/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.6790913]

In my opinion, Twilight Princess is the weakest retro Zelda. That's not to say it's a bad game. It has some redeeming elements, but it just doesn't have the "soul" that LoZ, LttP, OoT, MM, and WW had.

[Anonymous No.6791007]

WW had no soul.

[Anonymous No.6791038]

>>6790913
TP would be considered a great game, if the gameplay wasn't such a shameless copy of OOT. Nintendo played it safe instead of doing something new.

[Anonymous No.6791039]

>>6791007
Its retro so yes it does have soul

[Anonymous No.6791048]

>>6791007
WW was one of the most soulful games of the early 2000s you fucking idiot.

[Anonymous No.6791079]

No, no, you were right, it is very bad.

>areas are more constrained with a far greater number of hallways in overworld
>"teh darkne$$" but not in a tasteful, original way like LttP
>Midna is an artistic and aesthetic failure
>mash buttons or waggle to pass just about anything, no finesse required

[Anonymous No.6791082]

>>6790913
I actually completely lost interest in new Zelda games after playing TP. It was just painfully mediocre especially when you consider how long it takes to finish.

[Anonymous No.6791352]

bump.

[Anonymous No.6791394]

>>6791079
I judge character design by how much I want to fuck them, and i want to fuck Midna so she's good.

[Anonymous No.6791534]

>>6790913
>squander original wolf/imp IP on "Zelda: Version 9"
Why do game developers always do this shit?

[Anonymous No.6791578]

>>6790913
My favorite part of Twilight Princess is Midna. What a great character.

>>6791038
I happen to won the book Art and Artifacts. In it, Yuusuke Nakano (artist for the Zelda series until SS) says NoA had a ton of creative control over the project. He lost the sketch but he mentions his first pitch of a "US-aimed Link" was a bearded, veteran knight in the classic green tunic with some armor on top, but NoA rejected him and told him to basically just do OoT again, which is what the audience of the time demanded. I mean, they were not wrong, but I'm sad we missed out on a bearded, actually adult Link.

[Anonymous No.6791701]

>>6791578
I'm sure they felt pressured to return to formula by supposed fans. Most people liked WW, but all the loudest feedback were people complaining about sailing.

[Anonymous No.6791717]

>>6791701
Nobody liked Wind Waker.

[Anonymous No.6791736]

Not even the weakest 3D Zelda, let alone the weakest Zelda game overall.

[Anonymous No.6791738]

Twilight Princess isn't a retro Zelda

[Anonymous No.6791743]

>>6791701
The sailing was absolute bullshit but I didn’t like anything else about the game either ,TP was better but still not that great.

[Anonymous No.6791793]

>>6791038
>TP would be considered a great game, if the gameplay wasn't such a shameless copy
so then ocarina of time must suck then? according to you it doesn't hold up since it is the same game as before

[Anonymous No.6791803]

>>6791793
Yes, Ocarina of Time is just a shameless ripoff of a far better N64 3D action game.

[Anonymous No.6791921]

>>6790913
> well conceptualized presentation drowned out by "just do what the other guys are doing" brown n' bloom
Why did this have to happen?

[Anonymous No.6791937]

>>6790913
Agreed
>>6791007
Disagree

[Anonymous No.6792150]

>>6791803
I'm actually playing that game right now, and while I won't participate in "goemon is better than zelda" bait" it really is amazing how OoT gets credit for things this game did one year before. It's amazing to me that this game stayed unknown back then, it was probably too "Japanese" for most western kids.

[Anonymous No.6792295]

>>6792150
That's the idea, although Goemon games are on average far better than Zelda, the point is to make a ridiculous assertion (although the influence is obvious) to point people into defensively saying "actually it only did all these things first instead!" and realize that the list of things OoT did first is shrinking.

Because it should. OoT is overrated and history shouldn't be written by journalists.

[Anonymous No.6792784]

>>6791007
>>6791048
>>6791701
>>6791717

>be 2013
>Wii U $100 price drop
>go to GameStop
>ask to buy new Wii U, not the new Wind Waker HD version
>worker suggests I buy the Zelda edition
>"no thanks, just the stock Wii U, please"
>worker keeps insisting I get the Zelda edition
>"thanks, just the standard Wii U please"
>autismo worker KEEPS INSISTING that I get the cool design Zelda Wii U because it comes with WWHD
>"no, that's OK. I'd just like the normal black one, thanks"
>other worker says "just give him a normal Wii U man, he just doesn't like Zelda"
>autismo getting physically assmad
>"why don't you like Zelda? It's a good deal and you should get this edition"
>"nah, I'll pass"
>"I don't know anyone who doesn't like Zelda"
>consider leaving the store at this point
>"WW is so good and you're missing out if you don't get this"
>they get a normal Wii U
>pay
>leave

