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2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/vr/ - Retro Games

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6995729 No.6995729 [Reply] [Original]

no emulation. just as god intended

>> No.6995741

wow great for like the 12 people that give a shit about playing pcengine. whats next a spectrum fpga

>> No.6995746
File: 55 KB, 193x215, bonk.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6995746

>>6995741
>shitting on the BasedEngine
what's the matter, too retro for you, zoomlet?

>> No.6995752
File: 33 KB, 680x534, 1600435024115.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6995752

>no emulation. just as god intended

>> No.6995767

>>6995741
Anon, I...
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/spectrumnext/zx-spectrum-next-issue-2

>> No.6995798

fpga is emulation though

>> No.6995804

>hardware emulation is not emulation

>> No.6995817

>>6995729
Exactly. Which is why I bought components to put together something for the MiSTer project. Which plays exactly the same games. In the same way. With out Physical media what so ever. I could use the same controllers if I wanted to. Which I don't. So I use six button genesis controllers.

>> No.6995821

>>6995798
It's not x86 software emulation.

>> No.6995826

>>6995767
This must have been a money laundering thing

>> No.6995832

>>6995729
Can't you get PC Engines pretty cheap though? It's the fucking games that are the stinger, can't wait until boomers are dead so I can finally play Snatcher as god intended lmao

>> No.6995834

>>6995821
it is emulation none the less, does it really matter to you the intricacies of how it is achieved? mister cores are still getting updated to increase accuracy, if that's not emulation I don't know what is

>> No.6995838

>>6995821
So if someone emulates on ARM it's fine?

>> No.6995839

so analogue is like apple and MiSTer is like android huh? I'll go with the MiSTer and enjoy multiple cores instead of a pretty shell and the useless disc drive that's only there for autists.

it is emulation btw

>> No.6995847

>>6995729
Is it the real hardware or is it something pretending to be the real hardware? If it's the later, it's emulation. By the way, FPGA is still software emulation, with the only difference being that you can reprogram the CPU instead of translating code on the fly.

>> No.6995853

Analogue has fooled the world into believing that FPGA is superior to emulation by definition, since the majority has no idea what FPGA actually means. Now they collect the cash from those fools to fund more marketing BS.

>> No.6995858

>>6995839
It says no emulation right there on the page, sweetie

>> No.6995860

>>6995858
t. Analogue marketing department

>> No.6995861

>>6995853
I'd wager that's a small contribution to their bottom line.

>> No.6995865

>>6995826
Cope.

>> No.6995873

>>6995729
shill

>> No.6995903

For decades, we called things like Dendys "clone consoles" and we used the word "emulation" to refer to software emulation, and we communicated pretty clearly with that.
Now there's this group of reactionaries who, annoyed with the cult of FPGA, have decided their mission in life is to "educate" everyone who uses "emulation" as shorthand for "software emulation."
The sad thing is, their actual point--summed up well in >>6995853--is completely valid, and they could just point out that hardware clones aren't inherently any better than software emulation, but instead they derail their own topic by preaching their dogma of how they want the word "emulation" itself to be used.

>> No.6995923

>>6995903
FGPAs really blur the line, though. You can't really consider them clone consoles, because nothing is stopping you rewriting the FGPA to something else.

FGPAs are emulation, plain and simple. You can argue about the benefits of an FGPA based approach, and I think in a decade or two they'll be a great alternative to real consoles, but right now they still have plenty of issues because the core is only as good as the available data and the skill of the guys working for free.

>> No.6995973
File: 195 KB, 824x534, Screenshot from 2020-10-17 08-33-08.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6995973

>>6995923
In the field of electronics, the term "emulation" is firmly established as a shorthand for software emulation. Articles such as pic related discussing the merits of "FPGA vs. emulation" for microchip prototyping are understood by their readers as jargon for that context. I don't see value in trying to forcibly change that language usage. The actual thing that matters is that the bullet-point "No [sofware] emulation." in Analogue's advertising is snake oil.

>> No.6995993

>>6995973
All I'm seeing in your screenshot is a company trying to sell a product.

>> No.6996030

>>6995993
Are you being difficult on purpose? We're discussing language usage. It being an ad doesn't change its value as an example of communication. It shows that the writer of this text expects the target audience to find meaning in using these words this way.
But if you don't like this example, there's no shortage of FPGA vs. emulation in chip design discussion and articles on the internet if you'd like to google up your own.

