Marble Zone: The Discussion

[Anonymous No.6575562]

What's with the hate people have for Marble Zone?
Most of the complaints seem to be that the level "isn't designed to go fast" and something about pushing blocks.
As if many other Sonic levels in the sequels didn't have all this and even in more quantity/more tedious ways, with levels that dragged forever?
Marble Zone was always a great zone in my memory, the distinct color scheme, the temple aesthetic, THE MUSIC!
Level design-wise, it has its share of speedy momentum sections (all the outdoors sections, with all the moving floors on the lava, and bouncing on enemies.
Then, yes, the sections inside the temple do have a few seconds of taking things slower, but I could name various levels that have things like this and more on the sequels, I don't get what's so irritating about it, since they don't even take that long, and then the rest of the temple section can be done rather quickly if you're good at it and don't get it, but even as a new player, I never found Marble particularly hard, it had a lot of tricky platforming that I found enjoyable. It still is fun to go through it without getting hit. Also there's some invincibility monitors if you know where they are, you can bypass some lava sections with it and finish the level faster, there's also hidden shortcuts. Finding all that shit made Marble very memorable, and nowadays I love going through it with muscle memory, it doesn't feel particularly slow, I can still maintain a steady speed, just not any onrail parts with loop-de-loops but that's fine, you don't need one of those in every level. The best part of Sonic is being able to maintain a certain speed while still doing platforming and dodging. On-rail sections are cool spectacles but not really what the gameplay is all about.
Seems like some history revisionism or nitpicking to me.

[Anonymous No.6575570]

>>6575562
It's the sections where you have to ride a block across the lava that irk me. I don't mind the uneven terrain and that there's a lot of enemies to avoid, but those parts of MZ drag the experience down for me in a way that not even Labyrinth Zone does.

[Anonymous No.6575571]

My only issue with it is that it introduces Caterkiller and his fucked up hitbox.

[Anonymous No.6575601]

>>6575570
>It's the sections where you have to ride a block across the lava that irk me
that's only required on Act 3

>>6575562
It's a meme argument 'people' made to hate on sonic 1. Those complaints weren't there in the 90s

[Anonymous No.6575602]

>>6575562
Thanks OP, I love Marble Zone. I think the one thing that could have really improved it would be multiple paths, but I know Sonic 1 didn't really have the expansive zones later games did. It's fun but just a bit *too* linear, so whenever I replay it and I have to take the exact same single route, it's kind of a slog. Other than that, great musical, cool visuals and atmosphere, decent challenge after Green Hill.

[Anonymous No.6575603]

>>6575570
>but those parts of MZ drag the experience down for me in a way that not even Labyrinth Zone does.
Woah, really? There's not even that many of them. There's various lava sections but for example on the first level it has platforming involved. Then on act 2 and act 3 there's like 2 or 3 actual block riding parts but they're very short, really. I think only the one in act 3 is a bit longer but still barely a handful of seconds. Are you telling me this is as bad and tedious as the gear screwing with starfish bandniks on Sonic 2, or the ghost/door switch combo in Sandopolis combined with waiting for the sand mountain to go up?
I didn't even think those short block ride parts were ever a thing to get upset about, and nobody I knew back in the day when the game was all the rage were bothered by it either. If anything, it was a cool break from all the action, a few seconds to just enjoy yourself these cool temple backgrounds and the earworm synthy music.
Sorry, maybe we're just different but I in no way understand how these short sections were more annoying to you than the slowmo and tricky stuff in Labyrinth.

[Anonymous No.6575604]

>>6575571
Well that's a new one.

[Anonymous No.6575606]

>>6575602
>I have to take the exact same single route
True but you can choose if you want to take the shortcuts or not. Obviously most people take them, but it's nice to revisit the other setpieces of the game you haven't visited in years too :)

[Anonymous No.6575612]

It's just a pain in the ass, and isn't fun. I don't care about the fact that it's not designed to go fast, but I do care about the fact that Sonic slips around like he has shoes made of butter. The precise platforming, the spike droppers that come out of fucking nowhere in Act 3, etc. It doesn't feel like it was made for Sonic, and feels out of place enough to put people off of the game

[Anonymous No.6575613]

>>6575612
>Sonic slips around like he has shoes made of butter.
What? are you emulating?
>The precise platforming,
Is this a complaint?
>the spike droppers that come out of fucking nowhere in Act 3
It gives you a sound cue

[Anonymous No.6575614]

>>6575612
>It doesn't feel like it was made for Sonic, and feels out of place enough to put people off of the game
Going by your criteria, I could say the same about many, maaaany other zones in the sequels. But I don't think Marble is out of place in a Sonic game, anyway.

