/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.6312670]

What exactly is the hardest retro game?

Some contenders:
>Tower of Druaga
>Wizardry 4
>Riven

[Anonymous No.6312726]

>>6312670
>Riven
Wouldnt some of the sierra adventure games be better contenders? I could be wrong but its just that Riven never got brought up in these situations

[Anonymous No.6312934]

>>6312670
The one on the thickest and shortest CDIP.

[Anonymous No.6312936]

>>6312670
Cheetahmen 2

[Anonymous No.6312962]

riven isn't hard at all, the puzzles are logical. i played with pen and paper and noted anything out of the ordinary, and didn't hit any roadblocks while playing. it's not retro, but la mulana is much harder than riven.

[Anonymous No.6313071]

>>6312962
>la mulana
Isnt that a metroidvania or something?

[Anonymous No.6313197]

>>6312936
It has to be a proper finished game though, not a buggy mess.

[Anonymous No.6313227]

>>6312670
not related but kinda related due to current events. normies also say its difficult, which I can't see.

[Anonymous No.6313234]

>>6313227
Every SHMUP is easy if you're super autistic and basically a walking input recorder.

[Anonymous No.6313242]

no game that has actually been finished/1cced by a human being should be eligible

[Anonymous No.6313350]

>>6312670
Spelunker

[Anonymous No.6313708]

>>6312934
>CDIP
What?

[Anonymous No.6313773]

>>6312670
>Riven
Not even that hard for a game of its type.

[Anonymous No.6314739]

Fate: Gates at Dawn.

[Anonymous No.6315640]

>>6312934
What is a CDIP?

[Anonymous No.6315668]

>>6312670
takeshi's challenge

[Anonymous No.6315752]

>>6315668
Not that hard if you know what to do.
Well, except for that fucking paragliding minigame, what a pain.

[Anonymous No.6315898]

>>6315640
A chip with a ceramic package

[Father Electronics Boutique No.6316035]

"Hard" is pretty relative but Druaga is a good combination of challenging mechanics with cryptic secrets.

[Anonymous No.6317703]

>>6315668
That could be it.

[Anonymous No.6317708]

>>6312670

[Anonymous No.6317720]

>>6315668
This.

[Anonymous No.6319059]

>>6315898
Oh, alright.

[Anonymous No.6320575]

>>6313350
It doesn't seem that bad.

[Anonymous No.6320618]

>>6317708
>To complete the game you need to beat five levels. The first three will likely take you a couple of years to beat. The hellish fourth level is where most players were giving up. In 2002 there were 34 people who had completed the game.

[Anonymous No.6320635]

Maybe Smash TV hardly anyones gotten the 1cc and even then theyre suspect. A lot of it is down to bullshit rng as it tends to be at the higher tiers of difficulty, that or retarded cryptic puzzles.

[Anonymous No.6321851]

>>6320618
Tell us more.

[Anonymous No.6322358]

[Anonymous No.6322392]

>>6312670
If you mean the hardest games that are still fun and addictive to play I would have to go with: Swordmaster (NES, this may be the hardest if you don't know what you are doing), The Immortal (Genesis and DOS, this is just INSANELY difficult), Fester's Quest (NES, have to start from the beginning after each death but keep your weapons and bosses don't re-appear), Ninja Gaiden III (NES), Milon's Secret Castle (NES, long and have to do in one sitting), Hero Quest (DOS, good luck), Silpheed (Sega CD, asteroid level LOL), Batman and Robin (Sega CD, my hands got tired on driving level 4), UN Squadron (SNES, I love this game but never beat it), Nightmare on Elm Street (DOS VERSION ONLY, others are crap, the game literally messes with you).

[Anonymous No.6323594]

>>6312726
>sierra adventure games
Which one?

[Anonymous No.6325247]

>>6321851
Apparently it's a game where you control robots by using basic software engineering.

[Anonymous No.6325362]

>>6313071
Try it, you'll see. It's kind of a metroidvania, but in practice it's more of a puzzle platformer with some of the toughest puzzles I've played. Pen and paper is mandatory, and even then you'll struggle at times. It's a bit like Indiana Jones, you play as an archeologist and the history and lore of each area is tied into puzzle solutions. You trigger traps, decipher runes and delve into the history of gods and monsters to progress. It's pretty cool. Movement is deliberately stiff like Castlevania (you have a whip too), but barely any of the difficulty or progression is tied to standard metroidvania stuff as you'd imagine.