Nerds BTFO by someone who only likes good Zelda games and not dogshit chibi cartoon trash

[Anonymous No.6792923]

>>6790913
Wind Waker was trash. TP is a top 3 3d Zelda game

[Anonymous No.6792959]

>>6792784
>Things that never happened

[Anonymous No.6793214]

>>6792295
you niggers fail to understand that oot isnt the goat because it was the fastest to a finishline, but because of how well executed it is
the phrase is it holds up exceedingly well, and the reason is because of how contemporary a lot of design choices are
it feels less like a retro game, and more akin to a basic 2020 game with how much influence it had in the industry
tldr genetics, you were adopted, your real daddy is a nigger

[Anonymous No.6793271]

>>6793214
OoT was crude as fuck and genuinely annoying to play, it was very much not well executed, but it was one of the first of its kind so people, like you, give it tons of slack. Going back and playing it now is a chore and a half, 3D Zelda was a mistake, and fuck anyone who disagrees.

[Anonymous No.6793290]

>>6793271
based retard
saying it is crude and annoying are personal spicy takes
going back to playing it now, since I liked it then, is really laid back and streamlined since the game set the standard by which all action adventures are judged nowadays
tldr if darksouls is good oot is goat

[Anonymous No.6793301]

>>6790913
it was bad

[Anonymous No.6793568]

>>6793271
Gr8 b8 m8

[Anonymous No.6793678]

>>6793214
>Great design choices
Name just three that doesn’t involve elusive statements such as “it’s fun” and “levels were cool”

[Anonymous No.6793719]

>>6793678
they decided the way to intuit the camera is to turn it into an entity you interface with
they made combat very visual, arin of gamegrumps says the game makes you wait for everything, but everything is sync and cued by the visual and audio aides
an auto jump is something that is almost exclusively zelda, and takes all the preciseness of platforming out of the exploring
that's three, and I can obviously just keep going since we are discussing a masterpiece

[Anonymous No.6793741]

Twilight Princess suffers from trying too hard to be a cinematic experience. It's understandable that after TP and Skyward Sword that they made BotW, they need to find a middle path.

[Anonymous No.6793793]

>>6793741
They did, it's BotW.

[Anonymous No.6793909]

>>6791738
Yes it is.

[Anonymous No.6793918]

>>6792150
>It's amazing to me that this game stayed unknown back then, it was probably too "Japanese" for most western kids
It really is st4amge but I don't think most kids would care of it being too Japanese, they wpuld still like ninjas and dragons and shit and everything else would just be filtered as weird and funny
Anyways, OoT is a rip off of Starring Goemon and the original Zelda is a rip off of Hydlide

[Anonymous No.6793925]

>>6793918
if it was sucha copy cat then why is it so beloved

[Anonymous No.6793941]

>>6793925
Because it's Nintendo and Hydlide didn't come out in the US until after Zelda

[Anonymous No.6794664]

>>6793793
BOTW was worse because of its insistence on nonlinearity and low scripting, though. The most memorable parts of it were the ones where your experience became a bit more linear and guided, the main story quests for each major area and the divine beasts.

[Anonymous No.6794962]

>>6794664
No, it was better. The scripted stuff was easy to ignore and you could just play the fucking game.

[Anonymous No.6794995]

>>6793925
It's a hydrox/oreo type situation really

[Anonymous No.6795009]

>>6793909
It's not, it came out 14 years ago which wasn't that long ago for a video game. It's like calling The Dark Knight a "retro movie"

[Anonymous No.6795016]

>>6795009
It even got a "remake" that changed nothing about it, because it's so modern there's no reason to.

[Anonymous No.6795029]

>>6795009
good thing thats a false equivalence and with the current pace of technology it actually is a really fucking long time.

[Anonymous No.6795034]

>>6794962
The best parts of the game were the ones where it gave you something to fucking do.

[Anonymous No.6795041]

>>6795034
No, the best parts were exploring and having an adventure.

[Anonymous No.6795057]

>>6795041
The elements of which were weak as fuck in this game

[Anonymous No.6795062]

>>6795057
And yet still stronger than any of the other Aonuma "Zelda" games.

[Anonymous No.6795065]

>>6795041
Oh yes I sure did love coming across my eightieth Bokoblin camp and getting a single shitty weapon as my only notable reward.
No, fuck that.
The shrines, the larger and more involved quests, and the main story are where the game shines. In other words, the linear parts.

[Anonymous No.6795087]

>>6795029
>current pace of technology

[Anonymous No.6795114]

>>6795065
Shrines were boring puzzles shoehorned in badly. The "more involved quests" and story weren't linear, and when they were they were at their worst (shit like the Yiga Hideout). There's a reason people praise Hyrule Castle-- that's the peak of what BotW's template can provide. A future game may just reach that high for a whole game, instead of regressing back to bad games like TP and WW.

