Hard but rewarding retro games

[Anonymous No.6740940]

Can we get a thread about hard retro games? I don't just mean ones that are hard because of design flaws or a lack of general quality control, but games that are hard by design and rewarding to play.

What are your favorites? FPS? Bullet hell? Ever beaten Blood on Extra Crispy (especially in a modern source port with proper damage scaling)? How far have you gotten in the originmal Megami Tensei series?

Mods, WADs, and ROM hacks welcome also -Mario 64 hacks and levels like Stardate 20X6 are some of the hardest I've ever played.

TES Arena seemed hard for the first 45 minutes, but after getting a few spells, stealing items from the MG, and learning the spell points glitch (not that I need it with the 800 potions I'm carrying around), it's one of the easiest I've ever played.

[Anonymous No.6741117]

>>6740940
>Can we get a thread about hard retro games?
isn't that all vanity?
games become less fun when your chasing a secondary goal. because that hardness comes from your trying to show off and prove something, like speedrunning or winning without dying, that means you don't really like the game for itself cause you need secondary things to chase that do'nt really matter but are just vanity to show off on a board
most fun i have is with regular games cause i enjoy them for what they are , pic related and its hard enough if you want

[Anonymous No.6741126]

>>6741117
>pic related
(secret of mana series if you don't know)

[Anonymous No.6741138]

>tfw I will probably never be able to 2all DDP
I just don't have the time to put in credits anymore

[Anonymous No.6741164]

>>6741117
Not everyone challenges themselves to prove themselves to others. Quit living your life for other people and maybe you will achieve enjoyment it things.
>>6740940
Right now my current gaming goal is to get Kaiden in Beatmania IIDX (originally released in 1999 and still going today). Will take probably a couple more years as I only play for 12 hours or less a week on average. Other than that I've been thinking about trying out the PS1 versions of the Wizardry games, but am too worried that they may be too hard for me as my only dungeon crawling experience is Nocturne and Legend of Grimrock.

[Anonymous No.6741169]

>>6741138
How far have you gotten on a single credit? For me 2-1 through 2-4 are pretty easy, but the difficulty ramps the fuck up on 2-5 onward. Don't know if I want to commit to a 2-ALL anytime soon.

[Anonymous No.6741204]

>>6741164
>Not everyone challenges themselves to prove themselves to others.
that's what they say until they get into leaderboard wars and showing off their replays and arguing about who's the best and who might be cheating

> Quit living your life for other people and maybe you will achieve enjoyment it things.
that's not a risk for me because i don't compete in video games like its my job lol thats a risk for you

[Anonymous No.6741216]

>>6741204
Playing and beating hard games isn't a competition. Once you start competing on leaderboards is when you are getting other people involved.

[Anonymous No.6741218]

>>6741117
>i'm better than you because i play games to wax my carrot to elfs instead of improve my gaming abilities, knowledge, etc.
fuck off retarded twat.

[Anonymous No.6741238]

>>6741164
>maybe you will achieve enjoyment it things.
> achieve enjoyment it things.
If you play fun games enjoyment is immediate, start to finish, you don't need a workout schedule in order to one day ''achieve enjoyment'' , what a sad way to game, as if fun has to be earned like some reward for getting a high score or fast time?

>>6741218
I can see why he bothers you. You have to crawl on glass for hours and weeks to extract 1 ounce of fun, while the secret of mana anon is having fun immediately and effortlessly lol

[Anonymous No.6741241]

>>6741218
so mad!

[Anonymous No.6741245]

>>6741117
>most fun i have is with regular games cause i enjoy them for what they are
What does this mean? Escapism?

[Anonymous No.6741250]

>>6741238
Playing with blocks gives more immediate enjoyment and is easier than video games. Why would anyone waste their time with video games, I know you aren't having fun with them.

[Anonymous No.6741251]

>>6741238
That fun is really shallow and forgettable that's the problem. If there was a way to achieve similar levels of fun in games without the frustration that challenge brings that'd be great, but that's just not how it works. If you're used to playing challenging games, easy stuff will feel really boring and autopilotey, without any meaningful engagement happening.

[Anonymous No.6741253]

>>6741117
OP here. Not necessarily. Some of us enjoy hard games, and some of us alse have traumatic brain injuries, and hard games means faster progress in rebuilding our mental faculties.
>>6741138
>>6741169
How long did it take you to 1cc? I've put like 10 hours in so far, and no luck. I've memorized most of the first three stages, but I still lose a life 7 out of 10 times on level 2's miniboss, and I die over and over again on stage three's boss.
>>6741204
>that's what they say until they get into leaderboard wars and showing off their replays and arguing about who's the best and who might be cheating
It would be nice to get to that level at all, desu. Once I'm there, I feel like I've accomplished what I set out to accomplish. Bullet hell games in particular don't turn into a competition until long after you've gotten good enough at them to not die and then solved the puzzle of how to maximize your points and THEN learned not to die while pursuing them.

