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/vr/ - Retro Games

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6627271 No.6627271 [Reply] [Original]

I want to get into their games and shmups as a whole. What are the best ones to start with?

>> No.6627279

DoDonPachi

>> No.6627281

>>6627271
This >>6627279

>> No.6627306

>>6627279
Mushihimesama is a whole lot simpler desu.

>> No.6627546

>>6627271
None, start with Toaplan, the superior shmup company.

>> No.6627583
File: 2.80 MB, 320x240, toaplanned.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6627583

>>6627546

>> No.6627595

IKARUGA

>> No.6627724

>>6627271
Espgaluda. Single loop, and easy so long as you bomb the hard parts manually instead of relying on the autobomb.

>> No.6627735

>>6627724
It's been a while since I've gotten a cheeky kuso clear in, I might have to do that.

>> No.6627760
File: 58 KB, 240x320, dangun_feveron.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6627760

>>6627271
Dangun Feveron, it's got Cave's least retarded scoring system and lightning fast bullets compared to Dohdawnpatch.

>> No.6627874

Best Cave shmup of the 68k era: Dangun
Best Cave shmup of the PGM era: Daioujou
Best Cave shmup of the SH3 era: Mushi Futari

>> No.6627903

Mushihime-sama Futari is one of the best ones. DDP Daifukkatsu and DDP Daioujou are also good.

>> No.6628197

Ketsui for addictive scoring system/challenge, Progear for something a little different/easier, Mushihime Futari just for the super impressive visuals/experience etc

>> No.6628218

Anything but Dodonpachi, the scoring is AIDS and is only fun if you've put a metric shitton of hours into learning the chains. Just find a game that looks cool to you visually and pick up a modern port like the ones by M2 or even the steam ones. They have good practice tools, novice difficulties and a lot of different modes. Ketsui's the best but you can't go wrong with ESPra.de or Dangun Feveron.

>> No.6628225

Of the ones I played at the arcade, I think the pig one was the most interesting. The bug one was cool too.

>> No.6628319

>>6627271
If you're new to shmups, I'd go for Deathsmiles. The first couple of stages are a lot more forgiving than many other shmups, so you have some time to experiment and just get yourself used to the genre. The girls are also really cute!
Really though, there's little reason not to just get all of Cave's games and try them all out. See what clicks for you, y'know?

In general, STGs (shmups) are is one of the most difficult genres to get into. They're really difficult and unforgiving. You're expected to be constantly paying attention to everything that's going on on-screen and learn from every single mistake you make without ever getting frustrated with yourself while dealing with the constant unyielding curtains of bullets. There's also tons of stuff you have to just know, like how you'll die all the time if you don't use focused movement or that you're expected to bomb really really aggressively.
Most everyone gets frustrated or stuck or burnt out playing their first STG. If you find that happening to you, rather than giving up on the genre as a whole I'd really recommend trying Touhou Project 9.5 Shoot the Bullet, and especially Touhou 14.5 Impossible Spell Card.
Both of these games are level-based STGs, so you don't lose any progress when you die. This takes a lot of pain out the process of discovering the genre. Impossible Spell Card in particular is a wildly original STG/Puzzle game hybrid. If you're good at thinking out of the box and solving puzzles, you can beat almost every stage with very little STG skill.
Of course, there's nothing stopping you from eventually defeating any STG you like on nothing but willpower, stick-toitdidness and sheer big dick energy, so feel free to ignore that advice if the punch-brick-wall-until-it-or-I-break approach sounds more fun to you. I know plenty of people who did that and still love STGs to this day.
Just don't make my mistake of giving up and wrongly thinking that you don't like STGs for years.

>> No.6628390

>>6627271
Zaxxon for the Apple ][ is actually pretty great.

>> No.6629465

>>6627760
This is awesome, thanks.

>> No.6629475

>>6628197
>Ketsui for addictive scoring system
lol no

>> No.6629570

I really like Ibara, although I have no idea what I'm doing beyond shooting and dodging.

>> No.6629574

>>6627874
Y u faggot?

>> No.6629593

>>6629570
Ibara looks really ugly imo, messy, too many particle effects, very dull colour scheme, looks like someone took the soul and life out of gun frontier or garegga

>> No.6629660

Cave Entry level for 1CC are ESP Ra DE Guwangi and Espgaluda.

Anyone telling you something else is bullshit of people who know nothing.

>> No.6629667

>>6629660
anything sub-40 is entry level

>> No.6629684

>>6627271
All SHMUPS are the same so just pick one and go at it.

>> No.6629685

>>6629684
Please elaborate on how Hellsinker is the same as Radiant Silvergun

>> No.6629686

>>6629684
By the way shmup isn't an abbreviation you retard, why type it in all caps?