[Anonymous No.6795165]

>>6795114
Shrines were the only puzzles that were actually fun to figure out. The more involved quests and story were a fair sight more linear than your average gameplay, and I love them for it. Fighting the Lynel up near the top of Zora’s Domain to grab some electric arrows was top tier. Hyrule Castle was the only time the game effectively used the concepts it was nominally built on and I’m fairly sure it was a fluke.

[Anonymous No.6795172]

>>6795087
dude if you think a video game 14 years apart looks the same as video games now you might be a giant fucking retard. thats like saying PS1 games and NES games are alike.

[Anonymous No.6795193]

>>6795172
To be fair, the difference between an NES game and a PS1 game is bigger than that between a late Gamecube game and an early Switch one.

[Anonymous No.6795207]

>ocarina of time did X first
>goemon did X first
No n64 game, at any period of time, other than Mario 64 ever did ANYTHING first.

Nin spent the whole generation trying to catch up to PC and PS. One of the reasons it took so long for games like Ocarina to come out is texture quality is so fucking abysmal on n64 that they had to realize features like EYES and MOUTHS had to be a whole texture instead of faces, and that the faces should consist of a flatshaded polygon.

tl;dr the n64 is GREAT at accurate texture mapping, but the textures themselves are sub Doom 1 quality.

[Anonymous No.6795227]

>>6791007
Based. Wind Waker was shit back then and its shit now.

[Anonymous No.6795242]

>>6795087
Here's an even more recent one.

[Anonymous No.6795243]

>>6795193
>a late Gamecube game and an early Switch one.
With the way the Switch is porting everything, they're identical.

[Anonymous No.6795250]

>>6795227
It's definitely the worst 3D Zelda by far.

[Anonymous No.6795254]

>>6795227
Even if you don't like it, it's one of the most soulful games of the early 2000s, objectively.

[Anonymous No.6795259]

>>6793925
I wanna add to >>6793941 , Hydlide was very highly regarded in Japan and it's considered a monumental game that's looked on with some nostalgia. By the time it came to the west, it was already greatly outdated so it never got the same response. It was looked at as a poor imitation instead of a predecessor like it actually was.
People constantly confusing Zelda for an RPG series has good reason since it was made with the genre in mind, and I guess Zelda II was Nintendo's much more serious dive into it.

[Anonymous No.6795260]

>>6795254
It's literally OoT but watered down. Soulless.

[Anonymous No.6795265]

>>6795260
You don't know what soul is. Here's a good definition.
https://vocaroo.com/76tIEbKRLoo
Wind Waker falls under this definition to a T.

[Anonymous No.6795286]

>>6795259
I've also read the NES game is a bad port, but I've not actually played the actual original version of Hydlide to see how different it is from the NES version.
I'm more of an Ys person anyway

[Anonymous No.6795302]

>>6795265
Based. Wind Waker is soulful as fuck. The soulless cannot recognize soul.

[Anonymous No.6795321]

Where are the mods?

[Anonymous No.6795325]

>>6795302
Stop replying to yourself, zoomer.

[Anonymous No.6795335]

>>6795321
Thread isn’t getting pruned. Every game being discussed here is retro.

[Anonymous No.6795363]

>>6795325
Fuck you.

[Anonymous No.6795375]

>>6795259
This has happened more times than the average gamer realizes, the whole distinction between WRPG/JRPG and Computer/Console RPG is a western misinterpretation of history.

First there was Ultima. Ultima cemented the top-down perspective for role-playing and adventure games, as well as the open world map. Ultima also featured the first 3d first person wireframe dungeon, Wizardry just expanded on it.

Then there was Hydlide. Hydlide is the first "action-RPG".

Zelda was a deliberate attempt to blend the gameplay of Hydlide with the scope/map/open-ended nature of Ultima. Hydlide IS GOOD, but Zelda is so much better of a game that there was no going back, which is why Hydlide is despised in the west.

This also happened with first person RPGs and first person shooters.

The first first person dungeon crawler with actual graphics to be released wasn't Dungeon Master or Wizardry (which was wireframe until the 5th game), it was Megami Tensei for Famicom.

The first first person shooter isn't anything by id software or bungie, it's some PC-88 game. The first one that was notable was Star Cruiser from 1988.

Video Game "history" is bullshit for the most part.