I'm just still tryna learn how to complete the games without dying and build the neuropathways required to focus for more than two seconds.

[Anonymous No.6741257]

>>6741251
>If you're used to playing challenging games, easy stuff will feel really boring and autopilotey, without any meaningful engagement happening.
Nah, it's temporary. If you take a break your brain will return to normal and you'll be able to enjoy games like a healthy person instead of whipping yourself for weeks and months hoping to get a tiny temporary high from another ''vidya achievement''

[Anonymous No.6741258]

>>6741253
Dammit, forgot about the wordfilters here. Brain damage.

[Anonymous No.6741259]

>>6741257
Can say with absolute certainty that this is not true, since I've spent months without touching vidya due to being busy

[Anonymous No.6741261]

>>6741253
>How long did it take you to 1cc?
A 1-ALL took me 20ish hours. This was years ago.

[Anonymous No.6741265]

>>6741257
Playing Kirby just isn't enjoyable man

[Anonymous No.6741271]

>>6741259
were you ''busy'' doing challenging things that interested you in real life or were you ''busy'' vegetating doing menial work that didn't improve your life or mean much to you? It's true that people with shitty lives and no goals use gaming achievements as escapism to get a sense of accomplishment they can't otherwise get

[Anonymous No.6741273]

>>6741253
Just bomb, stage 2 gives you a bomb right after the midboss so you can replenish your stock. Boss 3 is tricky if you're a newcomer, play around with part destruction order though it can make things significantly easier, including those little back turrets it has

[Anonymous No.6741281]

>>6741271
The former, was using all of my free time to study art until I burnt myself out and decided to slow down. If not for harder games I'd just drop video games altogether since they'd become an unrewarding waste of time

[Anonymous No.6741298]

>>6741271
>>6741238
>I can see why he bothers you. You have to crawl on glass for hours and weeks to extract 1 ounce of fun, while the secret of mana anon is having fun immediately and effortlessly lol
Speedrunner here. This is so narrow minded let me explain something.
That effortless fun might work for kids or casual players who have other hobbies, but if you've ruined your life (like I have) and all you have is gaming then effortless fun doesn't happen, my escapism comes at a big cost, sorry to burst your bubble. I need a skillful grind to feel that escapism and I need to improve to earn enjoyment. Speedrunning is all I have now. The prospect of a world record or new personal best or even finding a new glitch gives me enough enjoyment to continue down this path of self-destruction.

[Anonymous No.6741308]

>>6741273
Oh, I forgot to mention that I'm trying to 1cc without using any bombs. If I break that, then, yeah, that makes a game a lot easier, but I want to at least see the second loop (and then I'll honestly probably just use as many credits as I need to get through it; trying to 1cc second loop sounds like a godlike achievement and is not an immediate goal).

[Anonymous No.6741329]

>>6741308
Why not 1cc the game with bombs first, then gradually cut down your bomb usage as you get better? 2-ALL is a huge commitment, you can expect to spend over a year on that since even good players spend in the ballpark of 400 hrs to get it afaik.

[Anonymous No.6741343]

>>6741308
Yeah the jump from a 1-ALL to a 2-ALL is enormous. Your best bet is to get your skill level by up clearing other shmups before you commit to something as big as a DDP 2-ALL.

[Anonymous No.6741361]

>>6741329
Because I'd feel like a pussy. I enjoy that crawling-on-broken-glass feeling a little bit, to be honest. Not just for the achievement, but for the grind itself. Making it easier when I know I can do it eventually with no bombs or deaths seems pointless...
But I guess you may be right, at least when it comes to using bombs at certain strategic points. I just don't want to become reliant on bombs, because you don't improve that way. Playing Touhou on Normal or Hard without bombs is often more difficult than bomb-spamming your way through lunatic.
>>6741343
I just watched the first two levels of the second loop on YouTube, and they didn't look all that different than the first loop - slightly more bullets, and they're a little faster - but I guess the difficulty ramps up after that? I'll have to watch the entire video.
What other BH shmups would you recommend (retro or not)? I've got most of the major ones: Espagaluda 1&2/DDP series/Deathsmiles/other Cave games, Ikaruga, Mars Matrix, eXceed collection, Hellsinker, Touhout, that one obscure one for the NES with a weird name like Pro Carnival Gay Whatever that was made for competitive gaming...

