency could be used with sprites but then it deleted everything between the sprite and background (but, it was very fast to use). This is the same as how the SNES does it by the way.
- 3d transparency was super slow and did not work if the backgrounds used the VDP2, only if the backgrounds were also polygons.
- using 2d transparency made it very hard to do lightning, since you now had only 128 shades (or less) and had to precompute every color for every texture with palette gradients.

So most programmers said "fuck it, I'll just use meshes".

Except for the guy working on Sonic R, who made a custom engine running on 3 cpu cores that had two separate rendering pathways (one for fading things into the BG, one for doing transparent polygons). It wasn't faking anything, it was just stupidly complex so it could max out the hardware.

>>7253074
And also fundamentally incompatible with all of Sega's previous games going back to 1985, except for Virtua Fighter and Daytona (the later Model 1-2 games came out in 94-5-6, when the Saturn hardware was already complete).

That's the reason why they had to put the VDP2 in there. Even with the Dreamcast they worked together with videologic so the PowerVR2 had features like native palette texture modes, to make it easier to port older titles.

[Anonymous No.7256118]

>>7256102
>And also fundamentally incompatible with all of Sega's previous games going back to 1985, except for Virtua Fighter and Daytona (the later Model 1-2 games came out in 94-5-6, when the Saturn hardware was already complete).
>make a new system compatible with your older 2D arcade boards
>don't port any of them to the new system

WHAT WERE THEY THIIIIINKIIIIIIIIING?!

[Anonymous No.7256120]

>>7254101
>The issue on VDP1 is that the blending may not be correct when you do it.

It will be correct unless you combine RGB and Palette sprites. Or you are drawing on top of nothing, in which case there is nothing to apply transparency against and it won't be applied.

[Anonymous No.7256126]

>>7254069
Saturn actually could've handled that if it was running exclusively on the VDP1, but then it would've had twice as much slowdown and required the RAM cart, and any non-power-of-2 sprites would've had pixel overwrite.

[Anonymous No.7256432]

>>7255919
>but it's not rocket science to slap a giant sprite over the foreground and adapt the palette in realtime.

it's trivial if you have a hardware like vga which has an actual memory buffer holding an entire screen worth of pixels

it is not at all with the way 16bit consoles work - there is no image present in any ram and what you propose would be kinda insanely tricky even in theory

[Anonymous No.7256717]

>>7256432
Megadrive has a specific function where it can tell a sprite to not get displayed but just toggle the shadow/highlight bits for where the sprite should be drawn. It can be used to draw transparent overlays. You are limited to a slightly darker and a slightly brighter version of the color, but it works.

Ranger X used it to draw light beams, Sonic games to draw shadows on the special stages, etc.

[Anonymous No.7256724]

The daftest fucking thing is that even modern graphics cards start to struggle quickly when you layer transparency on top of transparency, you’d think someone would have John Carmack’d it by now.

[Anonymous No.7256735]

>>7256717
in other words the hardware supports it directly?

[Anonymous No.7256740]

>>7256735
Bingo.

[Anonymous No.7256763]

>>7256724
>The daftest fucking thing is that even modern graphics cards start to struggle quickly when you layer transparency on top of transparency, you’d think someone would have John Carmack’d it by now.

That's because transparency has to be order-dependent, and a read-modify-write operation. The latter can be brute forced, the first one cannot.

IIRC the best solution is to use deferred rendering, preferably on a tile located in L1 cache in the gpu (or the shader units), but even that is just throwing more speed at the problem (drawing it in ultra fast cache then copying the final content to framebuffer). But with vector and compute math done mid-way through rendering, shit can get dicey. iirc Geforce cards have done this ever since the 980 (forgot what generation that was, Kepler? Maxwell?).

On a side note Carmack probably already solved the problem but couldn't implement it due to existing patents.

[Anonymous No.7256778]

>>7256763

God is there anything more restrictive to all forms of human progress than fucking patents.

Patent pending.

[Anonymous No.7256984]

>>7252320
>>/vr/image/gT_GEdRdlz7ULxpTbkCg7A
Kill yourself.

[Anonymous No.7256994]

>>7256778
Patents aren't really a problem. They only last like 20 years. Copyright is where the fuckery is. Shit lasts a goddamn century.

[Anonymous No.7257008]

Mega Man X4 does one set of transparencies and fails to do another at the exact same time. It's a really weird system.

[Anonymous No.7257012]

>>7253263
>>7256102
kek some nonsense

[Anonymous No.7257014]

>>7257008
>weird pic for fail system
Better off as PCFX or N64 game

[Anonymous No.7257121]

>>7253030
because it's wrong

[Anonymous No.7257547]

>>7257008
Because one is a VDP2 background layer and the other is a VDP1 sprite that is layered between VDP1 and VDP2 objects.

VDP2 = no problem with transparencies
VDP1 = transparencies only work if the stars align properly.