[Anonymous No.6795389]

>>6795172
if you think games have changed anywhere near as much between 2005 and 2020 as they had between 1990 and 2005 then there's no hope for you

[Anonymous No.6795394]

>>6795286
>I've also read the NES game is a bad port
I mainly saw Japanese people yapping about the MSX version which obviously we would never get, so I'd believe it.
Goemon also had some MSX games I think, maybe if Goemon got some more recognition here that franchise wouldn't be dead and just used to be whored out for pachinko machines

[Anonymous No.6795405]

>>6795389
>HURR DURR WE ONLY CHANGED FROM 360P BAD 3D TO 4K REALISTIC GRAPHICS ITS NOT THAT BIG OF A CHANGE DUDE

[Anonymous No.6795409]

>>6795325
>WAAAAA! I'M A SOULLESS HUSK WHO CAN'T FEEL EMOTIONS!!!! I CALL PEOPLE ZOOMERS TO MAKE UP FOR MY SMALL PENIS SIZE!

[Anonymous No.6795432]

>>6795405
bros...he's right... fucking night and day difference... truly amazing how far we've progressed... video games are basically real life now

[Anonymous No.6795441]

>>6795432
good thing thats a 7th gen release you fucking idiot. case in point, you actually are a big retard.

[Anonymous No.6795446]

>>6795441
it's a 2005 screenshot

[Anonymous No.6795463]

>>6795446
from a prerendered trailer. congratulations, you played yourself.

[Anonymous No.6795464]

How long until this thread is full of movie games and wall of text games like this?

[Anonymous No.6795474]

>>6795463
Huh? The TGS 2005 trailer wasn't prerendered

[Anonymous No.6795489]

>>6795432
I can do that too you fucking disingenuous prick WOW IT LOOKS JUST LIKE MODERN GAMES............. I SEE YOUR POINT NOW.......

[Anonymous No.6795493]

>>6795489
It really does. PS3 game, right?

[Anonymous No.6795503]

>>6795493
You genuinely can’t tell the difference between that and PS3?
You are blind.

[Anonymous No.6795505]

>>6795375
>the whole distinction between WRPG/JRPG and Computer/Console RPG is a western misinterpretation of history.
WRPG vs JRPG is also a very recent distinction that was rarely used before the last 20 years, I have no idea where it came from and it has very little used outside of people being stubborn and familiar with it.
>Hydlide is the first "action-RPG".
I'm pretty sure it was Dragon Slayer? There were also actual platformer RPGs that even made it to the west no?
>The first first person dungeon crawler with actual graphics to be released wasn't Dungeon Master or Wizardry (which was wireframe until the 5th game), it was Megami Tensei for Famicom.
I don't think I can agree with this. I do not think wireframe vs actual graphics is a necessary distinction for first-person dungeon crawlers, because Megami Tensei still has a lot of Wizardry's DNA, but even if it was an important distinction, the 1986 Macintosh port for Wizardry 1 also doesn't use wireframe graphics, and it was released before MegaTen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ob5d0GF9Hvk
and I'm sure that there are several examples of Japan-made first-person dungeon crawlers that don't use wireframe graphics

[Anonymous No.6795520]

>>6795389
I want to punish you for this post anon, and god knows you deserve it, but instead I'm going to educate you.

Video games don't innovate at the same speed all the time, there are bursts of innovation, and periods of following the leader. Gameplay is largely independent of hardware, you could have made text-based skyrim in 1992, so let's only discuss graphics.

All the innovation, and I mean 100% of the innovation in 2D graphics technology for gaming was done by 1990, maybe some of 1991, but it was really there by 1990. Everything you would see a home console or PC do with sprites until 1996 or so had already been accomplished on high-end niche gaming pcs in Japan and Europe or arcade cabinets. So from 1989 or so, graphics weren't changing, hardware was just catching up.

So by 1991 we have full-motion video, transparency, rotation, scaling on x and y axis, and all the other features you'd see in ads for hardware until 3d became relevant.

What about 3D? The industry realized it needed to go 3d around 1994, and got there by 1996, almost entirely on the backs of id software and Nintendo. Once they figured out how to do it, everyone copied. Other companies figured out other things, Bethesda figured out streaming terrain, Shiny figured out draw distance, Insomniac figured out Level of Detail, but it all happened between 94 97.

So basically, for most of 1990-2005 nothing changed at all. You are better off thinking in terms of eras.

We had a 2d era with 3 sub eras: Metaphorical Characters, Believable/Cartoony Characters, Realistic Characters.

We had a 3d era with 3 sub eras: Metaphorical (PS1/N64), Believable (late PS2/EarlyPS3), Realistic (late PS3/PS4).

When you get to the realistic era you hit a wall and start looking for the next big thing, hence full motion video and Virtual Reality.

[Anonymous No.6795527]

>>6795503
thats why hes comparing a trailer to video games, he's just reaching for points

[Anonymous No.6795528]

>>6795489
wow you're so right... i can't remember the last time i saw graphics that shitty in a modern game...