[Anonymous No.6575618]

I'm surprised too. I loved the zone as a kid.
I hated Labyrinth Zone because I either couldn't beat it or by then Ihad been playing for too long for my parents' liking.

[Anonymous No.6575626]

>>6575562
I've never understood it either. I lived in blissful ignorance of this meme throughout my childhood and only saw it online when I grew up. Marble Zone is a great stage.

[Anonymous No.6575627]

>>6575603
On second thought I think I just hate all the lava sections, really. Sonic 2 has lava lakes in HTZ but they aren't nearly as long or annoying, imo
> Are you telling me this is as bad and tedious as the gear screwing with starfish bandniks on Sonic 2, or the ghost/door switch combo in Sandopolis combined with waiting for the sand mountain to go up?
Hmm. No, but I feel I'd be more irritated by those parts if they were in the second zone of the game. The starfish badniks for example only appear in Metropolis Zone, and by that point in Sonic 2 it feels more proper for the game to be throwing such annoyances at you. But Sonic 1 goes from "yay, zooming around on green hills and avoiding spike pits" to "AAAAAH LAVA LAKES AND CATERPILLARS WITH BROKEN HIT BOXES" way too quickly. On the other hand, I freely admit that I'm being somewhat of a baby about this, because really the zone didn't bother me at all as a kid.

[Anonymous No.6575787]

three acts and a boss fight is too much.

[Anonymous No.6575795]

>>6575787
I actually think it's the optimal way to fully realize zones.
As a kid I loves Sonic 2's more variety in zones, but some of them felt a bit underdeveloped, such as Oil Ocean or Hill Top. Few enemies scattered around, some sections feel copypasted, etc.
In Sonic 3 and S&K, they fixed this by making the zones larger (in some cases, maybe too large, plus they added mini bosses, many of them really boring and a slog to fight).
Sonic 1 is like the perfect balance between swift and well put up level design, and the 3 zones give you enough content to really immerse yourself in each and every zone. 3 acts, but they never feel like they drag forever.

[Anonymous No.6576289]

Sonic 1 would be the best of the original trilogy if not for Labyrinth Zone.

[Anonymous No.6576302]

the only level where you have to push something (once).

[Anonymous No.6576574]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4UeDnPzdsU

[Anonymous No.6576712]

It's just a meme. No levels in Sonic 1 are really badly designed (not even Labyrinth). Loved Marble Zone as a kid, still do today.

[Anonymous No.6577593]

>>6575562
I don't have an issue with it but I really hate the music in it. I hate Sonic 1's music in general.

[Anonymous No.6577792]

>>6575795
>in some cases, maybe too large,

At the time, each level was was supposed to big and sprawling enough to force new players to take at least a few attempts to find to the gates to chaos emerald bonus stages.

Like most old, arcadey games, it wants the player to master it by through repeating the game from the first level until they win.

[Anonymous No.6578083]

>>6577593
I can understand hating Labyrinth Zone's music, and maybe Spring Yard Zone, but the rest of the game is great. Starlight Zone best tune.

Master System Sonic 1 Scrap Brain shits all over the Genesis version though.

[Anonymous No.6578348]

>>6578083
>and maybe Spring Yard Zone,
what the fuck? It's probably the best zone in the game.
>>6577593
what the fuck??
You guys are really weird.

[Anonymous No.6578352]

>>6578348
>It's probably the best zone in the game.
For this reason, waiting for these blocks to move, no.

[Anonymous No.6578359]

>>6578352
Ah, more "waiting" arguments.
Again, waiting is in every Sonic game, Sonic 2 has it, Sonic 3 has it, Sonic & Knuckles has it.
These blocks in Spring Yard are only a small part of the level which is otherwise full of good platforming sections, and some of the best speed/momentum reward balance in the whole series, probably.

[Anonymous No.6578374]

>>6578348
>what the fuck? It's probably the best zone in the game.
I was talking about the music specifically. I don't hate it, but it's pretty low on the tier list of good Sonic music. Labyrinth Zone's music isn't even on that list.

[Anonymous No.6578376]

>>6578374
Wow. Spring Yard also happens to have my favorite piece of music in Sonic as well.
Sonic 1 in general has the best OST IMO, with Sonic 2 close second.

[Anonymous No.6578390]

People got overly attached to the marketing campaign that sonic needed to be "fast" and thus any time he is forced to go slow it's seen as a fault of the zone.

[Anonymous No.6578395]

>>6578390
Literally didn't happen until the Adventure era.