Also, any anon: are there any good hard games for the 2600? I read an article about the recent murder-suicide of that one Atari autist, and it made me wonder. I have a book on programming the 2600, and the limitations make it sound difficult to develop any game for at all in the first place.

[Anonymous No.6741368]

>>6741361
The games give you bombs for a reason. Self-Imposed challenges should be done only when you can actually clear the game. Play DOJ expert shot type if you don't want that many bombs.

[Anonymous No.6741378]

Michael Bolton for SNES

[Anonymous No.6741392]

>>6741378
wat

[Anonymous No.6741397]

>>6741368
Well, where do you draw the line, then? My issue is, again, I don't want to get in the habit of using a bomb to avoid situations where I would otherwise be improving my skills. Bombs make you too comfortable if you know you can use them to get out of any situation. Maybe I can see the point in using them in places where I die consistently, but handing out bombs like candy seems like a worthless strategy overall.

[Anonymous No.6741402]

This. Starts off easy, but doesn't stay that way for long.

I just discovered there was a ZAMN Doom II TC while I was searching for this image and came in my pants a little bit.

[Anonymous No.6741408]

>>6741397
The thing is there will always be situations where you will need to bomb. You will always fuck up your route and get into an undodgebale situation. Yeah you can sometimes get lucky and get out of that situation, but you can't rely on luck. It would be silly to not bomb in those situations as you are just wasting your time relying on luck. If you truly don't want to bomb, then learn DDP for score, where half of your score comes from not bombing and the other half from chaining.

[Anonymous No.6741416]

>>6741392
For my money, it’s got the best version of “When a man loves a woman”

[Anonymous No.6741437]

>>6741408
I thought the way to get out of those situations was to memorize the size of the ship's hitbox, improve my response time, and then learn how to consistently weave in between the wall of bullets that are trying to rape me.
I think maybe I will use bombs, but keep them to a minimum.
>>6741416
What the fuck are you talking about? Are you referencing something, or that just a retarded shitpost?

[Anonymous No.6741451]

Nethack.

First time I ascended it took like a week of me living and breathing the game. I'd get off for the night and pull up the wiki to read up on the floors I'd be playing the next day. It was intense.

[Anonymous No.6741453]

>>6741437
If you are cornered in a situation like this you are mostly fuck unless you get lucky. Situations like this are when you want to bomb. You can control the bullets and route the stage so that you don't get into situations like this, but sometimes you fuck up and shit gets too chaotic.

[Anonymous No.6741601]

he's talking to himself again baka

[Anonymous No.6741626]

>>6741298
>Speedrunner here. This is so narrow minded let me explain something.
That effortless fun might work for kids or casual players who have other hobbies, but if you've ruined your life (like I have) and all you have is gaming then effortless fun doesn't happen, my escapism comes at a big cost, sorry to burst your bubble. I need a skillful grind to feel that escapism and I need to improve to earn enjoyment. Speedrunning is all I have now. The prospect of a world record or new personal best or even finding a new glitch gives me enough enjoyment to continue down this path of self-destruction.
best post so far

[Anonymous No.6741683]

>>6741271
It may seem sad or pathetic but playing and sticking with genuinly hard games definitly has help when it comes to facing hard things in real life for me. It helped prepare to me lose 100+ pounds, lifting weights, and even go back to school. If I never challenged my self with games, challenging myself in real life would definitly be harder. I would constantly tell myself things like "remember how long it took you to get good at IIDX, losing weight is just as long of a journey so stick with it".

[Anonymous No.6741726]

>>6741683
if vidya can catapult you towards more interesting and challenging things that improve you that's good, but people get hooked on games and see nothing beyond them, 5 years pass and theyre still in the same place having achieved nothing except virtual vidya shit, whether its grinding easy mmorpgs or hard IIDX doesn't make much difference, actually they regress in those 5 years cause they get older and lose opportunities

[Anonymous No.6741883]

I got Ninja Warriors Once Again and while it's fun, it's kicking my ass.
Any tips /vr/os?

[Anonymous No.6741893]

>>6741361
>that one obscure one for the NES with a weird name like Pro Carnival Gay Whatever that was made for competitive gaming
Recca, awesome game. Play Mars Matrix though, it's very satisfying

[Anonymous No.6741896]

>>6741453
>situation where you bomb
I don't think so, you could use laser to slow down the ship speed and get out of there pretty easily

[Anonymous No.6742095]

>>6741241
cute

[Anonymous No.6742268]

>>6741117
>dodonpachi op picture
>the very first reply is jarpig cope

jesus

[Anonymous No.6742270]

>jarpig cope
What the fuck do these words mean

[Anonymous No.6742296]

>>6741204
People like you are "toxic casuals".