[Anonymous No.6795530]

>>6795520
"Believable" and "Realistic" are the same damn era, just a bunch of badly mocapped 3D models trying to be big hollywood movies instead of video games.

[Anonymous No.6795548]

>>6791039
Soulful gaming was one of the casualties of 9/11, along with America's dignity as a country, and pretty much any other entertainment medium you can name (music died in 96-97 when nu-metal, Nickelback, and boy bands replaced grunge).

[Anonymous No.6795549]

>>6795530
No they’re not, that’s just your “NOOOO CHANGE BAD, MUH SEKRIT KLUB” bias showing. The idea that there’s no difference between 2000 and 2020 games is essentially the final form of the argument that kept the Gamecube out of /vr/. You don’t actually find those eras to look the same, you just think you have to or you lose your “cred”.

[Anonymous No.6795560]

>>6795505
I guess I'm arguing about the first influential examples, not necessarily the very first, which is why I said what I did about Star Cruiser, it's not the first, but it's the first decent one.
>Dragon Slayer
Yes. I believe it came out a month before Hydlide. I'm less familiar with it.
>>6795505
>wireframe vs actual graphics is not a distinction
I respectfully disagree as a major fan of the genre. The first dungeon crawlers that are IMMERSIVE like the later Wizardry games are Dungeon Master 1 and Megami Tensei, and that comes down to graphics and music being so much better than early Ultima/Wizardry's wireframes and blips and bloops. I'll admit bias though, I love megaten and wish it got the same recognition over here it gets in Japan (where the Namco games are regarded as landmark).

[Anonymous No.6795568]

>>6795549
6th gen is when every single facet of modern gaming made its start.
>twinstick controls
>the modern console shooter basically starting with Halo CE
>paid online
>DLC
>focus on cinematics over gameplay with games like Ico and SotC
>GTA III introduces us to the modern GTA game

[Anonymous No.6795580]

>>6795549
>MUH SEKRIT KLUB

Ah yes, say it with me: open borders for /vr/!

[Anonymous No.6795581]

>>6795549
Agree with this.
2005 gaming was fucking 480i outside of PC.
Consoles will release this year that output 8k.

In 1985, square 240p on console. (famicom)
In 1989, 4:3 240p on console. (genesis)
In 1991, square 240p on console. (super famicom)
In 1995, 4:3 240p on console. (PS1)

[Anonymous No.6795584]

>>6795568
And yet the implementation of all those things is gradual, and it’s all so new and not yet standard, that the implementations vary wildly. The general quality and standard gameplay styles and tropes of the time also distinguish it.

[Anonymous No.6795590]

>>6795520
Fuck off back to cuckit.

[Anonymous No.6795592]

>>6795568
it also has a lot of failed gameplay mechanics and there were two other consoles that didnt have dlc or paid online. there were also tons of games that dont have anything that you're clinging onto. shut the fuck up already.

[Anonymous No.6795593]

>>6795584
>not yet standard
what fucking crack are you smoking?

[Anonymous No.6795596]

>>6795568
Dont even bother with that redditor, anon. He's hopeless.

[Anonymous No.6795606]

>>6795568
16-bit gaming is when every single facet of modern gaming made its start.
>shoulder button controls
>the modern console sports game basically starting with Madden for Genesis
>60-80 dollar cartridges for RPGS
>Strategy Guides
>focus on dialogue and art in RPGs over grinding, statistics, and puzzle solving
>Sonic The Hedgehog introduces us to the "modern" "platformer" game, the game plays itself, you just hold right and look at the pretty graphics!

[Anonymous No.6795613]

>>6795581
See, 6th gen can't even be considered retro on that criteria because besides the PS2, they all output 480p, which is a marked upgrade over the 5th gen. Like, you can play your DC, GC or Xbox on an HDTV and it would still look good. Can't say that about any retro console.

[Anonymous No.6795614]

>>6795568
>mario on NES introduced us to the modern mario game
>there are indie games today that stylize themselves as snes games
>fire emblem essentially plays the same
>5th gen had online capabilities
it looks like every other generation is modern too

[Anonymous No.6795618]

>>6795593
2/3 consoles didn’t have fucking DLC you retard.

[Anonymous No.6795623]

>>6795613
> retro means you have to be less than 480p
When every modern console except whatever Nintendo puts out next is expected to be 4K I’m gonna have to call horseshit on that. 480p is NOTHING nowadays.