[Anonymous No.6578398]

>>6578395
>Literally didn't happen until the Adventure era.
Maybe, but most conversation about Sonic games has taken place on-line after the "adventure" era, so that's where the negative reputation comes from. I had no idea people didn't like it until i read that on the internet

[Anonymous No.6578404]

>>6578390
I wish we could uncurl that monkey's paw finger, the games feel more like racing games than platformers now.

[Anonymous No.6578406]

>>6578390
>>6578395
>>6578398
Interesting point reached.
Back then, nobody complained about Marble Zone, or the fact the game wasn't 100% "gotta go fast" all the time.
It seems to be a complaint from people who got into Sonic through Adventure games, who aren't used to actual platforming, or maybe have PTSD from platforming on the Adventure games, and they transport said PTSD to the classic 2D games.
At least, I think this is a viable theory about this hate for Marble Zone, which I don't remember at all back in the 90s.

[Anonymous No.6578414]

>>6578390
I don't think Sonic has to be fast, but I think good Sonic levels have to "flow". I think it's a momentum physics-based platformer that works when you're playing as a ball with legs and can experience all the fun that this entails, whether it's bouncing off slopes, rolling down a hill, or yes, going fast. Stopping to wait for a block to move isn't any of those things, it kills the flow of the game. Consider a game like Sonic Team's own Nights, it'd be a real killjoy if your chain scoring was interrupted by having to wait for blocks to move. Do we really need a spot to "pause" in a level that lasts only 1 or 2 minutes? That's what the level transitions are for.

[Anonymous No.6578426]

Adventure2 babies think Sonic is "all about speed" which is why the Advance games were braindead garbage

[Anonymous No.6578447]

>>6578414
>Do we really need a spot to "pause" in a level that lasts only 1 or 2 minutes?
Name a moment in any of the Genesis Sonic games where you have to wait that much.

[Anonymous No.6578472]

>>6575562
the ntsc-u and pal versions of marble zone don't even have parallax scrolling, among it being one of the slowest levels with forced stopping, waiting, and clutz like area design, its just horrible.

Probably the only reason why I don't care for playing any of the sonic games besides 3 or mania anymore, 1 and 2's second stage lineup is absolute garbage

[Anonymous No.6578478]

>>6578472
>I don't care for playing any of the sonic games besides 3 or mania anymore
The absolute state of this pleb

[Anonymous No.6579268]

>>6578472
>1 and 2's second stage lineup is absolute garbage
>and 2

How the fuck can anyone hate Chemical Plant?
It's one of the most memorable levels in the series.

[Anonymous No.6579615]

>>6575562
it has the best music!

https://youtu.be/umz4Wl6mg5c
https://youtu.be/Uo4lu34F2lg

[Anonymous No.6579616]

>>6578352
>>6578374

[Anonymous No.6579751]

>>6579268
The hardest challenge in the game before Wing Fortress is in Chemical Plant Act 2. Sonic 2's difficulty curve is ridiculous. I've had friends who don't usually play platformers try out Sonic 2 and they always get a game over at this part and give up. If I skip that part for them and they continue playing they'll make it to Metropolis or Wing Fortress without any trouble. It's total bullshit that they throw this at the player so early on.

[Anonymous No.6580263]

Sonic 1 has no bad stages
End of thread

[Anonymous No.6580382]

>>6580263
Scrap Brain Zone Act 3 is a very clear indicator that they ran out of money and time. Imagine Sonic 2 ending with pallet swap Chemical Plant instead of Wing Fortress, or Sonic 3 & Knuckles ending with pallet swap Hydrocity instead of Death Egg.

[Anonymous No.6580423]

>>6579751
git gud, Sonic 2 was babby-tier, 7 yo me could finish it

[Anonymous No.6580460]

>>6575562
it comes down to level design
greenhill has alternate paths and makes every run in the level a blast
marble zone is the same linear path every time

[Anonymous No.6580472]

>>6580423
Same, I beat it around the same age, and I can still say it has a bullshit difficulty curve. The hardest thing in the game shouldn't be in the second level, it's bad design. Thinking about it, that rising water challenge in Chemical Plant is harder than any level in all Sonic CD. What a weird series.

[Anonymous No.6581550]

>>6580460
Does that warrant the amount of neo-hate it's getting, though?
There's plenty of other linear levels in the rest of the Sonic games too.
Also Marble does have shortcuts.