[Anonymous No.6325375]

>>6322358
I agree that this was the hardest and most fun game I've ever played.

[Anonymous No.6325380]

>>6321851
It's basically a Zachtronics game but made in 1984.

[Anonymous No.6326493]

>>6313773
What makes it so hard?

[Anonymous No.6326685]

>>6312670
Ketsui (Ura loop 2-All). PolyGame Master is a 1997 platform so it counts.

[Anonymous No.6327580]

>>6322358
I second this! This game made me rage quit so hard when i was a kid. I literally got soap in the mouth multiple times from cursing this game out!

[Anonymous No.6327886]

>>6314739
This doesn't seem that hard.

[Anonymous No.6328948]

http://notpron.org/notpron/

This in 10 years.

[Anonymous No.6329047]

>wizardry 4
>riven
>hard
Holy shit this board is retarded

[Anonymous No.6329048]

>>6327886
I think it's hard in the sense that almost nobody manages to complete it because it's huge and drags on forever.

[Anonymous No.6329056]

>>6322392
>batman and robin
Fucking shit that game kept me coming back even though im terrible at it.(and still am)

[Anonymous No.6329781]

>>6312670
nes battletoads
some say it's overtalked/overrated but it's still the fucking king (despite being mostly a memorizing game than a real challenge)

[Anonymous No.6329878]

>>6313234
Agreed. As someone with the spergers, I never knew why people think bullet hells/SHMUPs are so hard.

[Anonymous No.6330609]

>>6313227
What game is that?

[Anonymous No.6330615]

>>6330609
Einhänder. It's not hard by any reach. You can easily beat ANY boss using Grenade.

[Anonymous No.6330621]

Probably some hardass arcade game, assuming you 1cc it rather than credit feed.

[Anonymous No.6330626]

>>6312670
Indiana jones and the temple of doom or super Street fighter 2010.

[Anonymous No.6330630]

I.V.A.N.

No question, not even close.

[Anonymous No.6330636]

[Anonymous No.6330685]

>>6322392
UN Squadron is very easy compared to most other shmups.

[Anonymous No.6330693]

>>6312670
Kabuki Quantum Fighter is pretty brutal.

>>6325362
La Mulana's difficulty is mostly in that it's not obvious what you just did, hence why the sequel plays so much smoother.

[Anonymous No.6330698]

>>6325380
You have my attention. I'm really bad at Zachtronics games but I can really appreciate them.

[Anonymous No.6330706]

>>6322358

That's not THAT hard... I got to Shredder once as an impatient child, and if I'd stuck with it a while longer then I surely would have reached him again and beaten him. Most of the hardest parts stop being hard once you know how they work; only the Technodrome interior is tough if you're a decent and persistent player. I think Battletoads is harder, among NES games.

[Anonymous No.6330718]

>>6330630

Is that old enough for this board?

[Anonymous No.6330758]

>>6330718
In runs in Windows 9x so by the rules yeah.

[Anonymous No.6331670]

>>6312670
FF 3.

[Anonymous No.6331676]

>>6323594
The one.

[Anonymous No.6332698]

>>6329047
>Wizardry 4
>not hard
What is hard then?

[Anonymous No.6332724]

>>6332698
Shmups. You can't trivialize them just by using a strategy guide or watching someone play them.

Objectively it's DDP DOJ white label. years of practice required to get a somewhat decent score. And just clearing two loops is harder than every non shmup mentioned in this thread , combined. Came out on the pgm arcade board which dates to 1997
/thread

[Anonymous No.6333728]

>>6312670
Gradius III Arcade

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-ZsccDpKPM

[Anonymous No.6333961]

>>6312670
The first thing that come sto mind for me are Opera Soft games: Goody, Livingstone, Last mission.
I never managed to beat any of them.

[Anonymous No.6333992]

>>6332724
That's still not anywhere near IVAN

[Anonymous No.6333995]

>>6332724
>A game is only hard if you can't cheat to beat it
Are you literally retarded?

