Shiren the Wanderer, fortunes and randomness

[Anonymous No.6674930]

After playing the DS port of Shiren the Wanderer a lot I started getting more curious to revisit the original. I've also been curious about the fortune teller and whether or not she just says random things since finding concrete answers has been hard.

Long story short, I think her fortunes do give insight into which levels lay ahead when you talk to her, but depending on what you do after it can make her reading incorrect.

So then to start, Shiren doesn't generate random levels, it pulls from a library of pre-made levels. If you save scum before entering a level it will be the same every time you go in. I haven't worked out exactly how many steps it takes, but it seems to be between 30 and 40 steps to cycle to a new map.

In pic related for example the fortune teller warns of explosions and if I go directly to the exit, the next level it generates always has a bomb right beside where you spawn.

However, the fortune teller is some 20 steps from the town exit so if you talk to her near the end of your cycle it may change by the time you get there. Also if you just walk around the town it will cycle through different maps.

By doing this I have been able to consistently produce the same 6 maps after this point depending how many steps are taken before leaving the town.

Also the fortune teller doesn't change what the future maps will be, she just gives insight as to what kind of path you're on.

[Anonymous No.6674940]

>>6674930
Here is the explosion trap mentioned. Each time you enter the level everything is exactly the same including items found and whether enemies will drop an item when killed.

Furthermore the same with going from a town to dungeon, the next maps you will come to can also be predicted and replicated. Whether you stay on the same path in terms of icy winds, firey winds etc I haven't determined yet but from my experience with Shiren previous to this it would seem like if it was a trap-laden dungeon that it would be like that for the whole journey.

If there's interest I'll update as I learn more.

[Anonymous No.6675457]

>>6674930
>>6674940
I... Okay...?
What exactly are you studying here, the fortune teller or how the RNG works in this game?

[Anonymous No.6676265]

>>6675457
Mostly I'm curious how the game works.
We've had a few Shiren discussions and there's been no consensus on whether the fortune teller is just saying random things or not. So I'm testing it out various scenarios a d recording the results in case anyone else is interested.

[Anonymous No.6676392]

I know in Pokemon Mystery Dungeon the RNG is predictable enough that speedrunners (or people who just want a leg up in the postgame dungeons) can exploit it to choose the kind of floors they want. I've never seen anything like that for the Shiren games though.

[Anonymous No.6677027]

>>6676392
That makes sense given what I've seen doing this testing and know if Chunsoft's games and console roguelikes in general.

[Anonymous No.6677860]

>>6677027
Why not just make them all random like normal RLs?

[Anonymous No.6678773]

>>6677860
I suspect it's simply memory constraints. In computer roguelikes it's not a problem to generate a map full of monsters and junk and keep it in memory. Most console roguelikes have trouble even with large item stacks like you'd get in Nethack etc so selecting from pre-made levels would be the only way to go.

[Anonymous No.6678819]

So what's the best version of this game anyways? I like Chocobos and the Pokemon mystery dungeons a lot.

[Anonymous No.6678945]

>>6678819
When all's said and done the DS port is probably the best. The more I delve into the original I can see it feels more random in some ways which is kind of ironic given the testing I'm doing. But that's mostly only appealing once you've played it to death a little already.

Personally I find PMD too hand-holdy and it's boring for far too long before you reach the real RL dungeons. But I know it has many fans. I would say start with Shiren DS, don't be afraid to use the warehouse and just have fun. I think it's far from perfect, especially the more I delve into how it does things, but it's an excellent game in general and a very good entry into getting the "hook" of roguelike games, which is something Chocobo and the PMD games missed.

[Anonymous No.6678962]

>>6674930
Those are the ugliest, most randomly sized non-integer pixels I've ever goddamn seen. What was this taken from?

[Anonymous No.6679016]

>>6678962
A shitty old PSP with a wonky screen lol. I'm not playing for the graphics though.

[Anonymous No.6680725]

>>6676392
>there are people who speedrun fucking Pokemon mystery dugeon

Jesus Christ

[Anonymous No.6681446]

Some more testing and I can pretty much confirm that the fortune teller's readings have an impact on the game.

I was able to manipulate things so that one step difference would give me either a reading that a hurricane was coming or one that I would have spring breezes but the level it generates when you first enter is seemingly the same.

The room you start in has a Pickpocket that will always do nothing the first turn and then drop 1182 gold when killed. Moving on though in the spring breeze run the enemy that comes in next is an Evil Soldier who passes over a blowback staff.

>>6680725
It seems almost every game has a speed running community nothing that weird.

[Anonymous No.6681473]

>>6681446
However that level with the hurricane fortune starts off the same but the enemy you encounter after the Pickpocket is a field bandit who has already turned the blowback staff into a weed. There is no way, even avoiding the initial Pickpocket to get to the blowback staff before the Field Bandit before he turns the blowback staff into a weed.

Furthermore even through many attempts it only seems possible to get one item on the whole floor (a sack of 344 gold) before a Field Bandit gets to them.

The spring breeze fortune run also has some on that level but there are more Evil Soldiers and Eggs and if quick you can get the gold, the blowback staff, a revival herb as well as a light and blastwave scroll.

Still testing to confirm this pattern continues into further levels but early results are similar.

[Anonymous No.6682772]

>>6681473
Further delving has pretty much confirmed it. The further in it gets harder to complete the levels in the same number of turns so both have the same map. The pattern is the same though, the "hurricane" set of levels consistently has more traps, worse enemies and fewer items than the same map generated on the "spring breeze" path.

[Anonymous No.6683471]

>>6682772
Final update most likely and then I'll let this archive until next time a Shrien discussion pops up on the board.

I was able to make it to the end of the game on the "spring breeze" path. The last few levels needed some retries but I had a couple genocide scrolls and a jar full of blastwaves by then that helped a lot.

No matter what, even going back several levels to try different approaches I couldn't make it past Waterfall Marsh on the "hurricanes" path. Even mapping out traps before hand, the enemies always overwhelm. Though keep in mind this was a no warehouse run.

[Anonymous No.6683738]

>>6683471
I wonder how many different lines she has.
Still, interesting study you have there. Not sure how useful it is but interesting regardless.

[Anonymous No.6685001]

>>6683738
There's half a dozen or so. In the end this testing has killed my interest in the game a little. As far as I can tell the way it works is that for each level there is a set of potential premade maps and then depending on which weather path you are on it adjusts enemies, items and traps.

Unlike other roguelikes where if you really know what you're doing dying feels like a mistake you made, Shiren is set up so that unless you use the warehouse and stockpile items to brute force a win it's a crapshoot. It is a little brilliant where the game will kill you over and over and then hand out a win so you feel like a badass. It is sad though because the aesthetics, setting and whole charm of the game are so wonderful. I want to love it but all this testing has just confirmed what my gut kept saying.

[Anonymous No.6686961]

>>6685001
The SNES version has a ton of exploits/tricks to get around bad luck, though most of them were fixed in the DS remake. But even in both versions, you're guaranteed a Bufu Staff on your first run which can carry you pretty far if you use it on the right enemy.

[Anonymous No.6687618]

>>6686961
Yeah it gives you a bufu staff before you know how valuable it is so there's a good chance you either waste it on something bad or die before warehousing it. I dunno, it's frustrating because it looks like the game has such potential but unlike a lot of other RLs it's mostly a careful illusion.

Nothing has made me want to learn coding more than being able to take Shiren's art and music assets and apply them to a real roguelike.