People like you are usually projecting because you actually suck at video games and wouldn't have a chance in hell of being a ranked player in any game.

So you go around telling everyone that doesn't play video games exactly like you that they're wrong and playing video games is wrong.

There are MANY reasons why people play games, "fun" is only one reason of many.

If you only play video games for fun, good for you, but don't turn into a toxic video game gatekeeper who hates everyone that takes games more serious than you, it's pathetic.

[Anonymous No.6742376]

>>6742296
what's toxic about his warnings that competitive gaming is often a vain and empty pursuit which substitutes real achievements with virtual achievements? sounds like he hit a nerve and cut you deep

>There are MANY reasons why people play games, "fun" is only one reason of many.
such as?

[Anonymous No.6742382]

>>6742376
This is the post of someone that is bad at games and calls anyone that's good "tryhard"
Sad pathetic life he leads

[Anonymous No.6742383]

>>6742382
>can't argue so I'll insult
you're just proving the point

[Anonymous No.6742392]

>>6742383
So you are indeed a faggot that considers anyone better than you at something to be useless.

[Anonymous No.6742394]

>>6742376
The truth is that it's gaming as a whole, if you're not playing for achievement you're playing for escapism, both can be used to fill holes that real life pursuits should. When advocating one but not the other, the point gets undercut.

[Anonymous No.6742406]

>>6742394
kek /vr/ proves itself more retarded than /v/ and /pol/ combined

[Anonymous No.6742408]

>>6742296
>People like you are usually projecting because you actually suck at video games and wouldn't have a chance in hell of being a ranked player in any game.
typical response to any criticism gamers hear when they're stuck in the speedrun and score chasing no-life grind. Their immediate response is: "uhh well, you must suck at Donkey Kong!! gotcha!" lol,

it's like telling a guy who wasted $20k on funko-pops that he made a bad investment, and he goes "'well uhh your collection must SUCK!" xD
their brains are so fried they value everything in terms of their little hobby

[Anonymous No.6742412]

>>6742394
>if you're not playing for achievement you're playing for escapism
anytime you get in the zone, for hours, while gaming you're escaping reality and your responsibilities, it's all escapism

[Anonymous No.6742417]

>>6742412
Doesn't really matter what you call it, if you're getting invested in a world, characters & graphics or if you're in a flow state, it's just surrogate experiences that don't meaningfully contribute to your life. Saying that one's a waste while advocating playing Mana or whatever just indicates that the person didn't really think things through.

[Anonymous No.6742446]

>>6742417
>Saying that one's a waste while advocating playing Mana or whatever just indicates that the person didn't really think things through.
the guy speedrun grinding mana for 800+ hours is wasting far more time and energy than the guy who beat it casually once or twice after 25hours.
the difference is the competitive mindset is more prone to wasting MORE time, and also diluting the experience where the game stops being fun itself, what's fun is the secondary thing of better time or higher score. Those 800hours of practice aren't even fun, they're probably tedious and frustrating, the fun is probably 5% of it

[Anonymous No.6742454]

>>6742446
What I see more often is that the mana guy will then just start a different game instead of moving on, so you'll end up with the same 800 hours being spent with even less to show for it

[Anonymous No.6742479]

>>6742454
that happens far less to casuals because they aren't gaming as much daily. they play more casually.
The competitive gamer will rack up 800 hours in 5 months. The casual might take 15 months or more for that kind of mileage.

[Anonymous No.6742509]

>>6742479
Casuals by definition don't play as much yeah, that's regardless of which type of game they play or why they play it. Lots of casual DOTA/CSGO players that enter a very competitive mindset when actually playing. A lot of the most time sucking genres aren't competitive though - MMO's, RPG's, and so on. This really isn't a problem for the likes of arcade games outside of extremely niche communities like speedrunning, for example 1-2 hours a day is the most common playtime you'll find among shmup players

[Anonymous No.6742882]

>>6741117
>pic related and its hard enough if you want
What do you mean by "if you want"? You stop spamming pause casting to boss fights? You deliberately hinder yourself for enjoyment's sake instead of getting a game designed intentionally and deliberately well to stimulate flow? And how's that different from anything else?

[Anonymous No.6743119]

>>6741164
>Not everyone challenges themselves to prove themselves to others.
I guess you missed the /shmupg/ era then.

[Anonymous No.6743592]

Once again people only think in extremes. Not everyone who enjoys playing challenging games is speedrunning or going for a top score.