Best N64 game

[Anonymous No.6995058]

It's based

[Anonymous No.6995068]

The shiren series is amazing.
Shiren 2 in particular is a fan favorite in Japan

[Anonymous No.6995104]

>>6995058
>playing consolecuck roguelikes
Lmao.

[Anonymous No.6995128]

>>6995104
>i can only enjoy ONE type of roguelike

[Anonymous No.6995774]

>>6995058
What's it based on?

[Anonymous No.6995917]

>>6995058
Can anyone explain to me why every company wanting to make a rogue in the vein of shiren HAS to team up with spike? Do they have a patent or something on the genre?

[Anonymous No.6996301]

>>6995058
I should really try the other Shiren games and see if they're any better. I played a lot of the first one before getting suspicious of the fortune teller and delving into the mechanics and it kind of soiled the game realizing it's all a big slot machine.

[Anonymous No.6997321]

>>6995917
It's just Japan for some reason. They really like that take on the genre.

[Anonymous No.6998149]

>>6995058
Based indeed

[Anonymous No.6998470]

Any word on translation efforts? I heard there were some people translating Shiren N64 and the GBC game.

[Anonymous No.6999221]

>>6998470
It's probably one of the easiest series to play untranslated.

[Anonymous No.6999352]

>>6996301
What? I 100% the ds release of 1 and don't remember the fortune teller

[Anonymous No.7000858]

>>6999352
She's in the first town and gives you a fortune based on weather. The weather variation applies either way but the fortune teller will say which it is. There's a way to manipulate it but I won't get into that now.

The levels, enemies and item placements are all pre-generated and then altered depending on the weather. So for example "cold winds" tends to mean less items or more ways for them to get fucked with. A seed in one run with favorable weather got a bunch of crucial stuff on a certain level, blastwaves, a good sword and I think a jar of holding (don't have my notes here) whereas in the "cold winds" run no matter what you do the game spawns field bandits who turn everything to weeds before you can get them. I was save scumming heavily to delve into how the game works and ran into many completely unwinnable scenarios.

Long story short, there's two ways to beat Shiren. Either grind items in the warehouse till you can brute force bad weather or keep doing random runs till the game hands you an easy run and you feel great for finally winning. It's a devilishly designed slot machine.

[Anonymous No.7000975]

>>7000858
I don't know anything about the weather system, but you really do not need that much luck to beat Shiren 1 without the warehouse.

[Anonymous No.7001176]

>>7000975
I will note that all my testing was on the Super Famicom version which is overall harder than the DS port of it that was officially translated. But they both work the same. How you claim to have beaten the game like this and never noticed the fortune teller is a little weird. You pass by her every time you start a new run.

[Anonymous No.7001202]

>>7000975
>>7000975
I will note that all my testing was on the Super Famicom version which is overall harder than the DS port of it that was officially translated. But they both work the same. I did extensive testing where the game would generate the exact same map lay out and item placement with different fortunes. It's pretty hard to win a given run without the warehouse if the only decent weapon available gets turned into a weed before you can possibly reach it etc.
Also how you claim to have beaten the game like this and never noticed the fortune teller is a little weird. You pass by her every time you start a new run.

[Anonymous No.7001237]

>>7001202
I've beaten the SFC version on a completely fresh save file and it's not that bad. I'm sure the longest win streak for Shiren won't be as long as the longest Nethack or Crawl streak, but overall it's perfectly reasonable. Like yeah, some runs are harder than others, that's how randomized games go. Don't fight every monster. Let monsters damage each other (but be careful about the finishing shot!). Stop and recover when you have a chance. Lead a monster in circles while you heal. And of course, exploit rice ball monsters to stock up on food early.

[Anonymous No.7001261]

>>7000858
it's never unwinnable
git gud lad

[Anonymous No.7001267]

>>7000858
>>7001202
Hmm, I remember that "scorching wind" quote but I really never put much stock into that NPC. Didn't even bother talking to her most of the time desu

There can be a solitaire like quality to Shiren, especially to the 100 floor bonus dungeon, but the main quest lets you stock up and progress side quests so "bad runs" hurt less. Not a bad thing.

After clearing Fey's Puzzle on DS I went and did Table Mountain on SNES in a straight run, but I admittedly got lucky and Jar of Change'd myself a Kabra Blade. The game is mostly about managing what items you do find and knowing when to skip floors with dangerous enemy spawns.

[Anonymous No.7001297]

>>7001237
I know all that but what I'm saying is there's a hidden luck system that can severely affect things and I ran into several completely unwinnable games. Most roguelikes have enough options that you can work around some bad rng, but in Shiren something as simple as npt getting a decent weapon can doom your whole run.