[Anonymous No.6581562]

>>6581550
Yes it does, and here’s why:
> The term goes back to the early 1900s, and is alleged to have originated when a ship run by British officers and a Chinese crew practiced a fire drill for a fire in the engine room. The bucket brigade drew water from the starboard side, took it to the engine room, and poured it onto the 'fire'. To prevent flooding, a separate crew hauled the accumulated water from the engine room, up to the main deck and heaved the water over the port side. The drill had previously gone according to plan until the orders became confused in translation. The bucket brigade began to draw the water from the starboard side, run over to the port side and then throw the water overboard, bypassing the engine room completely.[2] Additionally, the term is documented to have been used in the U.S. Marine Corps during World War II, where it was often expressed in the phrase "as screwed up as a Chinese fire drill".[3] It was also commonly used by Americans during the Korean War and the Vietnam War.

[Anonymous No.6581567]

>>6581562
hmmm, convincing. wtf I hate marble now!

[Anonymous No.6581657]

Amazing music and the level provides variety. I like it.

[Anonymous No.6581940]

>>6580382
But they could make 3rd act with assets of Scrap Brain again.

[Anonymous No.6582369]

>>6581550
marbel zone is much much worse than you remember, lets look at the layouts together

[Anonymous No.6582374]

>>6582369

[Anonymous No.6582376]

>>6582374

[Anonymous No.6582380]

>>6582369
>>6582374
>>6582376
Stop

[Anonymous No.6582391]

>>6582376
now lets check out the sonic 1 standard, green hill
look how its built around momentum, and alternate paths for replay value

[Anonymous No.6582395]

>>6582380
>>6582391

[Anonymous No.6582397]

>>6582395
maybe one day someone will edit the slower sonic 1 stages to match green hill zone quality

[Anonymous No.6582403]

>>6582395
Not even gonna look, I said stop and I meant it. Discussion over zoombie.

[Anonymous No.6582434]

>>6582397
This thread isn't about ghz vs marble zone, it's about why do certain modern people have some sort of history revisionist raging hateboner for marble zone.
There's many levels in later sonic games that also aren't as good as ghz. Shit, no other first stage in any of the other sonics is as good as ghz either.

[Anonymous No.6584042]

>>6582369
>>6582374
>>6582376
That's pure kino level design though. Great balance between momentum-based and precision-based platforming.
Sonic 2, Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles all have examples of actual bad level design in Sonic games. Sonic 1 doesn't, all the levels in it are pretty tight.
>>6580382
Scrap Brain Zone act 3 pulling out a revamped labyrinth was actually genius.

[Anonymous No.6584256]

>>6578426
Advance 1 was a classics-inspired game though, and 3 required you to explore to find the chao to get into the special stages.
Haven't played 2 though outside of Ultimate Flash Sonic years ago.

[Anonymous No.6584859]

i guess the soundtrack is hit/miss, idont know but marble zone sound tango-ish, should i seek profesional help?

[Anonymous No.6584872]

>>6582434
>Shit, no other first stage in any of the other sonics is as good as ghz either.
That's the problem. Green Hill Zone is such a good level, and then the game grinds to a halt with platforming challenges right after. The game says GO GO GO, and then once you get into it, it says "AAAAND stop". Marble isn't uniquely bad, but coming right after one of the best Sonic levels makes it seem worse than it maybe is.

[Anonymous No.6584880]

I think it would be funny to see Marble Zone remade in a new Sonic game. In all its glory with its Chip's Challenge-esque tiles and forcibly slowed-down game in a game that is otherwise super fast.

[Anonymous No.6584885]

>>6575562
>putting lava in the second level
Who do these assholes think they are?

[Anonymous No.6585184]

>>6584859
You're not entirely wrong, the synth kinda sounds like an accordion (tango uses bandoneon, but close enough).
I find Marble Zone to be one of the most unique music tracks in the entire Sonic series. In fact, I think all of the Sonic 1 zones have some of the best melodies in Sonic games period.

[Anonymous No.6585372]

Sonic 1 (16-bit) had a weird difficulty progression curve. It was like...

>Green Hill (Easy)
>Marble (Hard)
>Spring Yard (Easy)
>Labyrinth (Hard)
>Starlight (Easy)
>Scrap Brain (Hard)

Comparatively, Sonic 1 (8-bit)'s difficulty went from easy to hard quite smoothly.

I think less people would hate Marble Zone if it came later in the game.

[Anonymous No.6585378]

Love how every critique of Sonic games is LOL YOU JUST HOLD RIGHT AND GO FAST BORING GAME and then right after you have them complaining about levels like this where you absolutely don't do that.

[Anonymous No.6585381]

>>6585378
There are lots of games that require careful platforming and obstacle navigation, like every zone in Sonic 3. They just didn't really figure out the balance yet with Sonic 1. Flying Battery asks much more of the player than Marble Zone, but....it's fun.