[Anonymous No.6795625]

>>6795560
>I respectfully disagree as a major fan of the genre
Well I will agree to disagree, but I respect that you might have more knowledge on the genre than I do and I too enjoy MegaTen, but think it's huge Wizardry influence is overlooked, like the alignment system, and I always wonder if Atlus came up with the demon negotiation system after hearing rumors about Wizardry IV and using the monsters from the previous games.
Ultima and Wizardry's influence everywhere but especially Japan is overlooked, but I feel like MegaTen is the one huge series that decided to go full into the latter

[Anonymous No.6795627]

>>6795618
Oh you're going to cherry pick you cunt?

[Anonymous No.6795628]

>>6795613
ah yes let me output 480p on my fucking 4k TV

[Anonymous No.6795632]

>>6795627
you're the one cherry picking you stupid faggot you serious?

[Anonymous No.6795635]

>>6795613
You had me till "still looks good on HDTV". I'm okay with 6th gen on this board exactly for that reason, 6th gen games REQUIRE a CRT to look right, especially PS2 games and especially ones featuring dithering.

Sonic Adventure will never look as good an anything other than a real dreamcast hooked up to a CRT, and I've seen this first hand.

[Anonymous No.6795637]

>>6795627
> go by the majority
>>> cherry-picking
Nigger what? 2/3 consoles had neither DLC nor paid online. A few cinematic games doesn’t override the existence of Nintendo and the general middle of the road-ness of Microsoft at the time.

[Anonymous No.6795661]

>>6795375
>The first first person dungeon crawler with actual graphics to be released wasn't Dungeon Master or Wizardry (which was wireframe until the 5th game), it was Megami Tensei for Famicom


Um, Akalabeth?

[Anonymous No.6795670]

>>6795625
So, as a fan, and as someone who has played and beat Ultima 1-3, Megaten 1,2,SMT1,SMT2, Wizardry 1, Wizardry 5 and Wizardry 6, I can tell you a few things.

Ultima 1 and 2 are great fun little games and are super influential, but don't have well fleshed out gameplay in terms of actual stats, improving your stats and combat. Combat is real time, whoever is tougher wins, you get tougher by spending money at a store. Wizardry's dungeon crawling/graphical systems are no improvement over this, in fact the graphics are worse, but the combat actually requires thought, and there's an actual reason to do the dungeons, they're borderline optional in early Ultima.

The line between those kinds of dungeons, which are fun, but essentially a computer puzzle, and the highly immersive dungeons that feel like real places in Wizardry 5 and onward is a big line. Wizardry only improved because Dungeon Master/Megaten made them.

And you were wondering how Atlus came up with demon negotiation? Very simply, they had to. Namco tasked them with making a game larger than any Wizardry game, with a full graphical dungeon. Megami Tensei features a massive 4 building complex that is highly interconnected ala symphony of the night or dark souls. The quality of level design here wouldn't be achieved by any game outside of this genre until Doom. So how the hell do you make a password system work for a game like that? You only track RPG statistics on the main character. Everything else is a "demon" that can't level up, and all its stats are in a table. There's one save point in the whole game.

tl;dr MegaTen has demon recruitment so your party doesn't have to level up, so the password can be shorter.

[Anonymous No.6795707]

>>6795193
>the difference between an NES game and a PS1 game is bigger
is it really though?
>my 2d to 3d
but what about all the physics, all the decals and textures, the file sizes, architecture,
maybe the jump is approximately the same when you dig into it, what is the objective leaps and bounds that are incomparable anyway

[Anonymous No.6795721]

>>6795375
>Video Game "history" is bullshit for the most part.
in what ways

[Anonymous No.6795725]

>>6795375
Whoa. Do you have a source for that last part about Id? I am kind of a big fan of their early stuff, that would be pretty surprising to me to learn they weren't as innovative as I've read.

[Anonymous No.6795734]

>>6795725
what does innovative mean, a brand new technology? or can it be an older idea with a twist?

[Anonymous No.6795735]

>>6795707
>the difference between an NES game and a PS1 game

This is what people aren't getting, gameplay has nothing to do with hardware, good hardware didn't force DLC into games.

Here is Resident Evil:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moW4wLlZnHk

Here is Resident Evil... for Gameboy Color:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRCd2VVmLXw

All better hardware does is allow you to more competently achieve a wider variety of fun gameplay.

You can make Resident Evil for NES, but as indicated by the GBC port, it'd be fucking terrible.

[Anonymous No.6795743]

Why did the mods submit to spammers?

[Anonymous No.6795747]

>>6795735
>gameplay has nothing to do with hardware.........All better hardware does is allow you to more competently achieve a wider variety of fun gameplay...........but as indicated by the GBC port, it'd be fucking terrible.
wait what, so gameplay has no correlation to hardware specs or what are you saying

>good hardware didn't force DLC
nah, but dreamcast had us covered with a little freebie here and there haha
fuck niggers and fuck jannies

[Anonymous No.6795751]

>>6795009
I doubt you were saying the same thing about 2000 back in 2014

[Anonymous No.6795757]

>>6795734
Well, from what I thought I understood, Id made the first FPS. So by innovation in this case, I mean they made the first FPS. Also your picrel isn't related to my post.