>> No.6996058

>>6996030
>We're discussing language usage
By a company trying to sell a product.
>It being an ad doesn't change its value as an example of communication
It does. If my sole purpose is to sell you a product, my language will be tailored in such a way as to sell you said product.

>> No.6996152

>>6995973
I don't know anything about making microchips but the text past the bottom of that screenshot says things like "emulators boast muscular chassis wrapped in heavy cables and accompanied by hefty price tags" and "While emulators can reach speeds of up to 1 MHz, they often have to settle for 500 KHz or so."
That doesn't sound like software emulation.
It sounds like the meaning of "emulation" for these people is actually some kind of hardware.

>> No.6996158

>>6996152
>his snes9x doesn't boast a muscular chassis wrapped in heavy cables
Yikes.

>> No.6996174

>>6995832
Prices have risen drastically since COVID. Beginning of the year you could find them for like 30 bucks upward depending on condition. Now good luck getting one for under 200

>> No.6996192
File: 138 KB, 1119x673, lol.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6996192

>>6996152
It's funny how he cut the screenshot short right before things completely go off the rails and it's made abundantly clear that it's of no relation to what we're discussing.
http://www.s2cinc.com/company/news/2016/emulation-vs.-prototyping-the-performance-curve-crossover-ee-times

>> No.6996197

>>6995729
>>6995741
>>6995798
>>6995847
>>6995853
>>6995903
>>6995923
>>6995973
>>6996030
>FPGA
Faggotry Pedophilia Gay Activator?

On a serious note, FPGA is pure faggotry.

>> No.6996204

I'm starting to think 4channel may not be the expert source of authoritative information I assumed it was

>> No.6996327

>>6996204
Why would you ever assume that?

>> No.6996353

>>6996327
Think he was being sarcastic, anon.

>> No.6996387

>>6996197
One day someone will find your post funny, keep trying anon, I believe in you!

>> No.6996393

>>6995729
If I don't notice an effective difference, I don't care

>> No.6996405 [DELETED] 

>>6995741
OI
ME S[ECCY

>> No.6996408

>>6995741
OI
ME SPECCY

>> No.6996456

>>6996387
A few people already did.

>> No.6996472

>>6996456
That is untrue. It's like a joke a 10 year old would make.
>FPGA?? More like Fat Poo Gay Anus!! AHAHAH

>> No.6996506

>>6996174
This just isn't true. Pc engines and coregrafx in working condition that aren't yellowed to shit have been a hundred bucks for a couple of years. Maybe 20 percent jump once covid hit

>> No.6996597

>>6996472
Obviously you've not been around /vr/ long enough to see who found it funny.

>> No.6996709

The emulation vs. FPGA thing isn't even the issue for me. I actually like their products, but it's so fucking impossible to get them, and their business model encourages releasing seven or eight units at a time since otherwise there's no way to build a market for an emulator box, "perfect" or no.

>> No.6996756
File: 358 KB, 220x163, tenor.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6996756

>>6995729
who is this "god" and is he stronger than John Rambo???

>> No.6996784

Waste of money and space. Everything this does can be achieved through software emulation. You fell for the meme. Just accept it and move on.

>> No.6996795

>>6996784
but oh noes!! what if I am not having a truly "AUTHENTIC" experience???

I do not want to experience the olive garden of games

>> No.6996796

>>6995729
lmao my wii can emulate TG16

>> No.6996817

>>6996796
Anything can emulate the tg16 nowadays. This thing is for autistic fags who will swear they're getting half a frame of input lag or some other shit excuse to not enjoy their games. Gotta get that close to real ExPEriEnCe.

>> No.6996875

>>6996796
But is it an FPGA?

>> No.6996886

>>6996456
Time to take your meds.

>> No.6996917

>>6996817
Yes.

>> No.6996953

>>6995729
No emulation and a whopping 75 in production so anyone actually interested has virtually no chance to get it.

>> No.6996975

>>6996953
That's about as many units as there are meme engine fans who'd be willing to buy such a thing.

>> No.6996995

>>6996886
I don't do drugs. Drugs are for faggots like you who can't cope with the truth.