[Anonymous No.6334408]

>>6312670
Perfect Hatred on Ultraviolence or Nightmare. What the fuck was Romero thinking? I started going through all of the id engine expansions (Thy Flesh Consumed, Plutonia, TNT, might as well do Sigil, No Rest and 64 while at it, Shadows of the Serpent Riders and finally Deathkings of the Dark Citadel) because they all seemed ballbusting hard when I first played through the originals. Deathkings might be the only one I'm actually going to drop, even if Hexen is my favourite of the bunch simply because Sump is such a shit level. It's nothing but Slaughtaurs and Stalkers that keep respawning and shoot at me from every direction while the ones in front of me block me and fuuuuuck
So basically id expansions

[Anonymous No.6334415]

>>6322358
I beat that when I was 10yo, and wasn't even that good at games

[Anonymous No.6335289]

>>6331670
FF 3 isn't even the hardest FF. That would either be 2, 4 on the DS or 8.

[Anonymous No.6335379]

>>6335289
8 is piss easy.

[Anonymous No.6335414]

>>6335289
8? You can grow up to lvl 99 but the enemies will be lvl ~75 max.

The game is even more broken once you know how to farm cards on disc one, and that enemies scale based on Squall lvl, so as long as you keep him dead the game is really really easy.

[Anonymous No.6335437]

>>6312670
ironsword

[Anonymous No.6335451]

>>6333995
>watch the game
>cheat
Lol
Only rpgs consider it cheating to simply watch someone play or read about the game.

[Anonymous No.6335453]

>>6332724
>You can't trivialize them just by using a strategy guide or watching someone play them.
You can't do that with Wizardry 4 either. Go back to crying over you're dead genre, you're fucking terrible at trying to convince people to play them.

[Anonymous No.6335470]

>>6335451
I've seen people in shmup threads get crusty over players learning by watching runs.

[Anonymous No.6335531]

>>6335470
No, you probably misunderstood the point being made.

[Anonymous No.6335646]

>>6335531
Okay what do you think they meant?

[Anonymous No.6335801]

>>6335646
the copy-monkey meme and its derivatives are just jokes

[Anonymous No.6335824]

>>6335453
>You can't do that with Wizardry 4 either.
Of course you can, that's how most people beat the game.

>convince people to play shmups
OP asked what is the hardest retro game. Someone might nitpick which shmup is the hardest, but the one I mentioned is easily considered top 3.

[Anonymous No.6335829]

>>6335801
I guess shmupfans really are such ragenaughts that even when they try to make a joke it still just sounds like bitching lol

[Anonymous No.6336674]

>>6335824
Still not in the same ballpark as IVAN.

[Anonymous No.6336716]

>>6336674
that's just a roguelike...meaning a lot of blind luck and a lot of cheesing to win, for example, its been awhile but a fairly easy way to get strong is find some wands of mirroring/cloning and scrolls of change material.... Copy the change material scrolls, and then change your arms and legs to phoenix feather. etc.
There's no execution skill required, just plan carefully and hope for RNG luck.

Something like DOJ WL (2-ALL) is 1000x more difficult because it takes even more planning, tons of memorization and actual execution skill to finesse the movements correctly, on top of that it also has deadly RNG as well.

Example, final stage and boss:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ennDITLDaGE

[Anonymous No.6336734]

>>6336716
Winning at rouguelikes is FAR more than blind luck. It's knowing how to work around and deal with the random elements it gives you. Not using spoilers even Nethack is extremely difficult and most who play now do jump in with all those and still take many attempts before they win.

The best player however has a 33 game winstreak which is how one actually tests roguelike skill, not just doing one off wins. At that I would say even nethack is harder to do a two or more ascension runs than second looping DDP DOJ, but there is room for debate there though.

Not so with IVAN which makes Nerhack look like a walk in the park. You can disagree that you don't like the kind if challenge it presents to the player, but there isn't a harder to win retro game out there.

[Anonymous No.6336741]

>>6336734
>nethack is harder to do a two or more ascension runs than second looping DDP DOJ
Is it possible to be any more wrong? Nethack difficulty is a joke, even after the Elbereth nerf. But I'm certain you can't even 1-ALL DDP:DOJ, and you never will. Roguelike difficulty is mostly a question of how much tedium you're willing to endure. 99.9% of deaths are self-inflicted because you refused to do the boring-but-optimal thing. IVAN is an outlier because of heavy RNG-dependence, but it's still not even close to DDP:DOJ.

[Anonymous No.6336747]

>>6336734
The question isn't if IVAN is difficult in some ways, roguelikes are a little bit difficult sure, you need some basic game knowledge and have a plan of progression, the question was comparative difficulty. You aren't comparing it to the game I mentioned, so you're not saying anything relevant to make your case....

have you beaten DOJ? Do you understand what it takes to beat the game fully?

