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/vr/ - Retro Games

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6762772 No.6762772 [Reply] [Original]

Childhood is liking DOOM
Adulthood is realizing that System Shock and Ultima Underworld should have become the first person action game standard in the industry.

>> No.6762805

>>6762772
SS1 is great, but Underworld's runic magic system, sub-PS1 texture stability, GBA resolution, and even stupider controls make it a game I can only conceptually appreciate. I'm 36 and this UUW is just too grossly obtuse and archaic for me to enjoy. Needs a decent port to iron that shit out.

>> No.6763224

>>6762772
>system shock
>ultima underworld
>action games

>> No.6763258

>>6762772
>have a look at uuw
>oh this looks ok, a bit more advanced than doom in that it's clearly proper 3d with 3-point perspective
>when did this come out...
1992? fucking 1992? why have i never heard of this before? we had a proper 3D fps on pc before even doom?

>> No.6763303

>>6763258
>does it have guns?
>no?
>does it have potion chugging stat-based D&D virgin centric game mechanics?
>well fuck this gay shit lol!

Was probably the internal conversation going on with a lot of people.

>> No.6763726

>>6763258
ultima underworld is a lot slower, performance wise and gameplay wise. it's clunky.

also doom has 3-point perspective.
it's perspective calculations are perfectly fine, it just restricts you from lookup up or down to reduce math a little, and allow cheap perspective-correct texturing.

imagine you had a really tall tower in a doom wad, maybe you couldn't look up to see it, but if your viewport was extremely tall, like if you had a vertical rotated monitor and could see the top, the vertical perspective would be correct.

>> No.6763743

>>6762772
>Action games
you what?

>> No.6763760

>>6763258
and before Wolf3D, I heard that an early demo of UW inspired Carmack to make a 3D engine with texture mapping

>> No.6763775

>>6762772
Based. Any more hidden gems that would make me feel like I'm so adult now?

>> No.6763781

just play the remaster loool

>> No.6763801
File: 9 KB, 320x200, Catacomb_3-D_The_Descent_title_screen.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6763801

>>6763760
From what i recall, that was what got him to make Catacomb 3-D from the gauntlet copy it used to be

>> No.6763820

>>6763781
I probably will, but it's not out yet

>> No.6763831

>>6762772
It did tho, almost no games today have the simple doom formula(maybe some nostalgia pandering shit like DUSK), even Doom Eternal gave in to this and has rpg elements. Combinations of RPG and FPS are standard in the industry today, so I dont know what your problem is.

>> No.6763921

>>6762772
Those games are a lot slower and not nearly as exciting.
System Shock isn't bad, but if you want a fast action game, it leaves a lot to be desired, and Ultima Underworld plain isn't fast in any sense.

>>6763258
See >>6762805
It was advanced for its time, and had some things going for it, but it's on a very slow boil, and it's the opposite of hectic. Performance was also not very good, it badly needed a good optimization scheme like Doom's binary space partitioning.

>>6763760
>>6763801
The way I recall it vaguely was that John Romero was talking on the phone with a guy he knew from when he worked briefly at Origin, who was bragging about Ultima Underworld and how advanced it was, then afterwards he turned to Carmack and said "These guys are doing a textured mapped 3D game." to which Carmack replied "We can do that."

>> No.6764245
File: 64 KB, 690x478, 8877.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6764245

>>6762772
Lads..

>> No.6764271

Jannies, do your FUCKING JOB and start deleting alf threads.

>> No.6764308

>>6764271
>everyone who dislikes DOOM is the same fucking person.
Anon please.

>> No.6764356

>>6764308
Not everyone who hates Half-Life is Alf, but it's been demonstrated that Alf will spend all his waking time spamming about Half-Life on /v/ and /vr/, we know who he is, and he has buttbudies who are in the spamming.

>> No.6764426

what order should I play the System Shock games for the first time? Snagged up both on GOG, the "enhanced" version of the first. Should I start with the first?

>> No.6764432

>>6764426
Yeah do the first game enhanced. You're just gonna have to rebind the controls. There's a steam guide that has good binds for it. Once you do you're good to go. Takes a bit to get used to still but once you do it's a blast.

>> No.6764449

>>6764432
>There's a steam guide that has good binds for it
Cool I'll start with 1 then. Is this the guide?
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2036191270

>> No.6764498

Ultima Underworld engine was more advanced than Doom, but the guy who wrote it never made a cult of personality around himself like Carmack did.

>> No.6764523

>>6764356
Alf Changed his shit
Now he and the Q1 fags and his buttbuddies are trying to throw the Doom community against Origin Games.

he's spamming this shit here and on /v/ of late to stir flamewar

>> No.6764556

>>6764498
>Ultima Underworld engine was more advanced than Doom
Interesting. In Masters of Doom it is made out that Carmack was doing the most advanced shit ever. Where can I get a detailed discussion on this?