[Anonymous No.7257638]

>>7253063
Fuck off you attention seeking hoarder dipshit. and take your faggy notes with you,

[Anonymous No.7258245]

>>7257014
Can N64 even do unblurred 2D? It did that to every 3D texture but I'm not sure if it was able to treat 2D things any differently. It always seems like its weird 3-point filtering is being used in places you wouldn't want it, like text and Yoshi's story.

[Anonymous No.7258462]

>>7253063
that's a nice collection anon, i played both of the games and love how cute the characters are.. but did you see all the promotional animation they did for the 2nd game? there's like these episode recap sort of things for almost every single thing that happens in the game and they made it for the staff and voice cast as a gift, it's on youtube but i can't remember what it's called. the creator of the game also said something about creating rami with the intention of letting people have a make believe daughter. my understanding of japanese isn't the best and i don't know what to make of that sort of state of mind.. but the strange neo-feudal aesthetic they've created is so so cool

it's all very genuine and heartfelt and good harmless fun

[Anonymous No.7258548]

>>7249576
>>7249582
Sega Saturn can do true transparency, but its limited and inflexible. Its totally useless for 3d games but for 2d it is sometimes usable.

The 2d layers can be made transparent, and sprites can be drawn transparent over other sprites. But there is no alpha channel in the frame-buffer, so transparent drawing only applies between sprites but not the background, and also only non distorted sprites draw properly as the quads are overdrawn when distorted.

[Anonymous No.7259443]

>>7258548
>But there is no alpha channel in the frame-buffer, so transparent drawing only applies between sprites but not the background,

In Indexed color mode, you have a framebuffer bit (or several) that tells you whether the pixel should be transparent or not, and with which background. That's technically an "alpha channel". However you cannot blend individual sprites, all sprites are drawn opaque (overwriting), and when you blend the topmost sprite with a background, it looks like the ones between them get "lost".

In RGB mode the system has a draw command bit that enables either drawing with additive blending, or as a shadow. PSX did the same, it just had more more useful blend modes, not just shadow and addition. The problem with this is that you cannot blend them with backgrounds, or even sort them over/under backgrounds (all polygons must have the same z-sort since all bits are used for RGB color).

3d transparency isn't an issue, but then you have to use VDP1 only for the entire game, which is ultra slow.

[Anonymous No.7259512]

>>7259443
> 3d transparency isn't an issue
I am pretty sure 3d transparency is completely broken because of the way the Saturn renders quads, it overdraws when the quad is distorted which fucks up the transparency because pixels are drawn multiple times.

[Anonymous No.7259559]

>>7258245
Development kit say so. Both cart and system ram help the animation.

[Anonymous No.7259589]

>>7259512
The overdraw isn't that much of an issue, most TVs at the time used RF or Composite, so people simply wouldn't haven noticed the distorted pixels. You could also draw equal height sprites to avoid it completely.

Real issue wasn't that, it was the speed. VDP1 is already extremely slow, transparency makes it 4 times slower.

[Anonymous No.7259607]

>>7256735
Yes.

This is the "Shadow Mode".

[Anonymous No.7259608]

>>7259589
> draw equal height sprites
Yes for 2d, but for 3d you are forced to draw your sprites whatever shape the geometry and projection dictates, so if you tried to draw transparent polygons in 3d the transparency would be all fucked and you would notice that because the color would be completely wrong

[Anonymous No.7259620]

>>7259607
>SNES real HW can do it
Only CPU software tricks.

[Anonymous No.7259664]

>>7259608
There are games that did that. It looks all janky, like looking through a broken glass window. It's not that bad, it just looks really weird. And like I said, the real problem wasn't that, it's that the machine drops to 3fps speed when doing so because the VDP1 is slow as shit.

Later devkits came up with solutions to this, one of the former devkit engineers came to sega retro talking about it a long time ago. The first one was to rasterize a triangle line by line on the VDP1 (a library would handle it for your engine automatically), the other was multipass rendering where you draw your model opaque up first, then pass it to VDP2 for rendering while you draw the rest of your scenery. However they came up with these starting in very late 1996, and Burning Rangers was the only game to use it.

[Anonymous No.7260175]

>>7256763
Another solution i've read a bit about is basically storing a linked list of texels/pixels while rendering individual objects and then running all the transparency at the end - you still run into list insert/sorting issues, but you don't need to worry about sorting at the asset/object level.

[Anonymous No.7260708]

[Anonymous No.7262520]

>>7260708
It's easy to forget this game exists when you aren't looking at it.

[Anonymous No.7262537]

>>7262520
But I like 3D Blast. A nice relaxing companion to the other tense ones. Great music too, Genesis anyway.

[Anonymous No.7262564]

>>7262537
It is until you get to that god awful Spring Stadium Zone. I dropped. Can't stand even looking at that shit.

[Anonymous No.7262569]

liked that too, this is the only 3d blast pic I actually have saved lel