>> No.6629689

>>6629685
once you understand their scoring gimmicks it's just route & shoot. route & shoot, and then route & shoot. route & shoot? yes, route & shoot.

>> No.6629690

>>6629686
to get this response, you got OWNED

>> No.6629691

>>6629689
You didn't elaborate. Go into specific detail on how they're different.

>> No.6629695

>>6629689
Lol, wtf is this shit? "Routing" isn't some specific thing you do like moving or shooting, it can be any set of behaviors and strategies on the part of the player as long as they bring good results. Almost every single player game with depth has routing.

>> No.6629704

>>6629695
the only thing you can do in shmups is find more efficient paths while holding down auto-fire, and in some cases using secondary fire.

>> No.6629714

>>6629704
You sound like someone who's parroting shit he's heard from others without even really understanding it, probably cause that's what you're doing. That's damn near every single player game. You have an objective, and you have better or worse ways to achieve it defined in the code, as you play more you try to find better ways of achieving your goal by the use of the game's mechanics/systems. I guess if you play something like a sandbox toy like Minecraft beating the game and getting good isn't the point...but even there anyone who isn't braindead will want to optimize and learn to achieve their goals. Also, nearly all shmups have secondary weapons, that's more or less the bare minimum.

>> No.6629717

All books are the same, you just read words.
All films are the same, you just watch actors do things.
All games are the same, you just press buttons and do things.

>> No.6629720

>>6629714
>secondary weapons
secondary fire, meaning a laser option, so you aren't just holding down auto-fire.

>That's damn near every single player game.
shmups are especially limited to pathfinding, specially if they have no secondary fire option, that's one thing Cave did right.

>> No.6629730

>>6629720
You really are clueless aren't you? Both of the games the other anon mentioned, Hellsinker and Radiant Silvergun, have a ton of weapons in RSG's case it's 7 iirc and Hellsinker has a roster of very different playing character ships. Cave themselves have far more than shot and laser, look at Guwange or Deathsmiles for christ's sake. There's a fuckton of games with a wide arsenal of weapons, either at once or ones that can be picked up, you don't even have to go far to find them. It's also worth noting that the games are well designed around these weapons, it's not like euroshmups where they throw whatever half baked garbage they can come up with and playtest it for about a minute.

>> No.6629731

>>6629730
>still replying to a guy who says "all shmups are the same"
You know it's futile.

>> No.6629750

>>6629730
>You really are clueless aren't you?
Maybe you are? What are you mad about?
>Hellsinker and Radiant Silvergun, have a ton of weapons in RSG's case it's 7
Because when people think shmup they think Hellsinker lol
>There's a fuckton of games with a wide arsenal of weapons,
a wide arsenal of less optimal auto-fire options? Cool.
I'd rather have a Dodonpachi laser or Esprade bubble shot.

>> No.6629764

>>6629667
stupid.

>> No.6629768

>>6629750
>NO U
Cmon buddy, you clearly haven't got a clue.
>Because when people think shmup they think Hellsinker lol
Sure they do, they also think of RSG, Ikaruga, Crimzon Clover, Karous, Gradius, Mars Matrix, Shikigami No Shiro, Brave Blade, Gunbird 2, Dragon Blaze and way more. The games are out there, they're easy to find, they're recommended constantly. Just cause you haven't played any of them (but still see fit to comment on the genre lol) doesn't mean they suddenly don't exist.
>a wide arsenal of less optimal auto-fire options?
Swords, spears, punches, short ranged tag lock ons, automatic lock ons, shields, bullet slowing defensive fields, offensive fields, multidirectional shots, charged attacks, options you can controls or place in specific parts of the screen, reflective mechanics, short ranged charged bursts, small bombs that have gravity applied to them, enemy grabs and throws, and more. There are games where a sub-shot acts like the main mechanic of entire genres (Revolver 360, Cabal shooters). Expand your knowledge, or keep parroting nonsense I guess.

>> No.6629785

>>6629768
>Sure they do
nobody does

>> No.6629790

>>6629768
RSG and Ikaruga are redeemed by their puzzle elements, but bogged down by their shmup elements.
Everything else you mentioned is just a gimmick to attract new players, once the novelty wears off you realize you're back to routing and shooting, whether I pickup a shield or extra life isn't much of a difference.

>> No.6629796

>>6629731
Because it's true? Are you people actually trying to say the gameplay of this genre isn't the exact same for every game minus some gimmicks? It's a boring and dead genre that just rehashes the same shit over and over with different coats of pain.
Same as fighting games.