>>7001267
Yeah you can always just ignore her. I started this testing because I kept getting conflicting information on whether her fortunes were real. Unfortunately they are and seeing how the game does it's dungeon generating kind of soured me on the whole thing.

>>7001261
Lol

[Anonymous No.7001304]

>>7001297
Nah you just aren't familiar enough with the items and game mechanics
Once again git gud

[Anonymous No.7001310]

>>7001297
>I know all that but what I'm saying is there's a hidden luck system that can severely affect things and I ran into several completely unwinnable games. Most roguelikes have enough options that you can work around some bad rng, but in Shiren something as simple as npt getting a decent weapon can doom your whole run.
If you couldn't at least make it into table mountain then it was your fault, not the game's fault. If you made it to table mountain and never found so much as a +0 katana then that's some abnormally bad luck.

[Anonymous No.7001339]

>>7001304
Double lol but nice try.

>>7001310
Yeah that's what I'm talking about.

[Anonymous No.7001346]

>>7001339
>>7001310
You don't need a weapon brainlet
git gud

[Anonymous No.7001361]

>>6995104
>actually playing Toady's Autistic Adventure: Simulator is Crash

[Anonymous No.7001661]

>>7001297
The dungeon is always pretty simple, its about learning the enemy and item behavior

[Anonymous No.7002752]

>>7001661
Yeah it's that it's ultimately too simple and too reliant on rng that soured me in the end. I also discovered some other weird things, like not only are the maps with their items, traps, monsters etc pre-generated then affected by the current weather it also affects enemy hit rates which also don't seem to be random. In this scenario for example >>6996301 I got it so that this evil soldier would be encountered 12 steps from spawning on the floor if you headed straight that way. In the Spring Winds run I would hit, it would miss then I would hit, it would hit and the next hit I would kill it. Every time. The exact same map, with Cold Winds it would score a hit both times. Every time. I could manipulate it by walking back either 6 or 12 steps before engaging in combat which would yield the same 'miss round 1, hit round 2' scenario as the other weather but any other variation I tried had the same result as initally. How it actually calculates hits versus misses I'm not sure it doesn't really matter in most cases but it was one of the things that really stood out to me when I was doing the testing because it seems odd.

[Anonymous No.7003249]

>>7002752
Could you post more specific conclusions and testing methods regarding the fortune teller?

Some examples unrelated to the fortune teller:
>Load a save state and perform some actions. Load the save state again and perform the same actions. Random elements will be the same(for example, damage variance and missing). This suggests that RNG does not advance every frame, it only advances when it's called.
Note that this form of RNG is about as random as any other game, it's just easier to manipulate in real time.
>Load a save state in town and go to the next floor. Load the save state again, wait for 1 turn, then go to the next floor. The same map(including enemies and items) will be generated, but other random elements will be different. This suggests that there are multiple RNG values.

The two observations above explain what you've encountered.
Regarding the fortune teller, it seems that all it does is change which map will be generated to the next one and display some text(maybe based on which map will be generated). You can get the same effect by walking around in town enough(I'm not sure what triggers it, but try walking all the way to the right, then all the way to the left). You can also change which fortune you get by walking around in town enough. Having your fortune told doesn't lock in the next map.

[Anonymous No.7004032]

>>7003249
Right, so the map and fortune are separate. Her fortune will change depending both on the number of steps you have taken as well as when you change directions. That's also how the game selects which map you will get each time.

So by doing a bunch of walking back and forth, counting steps and saving I was able to get it so the game would generate the same map with with different weathers.

By same map, I mean the exact same floor lay out and most of the same enemy and item placements. The enemies will be in the same locations but for example in one version most of them are evil soldiers which are easy enough to deal with whereas in the other half of them are field bandits who turn everything to weeds before you can get to them. There were also mines in that version where there weren't in the other.

The way the game generates which map you will reach next also by the number of steps, turns you've taken and times you've changed direction. So after getting to a new map and making a save I would explore more or less normally at first to see what monsters, items and traps etc were there. Then when ready to move on I just had to make sure that I followed the same steps and turns to make it to the exit and by doing so the next map would be the same also. That's when I started to notice how enemy hits didn't seem to be random either since I'd end up fighting the same couple enemies dozens of times through the testing and started to note that if one missed when I first encountered it that it always would on that round.

[Anonymous No.7004053]

>>7004032
A bit more detail on that pic for example, in both map layouts that same bag of gitans is there and is the same amount, just that in one version it has mines around it and in the other version it doesn't. Those are the effects of weather in that current run.

Final note, you also don't have to talk to the fortune teller. There is always weather, she will just tell you which weather is in effect when you happen to talk to her and then takes effect when you start the dungeon. Also it can still change after talking to her if you walk around a bunch. So if you were playing normally and got a bad fortune it may be wise to Wander around town a bit before heading out. You won't know what you're in for but there's at least a chance of something better.