[Anonymous No.6795761]

>>6795725
>>6795734
The source is my eyes and research. Here's id's first attempt at what would become the Wolfenstein engine, in 1991.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKYFNWxRY4s

Here's Star Cruiser from 1988, for the NEC PC-88:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLCSEEj3jCk

id's biggest innovation was ditching the polygons and carmack coming up with a faster drawing algorithm.

I want to clarify, id singlehandedly came up with the fast paced shooter gameplay we now think of as FPS by accident, but the graphical techniques were largely copied from PC-88 games.

[Anonymous No.6795767]

>>6795757
you don't like my fucking picture dude?! what the fuck, why go there

and no, you are wrong, and I feel like that much is obvious, the first, the very first time someone made a first person shooter?

what if I am wrong though, still fuck you and fuck jannies

[Anonymous No.6795783]

>>6795757
>>6795734
this is what I mean though. No one person invented FPS, it grew out of a weird combination of first person dungeon crawlers and space flight sim games. The reason you don't relate space flight sims to FPS games, is because most people have been told FPS games came out of nowhere with Wolfenstein 3d. As opposed to accidentally becoming a genre via games like Star Cruiser and Catacombs 3D. That's all revisionist history though, no one thought this was even a distinct genre until doom, and at first the genre was called "doom clone". If you played Wolfenstein or Catacombs pre-doom, you would have probably called it a "first person shoot 'em up" with the term first person literally only being there to designate you weren't playing Galaga/Defender.

We're ALMOST getting to a better understanding of these things now that information is easier to get. Back in the 90s a lot of people swore Doom was ripped off of a shitty bungee game called Pathways Into Darkness that was Post-Wolfenstein.

[Anonymous No.6795790]

>>6795783
>at first the genre was called "doom clone"

[Anonymous No.6795795]

>>6795734
>>6795757
I'm neither of you, but I'd like to comment on that picture.

SNES and Genesis are defined by their limitations, namely the sound chip being a sampler on SNES, SNES being sub-240p horizontally, low CPU speed on SNES, and an inability to refresh all pixels in one frame on the Genesis.

SNES can't run a game like Sonic at all, but Genesis can't switch between 2 pictures in a single frame.

That's the actual biggest difference between 5th and 6th gen, consoles post 6th gen are way more similar than old consoles were.

[Anonymous No.6795814]

>>6795761
>>6795783
>>6795795
Super interesting stuff, thank you anon. I'll admit I haven't done any serious research besides wikipedia-scalping (inb4 >t.zoomer, yes I am a lazy 2000s kid). Sorry that I don't really have anything interesting to give back in return.

[Anonymous No.6795838]

>>6795814
You're good. I noticed a long time ago this board was mostly zoomers, right after it was made actually. As an old dude who is pretty good at getting through his backlog and has played a lot of really really old shit that people don't remember, I try to stop by from time to time and right misconceptions. It's my form of gamer community service.

[Anonymous No.6795889]

>>6795838
Thanks friend.

[Anonymous No.6796402]

>>6792784
didnt happen nerd kys

[Swift S. Lawliet !!VIQsbxF6xwO No.6797025]

Zelda II: The Adventure of Link is actually the weakest retro Zelda.
At least the Four Swords games were fun in multiplayer.

[Anonymous No.6797105]

>>6791394
No one asked dumbass coomer

[Anonymous No.6797475]

>>6795520
Legitimately one of the worst posts I’ve read here.

[Anonymous No.6797497]

>>6793719
>they decided the way to intuit the camera is to turn it into an entity you interface with
Super Mario 64 does this with the Lakitu holding the camera.

>they made combat very visual, arin of gamegrumps says the game makes you wait for everything, but everything is sync and cued by the visual and audio aides
How is this any different from pic related in Mega Man 3 (as an example)? The red dot lights up just before it throws the ball.

>an auto jump is something that is almost exclusively zelda, and takes all the preciseness of platforming out of the exploring
I will give you this one. Cannot think of another game that had auto jump before this point.

>that's three, and I can obviously just keep going since we are discussing a masterpiece
Let's keep going!