>> No.6629798

>>6629796
>same as fighting games
Oh boy this'll be good, please tell me how Killer Instinct is exactly the same as Soul Calibur

>> No.6629801

>>6629790
>RSG and Ikaruga are redeemed by their puzzle elements, but bogged down by their shmup elements
How are they redeemed by their puzzle elements and bogged down by their shmup elements, can you explain?
>Everything else you mentioned is just a gimmick to attract new players
All of those mechanics are deeply integrated into the gameplay systems. A short ranged charged sword for example isn't just a different take on long range shots, it makes for far more aggressive risky gameplay typically. The shield I was talking about isn't a different take on the presentation of lives, it's a bullet blocking/scoring mechanic. Karous and Brave Blade for example give you a neutral shield that activates when you stop attacking/hold down the melee button and blocks shots along with having secondary effects.

>> No.6629806

>>6629796
That's a surface level impression. Shmups, like all well established mechanics oriented genres, are all about the little details that may go unnoticed by casual players (who don't have a good frame of reference to understand the gameplay impact) but nonetheless are a huge deal for anyone who plays the games since they make for different experiences.

>> No.6629807

>>6629798
All fighting games at their core are the same game. Period. Why don't YOU tell me how radically different they are. And ACTUALLY way different, not just different gimmicks or characters.
>>6629806
You're lying to yourself. You're even admitting right there that the only difference are tiny gimmicks.

>> No.6629808

>>6629807
You made the claim, so I asked you to lay out specific details that show how all the games are the same.

>> No.6629818

>>6629808
>how are they the same
Plays the exact same. I already said that, dipshit.

>> No.6629821

>>6629818
Ok so thanks for confirming you literally don't know what KI or SC are. How about you delete all your posts then kill yourself and end this embarrassment?

>> No.6629827

>>6629807
I said they're tiny to casuals with no frame of reference, to actual players they can mean the difference between a garbage game and a good one. To you both Mushihimesama Futari and Dodonpachi are probably going to come off as the same exact game, because they have the same basic mechanics. They're similar on a surface level, but once you start to actually play you'll notice that DDP uses a very strict all-or-nothing chaining system that doesn't rely on proximity while Futari has a more loose system where you have to point blank enemies and pick your shot type based on your gem counter color (which you have indirect control over). Everything from how you go about fighting enemies, to the learning curve, to the overall difficulty of the games changes. And that's two games with ostensibly the same exact mechanics, there are many which have absolutely nothing in common with either of these games in terms of their basic mechanics.

>> No.6629828

>>6629821
Tell me how they play different or shut the fuck up. Either way you're a whiny little bitch

>> No.6629832

>>6629828
Hey retard you're the idiot who made the claim. How about you provide proof and fucking qualify your statements? Stop deflecting.

>> No.6629836

>>6629806
>>6629801
people tell me to try new shmups and when I do they feel the same and don't offer me a different experience. That's why I only play one shmup.

>> No.6629838

>>6629836
Which shmup?

>> No.6629841

>>6629838
>Trying to dox me
nah

>> No.6629842

>>6629832
>I said they play the same
>how do they play the same?
>by playing the same
There's nothing more for me to say, retardo.

>> No.6629846

>>6629842
Fucking what?
>you say they play the same without offering proof or qualifying statements
>i ask how a mere 2 examples are the same
>you then meltdown

>> No.6629847

>>6629841
The fuck is this mental illness? If I don't know which shmup you're playing, how am I meant to suggest one that plays nothing like it?

>> No.6629859

>>6629846
>meltdown
What? I'm saying they play the same. That's how they play. You punch and kick and reduce the other person's life to 0 in a 1v1 death match.
That's it. That's how ALL the games play? God you're fucking stupid.

>> No.6629863

>>6629859
>i'm saying they all play the same
Yes and I'm asking you to explain how 2 games play exactly the same with specific detail, let alone how the entire genre plays the same to each other.
You've yet to provide proof, and you can't be so fucking stupid as to think "depleting their health bar" counts as playing the same.
Forgetting of course some games you don't need to deplete the health bar.

>> No.6629867

>>6629847
>how am I meant to suggest one that plays nothing like it?
you aren't meant to suggest anything? I've tried different shmups and their differences don't make a difference.

>> No.6629869

>>6629867
>i-i've totally played shmups i just can't tell you how Battle Garegga and Raycrisis are literally the same

>> No.6629870

>>6629867
Sounds like you're full of shit, is all

>> No.6629871

>>6629863
>Yes and I'm asking you to explain how 2 games play exactly the same with specific detail
What the fuck kind of question is this? You don't get more complex than
>they play the same
How am I supposed to go more indepth than that? I've said it before but god you're fucking stupid.

>> No.6629873

>>6629871
>how am i supposed to go more indepth than that
By again, providing SPECIFIC DETAILED examples you faggot. Holy shit.