>> No.6996996

>>6996506
I guess I was quoting Super Potato prices for a yellowed PC engine on its own vs what I saw online. Wouldn't be surprised if they've been that expensive all the time desu

>> No.6997195
File: 59 KB, 926x736, SID.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6997195

>>6995729
I still wonder if anyone finally managed to put the SID chip on a FPGA on a more complete level, since usually some things are missing (I already know about the various attempts at doing that like FPGASID). Maybe because the Chip was kind of an analogue/digital hybrid and on the other hand because it wasn't that well documented or (yet) reverse engineered but also the original chip revisions had various very noticeable variations in sound.

>> No.6997379 [DELETED] 

>>6996197
beyond based.
>>6996387
>>6996472
>>6996886
kike/shill detected, /pol/ >>>>

>> No.6997437

I'm an fpga dev.

FPGA allows the possibility of extremely timing accurate emulation. There is not debate about this and software can't accopmlish this, especially with any system wherea single cpu core isn't fast enough to emulate it.


But, the main issue is the detail and accuracy of the information used to build the FPGA model. You have a bit of flexibility and slack in most console designs that only is noticeable under certain circumstances.


For example, a 68k CPU that executes all instructions correctly, but all in exactly 1 clock cycle each. That is wrong, as the 68k internally runs microcode that will take a varying amount of cycles for different types of instructions. For example, divide always takes a llong time, and the exact time can vary depending on the numbers you are dividing.

Simpler single-cpu systems can be "faked" like this.Some inaccurate timing here and there won't prevent the game from processing in time for the next vblank interrupt. But what happens when you have another complex system block running at the same time, and they have to talk to each other?

FPGA accuracy can be on a continuum. A good engineer can painstakingly reverse engineer the exact timings for every possible case and build a replacement verilog model that 1:1 matches against a real chip. This is what kevtris does (he does the Analogue console engineering). Does a DMA unit under some conditions fail to generate an interrupt with a certain length DMA? He figures that out. And it always leads to weird, unexplained behavior in emulators never happening on accurate FPGA sim.

>> No.6997441

At the other end of the accuracy spectrum you have stuff like the Mister GBA core. The author freely admits he wrote this fpga core based on a software emulator, so he never even hooked up a logic analyzer to a real gba to see bus activity, etc. As a result, the author made many assumptions about how things work that are "true" most of the time.
For example, the CPU timings are not modeled. This actually isn't a problem most of the time - until it is. Games try to dma graphics at inexplicably odd times, interrupts are missed or too early.
Thus, while you luckily get a "playable" core, it's no more accurate than the software emulator and documentation it was based on. Many games have minor visual glitching and single-pixel/line issues.

And so in this case FPGA cores just become a software emulator that's more cumbersome and closer to the video output. That's not a bad thing in itself, but such a project leaves a lot of potential accuracy on the table.

>> No.6997630

>>6996472
>Fat Poo Gay Anus
i lol'd. Then again i'd find your face funny too :(

>> No.6997797

All this talk here makes me wonder if anyone had a copy of Byuu's "FPGAs Aren't Magic" article.

>> No.6997829

>>6997797
he later backpedaled on that article, saying that he was too harsh at the time

>> No.6997842

Emufags BTFO yet again

>> No.6997848

>>6996158
i laughed, thanks anon

>> No.6997881

monke need coomsum

>> No.6997957

>Analogue
Cool, yet another piece of hardware with intentional artificial scarcity and ridiculous shipping fees that they won't sell after the preorder window.

>> No.6998026

>>6995729
It will sound gay as fuck but...JUST GET A FUCKING MISTer FPGA!!!!

It has the same Cyclone V processor inside. and it can also be a Mega CD, a SNES, a Genesis, a NES and everything else.

FUCK ANALouge!

>> No.6998027

>>6997797
Took me all of one minute

https://archive.is/4Umsk

>> No.6998054

>>6998026
Or maybe you should suggest to him to just emulate on his damn PC. There's no literal difference. Fuck FPGA, fuck the MiSTer and fuck ANALogue.

>> No.6998078
File: 92 KB, 1280x719, photo_2020-09-19_21-09-42.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6998078

>>6998054
If you have a really powerful pc emulation is a viable solution, but DE10NANO+MISTer is just a terrific investment nonetheless. Shit, i finally could play Rondo of Blood as it should be after a few years that my turbo duo has DIED on me. It felt like the real console. IS JUST THAT GOOD. Especially if you have a CRT monitor (better 240p consumer, but for easy of use i connect a VGA monitor 480p and cranck a bit scanlines)

It's not really necessary to get all the "package", just the de10nano (100 bucks if you are in the US, 140 euro if you are in europe) and the ram from aliexpress if you don't want to spend too much.