[Anonymous No.6798717]

>>6793719
Arin is NOT a good arguement, it's been proven time and time again he has a strong problem of spacial awareness and retention, he still thinks it's like the NES where if he outruns the enemy and he's offscrreen the enemy is no longer there. and then complains when he gets struck from behind. Even a dog has spacial awareness and retention

[Anonymous No.6798757]

>>6793719
>they decided the way to intuit the camera is to turn it into an entity you interface with
Sega did this first in 1995 with Virtual On, spawned imitators like Tomb Raider in 1996. Mega Man Legends also did this in 1997.
>they made combat very visual
This is meaningless, all games with actual combat systems are about reading attacks and watching your own play out, this dates back to the 80s not fucking Ocarina of Time
>an auto jump
How innovative
>exclusively zelda
So glad they could influence other Zelda games

How is it that Zeldababby's continue to have the absolute mindfuckingly stupidest and most contrived, close-minded views on fucking everything in the games industry?

[Anonymous No.6798891]

>>6793719
>they decided the way to intuit the camera is to turn it into an entity you interface with
>they made combat very visual, arin of gamegrumps says-
nope

[Anonymous No.6798981]

>>6795520
What a shitty ass post. None of this is a decent reflection of what happened at all.

[Anonymous No.6799824]

>>6791038
TP had the gameplay of OOT, but actually good this time, with puzzles harder than "shoot the glowy thing".

[Anonymous No.6799850]

>>6791738
Gookmoot changed the definition of retro to complement the systematic destruction of indigenous /vr/

[Anonymous No.6800012]

>>6790913
It's genuinly my favorite. I'm an artfag before a vidyafag and I absolutely love the art direction in TP, especially the Twili aspects. It has some of my favorite designs for characters and enemies of any Zelda. As far as gameplay goes it's the only one that has Link actually develop and learn new moves, even if it isn't implemented as well as it could have been, it still stands out because of this making combat more engaging for me. I also like that Link is like fucking Randy Savage in this game taking shit from no one, body slamming goats and Gorons like he needs the gold to live. Sure it's not a ground breaking title but for me it's the best, and no Zelda since has come close to it in my opinion.

[Anonymous No.6800280]

This is the hardest zelda puzzle. None of the early games (1 - Alttp) had anything as remotely challenging as this shit.

[Anonymous No.6800601]

>>6800280
>two ongoing block puzzles is the hardest in the franchise

[Anonymous No.6800618]

>>6800012
What makes TP's art direction much different from Majora's Mask?
>>6800601
The hardest parts of Zelda games isn't the puzzles for me, it's getting lost. Especially in Zelda 2.
>Warcraft
Wow a true intellect

[Anonymous No.6800636]

>>6800618
>What makes TP's art direction much different from Majora's Mask?
Not sure I understand the question. What's the relevance of Majora's Mask to my post? Majora has a good art direction as well?

[Anonymous No.6800639]

>>6800618
it is pretty hard to get lost in zelda, I think I'd have to be really drunk or something

[Anonymous No.6800673]

>>6800636
They're both dark and eerie. They pretty damn similar. TP just has Tolkein vibes.
>>6800639
Oh nice, that's cool

[Anonymous No.6800712]

>Tolkein

[Anonymous No.6800720]

>>6800673
A person may enjoy Friday The 13th but not like Halloween. They're similar but only in tone. TP just does something with its art direction that I like more.

[Anonymous No.6800743]

>>6800720
it has more horsepower in the hardware to pump the graphics pipeline

[Anonymous No.6800793]

>>6800743
That's not it as I prefer it art wise, not graphics wise. It could have N64 graphics and I'd still love it more than Majora as TP has a surreal edge that Majora doesn't.

[Anonymous No.6800821]

Skyward Sword is just TP but Windwaker

[Anonymous No.6800852]

>>6800793
art is graphics is art
something something

[Anonymous No.6800863]

>>6800852
Anon. None of your posts have made sense and now you're just babbling. Why do you have an issue with my enjoyment of TP's art direction? why do you think I need to enjoy Majora's more? this whole exchange has been very confusing.

[Anonymous No.6800880]

>>6800863
you presumed me to be one person really, not your fault, just have bad tastes and poor comprehension is all

[Anonymous No.6800907]

>>6797497
>Super Mario 64 does this with the Lakitu holding the camera.
base

[Anonymous No.6800915]

>>6797497
>I will give you this one. Cannot think of another game that had auto jump before this point.
....so like the first game to do something is your criteria for design choices?

[Anonymous No.6800916]

>>6800880
Ah, so you just involved yourself because you don't like that I prefer TP to MM and shitposted in response. Typical MMfag really.

[Anonymous No.6800923]

>>6798757
>t. doesn't understand innovation at all 4channeler

[Anonymous No.6800927]

>>6790913
TP is great and OP is a massive faggot for using "soul" to describe a game.

[Anonymous No.6800932]

>>6798891>>6798717
pretty hilarious that I am calling the game masterful and I use a guy who dislikes it and that is a point where you guys have to unknot your panties

[Anonymous No.6800936]

>>6800923
>Innovation is doing the same thing years after everyone else but paying journos to say you did it first
>Defending Apple