[Anonymous No.6585387]

>>6585372
>>Marble (Hard)
Lol
Zoomers got exposed in this thread

[Anonymous No.6585392]

>>6585381
Carnival is a clusterfuck.

[Anonymous No.6585401]

>>6585392
I agree. Worst Zone, I think. At least Marble has really great music and interesting visuals.

[Anonymous No.6588006]

Bump

[Anonymous No.6588028]

>>6575562
I only have good childhood memories regarding the 2D Sonics. Can't say that I hate any of the zones.

[Anonymous No.6588721]

>>6588028
as OP said, if anything the one zone that was hated from sonic 1 was labyrinth (which is actually pretty based). Hating marble zone is a zoomer meme.

[Anonymous No.6589027]

>>6578426
Advance 1 was perfectly classic Sonic-grounded. 2 and 3 were kinda of a mess, but still pretty good.

[Anonymous No.6589068]

>>6575562
I REALLY enjoy methodical pin-point platforming so I never had an issue. Even as a child I understood and appreciated that every zone would be different. My only issue with Sonic 1 was the 3 act zone structure and they fixed that with Sonic 2. Great game

[Anonymous No.6589170]

>>6589068
I prefer the shorter but sweeter 3 acts in Sonic 1 than the long and sometimes boring stages in Sonic 3/S&K.
Sonic 2 was awesome, no question about it.
And long live Marble Zone!

[Anonymous No.6589173]

>>6584885
Marble is the 4th level in the game.
Guess what other very famous game had a lava stage in the 4th level?

[Anonymous No.6589291]

>>6579615
>Charles Hamilton
nigga

[Anonymous No.6589340]

>>6575571
Just roll bro

[Anonymous No.6589345]

>>6589340
nu-sonic fans can't into simple physics/momentum logic, they need instaspeed button and rollercoaster cutscenes.

[Anonymous No.6589348]

>>6579751
>It's total bullshit that they throw this at the player so early on.
Game design back then was start nice and easy then hit really hard, then tone it down again before gradually ramping up the rest of the way. It's so kids are less likely to beat the game during a rental and not purchase it.

[Anonymous No.6591070]

>>6589340
I do, and sometimes when I do I still take damage even if I also kill caterkiller.

>>6589345
drink my nad sweat.

[Anonymous No.6591108]

>>6580382
>Imagine Sonic 2 ending with pallet swap Chemical Plant
Yeah, haha, imagine...

[Anonymous No.6592278]

>>6591070
Get good zoomer

[Anonymous No.6594005]

So, in the end, what are the arguments against it, then?
Saying it has some waiting areas is a moot point because the same can be said for many other zones in the later games too as explained throughout the thread.
So where does the new found hate for Marble Zone coming from? Was it some youtuber?

[Anonymous No.6594418]

>>6591108
Hill Top Zone is literally a level full of this

[Anonymous No.6594469]

>>6575562
Waiting for platforms and crushers isn't fun. Pushing blocks less so. Admittedly, this is a lot less of the stage that most complaints make it out to be, but it's still trash aspect of the stage.
>but 2/3/&K have waiting too!
It was trash there too. Nobody said it was good, and it makes Hydrocity terrible.

[Anonymous No.6594480]

>>6594469
>this is a lot less of the stage that most complaints make it out to be
That's the whole point of the thread, in the past couple years, Marble Zone seem to be getting an exaggerated amount of hate.
>It was trash there too. Nobody said it was good, and it makes Hydrocity terrible.
Yet you don't see people complaining about the annoying aspects of the Sonic 2/3/k games.
Maybe the spindash works as a distraction that makes people forget about all the actual annoying stuff in levels like Marble Garden and Carnival Night.

[Anonymous No.6594496]

I like Marble Zone, the music is great, the backgrounds with the temples and mountains looks cool and I don't mind the slow/platforming sections.

[Anonymous No.6594505]

>>6594496
Also, why is it that everyone decided to hate on Marble Zone instead of Labyrinth Zone? That stage is absolute ass.

[Anonymous No.6594515]

>>6594505
Labyrinth is actually good too, but yeah, it was the actual stage people would hate because it's a huge patience test, and kids hate having patience.
The hate on Marble Zone is zoomer history revisionism, I'd like to know how it originated as well, I'm suspecting e-celebs.

[Anonymous No.6595445]

I really appreciate the music but not so much the gameplay

[Anonymous No.6595446]

>>6595445
No you dont

[Anonymous No.6595459]

>>6575562
I like marble zone, it's a very unique zone with a look and atmosphere that has never been replicated