>The best player however has a 33 game winstreak
When comparing difficulty we shouldn't think about crazy "feats" because then difficulty all blends together, even very easy and stupid games can offer crazy "feats" or personal challenges.

It's better to compare 'average players' how long it would take them to beat the game once or twice...

[Anonymous No.6336812]

>>6336747
I am comparing difficulty, that's the whole point of this.

[Anonymous No.6336831]

>>6336812
what shmups have you cleared?

[Anonymous No.6336879]

>>6336831
*crickets*

[Anonymous No.6336946]

>>6336831
goddamn. this board is shit now. i miss 2013

[Anonymous No.6337281]

>>6336741
it's also worth mentioning that you can take a break from roguelike games at any point. you can just take a breather and think about what to do next. non shmup players get too caught up on the concept of "just avoid the dots bro" and don't realise those same situations of decision making and minimising risk exist in shooters too, except you need to make those decisions in a fraction of a second. gunbird 2 second loop gets insane because of this. there's a ton of RNG and the bullets are faster than a lot of other manic shooters so simple memorisation doesn't work

[Anonymous No.6337635]

No one has posted the winner?? Fuggin hardest game ever conceived!

[Anonymous No.6337639]

>>6312670
Nethack.

[Anonymous No.6338112]

>>6337639
Definitely not.

[Anonymous No.6338134]

>>6322358
As a kid the dam and everything past that was painful, but replaying it as an adult it's really only the last couple stages that are a big threat. The Technodrome is brutal, especially without scrolls.

[Anonymous No.6338159]

>>6335470
Those people post in shmup threads but they aren't players, they're a pretty unique brand of retard that's very common among retro gaming communities for some reason. They're the type of people who desperately look for any reason to dismiss the accomplishments of others while justifying their own lack of skill and unwillingness to learn/utilize available tools. Usually these kinds of people are /vr/ natives. Unless you mean the copy monkey meme, that's just a joke.

[Anonymous No.6338185]

>>6336734
Shmups in general are infamously difficult to get consistent at, only the absolute best of the best players will get to a point where 2-ALL's are anything but a fluke that they won't be able to replicate for a very long time. At a higher level the games are FAR too difficult for those kinds of long winstreaks, that's the kind of shit only AI can pull off.

[Anonymous No.6338193]

NES Ghost N Goblins. The Famicom version is I Wanna Be the Guy levels of hard since continues were only added in the US release.

[Anonymous No.6338204]

NES Ghost N Goblins. The Famicom version is harder since Continues are locked behind a hidden code.

[Anonymous No.6339301]

>>6335437
Ironsword?

[Anonymous No.6339652]

>>6339301
Not even as hard as Wizards & Warriors 3 with all of its bullshit class trials and fetch quests. Ironquest is short, too, so you can blitz through it with a little practice. The final boss is a pain in the ass who steals away your extra lives, though.

[Anonymous No.6341345]

>>6335824
>Of course you can, that's how most people beat the game.
That's how you can beat any game.

[Anonymous No.6341448]

>>6341345
Strategy guides don't do much for actually hard games, like shmups.

[Anonymous No.6342553]

>>6328948
Oh, I forgot about this.

[Anonymous No.6342610]

>>6330621
Drauga which OP mentioned is basically unbeatable even with credit feeding if you don't know every bullshit secret.

[Anonymous No.6342616]

>>6325247
I think it's more electronic engineering

[Anonymous No.6342621]

>>6338185
this, the RNG aspect of aimed suicide bullets are brutal, and can't simply be solved with memorisation. You need insane reflexes, forward planning on knowing exactly what's coming and the ability to think two waves of enemies ahead and risk assess on baiting aimed shots at specific areas to leave other places free for non aimed bullet spreads, they get crazy. on top of all that you eventually need to play for score and take extra risks to keep your multiplier going.

[Anonymous No.6343901]

>>6342616
God, I hate engineering.

[Anonymous No.6343940]

>>6312670
These threads always go nowhere because people just repost popular games as "the hardest ever"

The hardest games aren't very creative and you have to research each gen carefully to find the ones with disgusting difficulty.

Examples:
Star Force NES (US)
To the Earth NES

[Anonymous No.6344891]

>>6333961
>Opera Soft

[Anonymous No.6346364]

>>6312670
Touhou.

[Anonymous No.6347302]

The Silver Surfer.