Also final note, I think this is why it was so up in the air whether she was real at all or not for so long. Since weather changes depending on your steps and turns and she just tells you what the current winds are like it's entirely possible to have her tell you spring winds are coming but because of your steps have it cycle to something different by the time you get to the exit. It's a fair but of walking you have to do to cycle the weather so it wouldn't happen often but certainly enough that it threw her fortunes into suspicion.

[Anonymous No.7004170]

ITT: autist shocked to learn how random number generator works

[Anonymous No.7004194]

>>7004170
Most roguelikes are much more complex than this one. Shiren to start and then the rest of Chunsoft's mystery dungeon games like Pokemon, Chocobo etc basically set the standard for Japanese "roguelite" games which are sort of a blend of roguelikes and jrpgs.

[Anonymous No.7004892]

>>7004053
I did some more testing and found that walking, waiting, and turning don't directly affect which map is generated. Turning doesn't seem to have any effect at all.
Here's what I've come to understand:
-Map RNG advances a few times when you have your fortune told.
-Map RNG advances many times when you enter a building.
-Map RNG advances every turn you stand next to the fortune teller(walking, waiting, attacking, etc. all work). However, sometimes the same map layout is used multiple times in a row.
-When the same map layout is used, the position of items, enemies, and traps are the same, but their types can be different. I only managed to change one trap into a different kind of trap. I couldn't confirm for myself that an enemy can become a different kind of enemy, but I'll take your word for it.
-The fortune teller's prediction changes depending on map RNG. The RNG used for damage variance and missing does not affect the fortune teller's prediction.

So, the fortune teller does affect how the map generates. But I don't see how it correlates to what she says at all. How do you differentiate bad luck produced by the fortune teller from coincidental bad luck?

[Anonymous No.7005501]

>>7004892
>But I don't see how it correlates to what she says at all.

It seems pretty straightforward to me. The fortune teller doesn't change anything herself, she just gives insight to the current weather effect you're under. The way the game works is it has a series of premade maps that then have variations depending on the weather.

So with this mine >>7004032 for example, it will always show up in that position if you're on that map with that weather. I even tested going back to a save several floors before and if you keep to the right number of steps each time you can get it to generate the same maps consistently.

So it's not that the game randomly drops more mines, it pulls up a map that has more mines. It's really a pretty smart way to make a roguelike work with the limitations of a console but it also explains why the game always felt a little weird.

Fatal Labyrinth incidentally works the same way but minus weather variations. Each floor has a set of premade levels associated with it which cycle as you take various actions. In that game you can actually get out of sync on one floor by doing too many actions in one seed and then get back to having the same floor generate if you take the same number of extra actions in the other.

So say you're going from level 1 to 2 in seed 1 you take 15 turns to reach the exit and get map A. In seed 2 you take 20 turns and get map B when you reach the exit. You're now on map A in seed 1, map B in seed 2. Normally if you continue you would probably end up in say maps C and D respectively. But it's also possible to manipulate either so you both end up on the same map, say C and continue from there.

[vaginaisevil !!xBEjDksE4NW No.7005582]

>>6995774
kys newfaggot

4chan is a site that uses words like faggot to equal obnoxious as that is how people talked in the 90s and 4chan was made in 03. pc culture was banned on your redditor subs you grew up on so you don't know how to talk hip (without nigger culture to help you (of which the sjw society backs up (ironically))).

Based heads were on coke and they were seen as cool, ergo based = cool. Fags were obnoxious ergo homo means you're being a faggot in some way, obnoxious in some way.

Dumb nigger. Lurk moar and do research.
>>6995058
>expecting me to use jewgle image search or to read moonrunes
Guess I won't play it!

Then again I could look up chun soft....*does it*

>differeing name on wikipedia
>control plus f 64
>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiren_the_Wanderer_2
>same people as POPULAR Terraria game of today of which is in no way retro

I bet I know why the zoomer found this game to play.

[Anonymous No.7005838]

>>7005582
>meming on yourself by not getting the antimeme

[Anonymous No.7005989]

>>7005582
guys i think something is wrong with this tripfag

[Anonymous No.7006162]

>>7005501
I understand that there are maps with the same overall layout(map shape, placement of features) but different variations(the particular type of features). But I don't see what that has to do with weather.
What is the logical step between "there are multiple map variations" and "there is a persistent value that determines which map variation you get"?

[Anonymous No.7006462]

>>7006162
So there's a given map layout with set items and monsters, that's the base. Then there's one of six weather forecasts that alter that base map. Cold winds does things like make more of the monsters field bandits, rice changers, curse girls etc. Hot winds adds more traps and so forth. Why they chose to do it that way I can't say for sure but all the testing indicates that's how it works with being able to consistently generate the same maps with the same variations consistent with the weather.