>> No.6998104

>>6995729
>uses hardware assisted software emulation
>i-it's not emulation!
yeah, sure it's not

>> No.6998179

>>6997437
It's sad when you type out an entire novel of bullshit that no one's going to read because you out yourself as a larper in the second paragraph.

>> No.6998185

>>6998054
Connecting your rig to a 240p CRT is a massive pain in the ass these days. Having a dedicated device is pretty useful.

>> No.6998209

>>6995838
of course
look at how android, sbc's and chink portables achieve perfection without relying on shitty fpga's

>> No.6998275

>>6998185
>not having a crt dedicated rig
just use shaders then

>> No.6998345

>>6995821
like clockwork
>person A says FPGA consoles aren't emulation
>person B says that emulating hardware with other hardware is still emulation
>person A gets buttblasted and moves the goal posts.

>> No.6998601

>>6998185
If I wanted to play games on a CRT TV, then I would use my game consoles to do so. Which I do for light gun games.

>> No.6998612

>>6998601
You can use original lightguns on CRT with MiSTer

>> No.6998638

>>6995729
is there a way to burn PCE games?
i'd buy something like this but absolutely can't afford retro games anymore, the market is nuts

>> No.6998659

>>6996817
Can't they just buy the actual console ?

>> No.6998671

>>6998638
There always is a "jailbreak" firmware for analogue consoles shortly after they release by the engineer Kevtris (who avoids taking credit for them).

The Jailbreak should allow ROMs and ISOs to play off a SD card. SD cart slot is in the back of this unit.

>> No.6999891

>>6998638
you can burn PCE CD games onto cd-r's. My duo works fine with shitty verbatim burns as well as taiyo yuiden discs.

Just make sure to burn at 4x speed

>> No.6999901

>>6995729
>It's not software emulation, it's hardware emulation
>>6995752
Fuck, does anyone have the original image of that dude? It would be perfect for this thread

>> No.6999907

FPGA is emulation to me, but really a different kind, with its benefits over software emulation but also downsides such as price. Just do what works.

>> No.6999928
File: 70 KB, 642x898, Untitled.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6999928

>>6998179
I intentionally dumbed down what I'm talking about so your smooth brain can understand it.

Do you want to know why the mister guys can't seem to get their sdram modules working reliably? Why something as simple as pc133 sdram continuously eludes them, and why they had to make special speed testing cores just to make sure their ram boards work? And then a person tries the same core and ram board on a different DE10-nano board, the test fails?
Because they haven't constrained the input DQ lines correctly. And so you get timing violations on input data being read back into the fpga driven by the sdram. The exact amount of violation depends on the way the fitter routes the LE's near the io ring inside the FPGA. This is why some people have crashing SNES cores and other people don't.

As for why sorgelig doesn't know this, I don't know. They have some bullshit constraints SDC in the framework but it's obviously not doing anything for the timing issue. The second issue is they drive the damn sdram over a fucking 0.1" pin header at 140mhz without even using midpoint termination. And I'm not interested in telling them because they get way too butthurt over anyone insulting their precious open source religion.

>> No.6999930 [DELETED] 

>>6999922

>> No.6999956

>>6995729
The fuck is that piece of crap again?

>> No.6999957

>>6997797
Byuu is technically correct. He wrote the article as a kneejerk reaction to the Super nt coming out, which is closed source, and his preferred religion is open source.

He is right in that FPGA doesn't magically make anything more accurate. It only gives you POSSIBILITY to make your model more accurate, but you still have to do the legwork and RE to figure out how.

The other main problem with emulators is that most coders who write them, and write the console documentation, are software guys only with limited or no hardware experience. They just look at the CPU binary for a given game, document register accesses and then infer what is happening. WHereas a hw guy with digital design experience will make much more accurate guesses as to the underlying hardware, giving a better chance of getting the timing relationship and result correct.

Byuu ended up getting butthurt because kevin took 1 year of madman work to make a more accurate SNES model than byuu was able to do in 10+ years.
This happened because kevin made his own custom test harnesses and probed the original chipset over many, many test vectors, doing stuff like running both his FPGA cpu and the original 65816 in parallel for days at a time running randomized test code and trapping any differences in timing or data bus.
And then many things could be inferred, providing better data than byuu had to work with.

>> No.6999964

>>6999907
From analog's point of view, would "No software emulation" be a good enough tagline?