>> No.6764590

>>6764556
iirc he's probably one of the first people to find a practical use for bsp trees

>> No.6764659

>>6764449
Yeah that's the one.
Believe me anon at first you'll feel like a 3 legged goat but after you get used to it you become vid-related:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suoWyVKeTmQ

>> No.6764665

Both system shock and Ultima underworld are interesting experiments but ultimately flawed experiences

>> No.6764759

>>6764556
it depends on your criteria.
carmack liked to keep his engines simple, so they are very good at doing one thing, usually pretty fast.


system shock and ultima underworld supported more complex geometry, and used a sort of tiled based system, where the world is divided up into a grid, and used this to reduce the work in sorting the world.

however, it drew back to front, and had plenty of overdraw, even just between the world geometry. in this sense, it was less advanced than doom's bsp-based, front-to-back, zero overdraw approach (doom had overdraw in some cases, but only with enemies and partially-transparent walls)

doom restricted viewing angles and geometry a bit to allow the engine to run about as fast as possible on hardware at the time.

>> No.6766204

>>6762772
>fast paced action
vs
>slow dungeon/space station crawl

the game was rigged from the start.
Adulthood is facing the facts. You are just stuck in infantilism and your fantasies

>> No.6766206

>>6764759
>system shock and ultima underworld supported more complex geometry
only due to it being set on a rigid tile grid. Mapping unit of SysShock is a cube with one of the 32 or so strict configurations. If you want complex geometry there you'd also have to increase the scale a lot - both vertical and horizontal.

Doom engine is much more versatile in that regard.

>> No.6766215

>>6762805
This. I really wanted to get into UU, but it's just too much of a hurdle. SS1 is GOAT though.

>>6763224
SS1 basically turns into Doom once you get engineering and have mouselook enabled.

>>6763258
Doom was shareware wasn't it? That's a pretty good way to spread like wildfire.

>> No.6766219

>>6764556
The more I learn about Carmack the more I start to feel he's overrated. He's definitely one of the top game programmers, but he gets a lot of credit for shit he borrowed from other people. It still is impressive he was able to go toe-to-toe with Looking Glass, considering the entire company was made up of MIT nerds.

>> No.6766438

>>6766206
Yeah, I'm aware. But they support things like slopes, which doom couldn't do.

>>6766219
If you look at his entire game catalogue it's pretty impressive, but he definitely took inspiration from people, and got help directly from other (e.g Michael abrash for quake)

What I'd say Carmack has that puts him near the top is insane work ethic.

>> No.6766490

>>6766219
Carmack wasn't an innovator, that's not what is remarkable about his work. All of the techniques and algorithms he used were taken from somewhere else, but he actually put them in functional and sellable products. This sort of stuff was only seen in the demoscene before, and all the general industry were waiting on more hardware to solve the issues of scrolling, 3D, real time networking, etc.

>> No.6766953

>>6762772
People were too braindead to appreciate anything that wasn't RIP AND TEAR like some mindless ape.

>> No.6766967

>>6766953
>mindless walking
>smart

>> No.6766978

>>6766953
Ultima Underworld being slow, tedious, and clunky, doesn't make it a complex or thought provoking game.

>> No.6767004

>>6766219
The overrated feeling you have about Carmack might be partly due to how it makes no sense how people put him as an icon of arena shooters.

Carmack was a programmer, he didn't even like gaming much. To Carmack Counterstrike would be just as good as Quake. It would be like thinking of the CGI guy when you think of a movie instead of the director - senseless. If you want to put someone as your icon they should put John Romero there. Romero was the guy who designed and gave it life.

>> No.6767037

>>6767004
I think that's why they struck gold with Doom. Carmack and Romero sitting right next to each other all day and night working together obsessively gave them incredible programming and design synergy. After Doom, they didn't work closely with each other anymore and Carmack's work became technically iterative rather than innovative from a design standpoint.

The book puts the blame on Romero, that after the success of Doom, he lost his work ethic and Carmack was left developing by himself without Romero at his side. Not sure how true it is, but it sounds true and to my knowledge Romero has never denied it.

>> No.6767442

Yeah Doom ruined gaming and brought retards like>>6766978
>>6766967

>> No.6767559

>>6767037
romero designed his magnum opus, and it was too good for him to not play it all day

he liked games too much for doom to not have ruined him

>> No.6767915

>>6767442
UU was always mediocre.

>> No.6767979

>>6762772
>t. someone who never played SS or UU and is just parroting memes about them being turboadvanced in every way

>> No.6767980

>>6767915
Doom was never good.

>> No.6767993

>>6767004
How's that Blackroom project going, mr. Romero?

>> No.6768008

>>6767979
SS is fun as fuck dunno what you're on about.

>> No.6768014

>>6762772
SomeWhy didn’t actually grow up in the 90s

>> No.6768950

>>6762772
Is there even a reason to use the targeting module? Seems like a relic of keyboard only days like the one that lets you look behind you.

>> No.6773262

>>6766204
Yeah I'm infantile because I'm not an ADHD-ridden millenial gotcha.

>> No.6774893

Reading some of the comments I can nothing but ask myself: what are you doing here posting in a retro board?

>> No.6774963

>>6774893
B-but it's slow, tedious, and clunky that means it's bad!

>> No.6775502

>>6774893
fishing for retro points

>> No.6776259

>>6768950
>Is there even a reason to use the targeting module?
It shows you stats like enemy hp iirc.