Not to harp on the example too much but it's just such an obvious one. In one run with good weather a map has a bunch of great items you can get. That exact same map if you start the run with bad weather is full of field bandits who turn everything to weeds before you can get to them.

[Anonymous No.7006482]

>>7006462
I don't understand how you came to this conclusion. What sort of testing did you do?
Can you change the weather in any way other than by standing next to the fortune teller?

[Anonymous No.7006520]

>>7006482
The weather changes on a cycle given how many steps you take. The bulk of the testing was on two seeds of the same map set. I manipulated till I got the fortune teller to give me two different weather results, one clearly good (spring) and one clearly bad (cold winds) but the map layout was identical otherwise.

Then I went from there. Also as noted if you reach the exit in tbe same number of steps and turns you'll generate the same map again. That's how even though the field bandit map was on floor 4 or 5 I was still able to get the same map layout with the change being the monsters. Or the example here >>7004032 where it's the same map but one has mines etc.

[Anonymous No.7006624]

>>7006520
I also managed to get the same map layout to appear with different fortunes. But, I didn't notice a correlation between how good the fortune is and how good the map features are. I think I'll do some more testing to try to confirm that.
If it's true, how do you know it's a persistent effect?

I don't understand the wording on your second last sentence. What do you mean "floor 4 or 5"?

[vaginaisevil !!xBEjDksE4NW No.7007092]

>censoring me

>>6995774
kys newfaggot

4chan is a site that uses words like faggot to equal obnoxious as that is how people talked in the 90s and 4chan was made in 03. pc culture was banned on your redditor subs you grew up on so you don't know how to talk hip (without nigger culture to help you (of which the sjw society backs up (ironically))).

Based heads were on coke and they were seen as cool, ergo based = cool. Fags were obnoxious ergo homo means you're being a faggot in some way, obnoxious in some way.

Dumb nigger. Lurk moar and do research.
>>6995058
>expecting me to use jewgle image search or to read moonrunes
Guess I won't play it!

Then again I could look up chun soft....*does it*

>differeing name on wikipedia
>control plus f 64
>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiren_the_Wanderer_2
>same people as POPULAR Terraria game of today of which is in no way retro

I bet I know why the zoomer found this game to play.
vaginaisevil !!xBEjDksE4NW Mon 19 Oct 2020 16:59:25 No.7005545 ViewReport
>>7005123
>hurrr why are the enemies bigger in retro final fantasy games

>>7005187
>>7005194
no duh and thanks for bumping shit threads


7005989
7005838
no @

[Anonymous No.7007842]

>>6995058
Based on what?

[Anonymous No.7009342]

>>7006624
By floor 4 or 5 I mean I don't remember where exactly that happened so don't want to just pull one out of my ass. But to me the same exact map layout where under one weather condition you can easily get every item and encounter no traps versus another where it's the exact same map but more straightforward enemies have been swapped with Field Bandits who turn those items to weeds and where there are also conveniently placed traps near the items speaks volumes to me.

That's why I suspect it's a persistent effect. Going through the effort to get the same maps to generate despite the different weathers and every time having the bad weather seed be worse confirmed it for me. Literally the difference between getting a bunch of useful items as opposed to weeds. That said, I encourage you do you your own testing and see what results you find.

[Anonymous No.7009539]

>>7009342
I don't see how that suggests that it's persistent. Why do you think that the weather won't change for the rest of the run?

[Anonymous No.7009601]

>>7009539
Because I was able to generate the same map layouts consistently floor after floor and just as consistently the spring winds run had more/better items, easier enemies and less traps. I can't see any other conclusion after that.

[Anonymous No.7009738]

>>6995917
For whatever reason the Fushigi no Donjon (Mysterious dungeon) design concept seems to be some sort of exclusive Spike/Chunsoft IP that can be flexibly adapted to include IPs from all sorts of different companies like some sort of freelance vanguards that just won't quit.

All the MD are comfy as fuck so i can hardly complain

[Anonymous No.7009849]

>>7009601
So it doesn't just affect the next map? It affects all maps going forward? Even if, for example, you were to enter a building later on in the run?

[Anonymous No.7010523]

>>7009849
I can't confirm about going in buildings because I was keeping my movements to a minimum to make it easier to keep getting the same maps. It's possible weather changes along the way but in my experience it doesn't. Like I say though, do your own testing if it interests you. Mine made me lose interest but also something about Shiren had always felt a little off compared to other RLs.

>>7009738
They make all the "Mystery Dungeon" games but will work with other companies to make themed versions. Similar to Quest making FF Tactics except now it's mostly what they do.

[Anonymous No.7010551]

>>6995104
Liking Dorf is like wearing a tailored fedora to a formal wedding.

[Anonymous No.7012120]

>>7010551
That doesn't make it not fun though.