>> No.6629876

>>6629870
it's not hard to download roms

>> No.6629878

>>6629871
>they play the same because they play the same
>how can I be any more detailed I don't get it
Wouldn't be going around calling others stupid if I were you, lad

>> No.6629884

>>6629873
>>6629878
THEY
PLAY
THE
SAME
Christ. That's it, that's all the same to it. Skill from one transfers to the other perfectly outside of timing on moves and blocking

>> No.6629885

>>6629884
Thanks for bumping my thread with the most fucking stupid posts I've seen on the entirety of this site, but here's your last (You).
You haven't provided any specific detailed examples.

>> No.6629887

>>6629836
>That's why I only play one shmup.
Guaranteed to make it.

>> No.6629902

>>6629885
>my thread
So that explains why you're such a dipshit.

>> No.6629903

So the guy who says "the games play the same because they play the same" ISN'T the dipshit.
Hmmmmm

>> No.6630282

>>6629720
using multiple buttons doesn't make a shmup any deeper or more challenging. also toaplan did it before cave with iceman in batsugun.

>> No.6630316
File: 8 KB, 189x230, doubt.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6630316

>>6630282
>using multiple buttons doesn't make a shmup any deeper or more challenging
so DDP would be equally deep if they removed the laser and let you chain everything with auto-fire? rayforce would be equally deep if you removed the lock-on shot?

>> No.6630335
File: 252 KB, 850x1204, Raiden.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6630335

Grabbing upgrades to change shot type > having shot types assigned to buttons

Just another example of cave's degenerations of shmup fundamentals, like smaller hitboxes and slower patterns.

>> No.6630347
File: 133 KB, 354x363, feelsgood.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6630347

>tfw you come up with your own routes instead of just copymonkeying someone else's

>> No.6630385

>>6630335
How so? What makes grabbing upgrades better than button shot types?

>> No.6630413

>>6630385
It's pretty obvious. Having to time when to obtain the shot type changer whilst being showered by extremely fast enemy fire is far more skillful than just having shot types always readily available. If you couldn't figure that out you need to play more and different styles of shumps.

>> No.6630426

>>6630413
But by having more options at your disposal at once you are allowing a higher skill cap and strategic variety as the player can quickly swap to different tools instead of being limited to just 1 per section. The timing element is nice but it can be accomplished in better ways thanks to scoring systems such as with medals.

>> No.6630441

Its interesting how Gradius still has the best power up system despite being one of the first to add such a thing. In other games its a non element at best or annoying at worst (toaplans spastic power ups), but Gradius makes it a whole fun little system onto itself that you have to keep track of even when you are fully upgraded. Did others devs even try?

>> No.6630490

Hey /vr/ just because you like something doesn't make it objectively the best. Pretty insane I have to point this out to you literal children.

>> No.6630507
File: 13 KB, 182x194, DOUBTS.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6630507

>>6630413
>>6630335
>Having to time when to obtain the shot type changer whilst being showered by extremely fast enemy fire is far more skillful than just having shot types always readily available.
It takes more skill and depth to once in a while grab a powerup in Raiden, than to use DOJ's laser to chain effectively the whole game.

>> No.6630770

Is there any difference between the Saturn Darius Gaiden and emulating arcade?

>> No.6630843

>>6629660
Don't forget Mushi 1.5 original modo.

>> No.6631320

Are shmups better with controllers or keyboards?

>> No.6631612

>>6630770
If you are emulating then you need to care.
if not Saturn have a couple of loading between stage minus that it's 99.99 arcade perfect.
>>6630843
I frankly never touched 1.5.

>> No.6632215

>>6631320
It's preference, I think Prometheus uses keyboard, Gus uses controller and a lot of people use arcade sticks.
I personally go with arcade stick because when I go to the arcade I don't have to adapt to a new controller.

>> No.6632325

>>6627271
>Cave
Don't bother
>shmups as a whole
Layer Section/Rayforce

>> No.6632331

>>6632325
I can't imagine what kind of ridiculous mental gymnastics you'd have to pull to claim that one is enjoyable but the other isn't lol

>> No.6632370

Made a post in this thread a couple days ago, come back to see that someone (you)'d me just to offer a no-substance contrarian quip, and then like 75 posts of slapfighting with a troll. Sounds about right for a shmup thread, never change, /vr/

>> No.6632423

>>6632370
Are you the guy who said all shmups and fighting games are the same?

>> No.6632546

>>6627760
Fever SOS is the English friendly version.
But it lacks the Bee Gees.

>> No.6632676

>>6632215
>I think Prometheus uses keyboard
of course, since he mainly plays world of warcraft these days

>> No.6633524

>>6632676
based

>> No.6634861

>>6627271
>starting with cave
Nigger start with the stuff before cave. Cave games are what you play once you've got some chops. Plus all their staff worked for other studios before cave was formed.

>> No.6636289

>>6632423
The truth?

>> No.6636293

>>6636289
Oh you are that guy. So it's been a day-ish since you got BTFO and you still don't get it.